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Is it time that the GAA bring in a rule whereby a penalty is awarded (along with a black card), regardless of where the foul takes place, if the referee believes that a clear goal scoring opportunity has been blatantly denied. The Galway v Mayo game another example to add to the ever growing list of these kind of fouls that are ultimately going rewarded. Other sports e.g. hockey have this type of ruling and it works very effectively.

Football has become professional in the nature of how it is played therefore we need appropriate rules to tackle the professional fouling that has entered the game.

I would change the black to a straight red with a four week ( or two games) ban.

Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Quote from: pbat on November 17, 2020, 01:50:06 PM
I would change the black to a straight red with a four week ( or two games) ban.

Yep should at least be a straight red and award a penalty. But would be a tough call for a referee to make.

The black card could really be removed all together and those infractions lumped in with yellow cards. With a yellow card giving you 10 mins on the line.

We all know when a blatant Black card offence takes place eg Mayo v Galway, Sean Cavanagh etc, but there's so many players black carded that aren't black card offences.

I do agree with a penalty for a blatant black card offence, but there'd still be as many inconsistencies as there are already.

Quote from: BennyCake on November 17, 2020, 03:13:39 PM
We all know when a blatant Black card offence takes place eg Mayo v Galway, Sean Cavanagh etc, but there's so many players black carded that aren't black card offences.

I do agree with a penalty for a blatant black card offence, but there'd still be as many inconsistencies as there are already.

There'll always be inconsistencies, but the incentive to just slice down or rugby tackle an opponent clean through on goal needs to be taken away.

Do it to someone to prevent a team breaking so you can get your numbers back - give them a 14 yard free in front of the posts or something.

The system is loaded in favour of the defending team and how cynical they want to be. Take that away.

Rugby has it right. France v Ireland Penalty try and 10 minutes in the bin.

Quote from: LeoMc on November 17, 2020, 03:27:23 PM
Rugby has it right. France v Ireland Penalty try and 10 minutes in the bin.

Pretty much this alright, a penalty being awarded for a trip, pull or illegal tackle of any kind from behind or purposely late to the side to stop a clear goal scoring opportunity.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

There are lots of things that are huge match-turning events. Sometimes refs get them wrong. There's no avoiding that. They get only one real-time, varying-quality, look at something after all.

However, hacking down someone who is clean through on goal instead of trying to fairly tackle them, knowing that you'll only "suffer" the penalty of a black card, is also a match-turning event. Yes, with the red card/penalty punishment you'll have a team now and again feeling hard done by, but at least that would be through an honest refereeing mistake. As things stand you have teams feeling hard done by  due to unsporting cynicism, basically cheating, being indulged, even encouraged, by the rules of the sport itself.

Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 04:09:43 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

There are lots of things that are huge match-turning events. Sometimes refs get them wrong. There's no avoiding that. They get only one real-time, varying-quality, look at something after all.

However, hacking down someone who is clean through on goal instead of trying to fairly tackle them, knowing that you'll only "suffer" the penalty of a black card, is also a match-turning event. Yes, with the red card/penalty punishment you'll have a team now and again feeling hard done by, but at least that would be through an honest refereeing mistake. As things stand you have teams feeling hard done by  due to unsporting cynicism, basically cheating, being indulged, even encouraged, by the rules of the sport itself.

But in the current rule I don't think many players would do what McLaughlin did in the first 60 minutes of a game with 2 points between the teams.

It only becomes a factor in the last 5 or 6 minutes of a game.

What happen when a player is through on goal has a defender behind him who is trying to tackle him and ends up putting his hand in to win the ball, the forward then pulls the defenders hand in, falls over and drags the defender with him.

The ref could end up sending a player off, awarding a penalty and have a team play the rest of the match for 14 men and its so easy to get wrong, particularly when referees are not of a good standard.

McLaughlin does not make that foul before the 60th minute. It does not pay to make that foul before then.

A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

No chance. There's more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 04:09:43 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

There are lots of things that are huge match-turning events. Sometimes refs get them wrong. There's no avoiding that. They get only one real-time, varying-quality, look at something after all.

However, hacking down someone who is clean through on goal instead of trying to fairly tackle them, knowing that you'll only "suffer" the penalty of a black card, is also a match-turning event. Yes, with the red card/penalty punishment you'll have a team now and again feeling hard done by, but at least that would be through an honest refereeing mistake. As things stand you have teams feeling hard done by  due to unsporting cynicism, basically cheating, being indulged, even encouraged, by the rules of the sport itself.

But in the current rule I don't think many players would do what McLaughlin did in the first 60 minutes of a game with 2 points between the teams.

