Tom Humphries

Started by bottlethrower7, January 29, 2007, 09:35:03 AM

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haranguerer

They're not commenting on the crime. They're commenting on their experience of Tom Humphries. How exactly would their experience of their friend change if he was found guilty of something they didn't know about?

vallankumous

Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 11:50:08 AM

I agree but by the same token, why should this be taken into consideration during the judicial process?

There is usually more to a person than the charges before the judge. It's rarely a case of someone being all good or all bad but they can be all good or all bad on one thing.
If that thing is the matter being discussed a judge might find one way or the other within a narrow narrative.

vallankumous

Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
But if these are presented by the defence who have sought "friends" of the accused to give a positive report, the bias of such should surely make them redundant?

I suppose we leave that to the judge and are expected to have some faith in their ability to judge. They are not for the a Jury.

Croí na hÉireann

Quote from: sambostar on October 31, 2017, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 31, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on October 31, 2017, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: sambostar on October 30, 2017, 06:39:03 PM
Can someone clarify did Walsh or Cusack not have the option to retract or disallow their statements to be used once Humphries pleaded guilty or when they heard all the evidence?

Ex High Court judge said on TV3 Tonight Show that there was no reason they couldn't have withdrawn their character references between the hearing and the delivery of the sentencing if they wanted.
Isn't that the whole point of a character reference I.e. it is only used after the person is found guilty. There would be no need for a character reference if they are found innocent.
Yes, agreed. But I thought either or both had used the argument that they were misled or didn't know the full story when giving the original references. If there was an opportunity for them to be withdrawn pre-sentencing then this argument is irrelevant. It casts both in a very poor light.

There has been nothing from Walsh to the best of my knowledge saying that he was misled, the likes of Dunphy have said that they were misled by him and that they believe he himself was misled. Cusack's paltry statement that he released in the dead of night when all the Sunday papers had gone to print said that he "showed a lack of judgement in this situation for which I am genuinely sorry". Surely if you make a decision you later regret, are genuinely sorry about it and there's an avenue to rectify the situation then you take that opportunity. Actions, not words in the dead of night.
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

haranguerer

Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
But if these are presented by the defence who have sought "friends" of the accused to give a positive report, the bias of such should surely make them redundant?

They're for sentencing, not guilt, so I can't imagine they're really related to the defence. In the same way the victim impact statements aren't really related to the prosecution - these are only relevant after that stage (and are equally 'biased').


haranguerer

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on October 31, 2017, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: sambostar on October 31, 2017, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 31, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on October 31, 2017, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: sambostar on October 30, 2017, 06:39:03 PM
Can someone clarify did Walsh or Cusack not have the option to retract or disallow their statements to be used once Humphries pleaded guilty or when they heard all the evidence?

Ex High Court judge said on TV3 Tonight Show that there was no reason they couldn't have withdrawn their character references between the hearing and the delivery of the sentencing if they wanted.
Isn't that the whole point of a character reference I.e. it is only used after the person is found guilty. There would be no need for a character reference if they are found innocent.
Yes, agreed. But I thought either or both had used the argument that they were misled or didn't know the full story when giving the original references. If there was an opportunity for them to be withdrawn pre-sentencing then this argument is irrelevant. It casts both in a very poor light.

There has been nothing from Walsh to the best of my knowledge saying that he was misled, the likes of Dunphy have said that they were misled by him and that they believe he himself was misled. Cusack's paltry statement that he released in the dead of night when all the Sunday papers had gone to print said that he "showed a lack of judgement in this situation for which I am genuinely sorry". Surely if you make a decision you later regret, are genuinely sorry about it and there's an avenue to rectify the situation then you take that opportunity. Actions, not words in the dead of night.

They regret they did what they did because of the ensuing witch hunt. The right action to take would have been to stand by their convictions regardless of the flak.

macdanger2

Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 02:08:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 12:03:50 PM
But if these are presented by the defence who have sought "friends" of the accused to give a positive report, the bias of such should surely make them redundant?

