Farming.

[moysider]

I wouldn't have much first-hand experience Moy but I'm fairly certain my father had something similar with a (male) vet who seemed to cut the cow open readily enough and maybe two got infected afterwards, at least one of which died. AFAIK, he told the practice owner he didn't want that vet out again.

So your dad couldn't get the calf out but is unhappy that the vet concurred that he couldn't get the calf out and preformed a section? Lads help me out here, when you couldn't manage to calve the cow yourselves why the unholy outrage when the vet finds that they can't calve it either. Explain why there's one rule for them and a completely different rule for you?

Fairly simple really, he's called out dozens of vets over the years in similar circumstances and has never seen one behave like this fella did.

Last calf of the year Thursday evening and it was a close run thing!

Big calf and one of our smaller cows that just survived a bad bout of photosensitization last August and was indoors since last August until early this May.

I knew it could end in grief but I decided to go with the jack even though I had alarm bells ringing all over the place. Usually, with what I was presented with, I would have rang our vet practice, but after our experiences earlier this year I decided to go for broke. I had 3 sections already, 2 of which I thought were unnecessary and all of which were not satisfactory. The cows that were sectioned in Feb. are still raw. The most recent one did not knit together at all and still has a 'very' open wound. I won t have to take out her stitches because the whole op. site just sloughed off - stitches and all. Only pour-on for flies and antiseptic spray is preventing a right mess.

So I decided to pull this last calf. I began to regret it immediately. Getting ropes on the feet took 10 mins. even though she pushed him out as far as she could ( turned out his face was swollen from the pressure). Then the fun began. Even though the calf's head was well presented there was no give when we tried to hand pull. So on to the jack. Usually you can pop the calf's head easily enough using the jack as a lever rather than just ratcheting all the time - that s the way to do when you resort to the jack.

When the head popped the mother went down and jack slipped a bit but managed to get the calf clear to midriff and stopped and took the pressure off him and got him breathing.  Water in the ear. little finger up the nose etc. He was in a bit of distress and started bawling a bit but that was a good sign as well. His lungs were A+. He was strong as an ox but I was hoping that his head/shoulders were bigger than his hips or we were fucked. We were talking millimetres. I tried to turn him a bit so that his presentation would match the mother's pelvis at the widest but forget that !!! well, maybe in hindsight I may have made a difference.

Even before we reached the hip stage we ran out of jack and we had to move the ropes above the knees to continue. It came as pleasant surprise that there was no jam at the hips. It was just a gradual pull and that was some bloody relief!!! We stopped pulling before the calf was fully born and the naval cord was still intact. This can help a calf recover.

I wasn t too worried about the mother because during the pull there was no ominous snaps or cracking sounds that indicate a broken pelvis/ligament/ nerve damage that usually ends up very badly. She staggered to her feet shortly after and her back feet did a good impression of John Cleese's goosestep.  Her strange gait did not stop her throwing a few well aimed kicks when I had to milk her shortly after. I don t mind that because she is a very pleasant character most of the time. She bonded with the calf straight away, but the calf was beat. Alive and breathing but badly squeezed and bruised.

It was outdoors as well and the weather was more like March than almost June. We milked the mother (a few kicks were thrown), and the calf fed a bit reluctantly. A few hours later it was obvious he needed a bit of tlc so we brought him indoors. His breathing was fine. Squeezed calves are often panters. They take short breaths and are difficult to feed and are slow to get up. They often need a hot lamp and a few feeds by stomach tube.
  This was too big for 2 to carry any distance let 400yards so transport box was the mode. Mother wouldn t leave where she calved so she had to be coaxed and cajoled in after with nuts.

Even though the calf was strong he would not suck from a hand held feeder too well and it was hard work, but I only use stomach tubing when all else fails .
Then his naval started to bleed. I noticed a few drips when I was putting some iodine on him bit a bit later it was a steady drip. I put pressure on but no good. I tied it high up with string and hoped it would clot. Then I went to bed. It was 2am.

Next day the calf was flat out but thankfully alive. More milking and kicking but managed to get him feed a bit. I tried to get him on his feet but front legs were a mess - but as any farmer will tell you that s better than the back legs gone.

Both front pasterns were bent back. The right looked like it would sort itself but the left was bad and when the calf was held up his front left would end up beside his back left. Mostly these issues resolves themselves but if they don't you end up with a year old walking on its 'wrists'. The following day I managed to lift and keep the calf upright long enough to get him sucking his mother. He collapsed numerous times and my back felt the repeated lifting and manoeuvrings, but unbelievably the cow - who was never petted or mollycoddled - stood still and cooperated.

Front left leg was still just flapping though. So I decided to do something that has worked for me before but you never get any credit for it. Using a bandage and a splint you make it impossible for the calf to walk on its wrists and the calf must walk on its toes. Usually fter 2 days its tendons have stretched and the bandaging can come off. The fact it helps the calf to stand and walk helps encourages it to get up, move and that helps stay warm and feed. I found the calf this evening in an old yard in a bunch of nettles after he was able to get up and follow his mother outside and walk! Of course people will say he would get ok anyway.