It only becomes a factor in the last 5 or 6 minutes of a game.

What happen when a player is through on goal has a defender behind him who is trying to tackle him and ends up putting his hand in to win the ball, the forward then pulls the defenders hand in, falls over and drags the defender with him.

The ref could end up sending a player off, awarding a penalty and have a team play the rest of the match for 14 men and its so easy to get wrong, particularly when referees are not of a good standard.

McLaughlin does not make that foul before the 60th minute. It does not pay to make that foul before then.

I get all of that, and those are details which would obviously have to be discussed and debated, although I'm not that concerned about forwards trying to pull someone down on themselves. Its happens now and again, but I seriously doubt any forward clean through on goal is going to instead stop and try to stage a foul instead of going for glory.

My biggest concern is that we have big games coming up over the next month, and you can absolutely guarantee that if its tight, and a player does get free ahead of the defense, he is going to be unceremoniously taken out. There is no chance he gets through for a shot if anyone can get near him.

That cannot be allowed to stand in our game.

Quote from: Armagh18 on November 17, 2020, 05:35:54 PM
No chance. There's more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 05:36:51 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on November 17, 2020, 05:35:54 PM
No chance. There's more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.

Sure what odds, thats football. It's not as though one team is gonna do it and the other team wont if given the same chance.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 05:36:00 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 04:09:43 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Straight red and a penalty.

It would soon stop then.

Black card when a point or two up with a few minutes left is about the equivalent of a gentle slap on the wrist.

Fair punishment but would you trust referees to enforce it correctly? A red card and penalty are huge match turning events, I'd have serious concerns about referees judgement to get massive game changing decisions right.

For me there should be a different punishment in the last 10 minutes of the game compared to the first 60. With a sin bin players is generally not going to make that foul in a tight game before the 60th minute leaving his team down a man for a considerable amount of the game.

Down should have buried the game against Cavan when Reilly was in the sinbin, Mooney had a glorious goal chance that I think would have put Down 13 points up coming close to HT.

There are lots of things that are huge match-turning events. Sometimes refs get them wrong. There's no avoiding that. They get only one real-time, varying-quality, look at something after all.

However, hacking down someone who is clean through on goal instead of trying to fairly tackle them, knowing that you'll only "suffer" the penalty of a black card, is also a match-turning event. Yes, with the red card/penalty punishment you'll have a team now and again feeling hard done by, but at least that would be through an honest refereeing mistake. As things stand you have teams feeling hard done by  due to unsporting cynicism, basically cheating, being indulged, even encouraged, by the rules of the sport itself.

But in the current rule I don't think many players would do what McLaughlin did in the first 60 minutes of a game with 2 points between the teams.

It only becomes a factor in the last 5 or 6 minutes of a game.

What happen when a player is through on goal has a defender behind him who is trying to tackle him and ends up putting his hand in to win the ball, the forward then pulls the defenders hand in, falls over and drags the defender with him.

The ref could end up sending a player off, awarding a penalty and have a team play the rest of the match for 14 men and its so easy to get wrong, particularly when referees are not of a good standard.

McLaughlin does not make that foul before the 60th minute. It does not pay to make that foul before then.

I get all of that, and those are details which would obviously have to be discussed and debated, although I'm not that concerned about forwards trying to pull someone down on themselves. Its happens now and again, but I seriously doubt any forward clean through on goal is going to instead stop and try to stage a foul instead of going for glory.

My biggest concern is that we have big games coming up over the next month, and you can absolutely guarantee that if its tight, and a player does get free ahead of the defense, he is going to be unceremoniously taken out. There is no chance he gets through for a shot if anyone can get near him.

That cannot be allowed to stand in our game.

On the forward dragging someone down, there is motivation there, not only would his team have a penalty which could actually be a better chance than the goal opening in the first place - it also would have the opposition a man down for the rest of the mach. He doesn't neccesarily have to stop, all he has to do is make use of a defender attempting a tackle. Forwards pulling players down to get he foul is so commonplace now, you see it on multiple occasions in every match across the country. Some referees spot it, others are duped by it.

The current punishment for those fouls is 10 minutes in the sin bin and a free. The likely result is a point for the opposition and a man advantage for 10 minutes. I think that is probably punishment enough when the foul is committed in the body of the game because a man advantage could be worth more than the 2 pt difference the foul has yielded.

If it was me I'd be raging at a player picking up a black card in the first 60 minutes of a game. I think you can see it in matches. How many black cards have we seen this Championship for those type of cynical fouls in the first 60 minutes of matches? I can't recall any, the only ones that have occured have been for silly fouls that I'm sure management teams would be raging about. I can guarantee you Langan and Canavan would have been dragged down for their goals if they were happening in the last 5-10 minutes of matches in Ballybofey without question but the punishment of being down a man for 10 minutes was too big a deterrent at the time the goal was scored for anyone to do it.

