Garth Brooks and Croke Park : Boss to intervene?

Started by armaghniac, January 20, 2014, 01:13:53 PM

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David McKeown

Quote from: LeoMc on July 16, 2014, 11:28:44 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 16, 2014, 07:09:20 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 16, 2014, 07:00:08 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 16, 2014, 06:15:59 PM
My issue with the decision maker being unelected or appointed is that ultimately he seems unaccountable particularly given that no appeal is permissible against the merits of the decision.  Somehow that needs to change regardless of the decision made.
Not that much different to what is currently the case in the north (though there is an appeals system, the PAC), where the only politician with any real power in such matters is the Stormont Minister for Environment (though apparently the OFMDFM can also make overriding decisions). Local councillors only have a consultation role, like referring potentially refused applications back for further review. When the new councils come into force in April, these new councils will be responsible for drawing up local development plans so they will have more of a say in the development of their areas - but the day to day decision making on applications will still be made by civil servants using criteria set by the local council. The councillors themselves will still not be able to unilaterally overturn a decision. It's the best compromise IMO as it gives elected representatives accountability on planning without giving them too much to discriminate and get backhanders from. As for Keegan's accountability, surely if the councillors on the DCC felt that he was not fit for his job, they could dismiss him, no?

Quote from: David McKeown on July 16, 2014, 06:15:59 PMI also don't get the accusation against brooks of being greedy. Surely if he was being greedy he'd have done the three shows or the matinees and said to hell with the fans. At the time of booking anyone would have jumped at a chance to make more money from more concerts if they were led to believe there'd be no issue.
I suppose it reminds of something like this...

http://youtu.be/90HhZ-pyC2Y

As for the issue of putting on more concerts after the initial two then three sold out, you would have to had your head buried in the sand if some major issues were not foreseen. Obviously assumptions as to the licensing of the gigs before any firm decision was made, it seems to me that the old Celtic Tiger nod & wink just didn't work this time. Some would say about time this was tackled, just a shame about the event which has been affected because of it. It's a mess in the short term, but I reckon things will be better beyond it as such things will now need to be better co-ordinated from both ends.



I wouldn't have thought he could be dismissed for unpopular decision making not with current employment regulations .  The issue of appeals I raised is separate to the issue of the decision makers accountability to a degree. I'm saying when you don't have any avenue of appeal on the merits of a decision then that decision maker has to be in someway accountable to someone. If you have any appeals process that becomes less of an issue. I'm not saying such an appeal need lie to elected representatives particularly if they are unqualified.

On a related note I'm struggling to see why an uncontested JR is needed. Surely if there is sufficient merit to a JR a full emergency hearing could take place. If there is not I would be surprised if the court would accede to an unmeritorious application for political expediency.

I would assume a JR could only reverse the decision if it were legally or technically incorrect. If the decision was not legally or technically incorrect the JR would have to find for DCC. Therefore the only way the JR could find against the DCC would be if they did not defend themselves, granting the appellant a technical "walk over"

Any JR would only succeed if it had merit. That is there was a ground for JR. The lack of opposition to a JR would not get over that hurdle that's why I am surprised on Aiken requiring an uncontested JR
2022 Allianz League Prediction Competition Winner

moysider

Quote from: Aaron Boone on July 16, 2014, 11:40:34 PM
That's a wrap. A final wrap.

No 11th hour deal.

No deal. But not a rap either.

There s huge issues still to be resolved.

One thing that is very obvious. Croke Park is in the wrong place ( again I ll repeat that location should never have been developed). Former director Mulvihill had reservations but allowed the nostalgists to have their way. He must be cringing now. It was an awful call. It has been a disaster. Basically the biggest initiative/investment by the GAA is effectively locked down for events.
The venue is a disaster as regards accessibity. It s already begining to age to an extent but in 20 years no effort has been made to make gettting there easier. There s a railway behind Hill16 and no station ffs.


Any relations between Croke Park/Dublin CC are now fucked up for good and it appears they were not good at any time anyway. Then there is the obvious Dublin/Culchie divide. It s an anomaly anyway to have this facility in a place where it is.
Geographically wrong. Culturally and sportingly wrong as well. And it is obviously resented there too.

THE MIGHTY QUINN

I drove past the Garth Brooks Boulevard in Oklahama City this morning. I made sure I kept my mouth shut.  Chances are any man going down that street with an Irish accent could get his head kicked in

moysider

Quote from: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 17, 2014, 01:25:36 AM
I drove past the Garth Brooks Boulevard in Oklahama City this morning. I made sure I kept my mouth shut.  Chances are any man going down that street with an Irish accent could get his head kicked in

I doubt it.

Gaffer

Quote from: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 17, 2014, 01:25:36 AM
I drove past the Garth Brooks Boulevard in Oklahama City this morning. I made sure I kept my mouth shut.  Chances are any man going down that street with an Irish accent could get his head kicked in

' head kicked in '.........  A real 80s spake!!!!
"Well ! Well ! Well !  If it ain't the Smoker !!!"

haranguerer

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 16, 2014, 05:38:37 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 16, 2014, 12:47:24 PMCan I just ask, why did Brooks ever stop playing his local bars? Why did Aiken move on from shows in parish halls? Why do I, and presumably you, work longer hours to earn more money than we need to survive?

