Brexit.

[five points]

If one of your core beliefs is not to unite Ireland, then I don't see how you could call yourself an Irish man or woman.

I'm as Irish as you and yet the prospect of a messy united Ireland (and it would be very messy) scares me.

[LCohen]

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

In part because Labour never really pushed this either.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

Norway and a confirmation referendum would have brought a lot on board.

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

They are nationalist parties, they need to have a general strategy for this.

Where are you getting the evidence that there is a majority in favour of Norway plus? Which side (Remainers or No Dealers) are going to shelve their heart's desire to back it? Looking for something concrete here that Corbyn has got wrong??

What would the other option on the confirmatory referendum? (Directly linked to the point above)

FF and FG are nationalist in name only. Surely you know that at least??

[LCohen]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

I am beginning to realise that Sinn Fein need to stop trying to own a United Ireland. Let people work it out for themselves that it is the better option and keep Martina and her confrontational rhetoric quiet.

I used to Vote Sinn Fein, until this year!

The Irish Government needs to own what a United Ireland looks like.

Varadkar was right to say that a united Ireland would not just be the north morphed into the existing Dail setup and there'll need to be regionalised legislatures in place.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

Do they need to?

Well this is my view of Democracy. A party sets out what it's agenda is and seeks an electoral mandate. At a subsequent election it is judged on how it has delivered.

If you want an Irish government to plan for a UI then vote for politicians that say that is what they intend to do.

[LCohen]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

Yes, up to a point. But a really clear Labour model of Brexit has not come into public view. He probably could have sold Norway as a model, as a solidly social democratic place which only adheres to about one third of EU regulations.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

The Irish government have concentrated on trying to stabilise NI close to its present position. That allows a UI become a medium term project.
If the British carry on the way they are going then we are in uncharted waters.

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

On NI I have no issue with their attitude to NI. Irish civil servants and ministers always seem to have a sound grasp of their role and responsibilities under GFA. Sadly same cannot always be said of some UK ministers

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

I think it is incumbent on every Irish government to promote and plan for reunification of the island.  To not do so would be a betrayal of the founding fathers of the state as it currently stands ... imo of course.

If the "founding fathers" are still voting there needs to be a public inquiry ...... imo of course

[LCohen]

So we're not trailers version of "Irish" now?

Anyway Bozo and DUPUDA are doing just fine on advancing the All Ireland State.

If one of your core beliefs is not to unite Ireland, then I don't see how you could call yourself an Irish man or woman.

Are the passport collection points a costed proposal in your manifesto??

[TheOptimist]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

+1.

I find it shocking how anyone, including some on this board, actually believe the propaganda and Tory press character assassination of Corbyn.  It was perfectly timed to prevent him being the PM in waiting, and the anti-semite accusation was nothing more than BS.  Read up on the man's stance over many years, just because he campaigns for Palestinian rights, as well as the the rights of any downtrodden across the globe, does not make him anti-semetic.  The usual Israeli propaganda being adopted by the Tory's now.

I tend to agree and one of Corbyn's strenghts was shown at the time of the last election in that he gets his message across well when given the megaphone. Theresa May was expecting a massive victory but Corbyn run rings around herself and the Tories. Same thing could happen again.

[trueblue1234]

Well this is my view of Democracy. A party sets out what it's agenda is and seeks an electoral mandate. At a subsequent election it is judged on how it has delivered.

If you want an Irish government to plan for a UI then vote for politicians that say that is what they intend to do.

This is true. Also sums up why it's so foolish of people asking SF to now take their seats in Westminster.

[LCohen]

Well this is my view of Democracy. A party sets out what it's agenda is and seeks an electoral mandate. At a subsequent election it is judged on how it has delivered.

If you want an Irish government to plan for a UI then vote for politicians that say that is what they intend to do.

This is true. Also sums up why it's so foolish of people asking SF to now take their seats in Westminster.

But then nobody is accusing Fintan O'Toole of being a fool

[trueblue1234]

Well this is my view of Democracy. A party sets out what it's agenda is and seeks an electoral mandate. At a subsequent election it is judged on how it has delivered.

If you want an Irish government to plan for a UI then vote for politicians that say that is what they intend to do.

This is true. Also sums up why it's so foolish of people asking SF to now take their seats in Westminster.