So we currently have a deterrent for the first 60 minutes of games. I think this should then change for the last 10 with an automatic penalty (along with a black card) if the foul is inside the 45 and if its outside the 45 then maybe bringing the ball 30 yards further up for the free and further if the opposition keep trying to delay the taking.

Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Quote from: Armagh18 on November 17, 2020, 05:46:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 05:36:51 PM

Quote from: Armagh18 on November 17, 2020, 05:35:54 PM
No chance. There's more than enough rules in the game. Plus would you really trust refs with making that call?

Clearly there aren't enough rules when a team doesn't give two fucks about sacrificing a player to save a shot on goal.

Sure what odds, thats football. It's not as though one team is gonna do it and the other team wont if given the same chance.

That's not the point though, is it?

Any team could obviously do it given the ridiculously lax consequences for doing so. Those consequences are the point.

It could be Neil McGee pulling down Con O'Callaghan in a few weeks if we beat Cavan next week. Just because Donegal might get through on the back of it wouldn't make it right. As a Donegal supporter it would take a lot of the shine off it.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

There was a bad one in Galway Kilkenny Saturday night. Same rules should really be in hurling too.

Quote from: imtommygunn on November 17, 2020, 06:13:08 PM
There was a bad one in Galway Kilkenny Saturday night. Same rules should really be in hurling too.

Nobody complained or started a thread in it. They moved on

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 06:45:03 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let's just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you'll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn't taken out?

Quote from: trileacman on November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 07:22:27 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 06:45:03 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let's just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you'll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn't taken out?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Players will do what it takes but the rules just deter cynicism, not reward it.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: trileacman on November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 07:54:03 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: trileacman on November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 07:51:41 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 07:22:27 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 06:45:03 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: Blowitupref on November 17, 2020, 05:15:07 PM
A red card and misses the next game should be the punishment. Black cards are well past their sell by date at this stage. Red and yellow cards is enough for already confused and poor quality refs.

But red cards are draconian measures. What if a player is wrongly sanctioned in the first 10 minutes of a game. Down to 14 for the rest of the match and a penalty to boot.

As things are now, players will not make that kind of foul until it pays to make that foul - which is the last 5/6 minutes of a game. The sinbin is a deterrent to players making these fouls in the first 60 minutes of a game. It's counter productive and puts your team under a lot of pressure.

In the modern game, a numbers disadvantage means so, so much more than it did 15/20 years ago.

Is there many examples in recent intercounty games of a team playing more than one half of football a man down and winning? I can't remember many at all. You can see how much a game can change with the sin bin now and how teams can take advantage of it.

I do think there should be a body set up to review fouls like that and hand retrospective bans for cynical fouls such as McLaughlan did on Sunday.

The point of red cards is to act as a deterrent. I'd bring in rules similar to soccer. Professional fouls/cynical fouls to deny a clear goal scoring opportunity should be a red card offence. That way a player might think twice before committing the foul and if he did it in the last minute to guarantee victory he would be suspended for the next game.

Wouldn't be hard for referees to implement as well. It's not hard to spot a defender deliberately take out a forward as he's about to score.

How many black cards have happened in Championship so far this year for those type of cynical fouls?

How many of those type of cynical fouls were in the first 60 minutes of games?

The sin bin is a deterrent but only so much so in that there is at least 10 minutes of play to go.

So let's just beat them with a stick for the remaining five minutes for being cynical Cnuts!

If your team was winning by 2 points with a couple of minutes to go, you'll be happy the player running through on your teams goal wasn't taken out?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Players will do what it takes but the rules just deter cynicism, not reward it.

Is that a no?

So you're not associated with a team/played or managed a team ?

Otherwise just answer it, stop with the stupid don't hate the player shit!

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 08:04:01 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 07:54:03 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: trileacman on November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

We've seen plenty of extremely controversial black cards since its introduction.

Upgrading black card offences to red card just compounds matters.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 08:08:46 PM

Is that a no?

So you're not associated with a team/played or managed a team ?

Otherwise just answer it, stop with the stupid don't hate the player shit!

It's not stupid.

Players will naturally take advantage of rules that reward cynicism. It's what has happened, it is what will happen in future.

What needs to be done is a proper deterrent brought it that punishes what we saw at the end of the Connacht final. All 30 players on the pitch would likely have done the exact same thing, the problem is the rules though. It's pretty clearcut for me, if you don't agree then that's your prerogative.

