Poll

We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Author Topic: Clerical abuse!  (Read 163067 times)

Gnevin

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 06:42:49 PM »
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That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .
Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling.

Declan

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 07:01:24 PM »
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but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion

Correct - me included

AFS

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 07:31:08 PM »
Channel 4 news running big with this

Maguire01

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2009, 07:49:07 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
I would in no way try to defend what has gone on LRTF - in fact i'd be vocal in condemning all that has gone on, but 'stew' may be talking about priests today, rather than priests back at that time, who may have looked on. There are plenty of priests now who are in their 'jobs' for the right reasons - they too get tarred with the same brush.

And we can't just talk about priests looking the other way when everyone else was doing the same - but yes, as the saying goes, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2009, 08:01:17 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
A lot of c***ts looked the other way, not just the clergy, for god sakes the children's parent's looked the other way!!! or put them in to these homes to be abused, or threw their daughters out of the house if they became pregnant etc 

I just dont understand how the church could have such control. Was talking to my mother recently about this actually when she was criticising some of the priests years ago getting involved in family situations (one story was about a priest landing to a woman's door to get her to take back the husband that had been beating her) and my response was that it was the people's fault for allowing the priest to do that when they should have been told to f**k off.  Her response was "you didn't go against the priests, you wouldnt be able to go to mass, they wouldnt give you communion etc".  Wtf? So what?

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 


Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

theskull1

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2009, 08:29:21 PM »

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 


Just in the same way future generations will fail to understand the failings of this generation pints. Unless you were living in that time it's impossible to understand whilst having our current view of the world
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stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 08:31:30 PM »
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 

grow up gnevin and shove your athiestic bullshit up your opinionated hole.
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stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 08:38:38 PM »
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .

God did not have these priests do what they did, he had no hand in it and he has said that we all will be judged. the fact is people need to understand that these scumbags were false teachers and that they were only in the priesthood to satisfy their bloodlust & unnatural urges. God was a smokescreen for their putrid acts. The Church is not without blame, especially the Popes of the different eras, instead of makin JP 2 a saint they should be holding him accountable posthumously for his abject failure to stop the awful human misery some of his vicars pawned off on those they were supposed to support and teach.
 
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stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 08:48:23 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Two wors why pog, social stigma.

I was told in the point by the archdeacon that if my kids went to attend a school that was about to open that was integrated that my kids would not be allowed to make their first holy communion. It was all i could do not to tell him to fcuk away off as i was fit to be tied, i would have but the wife was with me telling me with that look to shut up. She proceeded to tell the b**tard that not only where they going to attend but that if he so much as attempted to do what he was suggesting that the media would land on his doorstep and she would see him in court. The kids went to the integrated school and two years after that we emigrated but if we hadnt they would have made their holy communion in mary queen of peace in the point.

Although she handled it very well i still think my way of telling the old todger to feck away aff was the way to go. I am just as happy in a protestant Church as I am my own and I have not confessed my sins to anyone other that the man himself in over 30 years.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
A lot of c***ts looked the other way, not just the clergy, for god sakes the children's parent's looked the other way!!! or put them in to these homes to be abused, or threw their daughters out of the house if they became pregnant etc 

I just dont understand how the church could have such control. Was talking to my mother recently about this actually when she was criticising some of the priests years ago getting involved in family situations (one story was about a priest landing to a woman's door to get her to take back the husband that had been beating her) and my response was that it was the people's fault for allowing the priest to do that when they should have been told to f**k off.  Her response was "you didn't go against the priests, you wouldnt be able to go to mass, they wouldnt give you communion etc".  Wtf? So what?

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 



Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 08:51:41 PM »
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but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion

Correct - me included

These people were not God fearing people Declan. They were wolves in sheeps clothing ffs, they will answer to the god they claimed to love and they will be found wanting.

Dont let the likes of this affect your belief in God. This is mans work not Gods.

The christain faith has been under attack from it's inception and will always be under attack, if you abuse children physically, mentally or in any way, shape or form and you are in the clergy you are a false teacher and give not one shite about the God you claimed to love or the flock you lead.
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stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 08:56:01 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
I would in no way try to defend what has gone on LRTF - in fact i'd be vocal in condemning all that has gone on, but 'stew' may be talking about priests today, rather than priests back at that time, who may have looked on. There are plenty of priests now who are in their 'jobs' for the right reasons - they too get tarred with the same brush.

