Teachers get it handy!

Started by wherefromreferee?, June 20, 2008, 08:49:07 AM

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BennyHarp

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 11:39:42 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: Rois on February 08, 2014, 08:28:40 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 06:34:31 AM
I doubt it's the teachers that have got Irelands finances into the mess that its in.
Having recently worked on local authority budgets, i can tell you that even if they were all paid €59k, the teachers are far down the pecking order of well paid public employees. So many local authority staff are ridiculously well paid.

Rois, there lies in a major problem. There are too many people shielded from austerity that others have had to bare the brunt. There are many other areas of the public and private sector were people are underpaid.

Bennyharp, I used have a few teachers who used boast how they would never get the sack (as their jobs were secure) and all the holidays they would get. Many of those teachers were good but several were useless and more interested in their farm, their private business (shop etc.) or their long trips away following the ROI soccer team around Europe for the summer.

I'm sure plenty of people you work with in the private sector are useless too. But it doesn't
mean everyone else is overpaid.

I work in the public sector.

Well I know nothing about your job but I think you are overpaid.
That was never a square ball!!

mayogodhelpus@gmail.com

#856
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 11:51:33 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 11:39:42 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: Rois on February 08, 2014, 08:28:40 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 06:34:31 AM
I doubt it's the teachers that have got Irelands finances into the mess that its in.
Having recently worked on local authority budgets, i can tell you that even if they were all paid €59k, the teachers are far down the pecking order of well paid public employees. So many local authority staff are ridiculously well paid.

Rois, there lies in a major problem. There are too many people shielded from austerity that others have had to bare the brunt. There are many other areas of the public and private sector were people are underpaid.

Bennyharp, I used have a few teachers who used boast how they would never get the sack (as their jobs were secure) and all the holidays they would get. Many of those teachers were good but several were useless and more interested in their farm, their private business (shop etc.) or their long trips away following the ROI soccer team around Europe for the summer.

I'm sure plenty of people you work with in the private sector are useless too. But it doesn't
mean everyone else is overpaid.

I work in the public sector.

Well I know nothing about your job but I think you are overpaid.

My teacher friends would disagree with you, in fact they would say I am underpaid. Then again they are used to my questioning of teachers holidays and they of course know my area of work. They have long moved beyond defending their holidays to gloating about them, to make an attempt at winning this old argument.

Personally I do not want additional pay, I am more annoyed at resources being removed from my area of work, pushing to the limits the standard of service we can provide and the worsening working conditions.
Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life.

mayogodhelpus@gmail.com

#857
Right, I am going to lay off the teachers for a while. I believe a high percentage do a good job and many deal with challenging behaviour (as does many many other people in their job), my gripe is the amount they get paid for time not actually worked. I have respect for most teachers despite what it may have appeared from my last few posts, that does not take from my annoyance at public funded holidays. Funds that could be spent on improving public services.
Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life.

BennyHarp

#858
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 12:12:57 PM
Right, I am going to lay off the teachers for a while. I believe a high percentage do a good job and many deal with challenging behaviour (as does many many other people in their job), my gripe is the amount they get paid for time not actually worked. I have respect for most teachers despite what it may have appeared from my last few posts, that does not take from my annoyance at public funded holidays. Funds that could be spent on improving public services.

My last point on the topic too - if teachers only got paid for the hours they were in school or college and didn't have to do anything outside of those hours then I would absolutely agree that they are over paid. What you fail to want to acknowledge is the many hours outside those hours that are not officially paid for - in effect the better, more conscientious teachers who spend time planning and marking etc get paid less for their time than the lazy ones you seem to have experience of.
That was never a square ball!!

ONeill

Quote from: michaelg on February 08, 2014, 11:44:49 AM
Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
I get something like 32000 a year after 14 years of teaching. That's more than enough. I could seek more if I wanted to through promotion etc but not interested. There's more to life than work and money.

Teachers are quare moaners. Try digging a hole.
More or less everyone moans about your their job.  Fair play to you if you are happy in yours.  When I worked as a teacher, I just found it a little annoying that people from outside the teaching profession regularly passed comment on teachers' holidays and pay etc, with little or no understanding of what the job actually entailed.
Incidentally, how long on average would you find yourself having to work per week to keep your head above water?

Couldn't put a number on it. As you said, it can change from month to month. For me, from late March to early July it's 6/7 days a week mostly, really stepping it up in June (every waking second) as I'm an examiner but that's my choice. In terms of weekly - 23 hrs class time, say 10 hours home prep, 6/7 hours for in-school prep and meetings. But it doesn't feel like keeping my head above water - apart from getting called Harry Hill or other types of shenanigans that comes with the territory of teaching in an inner-city secondary school - it's what I want to do and I hope I'm still enjoying it in 10 years time. There seems to be a real burn-out at around 50-52 so I'll hold back on declaring anything about my future.

If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.