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 08:13:28 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 17, 2020, 08:04:01 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 07:54:03 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: trileacman on November 17, 2020, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 06:01:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

Clearly we can't be fair-minded.

And if someone clean through would probably miss, why the need to scythe them down?

Or is it only an issue when its someone like Colm McManus?

The difficult is in defining what "clean through" is. like the black card the vast majority of instances will fall into a grey area where injustice is just as likely an outcome as justice done.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate it.

If someone is charging in on goal where, if he is not fouled, he will get into a position where he would have a good chance to score a goal, then a foul to take him out, as opposed to an honest attempt to dispossess him, should be red card/penalty punishment.

McLoughlin's foul at the weekend, Cavanagh's rugby tackle, a goalkeeper grabbing an attacker by the foot etc.

Yeah, there will be an injustice here and there, but so what? There are always going to be bad or missed calls no matter what the rule. The issue is that it will stop the cynical foul and taking one for the team. If a team is going to cry "well another defender might have got there to tackle him", so what? If that's the case, then why did you hack the lad down.

Right now we are telling teams its ok to take him down, that's its simply a part of the game we're comfortable with.

We shouldn't be. Its completely against any sporting ethos I'm aware of.

My problem with a red card is that what if the referee gets it wrong in the first ten minutes of an All Ireland final?

If he does get it wrong in a situation like that then he has cost a team an All Ireland final. If it's a black card and a 10 minute sin bin then it might have an effect but it won't decide the game.

A red card for a clear and obvious denial of a goal scoring chance is what alot of people are suggesting. That by its nature is going to be clear to the referee. If a player commits a foul and gets sent off that's his fault not the refs.

Arguments that the ref sending off a player would ruin the game like the All Ireland should be ignored full stop. If a player commits a serious foul then what day the game is on is irrelevant. Former Kilkenny players in the media trying to use All Ireland final day as a reason Richie Hogan shouldn't have been sent off last year were an insult to the referee and the rules of the game.

We've seen plenty of extremely controversial black cards since its introduction.

Upgrading black card offences to red card just compounds matters.

Black cards are given for a multitude of reasons and can be difficult to judge. That's one of the reasons they changed the rules to 10 min in the sin bin. Very hard to for a referee to get wrong a clear and obvious foul when a player is bearing down on goal. There's not a referee in the country wouldn't have seen a foul like the one on Sunday as a clear and obvious foul to deny a goal scoring chance.

There's enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 08:29:39 PM



There's enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 09:07:26 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 08:29:39 PM



There's enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

The refs role has changed dramatically since I took up the whistle.

My beef is with the constant changing of the rules and changing the game, it just hasn't improved it in any shape or form.

What have you noticed has changed?

Are we going to sanitise to the point of non contact?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 09:24:50 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 17, 2020, 09:07:26 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 08:29:39 PM



There's enough for refs to do without taking on more new rules.

In all honesty have the new rules stopped what they were brought in to achieve?

So the issue is the workload of the refs?

Not fair play and sportsmanship in the game?

How would this add to the ref's work anyway? Its just a different penalty. He or she still has to call the foul even if nothing changes.

On Sunday, the ref would have given McLoughlin a red card and Galway a penalty instead of giving McLoughlin a black card and Galway a free.

Same amount of work, vast difference in terms of justice.

The refs role has changed dramatically since I took up the whistle.

My beef is with the constant changing of the rules and changing the game, it just hasn't improved it in any shape or form.

What have you noticed has changed?

Are we going to sanitise to the point of non contact?

I'm arguing a very specific point about making the punishment fit the crime when someone is pulled down deliberately to prevent a goal chance.

If you want to have a wider debate about "sanitising" the game in terms of contact, or indeed wider experimenting with the rules, that's a different argument and I'm not your man.

And I'm saying stop changing the rules every time a foul is highlighted.

Some refs call bet the weekend couldn't even apply simple rules correctly ;D

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:59:17 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

If he didn't do it, there's a fair chance they'd have lost the game.

A red card for him should mean missing the All-Ireland semi-final, but at least his team would be there.

He did it because "I loves me County", even if it cost his own appearance in the semi-final (or final if in a later game).

What would the appropriate sanction for doing it in the All-Ireland final, preserving the win?  Miss 3 league games, or next two provincial games?  Take that punishment gladly and party on in Castlebar or Omagh or Killarney or wherever with Sam for the winter, with the aggressor now a hero.

Quote from: Ball Hopper on November 17, 2020, 10:34:40 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:59:17 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

If he didn't do it, there's a fair chance they'd have lost the game.

