The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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imtommygunn


Milltown Row2

So be no different if talking about the OJ trial as it happened, views will be posted rightly or wrongly and hearsay will be voiced but ultimately it's down to the 9 men 3 woman and lady Judge!

And us taxpayers paying for it!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Orior

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

Orior

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

But on a serious note, this is all part of the new Social Media world. Information is no longer for the privileged few, and everything is up for  discussion by everyone.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

gallsman

Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Orior

Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Well MR2 started it.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

gallsman

Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Well MR2 started it.

You said earlier you've daughters? I wonder will you be so quick to infer people are stupid and up for it for having the temerity to dress up for a night out and go to a house party when its your own flesh and blood involved. They'll grow up and wear short skirts and fake tan, they'll get pissed, they'll have sex, maybe even with people they've just met . I wonder if you'll find it all so f**king hilarious then, but I doubt it.

David McKeown

My musings on the day as was reported would be as follows:

1. The suggestion that the prosecution were able to bring up PJ's defence strikes me as odd unless that had already been put to the witness (but for whatever reason not reported in the press).

2.  The female witness who opened the door for less than a minute is interesting. My feeling is she is not the witness refered to by the defence last week. The one the IP may have been afraid was filming. That witness is either a different  witness to the one who took the stand today or else would have given a statement to the effect of what was put to the injured party. If it's the former then that defence witness is still to come or if it's the later I would have expected lengthy cross examination of why she gave a different version of events to police. The witness today seemed to be asked very few questions by the defence.
On that point whilst today's witness did seem to undermine PJ's contention that he did not have sex with the IP it does not seem to have aided the prosecution in regards either to Olding/McIlroy prosecution nor in respect of what appears to be the other matters at issue I.e. Did the IP consent or did the defendants have a reasonable belief she consented. On that basis I find it strange that the prosecution would have call her and can therefore only assume that we are missing some pertinent details about her evidence. 

3. The only reports I've seen about the other witness seem to be that she only gave inadmissible hearsay evidence. Again I presume that's not the case and something relevant hasn't been reported.

All in all there's nothing I've read today or over this trial to dissuade me from my original position that we simply are not getting all the evidence the jury are and therefore id be very slow to rush to judgement on this case.
2022 Allianz League Prediction Competition Winner

Syferus

Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Well MR2 started it.

You said earlier you've daughters? I wonder will you be so quick to infer people are stupid and up for it for having the temerity to dress up for a night out and go to a house party when its your own flesh and blood involved. They'll grow up and wear short skirts and fake tan, they'll get pissed, they'll have sex, maybe even with people they've just met . I wonder if you'll find it all so f**king hilarious then, but I doubt it.

Of course they won't. The inability to even attempt to put yourself in the mindset of a woman seems to be beyond a large swath of this forum, be it rape, abortion or even pay gaps. This is in no way a fair society and those comfortable with that unfairness are happy to hide beyond wessel words and innuendo.

But of course if it was their kin the tune would change because their comfortable unchallenged worldview will have been spoiled beyond repair.

Asal Mor

Quote from: David McKeown on February 14, 2018, 12:15:42 AM
My musings on the day as was reported would be as follows:

1. The suggestion that the prosecution were able to bring up PJ's defence strikes me as odd unless that had already been put to the witness (but for whatever reason not reported in the press).

2.  The female witness who opened the door for less than a minute is interesting. My feeling is she is not the witness refered to by the defence last week. The one the IP may have been afraid was filming. That witness is either a different  witness to the one who took the stand today or else would have given a statement to the effect of what was put to the injured party. If it's the former then that defence witness is still to come or if it's the later I would have expected lengthy cross examination of why she gave a different version of events to police. The witness today seemed to be asked very few questions by the defence.
On that point whilst today's witness did seem to undermine PJ's contention that he did not have sex with the IP it does not seem to have aided the prosecution in regards either to Olding/McIlroy prosecution nor in respect of what appears to be the other matters at issue I.e. Did the IP consent or did the defendants have a reasonable belief she consented. On that basis I find it strange that the prosecution would have call her and can therefore only assume that we are missing some pertinent details about her evidence. 

3. The only reports I've seen about the other witness seem to be that she only gave inadmissible hearsay evidence. Again I presume that's not the case and something relevant hasn't been reported.

All in all there's nothing I've read today or over this trial to dissuade me from my original position that we simply are not getting all the evidence the jury are and therefore id be very slow to rush to judgement on this case.
You're far too reasoned for this thread David. If you want to be a proper Internet debater you need to pick a side and stick to it. Then just cherry-pick the parts of the reports that suit your argument. Take it from me, once you've felt you've felt the rush of petty point scoring, you'll never look back.

imtommygunn

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 10:37:53 PM
So be no different if talking about the OJ trial as it happened, views will be posted rightly or wrongly and hearsay will be voiced but ultimately it's down to the 9 men 3 woman and lady Judge!

