Garth Brooks and Croke Park : Boss to intervene?

Started by armaghniac, January 20, 2014, 01:13:53 PM

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ONeill

I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

Rossfan

Now maybe the Politicians can get down to the job they were elected for -running the Country, sorting out the Health system - we spend about the same % as most Countries on our Health System yet we have one of the wprst in Europe.
Abolish the HSE and let the Dept of Health oversee a patient/sick person centred system -we've only 4.6 million population FFS.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

thebigfella

Quote from: muppet on July 15, 2014, 12:17:51 PM
Traditionally the big man would have got his way in Ireland.

That is what McCreevy & Harney meant by 'light touch regulation'. This wouldn't have happened on Bertie's watch, or, God forbid, CJH's.

If your are made of money and have a problem, don't worry, we will bend the law, amend the law or ignore the law, to see you right. That ideology completely screwed us before and is still prevalent.

That for me is the great disappointment of this government. We all know it was the previous one which destroyed the country, but this one has dismantled none of the weapons used in doing it.

All and sundry from Enda to the Shinners tried to 'find a way' which is a euphemism for the above ideology. Fianna Fáil tabled emergency legislation to get around the council ffs!

I am not a killjoy but for once I am delighted to see a process and a ruling upheld, even if it is inconvenient for some important people.

That's it in a nutshell... it kind of annoys me there was even discussions on finding a solution loophole to allow 5 concerts to go ahead. This was a local council decision and subject to planning law. By all this messing around, including tabling emergency legislation; it creates the impression that the process was unfair/incorrect in concluding only to grant licenses for 3. As more and more details leak (especially when you look at it impartially), Aiken and Brooks don't come out of it good at all.

Once the decision was made, the matter should have been closed and left up to Brooks/Aiken to decide how they want to proceed. If they wanted to cancel all, so be it.

People stating only in Ireland could this mess be made are correct. It wouldn't have happened elsewhere as the parties involved would have known better than to try to bypass local planning regulations. Ireland will be just fine without the concerts and if anything our reputation will be enhanced. Just imagine what our EU counterparts would think if we changed the planning laws "just to appease" a wealthy american musician.

snatter

A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.

muppet

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.

So a maximum of 3 then.

Further events require planning.

They got planning for 3 more, but not 5 more.

Is anyone saying any different to that?
MWWSI 2017

ONeill

I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

snatter

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.


FFS, this isn't difficult to understand. There is no maximum.

There is not one regulation anywhere, apart form some of your heads, that says Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of 3 events per year.

Croke Park is automatically allowed 3 events (subject to event management plan ) every year. This was granted as a condition under the original planning permission.

Subsequent legislation allows promoters to apply for as many further Croke Park events as they like, by applying to DCC for what are known as a Public Event Licences.

The reason DCC turned down the events licence wasn't that Croke Park had already had 3 events (under the Planning Permission). Rather, it was the 5 consecutuive days duration they objected to. Afaik, it's the first time anywhere that any council has ever turned down one of these event licence applications. Previously it was regarded as a rubber stamp exercise.

DCC did make it clear that 3 concerts in a row was fine, just not 5. Their judgement (for which no appeal mechanism exists) was purely subjective - nothing in any regulation or guidance states 3 consecutive days as a cut-off point.

Having said that, there's nothing in the current legislation or DCC's precedent to prevent promoters from applying for as many more CP concerts as they like, as long as they are only 3 consecutive days. As things stand right now, they could have three concerts a month, every month of the year, under DCC's new precedent.

Going forward, the best thing the Govt & GAA could do is to move the schools at the canal end, and make a proper plaza, through which all CP users would enter and exit. That's the blindingly obvious solution to all of this resident(or faux-resident) v's GAA conflict.


snatter

#772
Quote from: snatter on July 09, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
Most ( if not all ) of the resident v's GAA conflict could be engineered out if the O'Connell schools campus was moved to a new site in the Clonliffe College grounds.

A large plaza could then be created in front of Croker and could be used as the single entry point for the stadium. Croker could then be used a lot more, which is a win win for the whole country and the GAA.

Site:  http://binged.it/1w0RNso

Have a look at the link, specifically the playground areas to get an idea of how a large plaza could be created.

.

Rossfan

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
The hurly crowd won't be happy  :D
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

93-DY-SAM

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.


FFS, this isn't difficult to understand. There is no maximum.

There is not one regulation anywhere, apart form some of your heads, that says Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of 3 events per year.

Croke Park is automatically allowed 3 events (subject to event management plan ) every year. This was granted as a condition under the original planning permission.

Subsequent legislation allows promoters to apply for as many further Croke Park events as they like, by applying to DCC for what are known as a Public Event Licences.

The reason DCC turned down the events licence wasn't that Croke Park had already had 3 events (under the Planning Permission). Rather, it was the 5 consecutuive days duration they objected to. Afaik, it's the first time anywhere that any council has ever turned down one of these event licence applications. Previously it was regarded as a rubber stamp exercise.

