Football qualifier route 2019

Started by Blowitupref, May 22, 2019, 01:45:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

APM

Quote from: Owenmoresider on June 13, 2019, 11:03:27 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
A couple of years after the introduction of tiering and Lenny Harbinson won't be getting asked his opinion too often I would say, as Antrim's serene progress into the latter stages of the Mickey Mouse Cup is equally serenely ignored by all and sundry.

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

The longer term rationale behind this is to move to an 8 team semi professional set up, the introduction of the super 8's and tiering are just waystations on the road to this. Getting the GPA in-house and onboard was another one of these.

John Horan and the Croke Park suits won't say this publicly of course, and I would give Horan the benefit of the doubt on this as he thinks he is being a leader when in fact he is a follower, but high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years.
On the money.

We need a revolution!!

Rossfan

APM have you heard of "Gaelfest"?
As for attendances at Tyrone hurling games ... I'm sure ye all remember the thousands that used to go to their Ulster SHC games back in the day? ::)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Keyser soze

Quote from: trailer on June 13, 2019, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
A couple of years after the introduction of tiering and Lenny Harbinson won't be getting asked his opinion too often I would say, as Antrim's serene progress into the latter stages of the Mickey Mouse Cup is equally serenely ignored by all and sundry.

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

The longer term rationale behind this is to move to an 8 team semi professional set up, the introduction of the super 8's and tiering are just waystations on the road to this. Getting the GPA in-house and onboard was another one of these.

John Horan and the Croke Park suits won't say this publicly of course, and I would give Horan the benefit of the doubt on this as he thinks he is being a leader when in fact he is a follower, but high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years.

Antrim's current progress is currently being ignored by all and sundry. Who's not going to turn up now? Antrim attendances are pathetic. An Ulsterbus would ferry their support about for God's sake. And we haven't even brought in tiering.

If you think this is about an 8 team semi professional setup then I'm afraid it is you who is "talking through their hole"

Can you please define who the "Croke Park suits" are? Names? Where the come from? How they got the jobs? Job terms?

"high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years." Has it crossed your mind that the reason they have been advocating for this is because it might actually help the game?

Not sure what you are trying to say here Trailer, you accuse me of talking through my hole in saying this is geared towards an 8 team competition, and you then admit that there are in fact people advocating this and that furthermore you think that this is a great idea as it will help the game.

lenny

Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
A couple of years after the introduction of tiering and Lenny Harbinson won't be getting asked his opinion too often I would say, as Antrim's serene progress into the latter stages of the Mickey Mouse Cup is equally serenely ignored by all and sundry.

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

The longer term rationale behind this is to move to an 8 team semi professional set up, the introduction of the super 8's and tiering are just waystations on the road to this. Getting the GPA in-house and onboard was another one of these.

John Horan and the Croke Park suits won't say this publicly of course, and I would give Horan the benefit of the doubt on this as he thinks he is being a leader when in fact he is a follower, but high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years.

Who's Lenny harbison?

macdanger2

Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

Hard to argue with that, if anything, it'll widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

From a spectacle point of view (less mismatches), a tiered championship would work well but it's absolutely nothing to do with improving the lot of weaker counties. Better/more equal funding is the only way to achieve that

lenny

Quote from: macdanger2 on June 13, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

Hard to argue with that, if anything, it'll widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

From a spectacle point of view (less mismatches), a tiered championship would work well but it's absolutely nothing to do with improving the lot of weaker counties. Better/more equal funding is the only way to achieve that

So you reckon the gap between Dublin and Wicklow, tyrone and antrim, mayo and London, Kerry and limerick will get wider with tiering. I would say the gap is already too wide to narrow within the next 20 years. Funding is something that people have only started to talk about in the last couple of years with the dominance of Dublin. The gap between the top teams and the rest was always there. Funding won't make a difference. Counties like Fermanagh and Wicklow have never won anything. counties like that get 2 championship games a year, 3 if they get a lucky draw. Where is the chance to progress? Tiers would at least give the weaker counties something to play for.

imtommygunn

Forgetting improving the standards there is a problem with the huge gap appearing between the top and bottom teams and that is creating an apathy in county teams. How many county teams up and down the country do you read sob stories about they would be so much better if they had their best players available? There is a serious problem when this is so widespread. Boys are knocking their pan in all winter to then be on the receiving end of some big beatings and then the enthusiasm isn't there. Lesser teams have no continuity in their panel and with the level of strength and conditioning these days it takes boys 2 to 3 years to be at the level required for good county football. The lesser counties can't even guarantee the same players, bar a core few, year on year so they completely lose out to this and it just spirals into a perpetual cycle.

Whatever about the GAA's motivations here... how does the current championship structure improve this?

