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neither Kewell or Pennant have travelled.  I think he will go for 4-5-1 and with Gerard behind Kuyt, and Torres to come on for last 20

If Peter has been appointed as the new manager I think it is a very good move.  He has a large amount of experience and has success at both club and county level with the Armagh u 21's.  He is a very clever man in regards to tactics and if he has the right team of ones around him he will be a success. 

I know Paul Grimley is many peoples favourite but I think Peter would be a safe pair of hands.

Attaboy, POG, get in their boy!

Pints does, have a very valid point about the Harps though.  The Harps are probably a more long term success story than the Clans.  The flip side to that is that not only have the Clans been a successful club they have provided Armagh with soem of its greatest players, Smyth, Marsden, McKinstry, Tidsie among others.  It, in my view, is a bit rich to be giving them grief about living in the past.  They and Mullaghbawn were the recent champions before us so therefore they have as recent a history as possible to be proud of.

They may not have much of a fututre as it stands, and I think that is why people have taken umbrage to winsamsoon.  It actually is a pity to see them struggling.  They seem to be getting the grief now that Cross got in the late 80's early 90's and I know that is not nice.  We did the same, I recall arguing with my friends when the Bridge had won a few leagues back when we were younger and this same thing being thrown in my face.

The Cross dominance will pass, when it does Clans will win the championship, I really do not know if I could confidently predict that about many other clubs.

How is it flimsy, he admitted having his phone with him all day.
His phone was not where he was claiming to be ?
Where was he?
Why is he lying?

It puts him in the vicinity at the time.  He lied about that but that goes to his credibility not his guilt.  Standing on its own it is not much to base a conviction on.  BTW, I do believe he is guilty but the area of circumstantial evidence is so vague that there needs to be something more substantial to warrant a person having to spend 20 years of their life in a prison cell.

The Criminal Appeals would only be dealing with a point of law and not a factual issue.  This in turn would mean that if there was a finding of mistrial due to point of law the matter would be referred back for trial.  Whether or not one actually occured would be up to thr prosecution, and I think they would push for a re-trial.

I didn't follow it as closely as some have but I have very little doubt that O'Reilly was guilty.  I do believe however, on my admitted limited knowledge that if he appeals he will win his appeal and a re-trial will be ordered.  Outside of the telephone evidence, which is flimsy in itself, the judge made a great deal in his charge to the jury of the fact that a random burglar would not commit a murder like this ie beat he repeatedly to death, and also that he would not have cleaned up the place or himself. This may be the case but without evidence to the contrary, the prosecution have entered a lack of evidence as being a fact in itself.  The fact that there was no blood etc was indicative of someone who had time to do this and therefore, the chain of evidence leads to someone close to the deceased.  To convict someone in these circumstances, coupled with other circumstantial evidence granted, is opening an edge of the law of evidence which the courts may find hard to close.

A likely scenario is that a re-trial will be ordered and a deal offered to the defendant for the manslaughter plea.

Pints you're mission is twofold, the continued hatred of the black and amber  and shaking those few cuddly areas of yours a little less!

BTW Pints will probably call me an annoying Cross fecker so I take one vote for myself!

No Cross wouldnt agree, shur they wont want to be tapping into neighbouring clubs looking players... would they?

It is a fantastic network system that we have developed to spy on all the talent coming through the local primary schools.  Instead of our senior players sitting and whinging about things they head off to the local primary school and coach the young players during the week.  What this does is that it encourages the young kids subliminally to want to be like Aaron Kernan or Oisin McConville.  It also means that we can clock the young ones at an early age and start putting mind controllingpotions in their Ribena at lunch time to make them want to play for Cross.

Then when we have them in our grasp we full the full of weird beliefs that would not be out of place in Waco, things like they are good footballers and they can be the best in the county some day if they listen to our mantras enough. 

Then when they are good enough they can join the inner circle of the sect, this normally is only seen in public on match days.  Unfortunately some of the young ones are not good enough to get into this circle so rather than letting other teams get them , we cook them on an open fire and eat them, unless they are being fed to Francie and JD who eat them alive.

Once we have completely indoctrinated them they learn the chant "champions, champions, champions" but that is only after years of work that this can happen.

It is great to see the young lads getting stronger at home.  They may not be the best of recent years but they will compete to the last.

It is interesting for me as an outsider looking in how things develop in Armagh now.  Obviously Cross have a fantastic set up and a great underage structure but I find it difficult to understand why clubs are not benefitting from the success of Armagh in getting players out to challenge against us.  I presume that the people in the clubs are doing their best but something has to be seriously wrong.  

I can never remember a Harps team being beaten so comprehensively by Cross.  The have the structures and the pedigree within the club and such a defeat would have been unthought of before.  People often talk about teams being two points done at the sight of a certain jersey, and I know that the Cross jersey is one of them, but is that true in real life?  

I am not saying they will win the minors again this year as I do not know enough about the competition as a whole but I would say they will be there, or there abouts on the day of the Final.  I know we have had the success breeding success debate here before, and to a degree that is true but there has to be something more substantive than that for a team of such great tradition as Harps to presumably put in such a poor performance.  Cross have a serious under 21 team, that I do know and by all accounts they will be very hard to stop.  With the break from Armagh, the likes of Oisin and the Macs can only be in better shape than they have been for a few years.  As Uladh said barring something really unusual is there any realistic challengers to Cross over the next five years?

