Should An Glenn object?

[Dreadnought]

KC will never replay it and they're dead right. Absolute desperation stuff.

You seem very upset by this. Are you ok?

[Milltown Row2]

A small referring error that did not effect the outcome of the game has been blown all out of proportion with Joe Wally leading the charge.

Take a step back and have a lie down if needs be.

Glen objecting is absolute desperation stuff. If the GAA succumb to loud mouths in the press and order a replay, KC should politely decline and send the cup up the road in a taxi.

How do you know it didn't affect the outcome? Do we just throw out all the rules now?

Nobody knows if it would have or not, the resulting shot wasn't on target but that doesn't matter, the rules haven't been changed and now Croke have to decide on a forfeit replay or a fine, based on the rules.. So if its a fine that should put it to bed or replay or a forfeit 

[trailer]

I think the other compelling one is to stop the GAA copping out of these decisions and trying to put any blame on teams that are involved. That should not be allowed.

Lets hope it leads to a change in how a player is substituted because without that been changed this will happen again and again. Player coming off should be come to the line before sub is allowed on.

Absolutely agree with this.

[Hound]

WTF? Leave us the feck outa it. Neither whitey or Fearbrags are from the north.

Sorry TB! That bit was a joke gone wrong and wasn't appropriate even if they were. 

[westbound]

Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.

This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.

Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref  that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?

Rule 2.1 below!

RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.

I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).

To me it's without question that the rules were broken.  The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).

They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here,

I think you are in agreement that the rules were broken?

I said yesterday that it was ultimately the fault of the officials, but KC may have followed procedure and TRIED to play with only 15 on the field. But they HAD 16 (17!!!) on the field for the last play of them game. Therefore they definintely gained an advantage from breaking the rules - Even if they tried to do everything right.

So I really can't see how anyone can say that the rules weren't broken.

So, if we agree that the rules are broken then it is up to the committee in charge to determine the appropriate punishment. 

If we think through the 3 possible options for punishment:
1) Award the game to glen? Glen were two points down with 30 seconds left, unlikely to get a goal to win, so therefore I believe this punishment wouldn't be a fair punishment for the 'crime'
2) a fine to KC - if we agree that it was an accidental break of the rules by KC and it was more a mistake by the referee, then it doesn't really make sense to issue a fine. Also, this punishment doesn't give any benefit to the team (Glen) that was affected by the rule break. Therefore I don't think this one is appropriate.
3) Replay - The only option left! Plus it gives KC the opportunity to win it again (I actually think they would win a replay with a bit to spare) and it recompenses Glen (i.e. they get the opportunity to win the game).

That's my thought process anyway.

[JoG2]

This craic has definitely filled that wee void between club finishing and the county leagues starting up! Mad stuff altogether.

[Armagh18]

Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.

This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.

Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref  that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?

Rule 2.1 below!

RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.

I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).

To me it's without question that the rules were broken.  The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).

They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here,

I think you are in agreement that the rules were broken?

I said yesterday that it was ultimately the fault of the officials, but KC may have followed procedure and TRIED to play with only 15 on the field. But they HAD 16 (17!!!) on the field for the last play of them game. Therefore they definintely gained an advantage from breaking the rules - Even if they tried to do everything right.

So I really can't see how anyone can say that the rules weren't broken.

So, if we agree that the rules are broken then it is up to the committee in charge to determine the appropriate punishment. 

If we think through the 3 possible options for punishment:
1) Award the game to glen? Glen were two points down with 30 seconds left, unlikely to get a goal to win, so therefore I believe this punishment wouldn't be a fair punishment for the 'crime'
2) a fine to KC - if we agree that it was an accidental break of the rules by KC and it was more a mistake by the referee, then it doesn't really make sense to issue a fine. Also, this punishment doesn't give any benefit to the team (Glen) that was affected by the rule break. Therefore I don't think this one is appropriate.
3) Replay - The only option left! Plus it gives KC the opportunity to win it again (I actually think they would win a replay with a bit to spare) and it recompenses Glen (i.e. they get the opportunity to win the game).

That's my thought process anyway.

Agree with all of that. Replay is the least worst option, not ideal for anyone but here we are. Best thing would have been the ref to order that last play to be retaken 15 v 15

[Armagh18]

This craic has definitely filled that wee void between club finishing and the county leagues starting up! Mad stuff altogether.

Great craic isn't it

[Walt Jabsco]

The process of substitution is covered within the TO where Rule 1.7 states
1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on
either side of the centre-line, shall be marked
as the Substitution Zone, and all the players
coming off/going on to the field of play in acts
of substitution/temporary substitution shall go
through this point, when given permission by
the Referee
Mannion didn't comply not sure about the second sub.
From this it is almost certain that this will be strictly enforced in the Leagues and Championship.

