Are NI Water Fit for Purpose?

[Hoof Hearted]

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it
*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

great post and nail on the head is hit with the word MONEY. I know it's the arguement with %99.99999 of every problem in the world, but No.1 in this case

[mournerambler]

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

[oakleafgael]

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

Read it again. Its those who have made illegal unknown and unmetered connections to the network that wanderer is referring to. I see this every working day where we are laying replacement mains and you get all sorts of approaches from farmers and landowners.

[oakleafgael]

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it
*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Wanderer,

An excellent post, I agree with the majority of it. The last paragrapg in particular is the root cause of the problem, as it is with most civil servant/public bodies. The NIW engineering and technical staff, without naming individuals who we probably both have to deal with, are well capable of doing there jobs but those who hold the purse strings havent a baldies notion.

[wanderer]

mournerambler, as oakleafgael said I'm chatting about the non metered connections and trust me there are a lot. I have been offered countless bribes to reconnect dodgy connections onto new pipes, and on one occasion threatened with "the boys" paying us a visit if we didn't comply.
Commercial metering is a must in my opinion for a large variety of reasons, mainly being you pay for what you get. Also if NI is in line with England and Scotland, business customers get somewhere between 2 weeks and a months notice for planned work which will affect their supply. This makes it a nightmare for contractors, cause even if they get ahead on a job they have to stand waiting on a set date to make a connection.
People think that drinkable water is a birth right, and treat the people that supply it with disdain in my experience. Throughout the boom people have generated a huge sense of their own importance, and you can't win in the infrastructure game. One half see work being done near their land as a cash cow, and claim all sorts of damage etc. The rest don't want the road closed, don't want the pavement closed, don't want work going on during working hours as it causes traffic, don't want work during night as its noisy, don't want work in fields as its their "best field" i.e. $$$, don't want work in parkland cause they have no where to walk the dog 
As oakleafgael said, there are loads of good people who do their best but there are at least the same number if not more deadwood. A lot of people have gotten to high positions through qualifications rather than working from the bottom up. As a result you have people with no clue instructing people who know what they are doing.

The great amusement of all this is the politicians complaining about lack of communication etc. Talk about pot and kettle. I've even seen someone on the news saying that it could take 10 years to update the infrastructure, what a joke, it might take that with unlimited funds but the reality is it would be 15-20+

[mournerambler]

I've been reading this with great interest over the past few days and thought I'd throw my thoughts down.

The basic problem is, and always will be money. The Water Service or whatever you want to call them now are run by and for people whose main motivation is cash. Same in Scotland, same in England (haven't worked in Wales so can't comment). As someone has said previously, there is a chronic lack of investment in infrastructure and to put the cherry on the cake the capital maintenance is poor to nonexistent.

IMHO the main issues are:

*Leakage (strictly speaking the wrong term but it'll do the job), basically unaccounted for water. The main problem with this is that there are a phenomenal number of illegal connections in NI. We have cattle troughs (for one example) overflowing 365 days that are connected to the mains and if they aren't overflowing they have invariably pipes above ground that go bang as soon as the thaw hits. Does the owner care? No chance, they aren't paying for it*Metering. As a rule (bar a few private companies in England), the metering UK wide and beyond is woeful. Once authorities start transferring water and supplementing between reservoirs the meters are useless, which as a result means you can't strategically target leaks. Again there is big money spent on Framework Suppliers (the biggest waste of money in history), meters are installed by private companies, who commission them, get handed back to Water Company, get a 1hour presentation, water company pay no money on maintenance, meters stop working, no one knows how to use them, investigation awarded to private company, private company suggest new meters, and the charade starts all over again
*Water Quality. The price we pay for getting the water quality we do, is to increase flow rates to get the water from treatment to tap quickly. Water is better as a result, but pipes are smaller. When something happens, network can't cope and the only location that gets fed water is the burst.
*Accountability. KPI's etc have been tried before, and can help to an extent but its like anything in that people find a way around it very quickly, and work the system. If I say a leak has to be sorted within 24hours, the powers that be soon figure that if we shut the water down that will stop the leak and then it is classed as "in repair".
I have worked on a job where a competitor came in at 33% less. The authority asked us to match the price, we couldn't and warned them that other party could not deliver for that price either. Competitor done it, ends up costing both parties over 120% of our original cost. 6months later I am sitting across the desk from the idiot who awarded the job, preaching about how our costs are again 33% too high. When we pointed out the final cost, yer man hadn't even heard about it going over budget cause too many people were covering their ass

I could go on and on with all the things that are wrong with the system but the main one is, and always will be money.