I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

mayogodhelpus@gmail.com

#860
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 12:12:57 PM
Right, I am going to lay off the teachers for a while. I believe a high percentage do a good job and many deal with challenging behaviour (as does many many other people in their job), my gripe is the amount they get paid for time not actually worked. I have respect for most teachers despite what it may have appeared from my last few posts, that does not take from my annoyance at public funded holidays. Funds that could be spent on improving public services.

My last point on the topic too - if teachers only got paid for the hours they were in school or college and didn't have to do anything outside of those hours then I would absolutely agree that they are over paid. What you fail to want to acknowledge is the many hours outside those hours that are not officially paid for - in effect the better, more conscientious teachers who spend time planning and marking etc get paid less for their time than the lazy ones you seem to have experience of.

I acknowledge that many (maybe most) teachers are conscientious. I acknowledge many use their own time after their working day has ended to complete work related tasks. I remember teachers used to have free classes, I presume all use this time to try and get through some of those tasks, and do not take them as extra breaks.

In the ROI and in the UK, how much class time does an average teacher work each week?

Many other public (and private) sector employees work through their breaks, work hours of unpaid overtime on a regular basis, work unsociable hours and still work the full year around.
Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life.

mayogodhelpus@gmail.com

Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 12:40:59 PM

If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.

I'm not sure that is a "young'uns" thing. Moving away from teaching specifically. I find it irritating how some folks are always in a rush to take all their breaks (and then some) and are clock watching to go home and seem to go through the motions, while others work through all their breaks, work overtime for free, are willing to do all the unsociable hours and break their back carrying those going through the motions. I am sure this exists in teaching too.
Time to take a more chill-pill approach to life.

michaelg

Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
Quote from: michaelg on February 08, 2014, 11:44:49 AM
Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
I get something like 32000 a year after 14 years of teaching. That's more than enough. I could seek more if I wanted to through promotion etc but not interested. There's more to life than work and money.

Teachers are quare moaners. Try digging a hole.
More or less everyone moans about your their job.  Fair play to you if you are happy in yours.  When I worked as a teacher, I just found it a little annoying that people from outside the teaching profession regularly passed comment on teachers' holidays and pay etc, with little or no understanding of what the job actually entailed.
Incidentally, how long on average would you find yourself having to work per week to keep your head above water?

Couldn't put a number on it. As you said, it can change from month to month. For me, from late March to early July it's 6/7 days a week mostly, really stepping it up in June (every waking second) as I'm an examiner but that's my choice. In terms of weekly - 23 hrs class time, say 10 hours home prep, 6/7 hours for in-school prep and meetings. But it doesn't feel like keeping my head above water - apart from getting called Harry Hill or other types of shenanigans that comes with the territory of teaching in an inner-city secondary school - it's what I want to do and I hope I'm still enjoying it in 10 years time. There seems to be a real burn-out at around 50-52 so I'll hold back on declaring anything about my future.

If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.
When you say 'But it doesn't feel like keeping my head above water', do you mean that you are comfortably on top of things with that level of work or do you mean you still need do more?  In addition to what you have outlined re workload, I found the biggest killer was the marking - So time-consuming to complete it in line with school marking polices etc.
You are right about the burn-out thing.  Every year for about 5 years in the school I worked in, there was a teacher in their 50s who either had a breakdown, heart attack etc.  I could see the writing on the wall and chose to get out of it as a result.  You are also right about not seeking further promotion.  I became Head of Department, after my boss had a heart attack and had to retire, and it is absolutely not worth the hassle. 

BennyHarp

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 08, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 08, 2014, 12:12:57 PM
Right, I am going to lay off the teachers for a while. I believe a high percentage do a good job and many deal with challenging behaviour (as does many many other people in their job), my gripe is the amount they get paid for time not actually worked. I have respect for most teachers despite what it may have appeared from my last few posts, that does not take from my annoyance at public funded holidays. Funds that could be spent on improving public services.

My last point on the topic too - if teachers only got paid for the hours they were in school or college and didn't have to do anything outside of those hours then I would absolutely agree that they are over paid. What you fail to want to acknowledge is the many hours outside those hours that are not officially paid for - in effect the better, more conscientious teachers who spend time planning and marking etc get paid less for their time than the lazy ones you seem to have experience of.

I acknowledge that many (maybe most) teachers are conscientious. I acknowledge many use their own time after their working day has ended to complete work related tasks. I remember teachers used to have free classes, I presume all use this time to try and get through some of those tasks, and do not take them as extra breaks.

In the ROI and in the UK, how much class time does an average teacher work each week?

Many other public (and private) sector employees work through their breaks, work hours of unpaid overtime on a regular basis, work unsociable hours and still work the full year around.