McDonnell and McGeeney obviously had a close working relationship when he was with Mullaghbawn but I don't know if they have recent contact.  Peter is a very shrewd operator and would be my first choice of them all but I would have reservations about having McGeeney in there as well.  He is very close to the current panel and sometimes that can make difficult decisions hard.  I know Donal Murtagh did it well with Cross but I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

Peter McDonnell, with a good fitness coach and back room team would be the best option, keep Geezer on the panel, and if he is fit he plays, if not he can be the motivator anyway without being part of the management team.

BTW POG I am not having a dig at you individually, I just feel you have an axe to grind over the whole Stephen issue and I feel sometimes you go too far.  Yes, I have  my loyalties but I can see that Joe has done more good for Armagh than bad and many of the issues that he has received blame for are not necessarily his fault.  For instance, up to this year has Stephen had any sustained period of championship play for Armagh?  I don't know how much game time he has had but it would not be that much.

Uladh, of course we are here to discuss football and people will disagree.  I have my loyalties and I will stand by them. 

The reality is that Joe made decisions in crucial games which did not work out, such is the fate of a manager.  There is an old adage, players win games, managers lose them.  I think Joe has taken a lot of flak for his decisons which on their own had major influences on games.  Of all the decisions he made which did not work out, I think taking McGeeney off against Tyrone was the most glaring.

Let's look though at the bigger picture.

In 2003 Armagh were within a last ditch block of winning an AI, coupled with a bad refereeing decision.

In 2004 they were beaten in a shock result against Fermanagh, complacency beat Armagh that day.

In 2005 Tyrone beat them and Joe must take some of the blame for that outcome. However, the players had the chance that day and did not close the game out.
I
n 2006 they were beaten by the best team in the last 20 years and you could see that the players were very tired.  However, if Francie had not received the yellow card when he did things may have been different.

This year they went into the championship without the spine of the team.  He played Stephen, against the opinion of many, yet he did ok.  He played Oisin on the back of a very good year in his AI club success.  Many he shouldn't have.  He played Marsden who did not seem up to speed.  He placed faith in big Paul which, in fairness, most managers would have.  The forwards did not score enough and the changes could have been made, but players got their chance in the National League to prove they were up to it and by many accounts I have heard did not warrant playing.  After all of this, a silly goalkeeping error and a bad refereeing decision means they are out!

This sort of situation is not the fault of the manager.  In my view, Joe has made mistakes, and the players have made mistakes.  It is time for some people to realise that Armagh is not the footballing dynasty that people believe it is.  It is certainly in better shape than it was 15 years ago, but perspective is what is needed.

POG, there has been constant sniping on the board here and in other places about how Joe is only in it to further his own family's interests, that he is only there to get all his sons playing, that nepotisnm rules his decision making. 

Like all people he has made mistakes and he is the one who must deal with that, but to say that Armagh underachieved because of Joe is plainly wrong.   In 2002 Armagh punched above their weight in my view.  They got some lucky breaks throughout the campaign and Kerry took their foot off the peddle in the second half of the final.  They were undoubtedly one of the most consistent teams of recent times, but we all got blinded by the single AI success and believed the media hype and our own delusions.

They could have won another AI and only for the Gormley block would have but I think they were at the highest level that they could have achieved. I don't buy into the whole bullshit that they should have won more.  They could have but over the peiod of 6 years that Joe was manager they won more than any other Armagh team ever did and frankly I think they were lucky to win one AI. 

I hope the new manager takes the players to this new level that everyone seems to think there is but I really think people are deluding themselves.  I agree that it is time for change but to lay the blame for Armagh's "under-achievement" at Joe Kernan's door is simply wrong.

Joe I also am glad that he is stepping down for both his sake and the teams development.  I just feel the way he has been castigated in many quarters is wrong.  

If the stories about Paul Grimley are correct, then I, as a player, would have my concerns as well.  Unless the whole squad of 30 odd are behind the alleged move to road Joe, which I doubt they are, then it would suggest factions within the squad.  That is a bigger threat to success than anything.  

Joe should be left enjoy his break and look after other parts of his life instead of devoting the majority of his time to help fulfill other peoples dreams!

smart fella uladh? i wasnt playing at 11, joe mcnally style full forward role now!!

How things have changed GY?  Gone are those tortutous days running round Kilbroney after Coffey on gold Decemeber mornings!

While I may be big  I can thankfully say I am not in the Joe McNally mode yet.  Tell me have you followed Joe and also the family line and grown a Boycie tache?

[16]

Well done Joe and thanks for bringing Cross and Armagh to a level that would not have been achieved otherwise.  I am probably the only poster here who has worked directly with Joe for a sustained period of time and believe me the man knows more about how to win games than anyone here.  All you buzzards as rrhf so rightly called you can fcuk away off now and leave the man and his family alone.  While there may not have been direct attacks on them Uladh with his "rumours" and "stories" always had a wee side story to every event and POG with his Blue and Gold Bridge glasses cannot see beyond Creggan Bridge. 

If you can show me any other football manager in recent times who has managed teams to 16 championship wins in just over 10 years then fair play to you. 

Take you time Joe and enjoy the sun, it's not like you don't deserve it.