They're for sentencing, not guilt, so I can't imagine they're really related to the defence. In the same way the victim impact statements aren't really related to the prosecution - these are only relevant after that stage (and are equally 'biased').

Victim impact statements shouldn't really be taken into account though - if I'm drink driving & knock down a sixty year old junkie with no family or a young woman with two children who end up being taken into care,  it's the same crime I've committed

haranguerer

Macdanger makes the same point re victim impact statements and I'd agree with both.

I'd imagine victim impact statements are around to allow victims even the impression of some input into the trial, and it seems logical that if you're allowing that you also allow someone to speak up on behalf of the defendant.

I can't imagine judges take either very seriously - at least, they shouldn't.

vallankumous

Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 02:59:38 PM
Macdanger makes the same point re victim impact statements and I'd agree with both.

I'd imagine victim impact statements are around to allow victims even the impression of some input into the trial, and it seems logical that if you're allowing that you also allow someone to speak up on behalf of the defendant.

I can't imagine judges take either very seriously - at least, they shouldn't.

Maybe but they can also do other things. If the judge sees the charge is GBH and there is a plea of guilty the judge can look at notes and precedent and medical reports to decide the sentence. If however the victim has had other life impacts (maybe some phobia) that was not admissible it can still be given to the judge pre-sentence for consideration.

It will not affect the guilty plea.

haranguerer

Of course, but we're discussing character references here (and by extension victim impact statements), not the other things taken into account when sentencing

Main Street

Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 11:46:16 AM
They're not commenting on the crime. They're commenting on their experience of Tom Humphries. How exactly would their experience of their friend change if he was found guilty of something they didn't know about?
I agree but by the same token, why should this be taken into consideration during the judicial process?
Character references do refer directly to the charge in the context of the accused, otherwise a reference would have little relevance.
'I have known Joe Blogs for 30 years and I can say in all honesty that I have never known him to drive under the affluence of alcohol before, I believe this incident is an aberration and Joe has learned his lesson as he is a responsible person etc etc.'

It's up those who write a reference to be well acquainted with the charges and to know the plea of the accused. Walsh referred to the charges and the terrible suffering on the young girl in his reference, though overall it contained little else of note.
The judge did say she took into consideration the 2 references and also the mitigation factors into the sentencing. Those factors were the guilty plea and the big fall from grace. I doubt if Walsh's character reference held much if any weight with the judge. The judge appeared to put much focus on the fall from grace of the accused.

My gripe is that such a fall from grace is a mitigation factor in this sentencing as opposed to the depth of the trauma held by the young girl. If an elderly adult coach with zero public profile had groomed a young girl and had sex with her, would he have received a more lengthy sentence because he had not been seen to be already punished by such a fall from lofty grace?
I'd say the priority criteria for mitigation with the sentencing should lie elsewhere.

Was there any claim for damages by the young girl? was there even an offer made?
Is it up to the family to provide the cost for psychological support?

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2017, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 11:46:16 AM
They're not commenting on the crime. They're commenting on their experience of Tom Humphries. How exactly would their experience of their friend change if he was found guilty of something they didn't know about?
I agree but by the same token, why should this be taken into consideration during the judicial process?
Character references do refer directly to the charge in the context of the accused, otherwise a reference would have little relevance.
'I have known Joe Blogs for 30 years and I can say in all honesty that I have never known him to drive under the affluence of alcohol before, I believe this incident is an aberration and Joe has learned his lesson as he is a responsible person etc etc.'

It's up those who write a reference to be well acquainted with the charges and to know the plea of the accused. Walsh referred to the charges and the terrible suffering on the young girl in his reference, though overall it contained little else of note.
The judge did say she took into consideration the 2 references and also the mitigation factors into the sentencing. Those factors were the guilty plea and the big fall from grace. I doubt if Walsh's character reference held much if any weight with the judge. The judge appeared to put much focus on the fall from grace of the accused.