It's not overtime though. Its part of the job everyday of every week. Personally I don't mind as I have myself well organised but every week I mark approx 125 A level homeworks for 5 groups which take approx 15 to 20 mins each. That's approx. 31.5 hours extra per week. Most of the "free lessons" are spent doing workshop with students who have either missed a lesson or who are struggling. This also doesn't include the 2 x 1 hour meetings per week and any preparation time. Like I said, I'm pretty well organised and love the job but I wouldn't consider myself overpaid. Just out of interest - what do you reckon would be a fair salary?
That was never a square ball!!

Cold tea

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 07, 2014, 11:41:13 PM
Secondary School Teachers get 12 paid weeks off in the Summer, approx 2 weeks at Xmas and say another 1 week at Easter. Lets not add in all the other random days they get off.

So that Is 15 weeks off (probably being very generous to teachers). Now lets minus the 3 weeks a new starter would have as annual leave in most other jobs (ie 12 weeks extra). Going on the pre-Jan 2011 payscales, a new stater in Dec 2010/Sept 2010 would now be on €33,041 (Ignoring all the other payments they can get).

So they get €33,041 for 37 weeks actually worked. Lets average that out to 49 weeks work that everyone else does (early part of career). So that means that if they had to work 49 weeks like everyone else on their rate of pay they would in fact be 3 years into their job on €43,757 a year.

If my maths are correct (and there is a good chance I have made an error) then someone 25 years into their career would be on €59,359 or €78,610 if the were to actually work a 49 week year.

Is that true, do they not get paid pro-rata?

Rois

Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 12:40:59 PM


If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.

It's the same in our place.

laoislad

Quote from: Rois on February 08, 2014, 05:15:49 PM
Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 12:40:59 PM


If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.

It's the same in our place.

It's the same everywhere. I've had apprentices that just didn't give a shite.
I would have gotten a kick up the hole if I was at that craic,from my boss and from my aul fella.
When you think you're fucked you're only about 40% fucked.

Tony Baloney

Quote from: Cold tea on February 08, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 07, 2014, 11:41:13 PM
Secondary School Teachers get 12 paid weeks off in the Summer, approx 2 weeks at Xmas and say another 1 week at Easter. Lets not add in all the other random days they get off.

So that Is 15 weeks off (probably being very generous to teachers). Now lets minus the 3 weeks a new starter would have as annual leave in most other jobs (ie 12 weeks extra). Going on the pre-Jan 2011 payscales, a new stater in Dec 2010/Sept 2010 would now be on €33,041 (Ignoring all the other payments they can get).

So they get €33,041 for 37 weeks actually worked. Lets average that out to 49 weeks work that everyone else does (early part of career). So that means that if they had to work 49 weeks like everyone else on their rate of pay they would in fact be 3 years into their job on €43,757 a year.

If my maths are correct (and there is a good chance I have made an error) then someone 25 years into their career would be on €59,359 or €78,610 if the were to actually work a 49 week year.

Is that true, do they not get paid pro-rata?
Annual salary paid in 12 equal monthly installments. Is this not common practice for salaried workers?

Tony Baloney

Quote from: laoislad on February 08, 2014, 05:18:41 PM
Quote from: Rois on February 08, 2014, 05:15:49 PM
Quote from: ONeill on February 08, 2014, 12:40:59 PM


If I had a gripe about the profession, it would be the attitude of trainee teachers. There seems to be a lack of willingness to really embrace the job and go all out to impress prospective employers by working damn hard. Maybe that's the same everywhere. Young'uns nowadays.

It's the same in our place.

It's the same everywhere. I've had apprentices that just didn't give a shite.
I would have gotten a kick up the hole if I was at that craic,from my boss and from my aul fella.
Would agree with that. Even the standard of application forms is atrocious for many graduates and too many come into work thinking the hard work is over. We are taking on more and more school leavers on apprenticeships as they are cheaper but seem keener to learn.

Cold tea

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 08, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: Cold tea on February 08, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 07, 2014, 11:41:13 PM
Secondary School Teachers get 12 paid weeks off in the Summer, approx 2 weeks at Xmas and say another 1 week at Easter. Lets not add in all the other random days they get off.

So that Is 15 weeks off (probably being very generous to teachers). Now lets minus the 3 weeks a new starter would have as annual leave in most other jobs (ie 12 weeks extra). Going on the pre-Jan 2011 payscales, a new stater in Dec 2010/Sept 2010 would now be on €33,041 (Ignoring all the other payments they can get).

So they get €33,041 for 37 weeks actually worked. Lets average that out to 49 weeks work that everyone else does (early part of career). So that means that if they had to work 49 weeks like everyone else on their rate of pay they would in fact be 3 years into their job on €43,757 a year.

If my maths are correct (and there is a good chance I have made an error) then someone 25 years into their career would be on €59,359 or €78,610 if the were to actually work a 49 week year.

Is that true, do they not get paid pro-rata?
Annual salary paid in 12 equal monthly installments. Is this not common practice for salaried workers?

My wife doesn't work July or August to look after the kids, she gets paid in 12 equal monthly installments pro-rata.  I thought this was true for teachers also.