Brexit.

[johnnycool]

Boris is an opportunist, with zero morals and no regard for anyone living on this island.
Fair play to all the civil servants on the EU and UK side for making efforts to minimise the impact of the disaster that is Brexit. The recent report from the Bank of England highlighting that Brexit is costing every UK household £1,000 per year is interesting.  So all of us in the North are £1,000 worse off every year because of that disastrous decision.
I know there are many union members on here from the North, some of whom are in NIPSA, the public service union. So a question for NIPSA leaders; do they still support Brexit?

That question was asked of Mick Lynch on the James O'Brien LBC radio show and his answer was interesting if somewhat ill thought out.

He said migrant labour was keeping wages artificially low and Rail companies were feeding off that.
When questioned further about workers rights and the current bonfire of them being burned because the UK is out of the EU, his answer was less than insightful that they didn't expect this government to go so far so fast.
Where has he been? This is the most corrupt, right wing Gov ever in my lifetime, putting Thatcher in the ha'penny place in that regards.

Migrant labour does keep wages down. So did austerity.  UK wages are about 15% lower than in 2008.

Read the script,
EU migrant labour did not/does not keep UK manual wages down.
The reasons why UK wages were/are lower have nothing to do with EU migrant labour.
Mick Lynch is talking through his hole when raging agin the EU.

I think he realises that now!

[seafoid]

Boris is an opportunist, with zero morals and no regard for anyone living on this island.
Fair play to all the civil servants on the EU and UK side for making efforts to minimise the impact of the disaster that is Brexit. The recent report from the Bank of England highlighting that Brexit is costing every UK household £1,000 per year is interesting.  So all of us in the North are £1,000 worse off every year because of that disastrous decision.
I know there are many union members on here from the North, some of whom are in NIPSA, the public service union. So a question for NIPSA leaders; do they still support Brexit?

That question was asked of Mick Lynch on the James O'Brien LBC radio show and his answer was interesting if somewhat ill thought out.

He said migrant labour was keeping wages artificially low and Rail companies were feeding off that.
When questioned further about workers rights and the current bonfire of them being burned because the UK is out of the EU, his answer was less than insightful that they didn't expect this government to go so far so fast.
Where has he been? This is the most corrupt, right wing Gov ever in my lifetime, putting Thatcher in the ha'penny place in that regards.

Migrant labour does keep wages down. So did austerity.  UK wages are about 15% lower than in 2008.

Read the script,
EU migrant labour did not/does not keep UK manual wages down.
The reasons why UK wages were/are lower have nothing to do with EU migrant labour.
Mick Lynch is talking through his hole when raging agin the EU.

throw up some numbers about UK migration.
Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages and the UK still has EU migration but a lot more from third party countries.
Free movement now without limits is insane because it's anti local  working class and migration  does not drive growth because there is no growth. Don't bother talking about Irish growth which is driven by MNC accounting.

[Mike Tyson]

Boris is an opportunist, with zero morals and no regard for anyone living on this island.
Fair play to all the civil servants on the EU and UK side for making efforts to minimise the impact of the disaster that is Brexit. The recent report from the Bank of England highlighting that Brexit is costing every UK household £1,000 per year is interesting.  So all of us in the North are £1,000 worse off every year because of that disastrous decision.
I know there are many union members on here from the North, some of whom are in NIPSA, the public service union. So a question for NIPSA leaders; do they still support Brexit?

That question was asked of Mick Lynch on the James O'Brien LBC radio show and his answer was interesting if somewhat ill thought out.

He said migrant labour was keeping wages artificially low and Rail companies were feeding off that.
When questioned further about workers rights and the current bonfire of them being burned because the UK is out of the EU, his answer was less than insightful that they didn't expect this government to go so far so fast.
Where has he been? This is the most corrupt, right wing Gov ever in my lifetime, putting Thatcher in the ha'penny place in that regards.

Migrant labour does keep wages down. So did austerity.  UK wages are about 15% lower than in 2008.

Read the script,
EU migrant labour did not/does not keep UK manual wages down.
The reasons why UK wages were/are lower have nothing to do with EU migrant labour.
Mick Lynch is talking through his hole when raging agin the EU.

throw up some numbers about UK migration.
Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages and the UK still has EU migration but a lot more from third party countries.
Free movement now without limits is insane because it's anti local  working class and migration  does not drive growth because there is no growth. Don't bother talking about Irish growth which is driven by MNC accounting.

Can you explain the rational behind this please?