Owenmoresider

Quote from: lenny on June 13, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 13, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

Hard to argue with that, if anything, it'll widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

From a spectacle point of view (less mismatches), a tiered championship would work well but it's absolutely nothing to do with improving the lot of weaker counties. Better/more equal funding is the only way to achieve that

So you reckon the gap between Dublin and Wicklow, tyrone and antrim, mayo and London, Kerry and limerick will get wider with tiering. I would say the gap is already too wide to narrow within the next 20 years. Funding is something that people have only started to talk about in the last couple of years with the dominance of Dublin. The gap between the top teams and the rest was always there. Funding won't make a difference. Counties like Fermanagh and Wicklow have never won anything. counties like that get 2 championship games a year, 3 if they get a lucky draw. Where is the chance to progress? Tiers would at least give the weaker counties something to play for.
The problem is that, like with restoring the Divisions 1-4 setup over the 1A/1B/2A/2B a decade ago, is that the tiering will entrench the advantages the top teams have by playing each other regularly and raising the standards as a result. The problem isn't that the gaps to Wicklow, Antrim, London and Limerick will get bigger than they already are. It's that after a few years of it the gap to the likes of Laois, Down, Sligo and Tipperary will have got much wider than they already are. And like with Carlow in the hurling this year and Laois next year if they win the Joe MacDonagh Cup, that the team that goes up into the top tier will be chasing shadows and will go straight back down, and whoever follows them likewise.

As has been alluded to before, the push for tiering has little to do with concern for the weaker counties, it's driven to create an elite competition amongst the top teams and feed the media interest and generate greater revenue as a result. That Sligo might win a first round Joe Brolly Cup tie against Waterford in Nenagh is not what enthuses Croke Park about going down the road they have set themselves on.

johnnycool

Quote from: Rossfan on June 13, 2019, 11:13:17 AM
APM have you heard of "Gaelfest"?
As for attendances at Tyrone hurling games ... I'm sure ye all remember the thousands that used to go to their Ulster SHC games back in the day? ::)

When they meant something you'd have got 3 or 4K at an Ulster SHC game in Casement back in the 90's and up to the early 00's until everything was changed.

Rossfan

How many of those Ulster Finals did Tyrone play in?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

BennyCake

Quote from: johnnycool on June 13, 2019, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 13, 2019, 11:13:17 AM
APM have you heard of "Gaelfest"?
As for attendances at Tyrone hurling games ... I'm sure ye all remember the thousands that used to go to their Ulster SHC games back in the day? ::)

When they meant something you'd have got 3 or 4K at an Ulster SHC game in Casement back in the 90's and up to the early 00's until everything was changed.

I remember going to a few Ulster finals in Casement, mid to late 90's. There was a hell of a lot more than 4,000 at them too.

trailer

Quote from: Owenmoresider on June 13, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 13, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 13, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

Hard to argue with that, if anything, it'll widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

From a spectacle point of view (less mismatches), a tiered championship would work well but it's absolutely nothing to do with improving the lot of weaker counties. Better/more equal funding is the only way to achieve that

So you reckon the gap between Dublin and Wicklow, tyrone and antrim, mayo and London, Kerry and limerick will get wider with tiering. I would say the gap is already too wide to narrow within the next 20 years. Funding is something that people have only started to talk about in the last couple of years with the dominance of Dublin. The gap between the top teams and the rest was always there. Funding won't make a difference. Counties like Fermanagh and Wicklow have never won anything. counties like that get 2 championship games a year, 3 if they get a lucky draw. Where is the chance to progress? Tiers would at least give the weaker counties something to play for.
The problem is that, like with restoring the Divisions 1-4 setup over the 1A/1B/2A/2B a decade ago, is that the tiering will entrench the advantages the top teams have by playing each other regularly and raising the standards as a result. The problem isn't that the gaps to Wicklow, Antrim, London and Limerick will get bigger than they already are. It's that after a few years of it the gap to the likes of Laois, Down, Sligo and Tipperary will have got much wider than they already are. And like with Carlow in the hurling this year and Laois next year if they win the Joe MacDonagh Cup, that the team that goes up into the top tier will be chasing shadows and will go straight back down, and whoever follows them likewise.

As has been alluded to before, the push for tiering has little to do with concern for the weaker counties, it's driven to create an elite competition amongst the top teams and feed the media interest and generate greater revenue as a result. That Sligo might win a first round Joe Brolly Cup tie against Waterford in Nenagh is not what enthuses Croke Park about going down the road they have set themselves on.

How many AI's or even Leinster titles has Carlow hurlers won in this last 50 years?

So to be clear. If we don't tier the championship in football and keep things as they are then the gap from Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo, Galway etc to Antrim, Fermanagh, London, Wicklow, Leitrim, Derry etc will narrow and they'll all win provincial and AI titles. Is this what we are saying?




JoG2

Quote from: Owenmoresider on June 13, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 13, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 13, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

Hard to argue with that, if anything, it'll widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

From a spectacle point of view (less mismatches), a tiered championship would work well but it's absolutely nothing to do with improving the lot of weaker counties. Better/more equal funding is the only way to achieve that

So you reckon the gap between Dublin and Wicklow, tyrone and antrim, mayo and London, Kerry and limerick will get wider with tiering. I would say the gap is already too wide to narrow within the next 20 years. Funding is something that people have only started to talk about in the last couple of years with the dominance of Dublin. The gap between the top teams and the rest was always there. Funding won't make a difference. Counties like Fermanagh and Wicklow have never won anything. counties like that get 2 championship games a year, 3 if they get a lucky draw. Where is the chance to progress? Tiers would at least give the weaker counties something to play for.
The problem is that, like with restoring the Divisions 1-4 setup over the 1A/1B/2A/2B a decade ago, is that the tiering will entrench the advantages the top teams have by playing each other regularly and raising the standards as a result. The problem isn't that the gaps to Wicklow, Antrim, London and Limerick will get bigger than they already are. It's that after a few years of it the gap to the likes of Laois, Down, Sligo and Tipperary will have got much wider than they already are. And like with Carlow in the hurling this year and Laois next year if they win the Joe MacDonagh Cup, that the team that goes up into the top tier will be chasing shadows and will go straight back down, and whoever follows them likewise.

