HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

Aw bollix, will you cut it out? 
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist.
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...

It makes perfect sense.
If you're not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don't continue the discussion and waste my time any further
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist

<yawn>
Would you please go away...

Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh

[Angelo]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

[Snapchap]

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it's a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it's one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.

I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.

[seafoid]

There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?

50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

You could have a World Series of Border Polls

Best of 7 for the right to rule the wee six

Maybe you could even make it like a World Snooker final and make it best of 35 polls

Politics in NI could just become an endless series of border polls and SF and the DUP could forget all about any real issues

Actually they've already done that - so they might as well do it for the entertainment

Michelle O'Neill could do that triumphant Dennis Taylor finger wag when the united Ireland side wins 18-17 - like in that 1985 final, it could all come down to winning the (people of) colours

The rules would have to be clear

Best of 5
Live on Sky
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[dublin7]

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it's a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it's one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.

I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.

Political parties in the south can only plan for a united Ireland if all the political parties both north and south work together to come to an agreement. At the moment the two main political parties in the north won't work together and they shut down the assembly for over a year rather than come to an agreement.

I don't think a border boll is even a remote possibility at the moment and it's just political grandstanding by SF calling for one

[johnnycool]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

Then forget about a UI for another generation. It's not a god given right either BTW.

Loyalists/Unionists by the fact that its their MO won't want a UI but they're in a minority in NI now so if those of us that want a UI don't win over these people by listening, understand and addressing their fears then we won't get one.

It's that simple.

[Rossfan]

The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.
Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.
Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".

[sid waddell]

You can't say a vote of 50% +1 = united Ireland - end of - and simultaneously talk about planning

The two are contradictory

"Planning" would effectively mean you would have to have a defined treaty spelling out the exact terms of a united Ireland ready to go in the event of a Yes vote - and that's against the Good Friday Agreement

Isn't it?

What?

To learn the lessons from Brexit, it's not that it won by a simple majority was the issue. It was the people had differing opinions on what post Brexit UK would look like and ultimately people voted for a ideal rather than a reality.

Before a UI referendum should happen the planning phase needs to happen as to what form that UI would take. How would health, education, elections, governance be impacted and what is the future state. So on and so forth

It isn't rocket science nor contradictory.

But surely that's against the Good Friday Agreement

How can you negotiate a treaty about a state that doesn't exist

There were and could be no negotiations over Brexit until Brexit had been voted for

Because Brexit didn't exist until it was voted for

Also, if any united Ireland being voted on would be defined in small print before a vote, it would be rejected

And you're never going to get a pre-vote agreement anyway on what a united Ireland would mean in practice, too many people disagree

The only way a united Ireland would be voted for is if it's voted on blind, like Brexit - with the negotiations on what exactly it is to follow afterwards

The only planning you can do is to get the UK government to set out the exact criteria for when a border poll would be called - and the criteria could only be determined by designating a certain threshold for pro-united Ireland sentiment in approved opinion polling

[Snapchap]

Political parties in the south can only plan for a united Ireland if all the political parties both north and south work together to come to an agreement. At the moment the two main political parties in the north won't work together and they shut down the assembly for over a year rather than come to an agreement.

That's just, yet again, ignoring the reality. Are you seriously suggesting that unionists are going to sit down to plan for how to bring about the political change they are most opposed to? Of course they wont. No more than SF supporters are ever going to sit down with the British Government and help draw up a plan for never getting a united Ireland. Pie in the sky waffle. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas and it's insulting to them to expect them to. A border poll will be swung by the middle ground. That middle ground will only back it if they believe it constitutes a big enough effort to include those who will lose out in the referendum.

I don't think a border boll is even a remote possibility at the moment and it's just political grandstanding by SF calling for one

Of course it's not a possibility at the moment, but if a week is a long time in politics, then what's a decade? It's not long ago that I and others like me had to make sure we added about an hour onto any car journey we went on because of the likelihood of armed police and/or soldiers harassing us on the sides of the roads. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, compare that to today where we essentially have an economic united Ireland which can only lead to increased political convergence, and where we are witnessing demographic changes that show a Catholic/nationalist population which is younger and growing much more rapidly than the Protestant/unionist population. You can willfully ignore that reality all you like, but it remains the reality. A border poll will happen relatively soon.

[Lar Naparka]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

Aw bollix, will you cut it out? 
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist.
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...

It makes perfect sense.
If you're not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don't continue the discussion and waste my time any further
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist

<yawn>
Would you please go away...

Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh

Where did I say that???
No.To hell with you.

[Armagh18]

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it's a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it's one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.

I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

And every other party is a disgrace for not doing so!

[Applesisapples]

The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.
Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.
Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".

You've made some good points, but I resent you calling me a Nordie.

[Snapchap]

The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.

Who has said there should be a "border poll now" on the board?

Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.

Of course those in the south get a vote. Funny you don't regard as "extremist" those who are arguing that 50%+1 in the north should not be a sufficient majority - a position which runs contrary to the GFA.

Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".

As I said above, what's the point in SF alone producing a paper? Do you think other parties would engage constructively with it, or use it for political point scoring? Which do you think the middle ground would take heed of: a plan produced with the involvement of the Irish Government and the SDLP, or one just produced by SF? If FFG have the courage of their convictions, then let them act constructively. A border poll is inevitable in the relatively short terms future. For the government parties of the south to refuse to prepare for it is an abdication of duty.

[Applesisapples]

I favour a UI, but with conditions as I've outlined. It serves no purpose to denigrate people in the ROI who look north and think we don't want any of that. If you want a UI then you need to ensure that as many concerns of the various parties can be addressed as possible. It is most certainly the case that a 32 county socialist republic will not happen. Initial iterations of Unity will likely be federal and still have a big British link. Insulting unionists and citizens south of the border is not helpful.

[Rossfan]

SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.
Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.
As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.

Edit - very sensible post by Apples.