Biggest calf of the year. Chanced it ok. It could have ended in grief I know. But the vet's enthusiasm for sections in the first place alarmed me. The poor recovery of the cows after is concerning tbh. And that's putting it mildly. I had cows sectioned 20 years ago that healed and stitches removed 3 weeks later.

Great result on this calving. Especially happy about the cow. Not a bother on her. Up and about and nosing about an old yard and not another cow in sight. She's happy out with the calf. Just like a bitch showing off a litter of pups.

[omaghjoe]

Great read moysider, glad both are doin well.

Makes me wish I was back doing the same thing

What breed are they? Cow & bull?

[Ball Hopper]

Great read there, Moysider.

Farming is truly a calling.

Has anyone ever given a normal cost account of a cow for a year?  Cost of feed, housing, testing, etc versus sale price of calf and milk receipts? 

[CD]

Enjoyed that Moysider! You've a way with words! Glad it worked out well for you!

[theskull1]

+1
Really inciteful read moysider

[moysider]

Great read moysider, glad both are doin well.

Makes me wish I was back doing the same thing

What breed are they? Cow & bull?

Delighted people enjoyed the read.  Must learn how to post photos.
Look, I ve the chance to do a bit of messing about with cows and calves but I don t consider it farming. Farming is a business and you have to make a living out of it. I don t. It s a hobby, a distraction and the more of those we have the better imo. It's one of several things that keep me half right!

The cow is a Charolais/Simmental X and the sire was our own Simmental stock bull. As well as some commercial cows I also breed some pure bred Simmentals.

[Shrewdness]

Great post from you Moysider. Didn't know that you're a farmer, as i am myself..I used to breed pedigree Charolais cattle , and even bred a champion in Carrick on Shannon...Could tell you some right stories from those days. Moysider, those other cows that you had sectioned should have healed up by now.

[orangeman]

+1
Really inciteful read moysider

Great read.

I thought that expletives were automatically filtered out of posts ?. One seems to have got through the net in this report. But we'll forgive you that !.

[omaghjoe]

Great read moysider, glad both are doin well.

Makes me wish I was back doing the same thing

What breed are they? Cow & bull?

Delighted people enjoyed the read.  Must learn how to post photos.
Look, I ve the chance to do a bit of messing about with cows and calves but I don t consider it farming. Farming is a business and you have to make a living out of it. I don t. It s a hobby, a distraction and the more of those we have the better imo. It's one of several things that keep me half right!

The cow is a Charolais/Simmental X and the sire was our own Simmental stock bull. As well as some commercial cows I also breed some pure bred Simmentals.

Heard that they hold on to the calf longer as well leaving the calf larger. Never heard that about the cord before either makes sense tho. Do you leave it there before pushing the back legs out?

There is nothing like a calving going right tho for satisfaction especially when the animal does well after it. Makes me miss it, maybe its because I was born into it but I don't believe there is any job with better job satisfaction than farming.

Although as you say the stress and worry of making ends meet is where the problem lies when your at proper commercial farming, so many unknowns and massive investment required. Any other businessman would laugh at it as a commercial enterprise because of the risks involved.

[front of the mountain]

Reading down through Moysiders great post, coincidentally at present we have bother a newborn heifer calf (week old tomorrow) and its back legs. It was quite large calf from Charolais bull & Belgian blue cow. The cow was very heavy before calving and we were watching her tight as we had an operation with another cow just the week before.
After not progressing in the field we got her into the shed were we got the jack, front legs and head out and proceeded. The jacking didn't seem any more strenuous than previous successful calving episodes were the jack was needed.
Everything seemed normal enough, left them a few hours and went back to check on the new arrival and noticed the calf hadnt got up and sucked. As it was getting late we got cow milked and got colostrum into the calf.
The calf wasnt seemingly able to "lock out" the back hinches when it stood and it couldnt stand un aided for more than a few seconds. We took it to Vet, he gave it few jabs but he wasnt sure either what exactly was wrong possibly trapped nerve, muscle problem, hurt at calving, he maintained you just have to preserver for a few weeks to see if it comes right.

We are currently few times a day having to run the cow up the crush and calf suckles from its knees under the cow. It nearly a week and we notice calf has got slighting stronger on legs but not much possibly stand 20secs/& walk few steps before buckling.

It is a real clinker of a calf and good health expect the back legs. Just wondering does anyone else have experience to this kind of thing coming right or pardon the pun are we flogging a dead horse??

[trileacman]

Maybe, maybe not. More than likely you've damaged one of the major nerves to the hindlimb, which is a potential danger when you've foetal maternal disproportion. The nerve most likely has degenerated but can potential regenerate. The rate of growth is slow, something like 1cm a  day max. Treatment is usually supportive, administrating anti-oxidants can help prevent further damage but like a lot of injuries sustained by cattle there is only a limited supply of therapies. If you're more unlucky, you've dislocated part of the lower spine which carries a worse prognosis. As for the outcome in this case it's hard to say before 4-6 weeks have passed, that's a long time to nurse it along but it's really up to you if you have the time to commit to the calf.