Also this such and such has to go, his position is untenable cr*p is part of the problem. No one wants to make a decision in case they get the blame, and so no proper decisions get made. People are employed in high positions that have absolutely no clue how water networks, demand, pressure etc works and laughably they are deciding how money is spent. When in reality they shouldn't be allowed to lift their head from their own spreadsheet.

Rant finished

Agricultural land owners, publicans & some commercial properties have been paying for water for a long time now, so that part of your rant doesnt add up imo.

Read it again. Its those who have made illegal unknown and unmetered connections to the network that wanderer is referring to. I see this every working day where we are laying replacement mains and you get all sorts of approaches from farmers and landowners.

Point taken, judgement somewhat clouded by the devils buttermilk 

[delboy]

I could have swore the rates was made up of the district rates which is the council basically and the regional rates which amongst other things pays towards water and sewage.

Heres a quote from a local council website

"Regional Rate - what is it used for?

The Regional Rate is set by Central Government and local Councils HAVE NO control over this. It is the same for all 26 Councils and is used to contribute to the cost of providing a range of services such as: - Education, Housing, Social Services, Roads, Water and Sewerage."

It would at least seem that there might still be some confusion on the matter.

The regional rate simply goes into the NI Executive's "pot", and it only makes up 5% of the total of the Executive's "income". As it's not hypothecated it could be said to be a contribution towards any of the services funded by the Executive.

Also metering strikes me as highly regressive, despite being a small family that would probably not suffer from it my natural sense of fair play would be irked by seeing a struggling large but low income family paying a large proportion of their income to pay for a fundamental commidity and human right (i don't think thats fair).

I think paying for a utility based on the amount of useage is inherently fair.

Would you expect some people to have their electricity, or oil, or gas subsidised by other people who are using less?

So in reality we don't know who much of the rates is going towards the water, there is confusion on the matter which is all i claimed.

You already have social energy tariffs for vunerable people who suffer from fuel poverty. Water is a special case as its a basic human right as stated in UN regulations, payment should be based also on the ability to pay not just a regressive tax on usage end off, try to think beyond your own wallet, you might find it more rewarding in the long run. 

[Hereiam]

You would find that as much of the rates goes to NI Water as road and fuel tax goes to the roads.  Very little money collected actually goes to targeted schemes it all goes to the big pot.

And all goes to the MOD the bomb the shite outa other countries

[Minder]

Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

[orangeman]

Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

Not a chance.

Not with the might of the DUP behind him. 

[Minder]

Lawrence McKenzie, chief exec, resigns. Conor Murphy will be getting it tight now.

Not a chance.

Not with the might of the DUP behind him. 

I don't think he will resign, but in a normal political environment he would probably be forced into it.

[bailestil]

TYP, 300 redundancies is the tip of the iceberg in NIW.

I'm sure that when i was there they were talking about their workforce being halved from moving to GoCo in 2007 to now. Which is some going.
(maybe oakleafgael etc can confirm)

They also set the target of becoming the #1 Utility company in the uk by 2014. Good luck with that!

I accept the vast majority of those gone were deadwood. But i suspect many good employees who could hack it in the private sector, went, leaving a pretty big brain drain.

[illdecide]

I deal with NI water almost every day and i have to say majority of them are hard working and decent lads, as someone stated it the top of the ladder where all the problems are. They are also so under staffed it's not funny (the sections i deal with) any person who either left or took redundancy was not replaced and the ordinary foot solider had his work load doubled, now i do accept that they get exceptional holidays and conditions that most in the private sector do not get but blame the chiefs not the Indians...

As for the topic way back about the "Quick Thaw", i don't know what a quick thaw had to do with anything. When water freezes it expands, when it expands thats when the damage is done. when the thaw happens and the pipe contracts the pipe is already damaged so i can't see how thawing in a few hours rather than a week would make any difference

[EC Unique]

I deal with NI water almost every day and i have to say majority of them are hard working and decent lads, as someone stated it the top of the ladder where all the problems are. They are also so under staffed it's not funny (the sections i deal with) any person who either left or took redundancy was not replaced and the ordinary foot solider had his work load doubled, now i do accept that they get exceptional holidays and conditions that most in the private sector do not get but blame the chiefs not the Indians...

As for the topic way back about the "Quick Thaw", i don't know what a quick thaw had to do with anything. When water freezes it expands, when it expands thats when the damage is done. when the thaw happens and the pipe contracts the pipe is already damaged so i can't see how thawing in a few hours rather than a week would make any difference

If it were a slow thaw the same number of problems would have occured but maybe over a larger period of time leading to a smaller back log/less pressure on staff, plumbers and call centers.

[illdecide]

Fair enough