I hate people talking absolute shit about 'greed'. Wake up, this is the world we live in, and if thats how you define greed, then we're all greedy.
The first bit is a strawman - no one here that I see has suggested that it is wrong for Brooks to have moved from playing in his local bar to playing in residence at Vegas, nor for the case with Aiken promotions. Nor has anyone questioned the ethics of working for anything more than a subsistence living.

What is being questioned is how the GAA, Aiken promotions and Brooks himself is involved in making money through these concerts as to how they pass the externalities they generate through this on to others. Although not exactly a business transaction, the 11th night bonfires in many parts of Belfast in response to celebrating their culture (their words, not mine) pass on externalities of environmental damage (repair costs passed on to ratepayers & taxpayers along with possible disruption to other services & businesses) and issues with health to those living nearby & beyond (carcinogens and poisons released into the air hough the burning of used tyres and chemically treated wood) as well as possible anti-social behaviour. In more saner business terms, it is why the likes of planning regulations, zoning and environmental laws are put into place. In the case of these planned concerts, the externalities being passed on here affect the quality of life living in the vicinity of Croke Park - and this is where the talk of "greed" comes in. "Greed" here is what some people regard as an excessive passing on of externalities without engaging in the right communication channels.

Most outdoor events which can have a significant impact on the local area (e.g. noise pollution, litter, traffic, surface damage) usually sees organisers, local authorities and local residents come to agreements and sometimes compromises over what is involved so that all involved are happy. If this breaks down though then it's up to whoever allows the event to go ahead to make the final call. The major problem with Croke Park is that it sits in a major residential area with limited public transport links, no large on-site car parking facilities and (AFAIK) no dedicated park & ride schemes. In terms of urban planning, that doesn't look great to me.

I don't believe that this kind of "greed" is part of the world we live in, rather it is part of the cute hoor seeking short-term get-rich-quick ideas that is prevalent in much of Irish society and of a similar mindset in other parts of the world (e.g. air quality in Bejing and historically in Los Angeles). But in most parts of Europe plans and developments are often made which see issues like what has been seen in this case happen not terribly often. For example Switzerland can be described as a very business friendly country but they don't let their environment get arse raped in attracting foreign investment, not to mention scoring highly in quality-of-life polls. A similar stance goes for Nordic countries who rank among the top countries in the world for ease of business even allowing for high income tax rates. As for me? Well I just don't consider myself the Gordon Gecko type as I don't think I'd ever be content with myself otherwise. I just see that unrestricted greed leads to an eventual 'tragedy of the commons'.

The point is that we can call greed at any point in any business transaction - strangely enough, usually its called in retrospect, and said to have occurred at the exact point it goes wrong. Something goes tits up, 'greed' is decried, and everyone nods knowingly.

What you've said is largley irrelevant in terms of the GB shows. 

haranguerer

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 16, 2014, 07:00:08 PM
As for the issue of putting on more concerts after the initial two then three sold out, you would have to had your head buried in the sand if some major issues were not foreseen. Obviously assumptions as to the licensing of the gigs before any firm decision was made, it seems to me that the old Celtic Tiger nod & wink just didn't work this time. Some would say about time this was tackled, just a shame about the event which has been affected because of it. It's a mess in the short term, but I reckon things will be better beyond it as such things will now need to be better co-ordinated from both ends.

Those same assumptions were made for 1 gig, then 2, etc. 

It'll be a right bit beyond it - I can't see tour organisers queueing up to get into it after this. And when they do, it'll be for a lot less than they would have been expected to pay prior to the fiasco.

thebigfella

Quote from: moysider on July 17, 2014, 01:04:26 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on July 16, 2014, 11:40:34 PM
That's a wrap. A final wrap.

No 11th hour deal.

No deal. But not a rap either.

There s huge issues still to be resolved.

One thing that is very obvious. Croke Park is in the wrong place ( again I ll repeat that location should never have been developed). Former director Mulvihill had reservations but allowed the nostalgists to have their way. He must be cringing now. It was an awful call. It has been a disaster. Basically the biggest initiative/investment by the GAA is effectively locked down for events.
The venue is a disaster as regards accessibity. It s already begining to age to an extent but in 20 years no effort has been made to make gettting there easier. There s a railway behind Hill16 and no station ffs.


Any relations between Croke Park/Dublin CC are now fucked up for good and it appears they were not good at any time anyway. Then there is the obvious Dublin/Culchie divide. It s an anomaly anyway to have this facility in a place where it is.
Geographically wrong. Culturally and sportingly wrong as well. And it is obviously resented there too.

That is some persecution complex you have there  ::) 

The reality is DCC made this decision based on the impact to a residential area; 3 of the performances on a what are categorised work nights was deemed disruptive. It's not them persecuting the poor culchies.

LeoMc

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 15, 2014, 05:09:52 PM
Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: snatter on July 09, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
Most ( if not all ) of the resident v's GAA conflict could be engineered out if the O'Connell schools campus was moved to a new site in the Clonliffe College grounds.