A red card for him should mean missing the All-Ireland semi-final, but at least his team would be there.

He did it because "I loves me County", even if it cost his own appearance in the semi-final (or final if in a later game).

What would the appropriate sanction for doing it in the All-Ireland final, preserving the win?  Miss 3 league games, or next two provincial games?  Take that punishment gladly and party on in Castlebar or Omagh or Killarney or wherever with Sam for the winter, with the aggressor now a hero.

That's why you need the penalty award.

For certain infringements,  basketball has a free throw and subsequent possession awarded to the fouled team. An equivalent of this would be a great disincentive against the foul in the opponent's half once the ball has been turned over.

Agree with J70 that an automatic penalty for something like we saw at the weekend is warranted.   Soccer has, or used to have, something like this, didn't it?  It wasn't unmanageabley difficult to oversee, was it?

Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on November 18, 2020, 04:18:04 AM

Agree with J70 that an automatic penalty for something like we saw at the weekend is warranted.   Soccer has, or used to have, something like this, didn't it?  It wasn't unmanageabley difficult to oversee, was it?

Red card in soccer. No penalty kick if foul occurs outside the box, just a normal free same as GAA.

To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.     

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

I think the black card has worked in football. Would Eoin Murchan have been allowed run through and score his goal against Kerry if a player could have pulled him down with just a yellow card for punishment. It's led to more goals in general in football as players are far less willing to take down a player knowing a black card was coming and that would be the end of the game for them.

It really stand out in hurling now the difference not having a black card. Almost any time a CB gets turned these days he pulls down the forward for a yellow card to stop him scoring a yellow card. The Galway CB did take it to a new level by grabbing the Kilkenny player's hurl to stop him going in for a goal last weekend.   

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 01:36:36 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

I think the black card has worked in football. Would Eoin Murchan have been allowed run through and score his goal against Kerry if a player could have pulled him down with just a yellow card for punishment. It's led to more goals in general in football as players are far less willing to take down a player knowing a black card was coming and that would be the end of the game for them.

It really stand out in hurling now the difference not having a black card. Almost any time a CB gets turned these days he pulls down the forward for a yellow card to stop him scoring a yellow card. The Galway CB did take it to a new level by grabbing the Kilkenny player's hurl to stop him going in for a goal last weekend.

The other way round. Huw Lawlor (KK) was beat all ends up by Niall Burke (GW) and just held onto his hurl for dear life.

Unacceptable.

Quote from: Ball Hopper on November 17, 2020, 10:34:40 PM

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 05:59:17 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 17, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Players are through on goals a lot, how many are scored? Missed or pointed or keeper pulls off save?

Pull down in box penalty, anywhere else black card. Simple

Why is it that football always looking changes, can use Cnuts just not be fair minded Gaels like the hurlers?

Black cards player off, then black card player off for ten minutes, kick out mark, now forward mark. Changed square ball rule, 5 subs .. yellow cards rescinded for extra time, black cards remain.....

So many rule changes. You want Refs now to give a penalty and red card for someone, Alleged 'clean through' who'd probably miss ffs! Can you imagine that in a club championship game? Refs would be strung up on some tree outside the club house!

There's no punishment for what McLaughlin did too.

Would he have done it if he knew he'd miss an All Ireland semi final do you think?

Maybe, maybe not.

If he didn't do it, there's a fair chance they'd have lost the game.

A red card for him should mean missing the All-Ireland semi-final, but at least his team would be there.

He did it because "I loves me County", even if it cost his own appearance in the semi-final (or final if in a later game).

What would the appropriate sanction for doing it in the All-Ireland final, preserving the win?  Miss 3 league games, or next two provincial games?  Take that punishment gladly and party on in Castlebar or Omagh or Killarney or wherever with Sam for the winter, with the aggressor now a hero.

There's also a fair chance Kelly would have missed and Mayo would have won.

The fact is there was no real deterrent there for that foul, if it had been a red card and suspension - he would a genuinely difficult choice to that would have some cost to him for doing so. As it was he had an easy choice to make, take the black card and the win, he'll be available for the semi-final anyway.

The other option I suggested is that from the 60th minute onward, if the foul takes place inside the 45 yard line then its a red card and automatic penalty. So that's the motivation for a player to not commit a professional foul.

It has to be about punishing cynical play rather than making it an easy decision for a player. The game at the top level is all about winning, if committing a foul brings more reward than only trying to play the ball fairly then for any player for a serious team it's an easy decision.

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:51:30 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 01:36:36 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

I think the black card has worked in football. Would Eoin Murchan have been allowed run through and score his goal against Kerry if a player could have pulled him down with just a yellow card for punishment. It's led to more goals in general in football as players are far less willing to take down a player knowing a black card was coming and that would be the end of the game for them.