As has been alluded to before, the push for tiering has little to do with concern for the weaker counties, it's driven to create an elite competition amongst the top teams and feed the media interest and generate greater revenue as a result. That Sligo might win a first round Joe Brolly Cup tie against Waterford in Nenagh is not what enthuses Croke Park about going down the road they have set themselves on.

How much wider can the gap go really? It's huge at present.  The fact that these 4 teams play in a single tournament with the likes of Dublin, Kerry is ridiculous.

The 2nd bit in bold, sure if they're in the top 2 divisions (which they should be busting themselves to do, then they will compete in tier 1.

But in any proposals, ALL counties should start in Tier 1 through their provinces and maybe after rd 1 / rd 2 of qualifers drop down to tier 2, so EVERYONE has a chance of playing EVERYONE. Surely if a county has intentions of progressing then they'll be using the pre-season / league to gear towards the championship.

3rd bit in bold, alluded to by who? the majority of people I Know are happy enough with a tiered championship and we're not Croke Pk suits or in the media. Though in fairness, a Derry man I was sitting with at the game on Sat was dead against it. Din't really say why, just that 'it'll be a pile of balls'

I wondered if you were from one of the big hitters county wise so had a quick look at your posts), post 1 was

Best football memory: 1999 Sligo JFC Q-Final - Owenmore Gaels 1-7 Ballymote 1-6. How would Owenmore have gotten on in the SFC in Sligo that year?

trailer

Quote from: APM on June 13, 2019, 10:50:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 13, 2019, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 13, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
A couple of years after the introduction of tiering and Lenny Harbinson won't be getting asked his opinion too often I would say, as Antrim's serene progress into the latter stages of the Mickey Mouse Cup is equally serenely ignored by all and sundry.

Anyone talking about tiering in the context of improving the game in weaker counties is, quite frankly, talking through their hole.

The longer term rationale behind this is to move to an 8 team semi professional set up, the introduction of the super 8's and tiering are just waystations on the road to this. Getting the GPA in-house and onboard was another one of these.

John Horan and the Croke Park suits won't say this publicly of course, and I would give Horan the benefit of the doubt on this as he thinks he is being a leader when in fact he is a follower, but high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years.

Antrim's current progress is currently being ignored by all and sundry. Who's not going to turn up now? Antrim attendances are pathetic. An Ulsterbus would ferry their support about for God's sake. And we haven't even brought in tiering.

If you think this is about an 8 team semi professional setup then I'm afraid it is you who is "talking through their hole"

Can you please define who the "Croke Park suits" are? Names? Where the come from? How they got the jobs? Job terms?

"high ranking GPA members and media sources who are less inhibited have been openly advocating this for quite a number of years." Has it crossed your mind that the reason they have been advocating for this is because it might actually help the game?


Whose game is it going to help?

We have tiering in hurling? We're you in the Athletic Grounds last Saturday to see Tyrone being beaten by Armagh in the Rackard Cup.  I'd be shocked if there was 200 at it. 

Whose game is it going to help? It will give the media a product that they want which appears to be Croke Park's over riding objective and it seems to be media support that is one of their key performance indicators.  It will also help those with an "elitism" agenda - which I suspect includes yourself. 

What has Croke Park done to promote the GAA in Ireland's second city.  One of the biggest counties in Ireland is being increasingly lost to the GAA.  Some of the blame lies in Antrim, but if HQ gave even half the attention to Belfast as it does to Dublin in the last 10 years, Antrim would be in a much stronger position now.

We have tiering in hurling? We're you in the Athletic Grounds last Saturday to see Tyrone being beaten by Armagh in the Rackard Cup.  I'd be shocked if there was 200 at it. 

And what is a typical Tyrone crowd at a Hurling game before tiering?
I was at the USFC quarter final in the Athletic Grounds between Tyorne and Antrim and there was 5000 at it, with about 500 Antrim fans. Top level intercounty GAA game and that's the level of interest.

Antrim would want to sort themselves out for fucks sake. Blame the GAA and these Croke park suits all you want but the reality here is that Antrim GAA can barely tog a senior team out in same jerseys. Time people got real and stopped looking for excuses. Antrim and many other Div 3 & 4 teams are basket cases. Look at the mess Offaly is in. No point looking to the GAA when they can't even organise the basics. They don't deserve to be in the same competition until they learn to treat it with a little respect.

BennyCake

Trailer, Armagh played Tyrone in the Rackard semi in Inniskeen, not the Athletic Grounds.