HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[Angelo]

I think it's worth putting this article up again.



The economic debate is seperate but lets call out the bigots who are using unionism as a bogeyman to deflect from this. The same bigots have little to say when unionists discriminate against Irish culture and Catholicism in the O6 are the same ones rolling out unionist fears to avoid talking about it.

[Milltown Row2]

If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations

What's another 30 years of violence, maybe if we had have stuck to our guns (no pun) back in the 20's we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Lar Naparka]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

[Lar Naparka]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

[Lar Naparka]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

Aw bollix, will you cut it out? 
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist.
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

Aw bollix, will you cut it out? 
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist.
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...

It makes perfect sense.
If you're not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don't continue the discussion and waste my time any further
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist

[general_lee]

Just a point of reference: outside of London, ALL statistical regions of the UK, with the exception of two, carry an annual fiscal deficit. NI has been doing so annually since 1966.

I don't think any right-minded Republican is proposing unification to take place overnight, but Lar does make a good point that SF need to provide a detailed plan of how exactly it will take place. Not some 30 page summary of economic aspirations. Quite why he has singled SF out though I am not sure - there are other pro-unity parties that surely should have their skates on?

The SNP commissioned a 650 page paper on "Scotland's Future", perhaps SF are waiting until they are in government north and south before replicating something similar? Who knows. Perhaps a cross-party initiative could be formed to examine the real possibility of getting the ball rolling? We cant pussyfoot around Unionists forever.

[Snapchap]

If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?

If a border poll was not passed has anyone in FFG considered what effect it will have on Nationalists? Do you care? If your blueshirted darlings really cared about unionism they would organise in the north instead of just using it for political point scoring. Or at the very least, they could have supported Ian Marshall for a seat in the Seanad. A lot of people in the south use the spectre of loyalist violence as a bogeyman to reject talk of a border poll/reunification. Pity they weren't half, or even a quarter as concerned during the times when loyalists actually were most active in killing Irish people in the north.

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations

Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?

[dublin7]

If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?

If a border poll was not passed has anyone in FFG considered what effect it will have on Nationalists? Do you care? If your blueshirted darlings really cared about unionism they would organise in the north instead of just using it for political point scoring. Or at the very least, they could have supported Ian Marshall for a seat in the Seanad. A lot of people in the south use the spectre of loyalist violence as a bogeyman to reject talk of a border poll/reunification. Pity they weren't half, or even a quarter as concerned during the times when loyalists actually were most active in killing Irish people in the north.

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations

Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?

FF/FG have no interest in calling for a border poll and have never claimed to. It's SF who are demanding this so I assumed they have policies to go with this sound it's.

I realise you don't care what happens to Unionists if we end up with a united Ireland, but they are real people with real jobs and real homes. Why should all the public sector employees vote themselves out of a job for a flag?

[Milltown Row2]

The reality (for me) is convincing all the benefits users that losing or possibility of losing their DLA/PIPs housing welfare and other benefits will not be the case.

Public sector jobs are way to much but a proportion of those jobs will still be required, so for me that's not an issue.

Be rest assured that there will be 'republicans' and 'nationalist' looking to preserve there lifestyles and that's the key area for this poll debate.

In the short term these benefits should be covered by the uk government for a period of transition but that won't last long.

This poll is too early if done in next 3/4 years. The damage and fall out of brexit needs sorting first.

[Snapchap]

FF/FG have no interest in calling for a border poll and have never claimed to. It's SF who are demanding this so I assumed they have policies to go with this sound it's.

FG have no interest in holding one tomorrow. But the point you are at pains to avoid is that neither do SF. But as the self proclaimed 'United Ireland', FG at least like to pretend that they are pro-Irish Unity and such an aspiration cannot happen without a border poll. Demographic trends indicate that such a poll will happen relatively soon. Shouldn't FG attempt to be prepared for that eventuality?

I realise you don't care what happens to Unionists if we end up with a united Ireland, but they are real people with real jobs and real homes. Why should all the public sector employees vote themselves out of a job for a flag?

I realise you don't now, and never have, cared for nationalists in the north, but we are real people with real jobs and real homes. And we understand that partition has caused economic havoc in the north for absolutely everybody. I also realise that you don't actually care aboit unionists either. They are just useful to hold up as an excuse for your opposition to any mention of conatitutional change. You didn't answer my question(s):
Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?

[Tubberman]

There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and using terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

[Snapchap]

There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?