But then nobody is accusing Fintan O'Toole of being a fool

It's more directed at the people here who believe SF should take their seats.

[armaghniac]

Are the passport collection points a costed proposal in your manifesto??

You are going to have to explain that one.

But then nobody is accusing Fintan O'Toole of being a fool

Without such an accusation you can disagree with him on a particular issue.
Do you dispute that SF going to Westminster would lead to a whole new issue of terrorists in government arising?

[omaghjoe]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

1. His Parliamentary party is more or less united on Brexit, how many actually vote against the whip? 10 or something? Last time out it was only Hoey.... let her be and deselect at the next election. Or dig up some dirt and have a petition for her removal followed by a by election which she would be duly crucified by a Remain candidate. My point is he would have much more leverage and weight with the whip to easily deal with rebels if he had stable support but he doesn't... half his parliamentary party would love to get rid of him so he has to do everything by the book and he's always scrambling to appease someone?

2. Prob the ones that actually left the Tory party and formed another one with a group of Labour MPs.... who incidentally are pissed off with his economic delusion but use anti Seminitism as a smoke screen. And maybe some of the others who lost the whip.

3. The Lib Dems for a start... not to mention the sensible Remain Tories.

4. No, prob just support a ref2 and present it as a democratic 3 way vote with the exit deal presented as a third option. IN an election talk lots about the Brexit party and emphasis Tory austerity while presenting Labour as a sensible option of sustainable growth by a moderate tax regime which will providing income to support the NHS and social welfare. Then just cut your loses on the Leave seats, the marginal seats won would more than make up for the those lost.

5. Hmmm i dunno...... maybe after Theresa May's catastrophic series of record defeats? Being an unacceptable option as PM was enuff to deter them so being more acceptable and a few underhand tactics like promising weak Labour candidates in targeted marginal Remain seats could have also have brought a few. The reality if he had a more centrist approach he would have had greater all around support and he would have been able to put much more pressure on her much earlier and forced her resignation... indeed he would prob have won the election...


Besides all of this is pointless.... its obvious that he is not the man for the job.... FFS its says it all when he has to have someone like Diane Abbot as a senior member of his cabinet

Outline the united position that Barry Gardiner, John Mann, Yvette Cooper, Jess Philips and Kier Starmer are "more or less united on Brexit on"?

Current estimation is that up to 45 Labour MPs would stand in the way of a second referendum if asked to vote in favour of it. The number that would ignore the whip if Labour backed May's deal is unknown but likely to be 100+. Your tactics for dealing with rebels couldn't cope with these numbers.

Outline the policy positions adopted by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston over the years that they could reconcile with joining Labour - any version of the Labour Party noting that only 2 Tory MPs have ever defected to Labour in history including all previous centrist versions of the Party under other leaders

So what is your opinion (given you don't like ideological politicians) of these LDs and Tories that will let a no deal happen if the only alternative is a 90 day caretaker Labour government

You think a 3 way Vote is going to bring a conclusion to this?? To be honest that reads like a massive failure on your part to grasp the basics of the situation but i'll happily read your response outlining how it would work?

What numbers are you using for these swing seat that Labour would lose and win???

Your point 5 is wonderfully loose and plucked from the realm of fantasy. No confidence votes are exceptionally difficult to pull off. You need Tory MPs to end their own careers. Some older MPs or ones already resigned to deselection are prime targets but the numbers were never within reach back then. They are closer now (as there is a reducing number of Labour rebels as the Tory position hardens)

They vast majority high 90% have voted with the whip Who are those 45? Where were they during the meaning votes etc?

Certainly not the current policy of the Labour leadership, they upped sticks and left to join other Labour MPs that tell you that they cant be that far away from their position

What does my opinion matter on a Labour government..... it wont happen? If a no deal was allowed as that was presented as the only alternative it would be a shameful act by all involved. Whats your opinion on the Labour leadership allowing that situation to develop?

3 way vote is simple enough.... hardly really need to outline it. But sure that ship has sailed at this point

Poll numbers... a slim majority of the electorate appear to be remainers with some undecided... so a united strategy from that side and a centrist economic outlook should be enough to win the majority  over.

So its plucked from the realms of fantasy but its gonna happen... dunno what point your making there?