[tyrone08]

Boris is an opportunist, with zero morals and no regard for anyone living on this island.
Fair play to all the civil servants on the EU and UK side for making efforts to minimise the impact of the disaster that is Brexit. The recent report from the Bank of England highlighting that Brexit is costing every UK household £1,000 per year is interesting.  So all of us in the North are £1,000 worse off every year because of that disastrous decision.
I know there are many union members on here from the North, some of whom are in NIPSA, the public service union. So a question for NIPSA leaders; do they still support Brexit?

That question was asked of Mick Lynch on the James O'Brien LBC radio show and his answer was interesting if somewhat ill thought out.

He said migrant labour was keeping wages artificially low and Rail companies were feeding off that.
When questioned further about workers rights and the current bonfire of them being burned because the UK is out of the EU, his answer was less than insightful that they didn't expect this government to go so far so fast.
Where has he been? This is the most corrupt, right wing Gov ever in my lifetime, putting Thatcher in the ha'penny place in that regards.

Migrant labour does keep wages down. So did austerity.  UK wages are about 15% lower than in 2008.

Read the script,
EU migrant labour did not/does not keep UK manual wages down.
The reasons why UK wages were/are lower have nothing to do with EU migrant labour.
Mick Lynch is talking through his hole when raging agin the EU.

throw up some numbers about UK migration.
Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages and the UK still has EU migration but a lot more from third party countries.
Free movement now without limits is insane because it's anti local  working class and migration  does not drive growth because there is no growth. Don't bother talking about Irish growth which is driven by MNC accounting.

Can you explain the rational behind this please?

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

[Mike Tyson]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

[trailer]

Boris is an opportunist, with zero morals and no regard for anyone living on this island.
Fair play to all the civil servants on the EU and UK side for making efforts to minimise the impact of the disaster that is Brexit. The recent report from the Bank of England highlighting that Brexit is costing every UK household £1,000 per year is interesting.  So all of us in the North are £1,000 worse off every year because of that disastrous decision.
I know there are many union members on here from the North, some of whom are in NIPSA, the public service union. So a question for NIPSA leaders; do they still support Brexit?

That question was asked of Mick Lynch on the James O'Brien LBC radio show and his answer was interesting if somewhat ill thought out.

He said migrant labour was keeping wages artificially low and Rail companies were feeding off that.
When questioned further about workers rights and the current bonfire of them being burned because the UK is out of the EU, his answer was less than insightful that they didn't expect this government to go so far so fast.
Where has he been? This is the most corrupt, right wing Gov ever in my lifetime, putting Thatcher in the ha'penny place in that regards.

Migrant labour does keep wages down. So did austerity.  UK wages are about 15% lower than in 2008.

Read the script,
EU migrant labour did not/does not keep UK manual wages down.
The reasons why UK wages were/are lower have nothing to do with EU migrant labour.
Mick Lynch is talking through his hole when raging agin the EU.

throw up some numbers about UK migration.
Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages and the UK still has EU migration but a lot more from third party countries.
Free movement now without limits is insane because it's anti local  working class and migration  does not drive growth because there is no growth. Don't bother talking about Irish growth which is driven by MNC accounting.

Can you explain the rational behind this please?

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

There's a shortage of labour. Head down to the Lough shore and Company after Company are looking for Welders, Fabricators, Unskilled labour. If any of those companies isn't paying the going rate and offering the benefits like 4 day weeks etc then they won't be able to hire or retain staff.

[seafoid]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

The minimum wage is notional in certain sectors.
Even with stuff like carpentry and plumbing, fellas working in the black economy will charge less than pros who are regulated.
Cleaning would be the same.

[Mike Tyson]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

The minimum wage is notional in certain sectors.
Even with stuff like carpentry and plumbing, fellas working in the black economy will charge less than pros who are regulated.
Cleaning would be the same.

So more of an illegal working/tax evasion issue then as opposed to the migrants that is driving down wages? Interesting.

[seafoid]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

The minimum wage is notional in certain sectors.
Even with stuff like carpentry and plumbing, fellas working in the black economy will charge less than pros who are regulated.
Cleaning would be the same.

So more of an illegal working/tax evasion issue then as opposed to the migrants that is driving down wages? Interesting.

Throw up some numbers to back your thesis.
Migrants generally, and this applied to Irish migrants in the past, often work hard and save money to either support people at home or build a house at home.
Unscrupulous employers can easily take advantage of them.

[Kidder81]

Employers know when they have people landing at their door from Eastern Europe, where the wages are much lower, they can pay less than the minimum wage & the workers will take their hand off. It's not rocket science

[Mike Tyson]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

The minimum wage is notional in certain sectors.
Even with stuff like carpentry and plumbing, fellas working in the black economy will charge less than pros who are regulated.
Cleaning would be the same.

So more of an illegal working/tax evasion issue then as opposed to the migrants that is driving down wages? Interesting.