It really stand out in hurling now the difference not having a black card. Almost any time a CB gets turned these days he pulls down the forward for a yellow card to stop him scoring a yellow card. The Galway CB did take it to a new level by grabbing the Kilkenny player's hurl to stop him going in for a goal last weekend.

The other way round. Huw Lawlor (KK) was beat all ends up by Niall Burke (GW) and just held onto his hurl for dear life.

Unacceptable.

Players hold hurls in every game, that would be a serious amount of black cards.. I'll try it out some time in your neck of the woods lol

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 02:38:26 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:51:30 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 01:36:36 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

I think the black card has worked in football. Would Eoin Murchan have been allowed run through and score his goal against Kerry if a player could have pulled him down with just a yellow card for punishment. It's led to more goals in general in football as players are far less willing to take down a player knowing a black card was coming and that would be the end of the game for them.

It really stand out in hurling now the difference not having a black card. Almost any time a CB gets turned these days he pulls down the forward for a yellow card to stop him scoring a yellow card. The Galway CB did take it to a new level by grabbing the Kilkenny player's hurl to stop him going in for a goal last weekend.

The other way round. Huw Lawlor (KK) was beat all ends up by Niall Burke (GW) and just held onto his hurl for dear life.

Unacceptable.

Players hold hurls in every game, that would be a serious amount of black cards.. I'll try it out some time in your neck of the woods lol

99% of the time they hold they own hurls though not their opponents. Donal Og was on punditry duty for the game and he was calling for the black card to be introduced to hurling to deal with cynical fouls like that.

Asking hurley refs to enforce rules ::)
Ah here..... them lads don't want any oul football practices coming into their pure saintly game.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 02:38:26 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:51:30 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 01:36:36 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Laois Rising on November 18, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
To the posters saying you should stop tinkering with the rules of football you have to remember that football is now being played very differently to what it was. Therefore, rules need to adapt to meet the demands on the modern game. You adapt or you die- personally I would like to an end to players being high fived, praised and rewarded for rugby tackling their opponents to stop goal scoring changes accruing. It's such a simple change to implement and at least trial during the national league for example. We have had some crazy rule changes trialed e.g. number of handpasses in a row, three players on the line for a penalty taken outside the 21. This is a logical rule change to meet an obvious blight on our game. Why not trial it to see if it eradicates this blight. With the competitive nature of the national league and high number of close games we probably won't have to wait too long to see if the rule change is a success or not.   

So I'll ask the question again, has any of the changes made, been an improvement on the game? O r do players and managers just adopt to the rules and then we are asking for new changes?

I think the black card has worked in football. Would Eoin Murchan have been allowed run through and score his goal against Kerry if a player could have pulled him down with just a yellow card for punishment. It's led to more goals in general in football as players are far less willing to take down a player knowing a black card was coming and that would be the end of the game for them.

It really stand out in hurling now the difference not having a black card. Almost any time a CB gets turned these days he pulls down the forward for a yellow card to stop him scoring a yellow card. The Galway CB did take it to a new level by grabbing the Kilkenny player's hurl to stop him going in for a goal last weekend.

The other way round. Huw Lawlor (KK) was beat all ends up by Niall Burke (GW) and just held onto his hurl for dear life.

Unacceptable.

Players hold hurls in every game, that would be a serious amount of black cards.. I'll try it out some time in your neck of the woods lol

ha ha.   ;D

Next time you can give big Magic the odd free when there's two or three lads hanging out of him, that would be a good start.

Hated hurl holders, the only cure was to pull the hurl out of their hands and drive it into their ribs.

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:48:23 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Look let me go over some stuff, cynical play is always dealt with, yellow or red card in hurling, black card in football. If a player is in the 45 and player takes him out, are we now asking for a red card followed by a penalty?

That's now in hurling and football?

Some calls are very difficult to call, so when a player use opponents arm to look as if he'd been dragged down, ref not in a better position that the 12 cameras at the game, calls it, player sent off, penalty,  and it's the wrong decision?

And now we are putting in holding hurls in that bracket?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 05:35:12 PM
Look let me go over some stuff, cynical play is always dealt with, yellow or red card in hurling, black card in football. If a player is in the 45 and player takes him out, are we now asking for a red card followed by a penalty?

That's now in hurling and football?

Some calls are very difficult to call, so when a player use opponents arm to look as if he'd been dragged down, ref not in a better position that the 12 cameras at the game, calls it, player sent off, penalty,  and it's the wrong decision?

And now we are putting in holding hurls in that bracket?