Besides this is pointless Corbyn is not the man for the job he is a slave to ideology not a political leader. If he was a stronger leader that reflected more broadly the position of the electrode he would have more support instead of fumbling around and constantly looking over his shoulder

Although I must say I am surprised that a Unionist  is so blindly supporting a potential British PM who supports a UI

[LCohen]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

1. His Parliamentary party is more or less united on Brexit, how many actually vote against the whip? 10 or something? Last time out it was only Hoey.... let her be and deselect at the next election. Or dig up some dirt and have a petition for her removal followed by a by election which she would be duly crucified by a Remain candidate. My point is he would have much more leverage and weight with the whip to easily deal with rebels if he had stable support but he doesn't... half his parliamentary party would love to get rid of him so he has to do everything by the book and he's always scrambling to appease someone?

2. Prob the ones that actually left the Tory party and formed another one with a group of Labour MPs.... who incidentally are pissed off with his economic delusion but use anti Seminitism as a smoke screen. And maybe some of the others who lost the whip.

3. The Lib Dems for a start... not to mention the sensible Remain Tories.

4. No, prob just support a ref2 and present it as a democratic 3 way vote with the exit deal presented as a third option. IN an election talk lots about the Brexit party and emphasis Tory austerity while presenting Labour as a sensible option of sustainable growth by a moderate tax regime which will providing income to support the NHS and social welfare. Then just cut your loses on the Leave seats, the marginal seats won would more than make up for the those lost.

5. Hmmm i dunno...... maybe after Theresa May's catastrophic series of record defeats? Being an unacceptable option as PM was enuff to deter them so being more acceptable and a few underhand tactics like promising weak Labour candidates in targeted marginal Remain seats could have also have brought a few. The reality if he had a more centrist approach he would have had greater all around support and he would have been able to put much more pressure on her much earlier and forced her resignation... indeed he would prob have won the election...


Besides all of this is pointless.... its obvious that he is not the man for the job.... FFS its says it all when he has to have someone like Diane Abbot as a senior member of his cabinet

Outline the united position that Barry Gardiner, John Mann, Yvette Cooper, Jess Philips and Kier Starmer are "more or less united on Brexit on"?

Current estimation is that up to 45 Labour MPs would stand in the way of a second referendum if asked to vote in favour of it. The number that would ignore the whip if Labour backed May's deal is unknown but likely to be 100+. Your tactics for dealing with rebels couldn't cope with these numbers.

Outline the policy positions adopted by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston over the years that they could reconcile with joining Labour - any version of the Labour Party noting that only 2 Tory MPs have ever defected to Labour in history including all previous centrist versions of the Party under other leaders

So what is your opinion (given you don't like ideological politicians) of these LDs and Tories that will let a no deal happen if the only alternative is a 90 day caretaker Labour government

You think a 3 way Vote is going to bring a conclusion to this?? To be honest that reads like a massive failure on your part to grasp the basics of the situation but i'll happily read your response outlining how it would work?

What numbers are you using for these swing seat that Labour would lose and win???

Your point 5 is wonderfully loose and plucked from the realm of fantasy. No confidence votes are exceptionally difficult to pull off. You need Tory MPs to end their own careers. Some older MPs or ones already resigned to deselection are prime targets but the numbers were never within reach back then. They are closer now (as there is a reducing number of Labour rebels as the Tory position hardens)

They vast majority high 90% have voted with the whip Who are those 45? Where were they during the meaning votes etc?

Certainly not the current policy of the Labour leadership, they upped sticks and left to join other Labour MPs that tell you that they cant be that far away from their position

What does my opinion matter on a Labour government..... it wont happen? If a no deal was allowed as that was presented as the only alternative it would be a shameful act by all involved. Whats your opinion on the Labour leadership allowing that situation to develop?

3 way vote is simple enough.... hardly really need to outline it. But sure that ship has sailed at this point

Poll numbers... a slim majority of the electorate appear to be remainers with some undecided... so a united strategy from that side and a centrist economic outlook should be enough to win the majority  over.

So its plucked from the realms of fantasy but its gonna happen... dunno what point your making there?