As an aside, farming is a financial basket case for the exact sentiments expressed on this thread. Far too much emotional attachment is applied to the industry, distorting the price of land, animals and machinery and making completely impossible for it too survive without subsidization. It is by an large an extension of gardening with individuals competing against their neighbors irrespective of the cost. Given that the price of beef has fallen over 20% with the price of milk lingering at a low of 20p a litre there's very few of you who would currently see a positive outlook for the future if you were farmers. Combine that with the weather beating the grass into the clay and there's not much joy in farming this week.

[moysider]

Great read moysider, glad both are doin well.

Makes me wish I was back doing the same thing

What breed are they? Cow & bull?

Delighted people enjoyed the read.  Must learn how to post photos.
Look, I ve the chance to do a bit of messing about with cows and calves but I don t consider it farming. Farming is a business and you have to make a living out of it. I don t. It s a hobby, a distraction and the more of those we have the better imo. It's one of several things that keep me half right!

The cow is a Charolais/Simmental X and the sire was our own Simmental stock bull. As well as some commercial cows I also breed some pure bred Simmentals.

Heard that they hold on to the calf longer as well leaving the calf larger. Never heard that about the cord before either makes sense tho. Do you leave it there before pushing the back legs out?

There is nothing like a calving going right tho for satisfaction especially when the animal does well after it. Makes me miss it, maybe its because I was born into it but I don't believe there is any job with better job satisfaction than farming.

Although as you say the stress and worry of making ends meet is where the problem lies when your at proper commercial farming, so many unknowns and massive investment required. Any other businessman would laugh at it as a commercial enterprise because of the risks involved.

Yeah, gestation for these heading for 10 months sometimes. And bulls take longer than heifers, so when you factor in that bulls are usually bigger units anyway they can get a bit tricky. The naval thing is just something I do sometimes. I just stop pulling when the hips are clear.
A few years ago front of the mountain I had a calfeen that had a weak back leg. It was a veterinary assisted birth but one of those close calls where maybe in hindsight a caesarean might have been a wiser option, but I had no problem with the call before or after. It was a first calf heifer and the supposedly easy calving limousin stuck at the hips. We eventually freed it and it was in good health apart from its back leg that kept sliding away behind it. We tried everything but he did not improve. He had to be handfed and lifted and turned but could not get to his feet at all. After about 3 weeks we decided to have him put down. By then he had become a right pet and used to really get into it at feeding time. I found myself getting fond of the poor devil as well and it was a wretch having him euthanized.

[gaah_man]

Have enjoyed reading this thread over the last few months so decided to join in, we run a herd of sucklers and replacements (all simmental x) and this year are having a few problems with calves becoming poorly after calving. We are lucky to have big rangey cows and an easy calving bull (only one pulled this year from a first calver, which was a brute of a bull calf) but have lost 4 (and lucky to have had a few others come good after treatment, to a mystery illness.) The calves were lively for a few days after calving then start to become wobbly on legs, dont suck and scour badly. They are calved are run in bedded pens for a few days then put out to grass/silage in the field.. Anyone have similar problems? It couldnt be lack of minerals as cows are given a daily sprinkle of mineral dust over the silage.. we are thinking it could be a bug in the shed/pens and have been using lime mixed through the bedding or something in the cows (BVD free herd) so are going for blood test.. also the changing weather may be a factor... Any of you had the same problems/symptoms?

[moysider]

Have enjoyed reading this thread over the last few months so decided to join in, we run a herd of sucklers and replacements (all simmental x) and this year are having a few problems with calves becoming poorly after calving. We are lucky to have big rangey cows and an easy calving bull (only one pulled this year from a first calver, which was a brute of a bull calf) but have lost 4 (and lucky to have had a few others come good after treatment, to a mystery illness.) The calves were lively for a few days after calving then start to become wobbly on legs, dont suck and scour badly. They are calved are run in bedded pens for a few days then put out to grass/silage in the field.. Anyone have similar problems? It couldnt be lack of minerals as cows are given a daily sprinkle of mineral dust over the silage.. we are thinking it could be a bug in the shed/pens and have been using lime mixed through the bedding or something in the cows (BVD free herd) so are going for blood test.. also the changing weather may be a factor... Any of you had the same problems/symptoms?

Have you ruled out joint ill?

[moysider]

I know there s a book thread on here but I m talking here about a farming book.

The Shepherd's Life by James Rebanks is some read.
Even if you ve never kept sheep. I haven t. My father tried to keep a flock of cheviots but gave up. The local town collection of lurchers, terriers and assorted mongrels turned them into dogfood before I was even old to remember them. But I remember retold stories of the horror.