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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Author Topic: Clerical abuse!  (Read 186501 times)

Caid

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2009, 09:29:52 PM »
Just listened to a fella from Limerick who was put into an industrial school at three, re recalled the sexual, physical and psychological absuse he and others suffered at the hands of some of the brothers at the school. he stated that the night watchman reported this to the school, the church and the state, giving names of the brothers who were doing this and nothing happened.

It was a terrible story to listen to and no doubt one that happened to many and innocent person over many years, a terrible terrible thing indeed

Just finished reading a book by a Limerick fella John Devane (Nobody heard me cry).  My mother bought it for me for xmas and to be honest it isn't the sort of book I qould have bought meself.  But it is a real eye opener to the extent of Paedophilia in 1960's and 1970's Ireland.  And i'm not just talking about priests, but also lawyers, Gardai, celebrities etc.  What is almost as bad is that the victims often had no one to tell.  

Def worth a read though it is somewhat distressing (and graphic)
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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2009, 09:48:35 PM »
Main story on the UK Independent

Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools
By Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press

A fiercely debated, nine-year investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorised thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.


High Court Justice Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse, which is based on testimony from thousands of former students and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public, so that children in Ireland never endure such suffering again.

But most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals.

Wednesday's five-volume report sides almost completely with the former students' accounts. It concludes that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.

"A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from," the report concluded.

The commission said overwhelming, consistent testimony from still-traumatized men and women, now in their 50s to 80s, had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential.

The report proposed 21 ways the government could recognize past wrongs, including building a permanent memorial, providing counseling and education to victims and improving Ireland's current child protection services.

But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

Irish church leaders and religious orders all declined to comment Wednesday, citing the need to read the massive document first. The Vatican also declined to comment.

The Irish government already has funded a parallel compensation system that has paid 12,000 abuse victims an average of €65,000 ($90,000). About 2,000 claims remain outstanding.

Victims receive the payouts only if they waive their rights to sue the state and the church. Hundreds have rejected that condition and taken their abusers and those church employers to court.

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

"The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care," the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders — that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this opinion as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children.

But the commission said its fact-finding — which included unearthing decades-old church files, chiefly stored in the Vatican, on scores of unreported abuse cases from Ireland's industrial schools — demonstrated that officials understood exactly what was at stake: their own reputations.

It cited numerous examples where school managers told police about child abusers who were not church officials — but never did this when one of their own had committed the crime.

"Contrary to the congregations' claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse," it said.

Religious orders were chiefly concerned about preventing scandal, not the danger to children, it said.

The commission also condemned Ireland's Education Department for aiding the abusive culture through infrequent, toothless inspections that deferred to church authority.

Inspectors were supposed to restrict the use of corporal punishment and make sure the children were adequately fed, clothed and educated — but the report called those inspections "fundamentally flawed."

It said a lone inspector was responsible for monitoring more than 50 industrial schools, schools were told about the visits in advance and inspectors rarely talked to the children.

Wednesday's report also highlighted the rarity of human kindness in the institutions.

"A word of consideration or encouragement, or an act of sympathy or understanding, had a profound effect. Adults in their 60s and 70s recalled seemingly insignificant events that had remained with them all their lives," the report said.

"Often the act of kindness, recalled in such a positive light, arose from the simple fact that the staff member had not given a beating when one was expected."

www.childabusecommission.ie/

Donagh

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2009, 09:48:51 PM »
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?

But surely the point is that the State were "in charge" of the children and as such it is the State who are ultimately responsible for placing them there in the first place and turning a blind eye to the abuse. Article 40.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann: "The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen". The State were responsible for these children and by their laws, sent them to these schools knowing full well what was happening there. Just as the modern establishment Parties feathered their own nests with the help of the property developers, back then they weren't prepared to rock the boat lest it should hammer their political careers.

All Catholic Priests take a vow of obedience to their Bishop and breaking that vow can lead to them being stripped of their ministry or even excommunicated. Now you might not think that is a big deal but to someone of faith it is the last thing they would risk, even after their life. The vast majority of Catholic priests were and still are very good and humble men.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 09:50:27 PM by Donagh »
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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2009, 09:55:34 PM »
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?

But surely the point is that the State were "in charge" of the children and as such it is the State who are ultimately responsible for placing them there in the first place and turning a blind eye to the abuse. Article 40.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann: "The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen". The State were responsible for these children and by their laws, sent them to these schools knowing full well what was happening there. Just as the modern establishment Parties feathered their own nests with the help of the property developers, back then they weren't prepared to rock the boat lest it should hammer their political careers.

All Catholic Priests take a vow of obedience to their Bishop and breaking that vow can lead to them being stripped of their ministry or even excommunicated. Now you might not think that is a big deal but to someone of faith it is the last thing they would want. The vast majority of Catholic priests were and still are very good and humble men.

I have not read the full report but I have been listening to the news and reading the papers and to me it seems that this report is laying the vast majoity of the blame on the church. Do you agree that this is what this report is doing?
These priests made plenty of vows before and broke them all - any muppet can take a vow. What happens when the bishop is corrupt like the ones that moved Brendan Smith around the country where he abused everywhere he went. The report above paints a picture of a pathetic church trying to defend the indefensible and then when it is over coming out with apologies. The christian brothers sued to prevent members being named and then issue a "heartfelt" apology today.

