Worthington wants anywhere but windsor

[Evil Genius]

It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.

When FIFA last adjudicated on such matters (in the 1950's), part of the outcome was a "gentlemens' agreement" between the FAI and IFA that each would cease to pick players from the other's jurisdiction.

This agreement held until very recently, when the FAI started selecting players at under-age level. However, the eligibility rules are more flexible at this level than at senior level, and whilst the FAI has picked one or two Northern-born players with no other connection to the Republic in recent senior squads (most notably Darron Gibson), none has as yet been allowed to play, which is the key factor.

And when the IFA objected to this to FIFA, rather than just going ahead and ignoring them, the FAI thought fit to bring their counter-case to FIFA. Now it may well be that the FAI's case will prevail, but it is by no means clear-cut; personally, as an NI fan, I am cautiously optimistic that FIFA will accept our submission.

As for the GFA, that is irrelevant to such matters, since soccer (or sport) was nowhere mentioned in it, neither was FIFA one of the signatories.

Consequently, the one thing we can say for certain over this whole vexed issue is that FIFA will decide exclusively by reference to its own Statutes and Regulations, as it always does in such matters.   

[Evil Genius]

Maybe so, but because if the politically sensitive nature of the irish situation I have no doubt that they will make an exception in this situation. Do you really want people playing for you when their allegiances lie else where? Just let players play for the team they feel is their national team.

I'm sorry, but that is a very naive, even simplistic approach to take. Or do you imagine that the Irish situation is the only "politically sensitive" one on this planet? The fact is, FIFA with over 208 National Associations, now has more members than the United Nations (192). As such, there are disputes within many of those members' jurisdictions which make our little squabble look like a vicar's tea party.

As for letting players just "play for the team they feel is their national team", then why bother having eligibility rules in the first place? Why not just let the players inform us of their feelings and watch the best of them suddenly feel "English", "German", "Brazilian", "Saudi Arabian" etc, or whichever Nationality pays them most and/or offers the best chance of winning a few games...

[Evil Genius]

I remember roy keane in his autobiography appreciating the support the team got from the North.

Too bad they were unable to persuade him to stick with the team in Saipan, then! Besides, I'd hardly cite Keane's views as the basis for an all-Ireland team, if what he says about the FAI's attitude towards Corkmen is anything to go by: a 31 County Republic, indeed...

[Evil Genius]

Support for ni as an entity (incl any sporting teams), is an extension of support for particular political point of view, whether conscious or unconsciously. Hence, support for ni is primarlily made up of those of who pro union/ulster nationalist/anti Irish Nationalism/against reunification. Theres no real debate to be had, its quite obvious. They are linked, in the case of OWC some will see the football as  the main driver for the support, some will see the political statement that support makes as the main driver, all will be touched by both aspects to varying degrees. Exactly the same aspects are true of the GAA, but the Gaa is pretty secure in the knowledge that its not going to be taken away from its members , IMHO not so true for ni fans, or indeed ni brands, or indeed ni, time and the people affected/afflicted will tell on that one.

If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country? Or in the present day, the likes of Clingan, Johnson or Baird?
Not to mention the small but significant minority of supporters from a Nationalist background who still attend Windsor for internationals?

No-one requires any of them to sing any anthem, sign any pledge, vote for any party or carry any Passport when they walk through the gates. Indeed, there is a requirement that overtly political or sectarian behaviour is prohibited, even illegal, and such displays are very rare indeed, these days.
Sure, there remain a few isolated trappings which may be identified with one particular political viewpoint, but these are being eliminated and none is compulsory, or in any way prevents anyone of any political persuasion (or none) from either wearing the green shirt, or cheering on those who do.

Which, imo, is entirely how it should be - just as I have never had an insurmountable problem with the  exclusively Nationalist emblems etc on display at rugby internationals at Lansdowne, even though that team is meant to represent both jurisdictions on the island...

[Donagh]

If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country?

I think I know the answer to this one. Erm, in the good old days of the 'gentleman's agreement' they had no other choice but to play for the north if they wanted to play international soccer?

[Evil Genius]

ni shouldn't have a team (as i duck behind the couch), nor should scotland wales or england. there should be one uk team then everyone who feels their british they can support it and everyone who feels their irish can support the irish team...

An important point which is often overlooked, MK. That is, if FIFA were to apply its normal (but not exclusive) practice of national teams only reflecting the boundaries of nation states, there would indeed be only two international teams on these islands - UK and ROI.

Of course, supporters who choose to support either, or both, or neither; it was always the case that anyone can support any international team he/she likes.