A large plaza could then be created in front of Croker and could be used as the single entry point for the stadium. Croker could then be used a lot more, which is a win win for the whole country and the GAA.

Site:  http://binged.it/1w0RNso

Have a look at the link, specifically the playground areas to get an idea of how a large plaza could be created.

.
how can you relocate a playground?

Has the purchase of ground from Clonliffe college to allow a new school campus to be built ever been costed out. A green field build out of Dublin might be not cost much more.

haranguerer

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 17, 2014, 11:23:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 17, 2014, 08:36:41 AMThe point is that we can call greed at any point in any business transaction
Hold on a second - we've now moved on from saying that anything beyond earning enough to have a subsistence living is greed to saying that greed can occur "...at any point in any business transaction"? You do realise that if a starving homeless man in the street sells a possession to a passer-by in exchange for some food then by that definition that can be called "greed"?

Quote from: haranguerer on July 17, 2014, 08:36:41 AMstrangely enough, usually its called in retrospect, and said to have occurred at the exact point it goes wrong. Something goes tits up, 'greed' is decried, and everyone nods knowingly.
Sometimes it can be called in retrospect, sometimes it's in plain sight. Nearly everyone and their dog knows about the ongoing friction for years of a section of residents in the vicinity of Croke Park and that of representatives of the GAA - it was highlighted pretty damn early in this thread. The retrospective terms are in the practices carried out for this concert that had changed very little from a decade ago which should have taught people valuable lessons (nothing wrong in failing on its own if you learn from it). Communities and societies that have thrived and succeeded have learned on the lessons of themselves, their forefathers and others, for example modern day Germany post WW2 put in measures of its "social market economy" to become the largest net exporter in the world - a lot of its business factored by the memories of hyperinflation in the days of the Weimar Republic.

Quote from: haranguerer on July 17, 2014, 08:36:41 AMWhat you've said is largley irrelevant in terms of the GB shows.
You don't seem to understand what externalities are if what I have previously said is "largely irrelevant".

Of course it can, if he looked too much for it. My point is that pushing for 5 shows is no more greedy than pushing for 3, and no more greedy than expanding into stadia in the first place, and no more greedy than ever stopping performing in bars. If we were all to become successful businessmen, who went bust, no doubt there'd be talk of greed having been our downfall. And this is where my analogy to earning more than necessary to sustain - where is the line? At what point does someone become too greedy? From what I can see, only when they fail, and that can only be identified in retrospect. When alls going well, greed is called ambition.

Of course I understand what you mean by externalities. Its not a hard concept. In terms of the GB shows, the 'externalities' are the same for 3, as they are for 5. 3 isnt greedy, 5 is. Go figure.

balladmaker

I wonder how long it will take for Aiken to give DCC the two fingers and put Brooks into Belfast or somewhere else in the north for a week of open air shows. 

thebigfella

As the main point of contention is the consecutive 5 nights; the fairest thing to do would be to run them over consecutive weekends. Everyone needs to compromise and there still appears to be this 5 or nothing consecutive nights vibe from Aiken/Brooks/GAA.

It is entirely possible the GAA could reschedule the following weekends events to allow the gigs to go ahead.

muppet

Quote from: thebigfella on July 17, 2014, 12:45:07 PM
As the main point of contention is the consecutive 5 nights; the fairest thing to do would be to run them over consecutive weekends. Everyone needs to compromise and there still appears to be this 5 or nothing consecutive nights vibe from Aiken/Brooks/GAA.

It is entirely possible the GAA could reschedule the following weekends events to allow the gigs to go ahead.

The AIF 1/4 finals are played over the 3 days of the Bank Holiday Weekend. There would be uproar if that got reshuffled.
MWWSI 2017

thebigfella

Quote from: muppet on July 17, 2014, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 17, 2014, 12:45:07 PM
As the main point of contention is the consecutive 5 nights; the fairest thing to do would be to run them over consecutive weekends. Everyone needs to compromise and there still appears to be this 5 or nothing consecutive nights vibe from Aiken/Brooks/GAA.

It is entirely possible the GAA could reschedule the following weekends events to allow the gigs to go ahead.

The AIF 1/4 finals are played over the 3 days of the Bank Holiday Weekend. There would be uproar if that got reshuffled.

Yep I know... It's a compromise though and the fairest one for everyone involved. If this is truly the once in a lifetime event they are hyping; surely moving a few fixtures is worth it.

Let the people decide though; sell tickets for both and see who sells the most  :P

Syferus

Quote from: muppet on July 17, 2014, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 17, 2014, 12:45:07 PM
As the main point of contention is the consecutive 5 nights; the fairest thing to do would be to run them over consecutive weekends. Everyone needs to compromise and there still appears to be this 5 or nothing consecutive nights vibe from Aiken/Brooks/GAA.

It is entirely possible the GAA could reschedule the following weekends events to allow the gigs to go ahead.

The AIF 1/4 finals are played over the 3 days of the Bank Holiday Weekend. There would be uproar if that got reshuffled.

They aren't.