If you'd seen how blatant it was on Saturday, then yes you would. Denied the player a clear goal scoring chance just the same as if he'd rugby tackled him to the ground.

Basketball, Soccer, rugby have rules for clear and cynical foul play. Even baseball which is almost a non contact sport has rules as well for cynical foul play.

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 06:42:14 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 05:35:12 PM
Look let me go over some stuff, cynical play is always dealt with, yellow or red card in hurling, black card in football. If a player is in the 45 and player takes him out, are we now asking for a red card followed by a penalty?

That's now in hurling and football?

Some calls are very difficult to call, so when a player use opponents arm to look as if he'd been dragged down, ref not in a better position that the 12 cameras at the game, calls it, player sent off, penalty,  and it's the wrong decision?

And now we are putting in holding hurls in that bracket?

If you'd seen how blatant it was on Saturday, then yes you would. Denied the player a clear goal scoring chance just the same as if he'd rugby tackled him to the ground.

Basketball, Soccer, rugby have rules for clear and cynical foul play. Even baseball which is almost a non contact sport has rules as well for cynical foul play.

I watched all the games at the weekend, I didn't come away thinking that we need to start giving penalties and red cards from the 45 yard line as it might, might be a goal opportunity.

You'll be giving red card for pulling jerseys next, as hold a hurl is no different

Quote from: J70 on November 18, 2020, 04:32:30 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:48:23 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 07:03:05 PM

Quote from: dublin7 on November 18, 2020, 06:42:14 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 18, 2020, 05:35:12 PM
Look let me go over some stuff, cynical play is always dealt with, yellow or red card in hurling, black card in football. If a player is in the 45 and player takes him out, are we now asking for a red card followed by a penalty?

That's now in hurling and football?

Some calls are very difficult to call, so when a player use opponents arm to look as if he'd been dragged down, ref not in a better position that the 12 cameras at the game, calls it, player sent off, penalty,  and it's the wrong decision?

And now we are putting in holding hurls in that bracket?

If you'd seen how blatant it was on Saturday, then yes you would. Denied the player a clear goal scoring chance just the same as if he'd rugby tackled him to the ground.

Basketball, Soccer, rugby have rules for clear and cynical foul play. Even baseball which is almost a non contact sport has rules as well for cynical foul play.

I watched all the games at the weekend, I didn't come away thinking that we need to start giving penalties and red cards from the 45 yard line as it might, might be a goal opportunity.

You'll be giving red card for pulling jerseys next, as hold a hurl is no different

I didn't see anyone get a clear goal scoring chance from the 45 yard line in any of the games either. I did see a Galway player taken out on the edge of the area in the going in on goal in the football and a Galway hurling player being denied a clear goal scoring chance just outside the area as well with a cynical foul.

Why shouldn't a player receive a red card for deliberately stopping someone scoring a goal? This would only apply to clear goal scoring opportunities. Fouls on the half way line or 45m line wouldn't be deemed clear goaling chances so that's irrelevant to this rule.

The point of red cards or black cards for cynical play is to discourage cynical play and help the attacking player. This rule would lead to more goals so and less foul play during games. Surely that's a good thing for the sport.

But the cries will come out, he was clean through ref, two attackers on one defender,  that was a cert goal!

Quote from: Angelo on November 18, 2020, 07:58:09 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 18, 2020, 04:32:30 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:48:23 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

I've not expressed ANY surprise that players do it.

Why wouldn't they, given the extremely lenient punishment they're subjected to and the attitudes of those in the sport such as Verney and many on this board, who see it as something a player should be expected to do and apparently ok from the perspective of sportsmanship.

I agree with you that it's the rules that are the problem, but they're not going to be changed if nobody gives a f**k (again, I do NOT share your reluctance based on the refs). Maybe it WILL take a team like Dublin losing an AI final due to such a foul before the GAA community comes to its senses.

Galway haven't said a word, when they should be all over this. But they know that in the real world Pauric Joyce would be told to f**k away off and stop complaining and worry more about the mistakes they made. And so they just have to take it, just like the next team will, until Dublin or Kerry get screwed and someone in the media decides to take up the mantle.

If it happens to us, I hope Declan Bonner creates holy hell.

So Dublin Donegal final, Donegal two points up dying seconds, Dublin player clean through on goal, Donegal defender takes one for the All Ireland title and is black carded Dublin take the point and Donegal win the title.

So from your stand point, ethics and sportsmanship you'll not celebrate it, as its completely tainted, in fact you'll want to give a penalty and red card  and lose the title.

Morally it's right, the honesty is to be admired of a player that allows an attacker to run through without a last ditched attempt to bring him down.