DCC did make it clear that 3 concerts in a row was fine, just not 5. Their judgement (for which no appeal mechanism exists) was purely subjective - nothing in any regulation or guidance states 3 consecutive days as a cut-off point.

Having said that, there's nothing in the current legislation or DCC's precedent to prevent promoters from applying for as many more CP concerts as they like, as long as they are only 3 consecutive days. As things stand right now, they could have three concerts a month, every month of the year, under DCC's new precedent.

Going forward, the best thing the Govt & GAA could do is to move the schools at the canal end, and make a proper plaza, through which all CP users would enter and exit. That's the blindingly obvious solution to all of this resident(or faux-resident) v's GAA conflict.

Am glad someone is bringing a bit of reason to this debate on here.  I'm no fan of Brooks but I can't help but get the feeling there is an element of music snobbery at play here and else where due to the fact he's a Country & Western musician and not a "cool" act.  It doesn't bother me either way that it has been cancelled but the attitude of some that just because he and his music isn't their cup of tea then fu*k everyone else is lousy. 



macdanger2

Quote from: Rossfan on July 15, 2014, 01:22:46 PM
Now maybe the Politicians can get down to the job they were elected for -running the Country, sorting out the Health system - we spend about the same % as most Countries on our Health System yet we have one of the worst in Europe.
Abolish the HSE and let the Dept of Health oversee a patient/sick person centred system -we've only 4.6 million population FFS.

Going completely off track here but what indicators are you basing that on??

I had a look here http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS to check how much we spend on healthcare and we're actually quite a bit below other countries on the 2012 figures:

Ireland       8% (of GDP spent on healthcare)
Norway      9%
UK      9.4%
Sweden      9.6%
NZ      10.3%
Germany      11.3%
France      11.7%

I was thinking about this over the weekend in relation our new minister in the Dept of Health – what would Varadkar need to do to be considered a success? Or is the Dept of Health such an important department whereby any failing directly impacts people's lives so much that it's impossible to be "successful"?? Have any of our previous minister's been a success??

I 100% agree with you that policiticans should be focussing on the real problems in the country rather than a concert.

macdanger2

You're right, it is an opportunity wasted. And the government should make sure that the planning laws are updated in whatever way is needed to make sure this type of confusion doesn't happen again.

They shouldn't be getting involved in circumventing those laws however inconvenient they may be at this particular time


laoislad

Quote
Am glad someone is bringing a bit of reason to this debate on here.  I'm no fan of Brooks but I can't help but get the feeling there is an element of music snobbery at play here and else where due to the fact he's a Country & Western musician and not a "cool" act.  It doesn't bother me either way that it has been cancelled but the attitude of some that just because he and his music isn't their cup of tea then f**k everyone else is lousy. 

+1
When you think you're fucked you're only about 40% fucked.

manfromdelmonte

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: snatter on July 09, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
Most ( if not all ) of the resident v's GAA conflict could be engineered out if the O'Connell schools campus was moved to a new site in the Clonliffe College grounds.

A large plaza could then be created in front of Croker and could be used as the single entry point for the stadium. Croker could then be used a lot more, which is a win win for the whole country and the GAA.

Site:  http://binged.it/1w0RNso

Have a look at the link, specifically the playground areas to get an idea of how a large plaza could be created.

.
how can you relocate a playground?

muppet

Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: snatter on July 15, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.


FFS, this isn't difficult to understand. There is no maximum.

There is not one regulation anywhere, apart form some of your heads, that says Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of 3 events per year.

Croke Park is automatically allowed 3 events (subject to event management plan ) every year. This was granted as a condition under the original planning permission.

Subsequent legislation allows promoters to apply for as many further Croke Park events as they like, by applying to DCC for what are known as a Public Event Licences.

The reason DCC turned down the events licence wasn't that Croke Park had already had 3 events (under the Planning Permission). Rather, it was the 5 consecutuive days duration they objected to. Afaik, it's the first time anywhere that any council has ever turned down one of these event licence applications. Previously it was regarded as a rubber stamp exercise.

DCC did make it clear that 3 concerts in a row was fine, just not 5. Their judgement (for which no appeal mechanism exists) was purely subjective - nothing in any regulation or guidance states 3 consecutive days as a cut-off point.

Having said that, there's nothing in the current legislation or DCC's precedent to prevent promoters from applying for as many more CP concerts as they like, as long as they are only 3 consecutive days. As things stand right now, they could have three concerts a month, every month of the year, under DCC's new precedent.

Going forward, the best thing the Govt & GAA could do is to move the schools at the canal end, and make a proper plaza, through which all CP users would enter and exit. That's the blindingly obvious solution to all of this resident(or faux-resident) v's GAA conflict.

We are saying the same thing but you take pedantic exception to the use of the word maximum.

It is hard to see 5 nights in a row as anything other than greedy, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

It is also hard not to see Brooks as cutting off his 3 noses to spite his 5 faces, but again everyone is entitled to their opinion.
MWWSI 2017