HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

Started by RedHand88, March 20, 2021, 02:56:58 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Would you back unity if a border poll was held tomorrow?

Yes (Northerner)
No (Northerner)
Yes (Southener)
No (Southener)

sid waddell

Germany had the Schlieffen plan in World War I

Sinn Fein will have the Schleeveen plan



seafoid

Quote from: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

sid waddell

Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
You could have a World Series of Border Polls

Best of 7 for the right to rule the wee six

Maybe you could even make it like a World Snooker final and make it best of 35 polls

Politics in NI could just become an endless series of border polls and SF and the DUP could forget all about any real issues

Actually they've already done that - so they might as well do it for the entertainment

Michelle O'Neill could do that triumphant Dennis Taylor finger wag when the united Ireland side wins 18-17 - like in that 1985 final, it could all come down to winning the (people of) colours

Snapchap

Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

You might not think it suitable but its what is in the GFA which was overwhelmingly endorsed across Ireland. So you are opposed to the GFA, and advocate a unionist veto? Cos unionist vetos have always been a good thing havent they?  ::)

sid waddell

We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?

general_lee

Quote from: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?
You'd need to ask Unionists about that.

Oh no wait that's right, Unionists won't even talk about the first one never mind another one!

Louther

I see the DUP pulling the Irish Language Act (again) as protest against the Northern Ireland protocol.

So they look to inflict punishment on their own rather than Boris or anyone across the water cause it's all they know.

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

sid waddell

As part of the new United Ireland treaty, Ulster Scots is made first official language, a bridge to Scotland is built, and the Dublin government pays for Belfast to once again start making ocean going luxury cruise liners

But disaster strikes with the launch of the Titanic 2

She's too tall to fit under the bridge, and knocks the bridge into the sea, before sinking herself

The entire party membership of the DUP is on board and goes down beneath the icy waves off Belfast Lough

Utopia awaits

johnnycool

Quote from: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?

Unionism in their arrogance never asked for subsequent border bolls if they lost any of them.

The GFA is majority plus 1.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 01:27:28 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 01:15:49 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 12:36:40 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 12:04:10 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 10:23:28 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 08:41:44 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 06:49:32 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 03:14:49 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 07:19:00 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 02:10:06 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 20, 2021, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on March 20, 2021, 06:33:27 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you're not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don't continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
<yawn>
Would you please go away...
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Snapchap

Quote from: Louther on March 22, 2021, 09:38:00 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

Itchy

Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

Why would there be a round 2? Once Ireland is united following the 1st border poll then future decisions taken will be a 32 county matter. Unionists would be represented in the Dail and would be a powerful enough block there to get concessions on things important to them. Democracy is 50% + 1. Its funny how when united Ireland gets close we get the experts tell us that this is not sufficient.

sid waddell

Quote from: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 09:48:29 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?

Unionism in their arrogance never asked for subsequent border bolls if they lost any of them.

The GFA is majority plus 1.
It would be covered by a future treaty


sid waddell

Quote from: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

Why would there be a round 2? Once Ireland is united following the 1st border poll then future decisions taken will be a 32 county matter. Unionists would be represented in the Dail and would be a powerful enough block there to get concessions on things important to them. Democracy is 50% + 1. Its funny how when united Ireland gets close we get the experts tell us that this is not sufficient.
There's nothing to say a united Ireland is close

It's highly unlikely anybody here will live to see one