With all the clamouring for a replay there may not be one offered.
With Glen submitting an objection it leaves the CCCC with an option  that would not have been available to them if they commenced an investigation and this may have been their reason for not engaging -that of awarding of the game to the opposing team
6.44 Rules of Specification and Control - Penalties
Penalties for breaches of the above Rules shall be as
follows:
(a) A team failing to field fifteen players, inclusive of
players ordered off or retired injured, by the start of
the second half of a game:
Penalty : Forfeiture of Game and Award to the
GAMES - GENERAL
118
Opposing Team.
(b) (i) A team exceeding the number of players
permitted under Rule 2.1 Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
(ii) A team exceeding the number of substitutions
permitted under Rules 2.4 (i) and (ii) or
breaching Rule 2.4 (iv) (b), Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
Penalties:
On a proven Objection - Award of Game to the
Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the
circumstances.
On an Inquiry by the Committee-in-Charge -
Forfeiture of Game without Award of Game to the
Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the
circumstances

It is possible that the Andy Merrigan Cup could be going up the road in a taxi.

KC might not get the chance to refuse to field 

[seafoid]

They could do it like the Government.  6 months KC, 6 months Wattys

[Truth hurts]

Take the replay to Newry, all ticket. It would be an unreal atmosphere.

[Armagh18]

Take the replay to Newry, all ticket. It would be an unreal atmosphere.

Clones.

[seafoid]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0125/1351758-glen-launch-appeal-to-the-cccc-what-happens-next/investigation has begun.

What happens next?

The GAA forwarded Glen's objection to Kilmacud this morning. The Stillorgan-based club now have the right to counter object and have up to three days to do so, with the deadline arriving on 11am on Saturday.

Crokes had 16 players defending Glen's late 45

Kilmacud can also choose to proactively inform the CCCC that they won't be counter objecting.

If there is no objection this then allows the CCCC to schedule a hearing on the matter.

The third option available to Crokes is to submit a written admission that they had 16/17 players on the field as alleged in the objection by Glen.

If Kilmacud Crokes counter object or don't submit a written admission, a hearing will be held by the CCCC.

When this takes place depends on what course of action Crokes decide upon, and when they choose to respond.

It is understood that the CCCC would like to hold a hearing within 24 hours of any Kilmacud response. That could mean a hearing being held as early as Thursday or as late as Sunday.

Once the CCCC make a decision in the matter, three days are then allowed for an appeal against the decision.

If the CCCC decided the game has to be replayed, any potential rematch could take place as early as the weekend of 4/5 February.

Depending on the process it could be as late as 18 or 19 February as it's understood a Glen player is due to get married on 11 February.

[Franko]

Are we going to replay every game in which refs make a mistake? The probability of Glen scoring a goal was low. Glen took the 45 before ref blew the whistle. It's the stuff of desperation on their behalf.

This isn't only a question of the referee. In this case, the other team broke the rules by not bringing their player off.

Tell me or show me the rule as I haven't seen it, that the team that gives the slip to the 4th official, he then tells the ref  that there are 2 subs coming on, that he then has to wait till the subs go off before restarting that KC management broke the rules?

Rule 2.1 below!

RULE 2 - THE PLAYERS
2.1 A team shall consist of fifteen players.

I don't believe KC management deliberately broke the rules, but I REALLY can't see how anyone can argue that they didn't break the rules (albeit for only about 30 seconds).

To me it's without question that the rules were broken.  The severity of the punishment can be debated IMO. I think it warrants a replay - 'depending on the circumstances' (i.e. it was the last 30 seconds where all 16 players were behind the ball).

They followed procedure, who is there to enforce that? All I'm doing here is what will Croke park be doing to get out of this jam? The subs must leave the field of play before restarting the game.. Look for that rule

The same rule.  You can only have 15 players on the field.  There's no debate.  Kilmacud broke this rule

If you think Croke Park are going to enter into a debate about the fact that the rules were broken, you're in cuckoo land

Referees generally apply common sense and restart a game when the player coming off is a few paces from the line (like Mannion), and generally it works fine

But I've never seen a referee restart a game when the player coming off is still standing on the goal line defending

It's one of those things - you didn't realise it was a problem until it was... but the whole thing clearly needs tightened up now

They player coming on can only enter the field of play AFTER the substituted player leaves it

[OrchardOrange]

It's suggested that Dublin County team have been at this for years esp since the black card came in. They have finished a number of games with 16 men on the field or 15 despite getting a player black carded. The apple does not fall far from the tree.