Fair play J70

What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

Quote from: johnnycool on November 19, 2020, 09:21:16 AM
What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

That's an easier way of doing it Johnny!!

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2020, 09:24:12 AM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 19, 2020, 09:21:16 AM
What if we make the area where a penalty can be awarded bigger?

Instead of only out to the 13 metre line, move it out to the 20 metre line and maybe wider than the current 19 metres..

Not any more difficult for referees to officiate and giving cynical type defending a bigger area where a transgression is suitably punished.

That's an easier way of doing it Johnny!!

Except any sort of niggly tussle - maybe not even an actual foul - within the 20 metre line would then earn a penalty.

Quote from: J70 on November 19, 2020, 01:50:28 AM

Quote from: Angelo on November 18, 2020, 07:58:09 PM

Quote from: J70 on November 18, 2020, 04:32:30 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on November 18, 2020, 01:48:23 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
Foul play shouldn't pay.
Unfortunately in Gaelic football it does pay and even more so in Hurley stuff.

Agreed.

I was listening to the Irish Indo's Throw-In podcast on the weekend's games.

Michael Verney was effusively praising McLoughlin for hacking down the Galway player, saying it showed his maturity and football intelligence, even though he's a young lad.

That's where we at on this issue.

Its not blatant, unsportsman-like cheating. Its clear thinking under pressure, a sign of a good player, well able for intercounty.

"Sure they're all at it. So what if its cheating? If they don't do it, the other team will"

Since the dawn of day in team sports, players bend the rules as much as they can to win. It's nothing new so I don't know why you seem so surprised.

Any player for all those top teams would have no problem doing what McLaughlin did. It's the nature of competitive football, always has been. Back in the 50s and 60s it might have been a manner of GBH that would have been used to silence a danger man. The issue is not players being unsportsmanlike, it's deterring them from such actions.

Until there are rules that deal with that then it will continue. But I don't want rules to be introduced that give incompetent referees scope to make major incorrect calls that can decide matches.

I've not expressed ANY surprise that players do it.

Why wouldn't they, given the extremely lenient punishment they're subjected to and the attitudes of those in the sport such as Verney and many on this board, who see it as something a player should be expected to do and apparently ok from the perspective of sportsmanship.

I agree with you that it's the rules that are the problem, but they're not going to be changed if nobody gives a f**k (again, I do NOT share your reluctance based on the refs). Maybe it WILL take a team like Dublin losing an AI final due to such a foul before the GAA community comes to its senses.

Galway haven't said a word, when they should be all over this. But they know that in the real world Pauric Joyce would be told to f**k away off and stop complaining and worry more about the mistakes they made. And so they just have to take it, just like the next team will, until Dublin or Kerry get screwed and someone in the media decides to take up the mantle.

If it happens to us, I hope Declan Bonner creates holy hell.

The reason Galway haven't said anything is that it would be hypocritical of them to do so. Had it been Galway closing the game out in injury time you can be guaranteed they'd be doing the same and Joyce would likely be accused of sour grapes when the reality was Mayo were the better team on the day. The rules are the rules and the rules were followed in the situation that unfurled.

Cynicism exists, always has, always will and teams are very good at finding new ways to bend the rules, it's the competitive nature of sport.

All teams know the way it is and how you close out games. If someone is bearing down on goal then you get them out by any means before they reach the box. We have a new rule introduced this year on cynical fouling, the sin bin is more punitive than the previous replacement option of the black card. I think it has worked well but the one area it falls down in has to be the closing stages of games where teams aren't going to be without a man for the full 10 minutes.

One thing I'll add about the Mayo foul, why didn't Galway go for a goal from the resulting free?  There was probably less than a minute to go and there was no way they'd get another chance for a score. Yes there was 44 players on the line, but go for it anyway. Same with COC in the 2013 AI final, have a bloody go!

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2020, 07:46:38 AM
So Dublin Donegal final, Donegal two points up dying seconds, Dublin player clean through on goal, Donegal defender takes one for the All Ireland title and is black carded Dublin take the point and Donegal win the title.

So from your stand point, ethics and sportsmanship you'll not celebrate it, as its completely tainted, in fact you'll want to give a penalty and red card  and lose the title.

Morally it's right, the honesty is to be admired of a player that allows an attacker to run through without a last ditched attempt to bring him down.

Fair play J70

That's my whole point.

Donegal would celebrate, the player would be seen to have done what he had to, after all "it's within  the rules!", and Dublin would just have to take it, fair play be damned.

It's a laughable state of affairs.

However, if it did happen as you lay out, maybe then something would actually be done about it.