My gripe is that such a fall from grace is a mitigation factor in this sentencing as opposed to the depth of the trauma held by the young girl. If an elderly adult coach with zero public profile had groomed a young girl and had sex with her, would he have received a more lengthy sentence because he had not been seen to be already punished by such a fall from lofty grace?
I'd say the priority criteria for mitigation with the sentencing should lie elsewhere.

Was there any claim for damages by the young girl? was there even an offer made?
Is it up to the family to provide the cost for psychological support?

There are rules in writing a reference for a court case.  The main one is that you must not refer to the offence in the reference.  You may write about the character of the individual but not make statements regarding the crime.
Lawyers will select references from the range provided and choose those from individuals across the social and professional spectrum to build a favourable picture of the defendant.

Damages can be claimed from victims' funds provided by the state such as the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme.

Main Street

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on November 06, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2017, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 11:46:16 AM
They're not commenting on the crime. They're commenting on their experience of Tom Humphries. How exactly would their experience of their friend change if he was found guilty of something they didn't know about?
I agree but by the same token, why should this be taken into consideration during the judicial process?
Character references do refer directly to the charge in the context of the accused, otherwise a reference would have little relevance.
'I have known Joe Blogs for 30 years and I can say in all honesty that I have never known him to drive under the affluence of alcohol before, I believe this incident is an aberration and Joe has learned his lesson as he is a responsible person etc etc.'

It's up those who write a reference to be well acquainted with the charges and to know the plea of the accused. Walsh referred to the charges and the terrible suffering on the young girl in his reference, though overall it contained little else of note.
The judge did say she took into consideration the 2 references and also the mitigation factors into the sentencing. Those factors were the guilty plea and the big fall from grace. I doubt if Walsh's character reference held much if any weight with the judge. The judge appeared to put much focus on the fall from grace of the accused.

My gripe is that such a fall from grace is a mitigation factor in this sentencing as opposed to the depth of the trauma held by the young girl. If an elderly adult coach with zero public profile had groomed a young girl and had sex with her, would he have received a more lengthy sentence because he had not been seen to be already punished by such a fall from lofty grace?
I'd say the priority criteria for mitigation with the sentencing should lie elsewhere.

Was there any claim for damages by the young girl? was there even an offer made?
Is it up to the family to provide the cost for psychological support?

There are rules in writing a reference for a court case.  The main one is that you must not refer to the offence in the reference.  You may write about the character of the individual but not make statements regarding the crime.
Lawyers will select references from the range provided and choose those from individuals across the social and professional spectrum to build a favourable picture of the defendant.

Damages can be claimed from victims' funds provided by the state such as the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme.
If what you say is true then it would make  a reference even more worthless in court.
However,
according to Walsh he referred to the crime in his  reference
It was reported that 
'Walsh expressed shock at his offending´ in the reference

According to senior counsel Michael O'Higgins

http://www.newstalk.com/Barrister-denounces-backlash-against-Tom-Humphries-character-referees

He said criminal sentences are made up of five or six components – adding that while character references are taken into account, they are "at the back-end of the queue."

"In every reference; in any case; a person providing the reference will be directed to say, 'I know the circumstances of the case and I absolutely abhor and do not condone the behaviour,'" he said.

"They then go on to comment on that aspect of the personality that they know - and it is to put a full picture before the court.

"I think people get angry because in some way or another they think it is an insult to the victim or in some way or another they think they are condoning the actions and it is neither of those things.

"It is a way of putting down one piece in a rather large jigsaw. It has a place but its place can be very easily overstated."

seafoid

Quote from: Main Street on November 07, 2017, 01:25:26 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on November 06, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2017, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2017, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 31, 2017, 11:46:16 AM
They're not commenting on the crime. They're commenting on their experience of Tom Humphries. How exactly would their experience of their friend change if he was found guilty of something they didn't know about?
I agree but by the same token, why should this be taken into consideration during the judicial process?
Character references do refer directly to the charge in the context of the accused, otherwise a reference would have little relevance.
'I have known Joe Blogs for 30 years and I can say in all honesty that I have never known him to drive under the affluence of alcohol before, I believe this incident is an aberration and Joe has learned his lesson as he is a responsible person etc etc.'

