People from the 6 counties (our wee country)

Started by 02, June 21, 2011, 08:49:09 PM

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What is your preferred nationality? (Choose one)

British
European
Irish
Northern Irish

Eamonnca1

Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"?  Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish.  However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.

So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish? Maybe my Irishness is impaired then since my grasp of the Irish language is below basic and I'm certainly no catholic.

I think they consider themselves different because of a revision of history that has taken place.  When Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'?  The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish. Nobody heard of a place called Northern Ireland until relatively recently, and this idea of a separate identity for the north has been retrospectively drummed up and regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity

The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know."  And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?"  That's why you get ten different answers when you ask ten different planters what they are, and some of them as individuals can't even give you a single answer, as EG demonstrated so beautifully with his magnificent example of confusion.

michaelg

"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed.  That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc.  I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.

When Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'? - In response, arguably this was before the Irish language had been politicised by Gerry and his cronies.

"The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish".  - On what authority do you make this assertion?  Interestingly, a recent biography on James Joyce has revealed that he refused to take up an Irish passport, remaining British until his death. 

"... regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity" - Why then has there been 400 odd years of conflict / division / ill feeling? 

"The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." - What about after the 1798 rebellion?  Is it not the case that the "the planters" at this point moved away from a one nation / Irish viewpoint?

"And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" - As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.


Orior

Oh dear Michaelg.

It is interesting that you feel you have more in common with the English that with your own brethern here in Ireland. Methinks you were brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms, and hence have an unnatural hatred for everything in your country.

How did the Shankill get its name? What does it mean? Do you prefer to call it by its english translation?
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

michaelg

Quote from: Orior on June 22, 2011, 11:43:42 PM
Oh dear Michaelg.

It is interesting that you feel you have more in common with the English that with your own brethern here in Ireland. Methinks you were brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms, and hence have an unnatural hatred for everything in your country.

How did the Shankill get its name? What does it mean? Do you prefer to call it by its english translation?
Where have I said I have more in common with people from England?  Also, on what basis do you assume I have been brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms? - I have said nothing inflammatory in anything that I have stated.  Also, how can you say I have an "unnatural hatred for everything in your country".  - I have simply stated that I do not feel included in what I feel is required to be considered as a "true Irishman".

Eamonnca1

#34
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed.  That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc.  I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
Well then you're being very silly.  Look at the following English sports have in Ireland, look at the amount of British TV consumed by Irish audiences, look at the sorry state of the Irish language. If those criteria really were applied then there wouldn't be very many "pure" irish people in existence, would there?

QuoteWhen Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'? - In response, arguably this was before the Irish language had been politicised by Gerry and his cronies.

What's that got to do with the price of fish? Your attempt to change the subject into a name-calling match is noted. The point I made was that there was a time (yes, before "Gerry and the cronies" or "Gerry and the pacemakers" or whoever) when the Anglo Irish ascendency had no problem with the "Irish" monicker and didn't go into sectarian convulsions at the sound of the native language of the land they live on. (Incidentally, where do you stand on immigrants having to learn the local lingo?)


Quote"The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish".  - On what authority do you make this assertion? 

The authority of boys like Henry Grattan.  "The world could not bribe him. He thought only of Ireland; lived for no other object; dedicated to her his beautiful fancy, his elegant wit, his manly courage, and all the splendour of his astonishing eloquence." These were key figures in the ascendancy and agitated for greater autonomy and powers for the Irish Parliament.  When they failed to achieve it by constitutional means then rebellion followed in 1798.

QuoteInterestingly, a recent biography on James Joyce has revealed that he refused to take up an Irish passport, remaining British until his death. 

One man had a British passport?  Well that settles it then.

Quote"... regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity" - Why then has there been 400 odd years of conflict / division / ill feeling? 
What's that got to do with the price of fish? 400 years of conflict/division/ill feeling were not confined to the north.

Quote"The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." - What about after the 1798 rebellion?  Is it not the case that the "the planters" at this point moved away from a one nation / Irish viewpoint?
No, they moved towards it. They were pissed off at the raw deal that their Irish Parliament was getting, and the Presbyterians (who were excluded from it like the catholics) found common cause with the catholics.  BTW, did you know that the Orange Order (aka the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland) originally opposed the Act of Union because it threatened their beloved Irish Parliament?

Quote"And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" - As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
Why do you say that as if I'm disagreeing with you? That does not contradict my point that as a community they are confused about what is the best way to express their hysterical denial of their own Irishness.

02

Quote from: boojangles on June 22, 2011, 06:42:56 PM
So you have a healthy dislike  ??? of Irish Nationality because some people paid 85 euro for a rugby game ticket and because they left nationalists in the North to suffer? Have I got it right?

You are right, as always! Dislike was probably too strong a word and I was taking a stance to get debate going.  I don't feel passionate about being Irish because I hold a lot of resentment about the general apathy shown towards the north of Ireland by the majority of people in the republic during a time when their support was vital. 

The drive for materialism and greed that signified the "Celtic Tiger" was such an amazing phenomenon to observe, the Irish psyche of projecting an image of style over substance came to the fore in the most arrogant and self-obsessed way.   
O'Neills Therapist

deiseach

Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"?  Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish.  However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.

Have you ever read any of the contributions from our guests from OWC (the website)? They absolutely consider themselves Irish.

michaelg

Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"?  Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish.  However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.

Have you ever read any of the contributions from our guests from OWC (the website)? They absolutely consider themselves Irish.
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here.  I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.

deiseach

#38
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here.  I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.

They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you

boojangles

Quote from: 02 on June 23, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Quote from: boojangles on June 22, 2011, 06:42:56 PM
So you have a healthy dislike  ??? of Irish Nationality because some people paid 85 euro for a rugby game ticket and because they left nationalists in the North to suffer? Have I got it right?

You are right, as always! Dislike was probably too strong a word and I was taking a stance to get debate going.  I don't feel passionate about being Irish because I hold a lot of resentment about the general apathy shown towards the north of Ireland by the majority of people in the republic during a time when their support was vital.   

How exactly have you personally experienced this so-called general apathy from the majority of people in the republic? As a 31 year old what year or years did you feel the support of the republic was vital to you personally? What exactly would you have liked or expected from the majority of people from the republic when their support was vital? Mobilisation of a peoples army from the republic? invasion of the North? Civil War?

[/quote] The drive for materialism and greed that signified the "Celtic Tiger" was such an amazing phenomenon to observe, the Irish psyche of projecting an image of style over substance came to the fore in the most arrogant and self-obsessed way. [/quote]

What part of the republic did you live in where you observed this so-called 'amazing phenomenon' ? 

Applesisapples

Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.

michaelg

Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here.  I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.

They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away.  Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too.  However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.

deiseach

Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 11:37:25 AM
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away.  Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too.  However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.

Okay. So how does that fit in with

QuoteHowever, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.

?

lynchbhoy

#43
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 11:37:25 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here.  I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.

They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away.  Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too.  However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.
isnt that a bit like considering yourself a 'jedi' ?
ie a nice but fanciful notion !!
..........

deiseach

Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 23, 2011, 11:41:24 AM
isnt that a bit like considering yourself a 'jedi' ?
ie a nice but fanciful notion !!

I don't think it's fanciful. It's been in existence for 90 years, I can see how people might become attached to it.