The Haas Talks

[never kickt a ball]

So, no agreement with the talks Haas holds 

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/haass.pdf

[JUst retired]

 Did any sane person expect any agreement in these talks? The nationalists parties seem to be willing to compromise,as do the Alliance. But the rest-no chance. The Irish and British governments should take the bull by the horns and impose their collective will on the place.
Will we ever see the agenda or agendas that were debated?
I dont think so. Treat us like mushrooms Keep us in the dark and feed us sh*te.

[seafoid]

There must be a serious Unionist brain drain going on in the background. In the old days the educated ones were able to put smacht on their brethren. "No no no" is a poor old negotiating tactic as well.

[orangeman]

Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?

[seafoid]

Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?

I think the flegs are a sign of a fairly serious identity crisis. Politicians can do stuff like roads and hospitals but identity is much harder.

[orangeman]

Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?

I think the flegs are a sign of a fairly serious identity crisis. Politicians can do stuff like roads and hospitals but identity is much harder.

Yes and the cajoling and encouragement by successive American and other governments have still not changed the unionist view on flegs and parades.

Looking at the Haas document that has been published there's some blah blah blah in it.

[lawnseed]

the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substancially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffitti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.

[armaghniac]

You'd need some definition of a flag, otherwise GAA type decorations would be illegal when someone reaches an AI etc. Likewise it should be possible to decorate for the Giro.

[lawnseed]

You'd need some definition of a flag, otherwise GAA type decorations would be illegal when someone reaches an AI etc. Likewise it should be possible to decorate for the Giro.

from your "own" property all flags are legal for limited periods eg Armagh flags from the start of the championship until its over
in countrys like Denmark Germany homeowners have a proper flag pole outside their house. I would have no objection to this provided its time limited.

what I'm saying is the plastering of housing estates is unsightly and may not be what all residents want therefore unless you actually own the property you cannot erect a flag/any flag ie the council official flag pole in your area should be enough

telephone poles trees pylons.. all illegal at any time

[armaghniac]

I still think sporting emblems need to be distinguished from political ones, at the season of the sporting event.

[Myles Na G.]

the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substancially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffitti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.

So you're recommending making the Housing Executive / Housing Associations / private landlords responsible for removing any flags that are flown by tenants on their properties? They'll not thank you for that. Keep in mind that the encampment on Twaddell Avenue is on Housing Executive land without the permission of the HE. If that organisation can't remove an illegal camp, how do you expect them to deal with the thousands of flags that go up on their houses every year? Keep in mind too that the man in charge of the Housing Executive is one Nelson McCausland. Can you really see him allowing the HE to take a robust stance against flags flying from houses?

[Applesisapples]

The DUP are having problems coming to terms with an impending unionist minority and the resultant taking over of OWC by a broad nationalist majority. This won't necessarily see the demise of the union, but a nationalist first minister and Finance minister is a nightmare scenario for them.

[JUst retired]

 Lawnseed,you should have been at the talks .Your sugestions are the most sensible I have seen yet.

[lawnseed]

the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substantially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffiti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.

So you're recommending making the Housing Executive / Housing Associations / private landlords responsible for removing any flags that are flown by tenants on their properties? They'll not thank you for that. Keep in mind that the encampment on Twaddell Avenue is on Housing Executive land without the permission of the HE. If that organisation can't remove an illegal camp, how do you expect them to deal with the thousands of flags that go up on their houses every year? Keep in mind too that the man in charge of the Housing Executive is one Nelson McCausland. Can you really see him allowing the HE to take a robust stance against flags flying from houses?

yes and yes. the prohibition of the flying of flags can be a clause written into the rental agreement by law. "cant remove an illegal camp"?? what do you mean cant? how did the English police deal with the traveller camp in the south of England.. they did it because they were ordered to do it. as regards nelson as I said this should be a law passed by London end of.

the point behind my suggestion is that it is easy to sneak down the road in the dark or put on a mask and litter the place with flags.. paramilitary flags.. offensive flags.. but it is unlikely that anyone would hang a eg uvf flag on their OWN property. there needs to be times allotted to flag flying a sort of 'flag season' outside that period unless by special official agreement/permission its illegal

[orangeman]

Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.