I have nothing against a man (or woman) having a relationship with God. Why you would want middle men like the church involved is beyond me.

ardmhachaabu

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2009, 10:04:39 PM »
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 

grow up gnevin and shove your athiestic bullshit up your opinionated hole.
Very well said stew
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Donagh

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2009, 10:06:04 PM »
I have not read the full report but I have been listening to the news and reading the papers and to me it seems that this report is laying the vast majoity of the blame on the church. Do you agree that this is what this report is doing?
These priests made plenty of vows before and broke them all - any muppet can take a vow. What happens when the bishop is corrupt like the ones that moved Brendan Smith around the country where he abused everywhere he went. The report above paints a picture of a pathetic church trying to defend the indefensible and then when it is over coming out with apologies. The christian brothers sued to prevent members being named and then issue a "heartfelt" apology today.

I have nothing against a man (or woman) having a relationship with God. Why you would want middle men like the church involved is beyond me.

I do agree it seems to be laying the blame at the door of the Church but I wouldn't have expected any different from a State sponsored report. I also know many of these Priests broke their vows but you asked why there wasn't an outcry from the 'good' Priests - I am suggesting that they would have been the ones that kept their vows by trying to go through the Bishops and as such were silenced. To get a little of the Priests perspective you have to understand that those who break their vow of obedience to the Bishop will be seen as being guilty of the 'sin of pride' or a preoccupation with the self - the 'original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise' - as Wiki helpfully points out. The 'good' Priest is always obedient and does not work outside the system. 
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pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2009, 10:06:40 PM »
Quote
Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.
Most will say nothing, we've waited years on them to say something.

That said, our local priest (a good sort), a couple of years ago done mass at either christmas or easter (some special occassion). It was clear early on he'd a couple jars in him too! But anyway after holy communion he got up and started to preach again, talked about 10 minutes about some candle stick holder in the chapel and moved on to the subject of child abuse and preached for another 15 minutes, almost breaking down on a number of occasions!, on the disgrace it was, how all priests were being tarred with the one brush, how he and most of them had only good intentions, how embarrassed and disgusted he was at what went on etc etc.  So fair play to him.  It's a pity more wouldnt open their gobs.  
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comethekingdom

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2009, 10:07:51 PM »
This has made headlines on BBC news at 10!!!!!!!! :o :o

pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2009, 10:08:49 PM »
Quote
I also know many of these Priests broke their vows but you asked why there wasn't an outcry from the 'good' Priests - I am suggesting that they would have been the ones that kept their vows by trying to go through the Bishops and as such were silenced. To get a little of the Priests perspective you have to understand that those who break their vow of obedience to the Bishop will be seen as being guilty of the 'sin of pride' or a preoccupation with the self - the 'original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise' - as Wiki helpfully points out. The 'good' Priest is always obedient and does not work outside the system.
I dont buy that donagh, any clown with an ounce of common sense would hardly think that they should continue to let a child be abused because they took a vow!
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ardmhachaabu

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2009, 10:14:04 PM »
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.
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midLouth

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2009, 10:14:39 PM »
This has made headlines on BBC news at 10!!!!!!!! :o :o

It is going to make headlines worldwide similar to those the abuse of children that happened in Jersey that was uncovered in the last couple of years.

Gnevin

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2009, 10:18:18 PM »
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .

God did not have these priests do what they did, he had no hand in it and he has said that we all will be judged. the fact is people need to understand that these scumbags were false teachers and that they were only in the priesthood to satisfy their bloodlust & unnatural urges. God was a smokescreen for their putrid acts. The Church is not without blame, especially the Popes of the different eras, instead of makin JP 2 a saint they should be holding him accountable posthumously for his abject failure to stop the awful human misery some of his vicars pawned off on those they were supposed to support and teach.
 
Rememeber in the old teastiment God use to take a more direct approach with evil doers . In what why are their urges unnatural if god designed them that way? Surely god intended them to be sick and perverted?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:22:01 PM by Gnevin »
Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling.

mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2009, 10:23:41 PM »
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.

ardmhachaabu

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2009, 10:27:15 PM »
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.
You didn't read what I typed carefully enough.  You clearly hate the Church, you have made that abundantly clear on any number of occasions, I get it, it bores me to death listening to you bang on about it every time you get a chance but I do get it.

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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2009, 10:34:52 PM »
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.
You didn't read what I typed carefully enough.  You clearly hate the Church, you have made that abundantly clear on any number of occasions, I get it, it bores me to death listening to you bang on about it every time you get a chance but I do get it.



I don't hate anything but what is clear is that when you have no argument left you attack the messenger. We are talking about the abuse and destruction of the lives of little children and you bring it down to accusing me of hating of the church. Maybe you should be a little ashamed too. When people talk of the church covering up abuse they of course are talking about senior authorities in the church. However, it also follows that a large number of normal priests had to have known about this and did nothing. It does not mean that every priest knew nor does it mean that every priest is bad.