And us taxpayers paying for it!

The thread wouldn't be what it was without the media. My point is not about the thread. It's human nature. It's about the detail in the media.

Not sure what taxpayers has to do with it. We pay for a criminal justice system. The bit in the middle isn't that relevant.

Whatever the outcome these people are judged probably for the rest of their lives. For whoever the innocent party is that is bad- though we live in a guilty till proven otherwise society these days.

MoChara

Quote from: imtommygunn on February 14, 2018, 07:45:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 10:37:53 PM
So be no different if talking about the OJ trial as it happened, views will be posted rightly or wrongly and hearsay will be voiced but ultimately it's down to the 9 men 3 woman and lady Judge!

And us taxpayers paying for it!

The thread wouldn't be what it was without the media. My point is not about the thread. It's human nature. It's about the detail in the media.

Not sure what taxpayers has to do with it. We pay for a criminal justice system. The bit in the middle isn't that relevant.

Whatever the outcome these people are judged probably for the rest of their lives. For whoever the innocent party is that is bad- though we live in a guilty till proven otherwise society these days.


And maybe even for a good while after

Orior

Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Well MR2 started it.

You said earlier you've daughters? I wonder will you be so quick to infer people are stupid and up for it for having the temerity to dress up for a night out and go to a house party when its your own flesh and blood involved. They'll grow up and wear short skirts and fake tan, they'll get pissed, they'll have sex, maybe even with people they've just met . I wonder if you'll find it all so f**king hilarious then, but I doubt it.

I can find humour in all of the worst situations. It is a gift. Thank you.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

RedHand88

Quote from: Syferus on February 14, 2018, 12:58:18 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 11:36:19 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 13, 2018, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 13, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
Are posters not just posting what's been on the media?

I heard the girls only want back to the house to play Scrabble and they are huge Scrabble fanatics.

You're some twat.

Well MR2 started it.

You said earlier you've daughters? I wonder will you be so quick to infer people are stupid and up for it for having the temerity to dress up for a night out and go to a house party when its your own flesh and blood involved. They'll grow up and wear short skirts and fake tan, they'll get pissed, they'll have sex, maybe even with people they've just met . I wonder if you'll find it all so f**king hilarious then, but I doubt it.

Of course they won't. The inability to even attempt to put yourself in the mindset of a woman seems to be beyond a large swath of this forum, be it rape, abortion or even pay gaps. This is in no way a fair society and those comfortable with that unfairness are happy to hide beyond wessel words and innuendo.

But of course if it was their kin the tune would change because their comfortable unchallenged worldview will have been spoiled beyond repair.

Men in the north earn less than women. Is this the pay gap you're referring to?

Hound

Quote from: sid waddell on February 13, 2018, 06:33:27 PM
Personally I think it has been a pretty disastrous day for the defence.

The witness who entered the room said she "100% saw sex" between Jackson and the complainant and the description of the position of the three people on the bed tallies perfectly with the complainant's. When people refer to "sex" they are not referring to dry humping, digital penetration or anything else except vaginal sex - that contradicts Jackson's story.

Witness testimony has backed up the complainant about her state of drunkenness or otherwise. That the complainant was "intoxicated" was a central narrative of defence cross examination.

The witness who entered the room has stated that there were no signs of the complainant positively consenting.

A few seconds is more than enough to establish whether sex is going on. It's a lot harder to establish whether a rape is occurring, and anybody who walked in is not going to automatically think of rape - it's highly unlikely they would - so the witness not suspecting a rape was going on is quite consistent with the complainant's story too.

I think the bit about Olding ending up lying on the sofa beside one of the witnesses is also very interesting. Apart from the obvious creepy aspect of him deciding to sleep on a sofa beside a young woman who had vomited at the party and was asleep by the time he'd decided to plonk himself down there (did he try anything on with a woman who was asleep, one wonders?), it undermines the defence story that Olding had previously gone upstairs - and to Jackson's bedroom no less - to crash out. That was a narrative which already looked very shaky but looks even more so after today.

Why would you just cherry pick all the points that were helpful to the prosecution and completely ignore all the points that were helpful to the defence?

I think your Olding paragraph is absolute nonsense, but the rest is spot on and is indeed good for the prosecution. But you left out the other side, that while the witness did not see consent actively given, what she witnessed seemed consensual. And in now way was the girl frozen. She was actively given Olding oral, while his hands were by his side, so no physical force being used. And when the IP saw the witness, she did not yell for help that these two lads were raping here, instead she turned her head away to hide her face.

That's all very unhelpful for the prosecution, but as you said, if it really is PJ's story that he didn't penetrate, then that would seem to have been caught out as a lie. Doesn't make him guilty but severely questions his credibility. Goes to the earlier comments that saying nothing to the police would have been wiser, as the temptation to exaggerate or lie when being accused of something, if you thought it would help you (regardless of whether you are actually guilty or not), must be great.