It's up those who write a reference to be well acquainted with the charges and to know the plea of the accused. Walsh referred to the charges and the terrible suffering on the young girl in his reference, though overall it contained little else of note.
The judge did say she took into consideration the 2 references and also the mitigation factors into the sentencing. Those factors were the guilty plea and the big fall from grace. I doubt if Walsh's character reference held much if any weight with the judge. The judge appeared to put much focus on the fall from grace of the accused.

My gripe is that such a fall from grace is a mitigation factor in this sentencing as opposed to the depth of the trauma held by the young girl. If an elderly adult coach with zero public profile had groomed a young girl and had sex with her, would he have received a more lengthy sentence because he had not been seen to be already punished by such a fall from lofty grace?
I'd say the priority criteria for mitigation with the sentencing should lie elsewhere.

Was there any claim for damages by the young girl? was there even an offer made?
Is it up to the family to provide the cost for psychological support?

There are rules in writing a reference for a court case.  The main one is that you must not refer to the offence in the reference.  You may write about the character of the individual but not make statements regarding the crime.
Lawyers will select references from the range provided and choose those from individuals across the social and professional spectrum to build a favourable picture of the defendant.

Damages can be claimed from victims' funds provided by the state such as the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme.
If what you say is true then it would make  a reference even more worthless in court.
However,
according to Walsh he referred to the crime in his  reference
It was reported that 
'Walsh expressed shock at his offending´ in the reference

According to senior counsel Michael O'Higgins

http://www.newstalk.com/Barrister-denounces-backlash-against-Tom-Humphries-character-referees

He said criminal sentences are made up of five or six components – adding that while character references are taken into account, they are "at the back-end of the queue."

"In every reference; in any case; a person providing the reference will be directed to say, 'I know the circumstances of the case and I absolutely abhor and do not condone the behaviour,'" he said.

"They then go on to comment on that aspect of the personality that they know - and it is to put a full picture before the court.

"I think people get angry because in some way or another they think it is an insult to the victim or in some way or another they think they are condoning the actions and it is neither of those things.

"It is a way of putting down one piece in a rather large jigsaw. It has a place but its place can be very easily overstated."

Most prisoners in Roi come from 3 areas.  Inner city Dublin, Tallaght and Darndale. Character references help mitigate sentences for people from other areas .Criminal can be habitual or once off. The crime may be as a result of a personal traged or it may be systematic. The character reference examines this

Sex crimes are different because they are also committed by middle class people.  And everyone looks down on paedophiles.   Even scobies. 
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Main Street

Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 04:04:57 AM
Most prisoners in Roi come from 3 areas.  Inner city Dublin, Tallaght and Darndale. Character references help mitigate sentences for people from other areas .Criminal can be habitual or once off. The crime may be as a result of a personal traged or it may be systematic. The character reference examines this
For the record, it is not location but social/economic status which determines the likelihood of imprisonment, also add on ethnicity. A tiny ethnic group, the Travellers, make up 10% of the male and 22% of the female prisoners in Ireland


QuoteSex crimes are different because they are also committed by middle class people.  And everyone looks down on paedophiles.   Even scobies
Sex criminal rapists are mainly of a lower socioeconomic status, pedophiles are more of a mixed bunch I'd guess.
When it came to sentencing in this case, it would appear the judge took into careful consideration the fall from social grace as a part of his punishment already served. I came across that opinion (or similar) reported quite a few times, 'ah sure hasn't he already suffered greatly, isn't his life as he knew it in bits', 'hasn't he been made to suffer enough'?
'the sentence is about right'.