Murder or self-defence?

Started by RadioGAAGAA, June 20, 2022, 07:42:07 PM

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RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:03:44 PM
What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police?

haha - very funny.

and do you ask them nicely to wait outside for the day or two it might take the peelers to turn up?

Get real. The police, outside a few population centres, may as well not exist.
i usse an speelchekor

Armagh18

Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:03:44 PM
What was to stop him doing what any normal person would do and get in the house and call the police? He hardly good intentions with a hook and a bottle of ammonia.
Wouldn't have been much of him left by then

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.

I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 22, 2022, 09:11:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.

I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs

Completely agree. I grew up among many settled traveller families and they are no different to you or I. The difficulty is that whenever something like this happens,  which is often enough, they are all lumped together. There is a certain level of lawlessness among them but w wonky hear of that side of them. There are many more just struggling to get through life like the rest of us.


marty34

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 22, 2022, 09:48:42 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 22, 2022, 09:11:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on June 21, 2022, 11:36:20 PM
At the risk of getting banned. Are they a law unto themselves. We need to stop making excuses for the traveling community. If this had happened among the "settled" population. We would be appalled and demand justice. Welcome the travellers into a multi ethnic Irish society and expect them to abide by the laws of same.

I'd say they are no different the the lawless gangs out there who have no problems murdering people over drugs

Completely agree. I grew up among many settled traveller families and they are no different to you or I. The difficulty is that whenever something like this happens,  which is often enough, they are all lumped together. There is a certain level of lawlessness among them but w wonky hear of that side of them. There are many more just struggling to get through life like the rest of us.

Problem is we hear of crazy incidents like this, and much worse every week, in what is 'not' in the traveller community.

Much worse in fact.

David McKeown

Quote from: Itchy on June 21, 2022, 02:19:48 PM
Im not familiar with British law but I always understood that murder was where you intentionally set out to kill someone and manslaughter was where you killed someone but didnt mean to kill them - you might have just been out to give them a hammering etc.

So striking someone on the leg with a slash hook falls into the 2nd category surely? I mean if you were trying to kill someone with it you'd hardly go for their leg?

Sorry havent been on the board for a while or might have been able to assist. Can not comment on this case for reasons of privilege but can maybe assist with the more general issues.

At common law so in both jurisdictions to be guilty of murder two things must be proven.  Firstly you must have done an act that has directly resulted in the death of an other and secondly when doing that act you must have had the intention to either kill or inflict really serious harm.  So an individual can be successfully prosecuted for murder if they were only intending to give someone a really good hiding providing what they were intending to do amounted to really serious harm.
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David McKeown

Quote from: full moon on June 21, 2022, 12:05:56 PM
I would have thought manslaughter due to self defence. But we don't know all the evidence. Interesting as there was a lot of discussion last week about the Deliveroo driver killing a teenager by using knife but acquitted of murder and manslaughter. I would have thought both cases were manslaughter.

Wonder is there a difference in law in both jurisdictions? Seems like self defence is hard to know whats allowed and what isn't.

Self defence is a full defence to murder, i.e. if you acted in self defence then you are not guilty of either murder or manslaughter.  The law is actually pretty clear in this area, you are entitled to act with reasonable and proportionate force to what you honestly (as opposed to reasonably) believe is happening or going to happen.  So for example it would be self defence if you stabbed someone because you honestly believed they had a gun and were going to shoot you but it wouldnt be self defence if you shot someone you thought was going to beat you up.

Self defence also doesn't give you carte blanche, so say if you incapacitated an assailant and removed their weapon you couldn't claim self defence if you then went on the kill them as at that point youd no longer be defending yourself

Self defence also applies if you are defending an other.

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David McKeown

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 21, 2022, 08:06:38 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on June 21, 2022, 11:05:38 AM
Not that this is a court of law, but what the point of this thread here?

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

Very hard to know where exactly a homeowner would stand.

So has this fella been sentenced as such because he acted at the front gate? Should he have waited till they were inside the front door?

Or was there another thing we aren't aware of?


'cos if you have to wait till they are physically inside the house, then its not hard to envisage how a group of intruders could cut you off from any "dependent" family members inside the house.

Ahh the immigration act defence, rushed through parliament after the outcry over Tony Martin.  As I explained above you are entitled under the law of self defence to act proportionally to what you honestly believe is happening.  Provided that act is not disproportionate you may claim self defence.  Under the Immigration Act defence you can claim defence of property provided your actions are not grossly disproportionate. So there's a little more wriggle room in what you may do to respond to someone you perceive attacking your property.

Whether it would have applied to Tony Martin who shot intruders in the back as they fled is open to some debate.
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