Besides this is pointless Corbyn is not the man for the job he is a slave to ideology not a political leader. If he was a stronger leader that reflected more broadly the position of the electrode he would have more support instead of fumbling around and constantly looking over his shoulder

Although I must say I am surprised that a Unionist  is so blindly supporting a potential British PM who supports a UI

My figure of 45 comes from Nick Watt. The highest figure I've seen is 50. That was was from Stephen Kinnock. I would believe Watt

Labour have put forward something. Others are free to so. And they might yet. I just find it incredible that someone can blame Corbyn for something somebody else hasn't done

A 3 way option on this issue is basically guaranteed to not provide a majority. It's a non solution. So yes you have a whole lot of explaining to do on it

You are asking for an end of at least a suspension of the party system. Not easy to do. Have other Remain leaders backed this?? Are you sure it wouldn't be trumped by the Leave campaign and Cummings?? It's high risk and highly complicated. To offer it as a solution and blame Corbin for it not happening is Trumpian in its sloganeering duplicity

My point on a no confidence vote is straight forward. The numbers were not there during the May period. Under Boris things are starting to change. Johnson's underhand tactics and his seeming appetite for no deal are stirring Tory rebels. The clock is running down so they feel they gotta act now. Also any Tory rebels have to counter any Labour rebels. If it's a no deal on offer then the number of Labour rebels recedes. There may be an opportunity to successfully prosecute a no confidence vote next week but there has not been to date. And people should not pretend that this has been sitting there as an easy option all along

[LCohen]

Are the passport collection points a costed proposal in your manifesto??

You are going to have to explain that one.

But then nobody is accusing Fintan O'Toole of being a fool

Without such an accusation you can disagree with him on a particular issue.
Do you dispute that SF going to Westminster would lead to a whole new issue of terrorists in government arising?

On the passports. I would hazard a guess that there are couple of million who possess Irish passports but by your definition have no business calling themselves Irish

Who is saying that SF taking their seats would lead to terrorists in government or an allegation of terrorists in government. Anyway allegations. We can withstand that for 90 days

[omaghjoe]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

1. His Parliamentary party is more or less united on Brexit, how many actually vote against the whip? 10 or something? Last time out it was only Hoey.... let her be and deselect at the next election. Or dig up some dirt and have a petition for her removal followed by a by election which she would be duly crucified by a Remain candidate. My point is he would have much more leverage and weight with the whip to easily deal with rebels if he had stable support but he doesn't... half his parliamentary party would love to get rid of him so he has to do everything by the book and he's always scrambling to appease someone?

2. Prob the ones that actually left the Tory party and formed another one with a group of Labour MPs.... who incidentally are pissed off with his economic delusion but use anti Seminitism as a smoke screen. And maybe some of the others who lost the whip.

3. The Lib Dems for a start... not to mention the sensible Remain Tories.

4. No, prob just support a ref2 and present it as a democratic 3 way vote with the exit deal presented as a third option. IN an election talk lots about the Brexit party and emphasis Tory austerity while presenting Labour as a sensible option of sustainable growth by a moderate tax regime which will providing income to support the NHS and social welfare. Then just cut your loses on the Leave seats, the marginal seats won would more than make up for the those lost.

5. Hmmm i dunno...... maybe after Theresa May's catastrophic series of record defeats? Being an unacceptable option as PM was enuff to deter them so being more acceptable and a few underhand tactics like promising weak Labour candidates in targeted marginal Remain seats could have also have brought a few. The reality if he had a more centrist approach he would have had greater all around support and he would have been able to put much more pressure on her much earlier and forced her resignation... indeed he would prob have won the election...


Besides all of this is pointless.... its obvious that he is not the man for the job.... FFS its says it all when he has to have someone like Diane Abbot as a senior member of his cabinet

Outline the united position that Barry Gardiner, John Mann, Yvette Cooper, Jess Philips and Kier Starmer are "more or less united on Brexit on"?

Current estimation is that up to 45 Labour MPs would stand in the way of a second referendum if asked to vote in favour of it. The number that would ignore the whip if Labour backed May's deal is unknown but likely to be 100+. Your tactics for dealing with rebels couldn't cope with these numbers.

Outline the policy positions adopted by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston over the years that they could reconcile with joining Labour - any version of the Labour Party noting that only 2 Tory MPs have ever defected to Labour in history including all previous centrist versions of the Party under other leaders

So what is your opinion (given you don't like ideological politicians) of these LDs and Tories that will let a no deal happen if the only alternative is a 90 day caretaker Labour government

You think a 3 way Vote is going to bring a conclusion to this?? To be honest that reads like a massive failure on your part to grasp the basics of the situation but i'll happily read your response outlining how it would work?