Of course, playing for a National team is entirely different. As such, if the National Associations were tightened to reflect the UK and ROI jurisdictions, I have no doubt that FIFA would have to ensure that player eligibility rules also reflected these boundaries, so that no-one from the UK, who was not either born in the ROI, or had a parent/grandparent born there, or had lived there at least 3 years continuously, would be allowed to play for the FAI team.

And whilse that particular prospect does not greatly bother me, I personally have no greater desire to see my NI team subsumed into a UK team than I have to see it subsumed into an All-Ireland team!

[Evil Genius]

If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country?

I think I know the answer to this one. Erm, in the good old days of the 'gentleman's agreement' they had no other choice but to play for the north if they wanted to play international soccer?

But it actually worked both ways! That is, it was not just the FAI who sought to pick players from the six, but the IFA had also frequently picked players from the 26, on the basis that it (the IFA) was the original Association, with their jurisdiction covering the whole island since 1880. Therefore after 1950, footballers from the Republic had no other choice but to play for the FAI team.

That said, the 1950 arbitration by FIFA initially only covered World Cup (and subsequently European Nations Cup) matches, since they needed to avoid the situation whereby Irish players could play for two teams in the same competition!
Therefore, the IFA was still allowed to call itself "Ireland" for British Championship matches and also select players from the Republic for these games. AFAIK, this latter arrangement lasted into throughout the 1950's for player selection, with the "Ireland" name being retained until around 1970(?) for BC matches.

Anyhow, on a more general note about "choice", if someone doesn't like to represent only one particular international team at soccer, he always has the choice to play some other sport, as e.g. certain Basques found when called up to represent Spain at soccer...

[Main Street]

Which, imo, is entirely how it should be - just as I have never had an insurmountable problem with the  exclusively Nationalist emblems etc on display at rugby internationals at Lansdowne, even though that team is meant to represent both jurisdictions on the island...

I don't get the bit about exclusive nationalist symbols on display at LR for rugby games.
Wasn't Willie John on display for decades.
The Ulster flag is flown alongside the tricolour.

If the Ulster flag and Irelands Call don't do it, then come up with another Ulster flag and an Ulster Anthem that reflects the positive aspirations of all the people in NI.
NI is not just about a Unionist jurisdiction.


. 

[magickingdom]

I remember roy keane in his autobiography appreciating the support the team got from the North.

Too bad they were unable to persuade him to stick with the team in Saipan, then! Besides, I'd hardly cite Keane's views as the basis for an all-Ireland team, if what he says about the FAI's attitude towards Corkmen is anything to go by: a 31 County Republic, indeed...

classic 

[magickingdom]

It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.

When FIFA last adjudicated on such matters (in the 1950's), part of the outcome was a "gentlemens' agreement" between the FAI and IFA that each would cease to pick players from the other's jurisdiction.

This agreement held until very recently, when the FAI started selecting players at under-age level. However, the eligibility rules are more flexible at this level than at senior level, and whilst the FAI has picked one or two Northern-born players with no other connection to the Republic in recent senior squads (most notably Darron Gibson), none has as yet been allowed to play, which is the key factor.

And when the IFA objected to this to FIFA, rather than just going ahead and ignoring them, the FAI thought fit to bring their counter-case to FIFA. Now it may well be that the FAI's case will prevail, but it is by no means clear-cut; personally, as an NI fan, I am cautiously optimistic that FIFA will accept our submission.

As for the GFA, that is irrelevant to such matters, since soccer (or sport) was nowhere mentioned in it, neither was FIFA one of the signatories.

Consequently, the one thing we can say for certain over this whole vexed issue is that FIFA will decide exclusively by reference to its own Statutes and Regulations, as it always does in such matters.   

eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....

[Chrisowc]

eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....

You can play for Northern Ireland by solely holding an Irish Passport.  Therefore you are not being denied your right to express your Irishness by being picked for and playing for Northern Ireland while not being eligable to play for the Republic.

Clear as mud really...

[Solomon Kane]

Does Northern Ireland football get more coverage on this site than GAA? It must be a close run thing. It is looking more like a "shadow" Our Wee Country here than anything else.

[magickingdom]

eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....

You can play for Northern Ireland by solely holding an Irish Passport.  Therefore you are not being denied your right to express your Irishness by being picked for and playing for Northern Ireland while not being eligable to play for the Republic.

Clear as mud really...

clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?

[magickingdom]

Does Northern Ireland football get more coverage on this site than GAA? It must be a close run thing. It is looking more like a "shadow" Our Wee Country here than anything else.

your in the non-gaa section, pop over to the gaa section when you get a chance...

[Chrisowc]

clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?

Yes I did read your post.  You stated what you believed should happen.  Not what actually has or does happen.

NI players are no longer required to have UK passports.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html