And we can't just talk about priests looking the other way when everyone else was doing the same - but yes, as the saying goes, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

Like judges, mechanics and for example nurses and doctors, there are ggood and bad people in the clergy of all faiths be they Christian, Muslim, jewish etc. Good men did do nothing however this report to me is the cornerstone that ensures this never happens again in Ireland and only good can come from it after the pain subsides and the dust settles. Future generations will probably look back in astonishment at our ineptitude on this matter............... well that and disgust.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 08:57:28 PM »
We will get this crap now about how everyone knew and did nothing. Its called spreading the blame to dilute it. Well I'm sorry, it is a load of shite. The people to take full blame are the catholic church as they were responsible for the keep of these people. Today many of the groups within the church apologised again and proclaimed their shame at what happened under their care. They allowed sadists and paedophilles to get into their clergy and did nothing when they knew. No priests to my knowledge ever made waves about the issue - surely if there are so many "good" priests some of them would have taken the side of the innocent child???? Those priests and bishops that turned a blind eye are just as guilty as the other f**kers. We also be told that the parents of these kids are to blame for putting them into these places in the first place too. More bullshit. Most of these kids were born out of wedlock and your same catholic priests demonised single mothers and shamed them into this action. Some had to leave home for ever and some opted to put the child in care, probably after being told they would be looked after. Personally I'd withhold all funding to the church until they pay for all the court cases and claims that our idiotic government decided to pay for them. It is also a absolute disgrace that no prosecutions will result. I'd like to see prosecutions against the abusers and the bishops that did nothing (for with holding evidence)
I realise some devout catholics will struggle to square this report with their beliefs but the truth is out now and the church has been laid bare in front of you (or at least the church of that time). This report has said that abuse (sexual and physical) was "endemic" in these homes. That is a very very strong word. Has it changed today? I don't know.

Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.

Donagh

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 09:21:15 PM »
We will get this crap now about how everyone knew and did nothing. Its called spreading the blame to dilute it. Well I'm sorry, it is a load of shite. The people to take full blame are the catholic church as they were responsible for the keep of these people. Today many of the groups within the church apologised again and proclaimed their shame at what happened under their care. They allowed sadists and paedophilles to get into their clergy and did nothing when they knew. No priests to my knowledge ever made waves about the issue - surely if there are so many "good" priests some of them would have taken the side of the innocent child???? Those priests and bishops that turned a blind eye are just as guilty as the other f**kers. We also be told that the parents of these kids are to blame for putting them into these places in the first place too. More bullshit. Most of these kids were born out of wedlock and your same catholic priests demonised single mothers and shamed them into this action. Some had to leave home for ever and some opted to put the child in care, probably after being told they would be looked after. Personally I'd withhold all funding to the church until they pay for all the court cases and claims that our idiotic government decided to pay for them. It is also a absolute disgrace that no prosecutions will result. I'd like to see prosecutions against the abusers and the bishops that did nothing (for with holding evidence)
I realise some devout catholics will struggle to square this report with their beliefs but the truth is out now and the church has been laid bare in front of you (or at least the church of that time). This report has said that abuse (sexual and physical) was "endemic" in these homes. That is a very very strong word. Has it changed today? I don't know.

Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.

I'm afraid your obvious lack of knowledge of even the basics tends to dilute your argument Myles. The vast majority of those in the industrial schools were young offenders not born out of wedlock as you claim. Let's not forget also that it was the State judicial system which sent these people to these places for petty crimes. For info on the basic and about who knew have a look at this:

http://www.paddydoyle.com/historyofneglect.html

Some excerpts below:

1946- Fr. Flanagan, famous founder of Boystown schools for orphans and delinquents in the US, visits Irish industrial schools. He describes them as “a national disgrace,” leading to a public debate in the Daíl and media. State and Church pressure forces him to leave Ireland.

1949- Minister of Education General Mulcahey received complaints from Cork City Council about Greenmount IS. A visit is arranged (with advanced warning) and the case is dismissed.

1951- State Inspector denounced conditions of industrial schools and care of children.

1952- State funding to industrial schools increased.

1955- Secretary of the Department of Education visited Daingean Industrial School, Offaly, and found that “the cows are better fed than the boys.” Nothing was done for another 16 years.

It goes on...
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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2009, 09:26:42 PM »
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?

theskull1

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2009, 09:26:56 PM »
Like judges, mechanics and for example nurses and doctors, there are ggood and bad people in the clergy of all faiths be they Christian, Muslim, jewish etc. Good men did do nothing however this report to me is the cornerstone that ensures this never happens again in Ireland and only good can come from it after the pain subsides and the dust settles. Future generations will probably look back in astonishment at our ineptitude on this matter............... well that and disgust.

Yeah so all the good priests let themselves be governed by the institution rather than the word of god. Pretty damning for them to listen to their superiors rather than the big man himself but yet thats OK. Surely all their studying of theology should have given them the courage to stand up and be counted and be damned by the evil doers if it came to it for eternal happiness awaited them for their brave deeded. But they didn't and will be damned to hell for not doing anything. When they knew so much was at stake.......we really need to get an answer as to why none of them dealt with this abuse when they had evidence of it.

In those days people worshiped those in higher authority than themselves and were encouraged to see their subservience to them as a path to god (e.g The master in the house was closer to god than the servants, so to get to god they had to do it through serving the master of the house....I read that in a catholic doctrine publication from about 60 years ago....it really is hard to believe nowadays). So it is easy to understand potentially abusive power the doctor, the teacher(I heard they had their fair share as well), and finally the priest had over their minions.

Not the place I go looking for a moral compass anymore.
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