What numbers are you using for these swing seat that Labour would lose and win???

Your point 5 is wonderfully loose and plucked from the realm of fantasy. No confidence votes are exceptionally difficult to pull off. You need Tory MPs to end their own careers. Some older MPs or ones already resigned to deselection are prime targets but the numbers were never within reach back then. They are closer now (as there is a reducing number of Labour rebels as the Tory position hardens)

They vast majority high 90% have voted with the whip Who are those 45? Where were they during the meaning votes etc?

Certainly not the current policy of the Labour leadership, they upped sticks and left to join other Labour MPs that tell you that they cant be that far away from their position

What does my opinion matter on a Labour government..... it wont happen? If a no deal was allowed as that was presented as the only alternative it would be a shameful act by all involved. Whats your opinion on the Labour leadership allowing that situation to develop?

3 way vote is simple enough.... hardly really need to outline it. But sure that ship has sailed at this point

Poll numbers... a slim majority of the electorate appear to be remainers with some undecided... so a united strategy from that side and a centrist economic outlook should be enough to win the majority  over.

So its plucked from the realms of fantasy but its gonna happen... dunno what point your making there?


Besides this is pointless Corbyn is not the man for the job he is a slave to ideology not a political leader. If he was a stronger leader that reflected more broadly the position of the electrode he would have more support instead of fumbling around and constantly looking over his shoulder

Although I must say I am surprised that a Unionist  is so blindly supporting a potential British PM who supports a UI

My figure of 45 comes from Nick Watt. The highest figure I've seen is 50. That was was from Stephen Kinnock. I would believe Watt

Labour have put forward something. Others are free to so. And they might yet. I just find it incredible that someone can blame Corbyn for something somebody else hasn't done

A 3 way option on this issue is basically guaranteed to not provide a majority. It's a non solution. So yes you have a whole lot of explaining to do on it

You are asking for an end of at least a suspension of the party system. Not easy to do. Have other Remain leaders backed this?? Are you sure it wouldn't be trumped by the Leave campaign and Cummings?? It's high risk and highly complicated. To offer it as a solution and blame Corbin for it not happening is Trumpian in its sloganeering duplicity

My point on a no confidence vote is straight forward. The numbers were not there during the May period. Under Boris things are starting to change. Johnson's underhand tactics and his seeming appetite for no deal are stirring Tory rebels. The clock is running down so they feel they gotta act now. Also any Tory rebels have to counter any Labour rebels. If it's a no deal on offer then the number of Labour rebels recedes. There may be an opportunity to successfully prosecute a no confidence vote next week but there has not been to date. And people should not pretend that this has been sitting there as an easy option all along

Thats the most pessimistic Ive ever heard and not bore out on the critical votes so its really hypothetical fantasy stuff and since you've moved the goal posts a strawman into the bargin

Preference voting? Run off? not that much of stretch unless your deliberately trying to be obtuse

A major factor that the numbers weren't there during May's time was Corbyn himself..... but we're just going round in circles now

I not asking for anything but its probably thats prob the only route available at the minute considering how divided the remain side are. In the scenario that Labour had a more moderate stronger leader they could easily attract voters across the political spectrum and be a focal point to those opposed to a hard Brexit.

Besides I am not blaming Corbyn per se he's incapable, he is only doing what is in his powers which is the point your are trying to make and he is clearly not the man for the job. If there was a strong leader of the opposition he could easily command discipline within his own party and would be a rallying point for other no deal opponents.

[trueblue1234]

Are the passport collection points a costed proposal in your manifesto??

You are going to have to explain that one.

But then nobody is accusing Fintan O'Toole of being a fool

Without such an accusation you can disagree with him on a particular issue.
Do you dispute that SF going to Westminster would lead to a whole new issue of terrorists in government arising?

On the passports. I would hazard a guess that there are couple of million who possess Irish passports but by your definition have no business calling themselves Irish

Who is saying that SF taking their seats would lead to terrorists in government or an allegation of terrorists in government. Anyway allegations. We can withstand that for 90 days

But it would mean SF going against policy that they stood for and was voted for by the public. As you say to take the seats now would go against your view of democracy.