Throw up some numbers to back your thesis.
Migrants generally, and this applied to Irish migrants in the past, often work hard and save money to either support people at home or build a house at home.
Unscrupulous employers can easily take advantage of them.

You're the one who first made the claim it drives down wages? Then subsequently that it's actually due to the "black economy", both with no numbers to back your statements I'm simply applying some logic to what you're saying. Using your theory and Kidder81's statement, everyone in the UK should have received/be due a fair increase in our wages since Brexit given the shortage in Eastern European migrants/workers?

I'll throw you some reading from University of Oxford study: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

"Reviewing 12 studies conducted between 2003 and 2018, MAC (2018) concluded that immigration had had little impact on average wages. Some studies (e.g. Nickell and Saleheen, 2015) had found a small negative impact on average wages while others (e.g. Dustmann et al, 2013) found positive average effects."

"Finally, research suggests that any adverse wage effects of immigration are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because the skills of new migrants are likely to be closer substitutes for the skills of migrants already employed in the UK than for those of UK-born workers."

As with any cause & effect analysis, it's near impossible to simply state one factor is responsible and study it independently. Real life isn't an economics text book were "assuming all else remains equal" applies.

I'm happy to see your research backing the statement, "Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages". Eagerly awaiting your reply

[Milltown Row2]

Employers know when they have people landing at their door from Eastern Europe, where the wages are much lower, they can pay less than the minimum wage & the workers will take their hand off. It's not rocket science

Its less than minimum wage but a hell of a lot higher than wages at 'home' which in most cases they'll be sending it back to..

That said they should get the going rate.

I remember years ago when we had a group of refugees over working in the Yard, they where over for a 6 month period, the Yard took them on providing they could past the welding test, these 10 lads had said they could weld but they needed to pass our inspection, which was break test tensile test and an x-ray test anyways.... 

On passing it they started working away on the night shift, word got out with the amount they were getting paid and the union got involved and ensured they were paid the proper rate and shift rate, they worked flat out for the 6 months, and headed home very well off considering.

Do the workers on cruise ships get paid differently based on where they are from? Remember someone saying the do for some reason like inflation and so on

[seafoid]

I suppose the simplest explanation is that they will work for less than people from here. Not sure if that is factually accurate but would say there is at least some degree of truth to it.

Makes sense but I suppose if they are coming in for the low paid and supposedly low skilled jobs, these wages would already be at the minimum wage floor so couldn't be paid any less?

The minimum wage is notional in certain sectors.
Even with stuff like carpentry and plumbing, fellas working in the black economy will charge less than pros who are regulated.
Cleaning would be the same.

So more of an illegal working/tax evasion issue then as opposed to the migrants that is driving down wages? Interesting.

Throw up some numbers to back your thesis.
Migrants generally, and this applied to Irish migrants in the past, often work hard and save money to either support people at home or build a house at home.
Unscrupulous employers can easily take advantage of them.

You're the one who first made the claim it drives down wages? Then subsequently that it's actually due to the "black economy", both with no numbers to back your statements I'm simply applying some logic to what you're saying. Using your theory and Kidder81's statement, everyone in the UK should have received/be due a fair increase in our wages since Brexit given the shortage in Eastern European migrants/workers?

I'll throw you some reading from University of Oxford study: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

"Reviewing 12 studies conducted between 2003 and 2018, MAC (2018) concluded that immigration had had little impact on average wages. Some studies (e.g. Nickell and Saleheen, 2015) had found a small negative impact on average wages while others (e.g. Dustmann et al, 2013) found positive average effects."

"Finally, research suggests that any adverse wage effects of immigration are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because the skills of new migrants are likely to be closer substitutes for the skills of migrants already employed in the UK than for those of UK-born workers."

As with any cause & effect analysis, it's near impossible to simply state one factor is responsible and study it independently. Real life isn't an economics text book were "assuming all else remains equal" applies.

I'm happy to see your research backing the statement, "Migration from anywhere poorer eg Eastern Europe and Portugal does drive down wages". Eagerly awaiting your reply

UK wages are 15% lower in real terms than in 2008
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/wages-fall-real-terms-14-years-economic-disaster-says-top-economist-165849827.html

Part of this was due to weak unions. Part was due to neoliberalism. And part was due to migration.
Beyond a certain limit migration is pointless. If the economy stops growing and the population continues to increase, GDP per head will fall.
Inflation exacerbates this.

[johnnycool]

Sunak looks to be struggling to get the support for his new NI Protocol agreement with the EU. Some of his cabinet threatening to resign.

Are the UK Gov now becoming ungovernable?

[Rossfan]

Those eejits still trying to live in hardbrexit cloud cuckooland.