Paul Kimmage

[Declan]

I'd be a fan of Kimmage and his writings and investigations over the years so willing to cut him a bit of slack on this. I do find his holier than thou black/white argument a bit tiring at times and his assertion re Gavin and the press conference on the radio that morning was spiteful and crazy. I deliberately didn't listen to the podcast with Fitzgerald - As he says himself I may be an asshole but at least I'm a consistent asshole

[seafoid]

Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.

If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.

[galwayman]

I'd be a fan of Kimmage and his writings and investigations over the years so willing to cut him a bit of slack on this. I do find his holier than thou black/white argument a bit tiring at times and his assertion re Gavin and the press conference on the radio that morning was spiteful and crazy. I deliberately didn't listen to the podcast with Fitzgerald - As he says himself I may be an asshole but at least I'm a consistent asshole

I'd be a fan of Kimmage's writing also. The books he has written were excellent and his articles (when not bleating on about doping in sport every week) can be really good too.
He is extremely painful to listen to though on radio/podcasts.
A great man for talking down to people and shouting people down to make himself heard.

[galwayman]

Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.

If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.

There is a difference I think between not begrudging the team that beats you their success and actively wanting them to beat your team though all the same.

[AZOffaly]

Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.

If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.

Not begrudging is not the same as actively hoping they win.

[sid waddell]

He is in his arse.

With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours

What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?

I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.

So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.

Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.

Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.

It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.

[Hound]

Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.

Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.

Is this not a great example of the media putting something forward, and the whole world taking it as gospel without engaging their own brains.

For the actual final kickout there was no Dublin cynical play, no Dublin players lying on top of a Mayo player. In an alternate universe had Mayo used their extra man to successfully execute that kickout and then worked the ball up to a scoreable position and got the equalizer, the narrative could have been all about how the rules are working. How the ref correctly punished the Dubs with a black card and how Mayo used the extra man to engineer an equaliser.

But because the keeper kicked it over the sideline, suddenly the whole reason Dublin held on was because of cynicism and that the rules don't punish it. It's nonsense!!

[magpie seanie]

The "cheating" thing is what gets me. Players take more that 4 steps which is against the rules all the time - are they "cheats"? Players pull jersies all the time which is against the rules - are they "cheats"? What's the threshold to become a "cheat"?

For someone who's supposed to be consistent Kimmage shows a massive amount of inconsistency in this case.

[easytiger95]

Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.

Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.

Is this not a great example of the media putting something forward, and the whole world taking it as gospel without engaging their own brains.

For the actual final kickout there was no Dublin cynical play, no Dublin players lying on top of a Mayo player. In an alternate universe had Mayo used their extra man to successfully execute that kickout and then worked the ball up to a scoreable position and got the equalizer, the narrative could have been all about how the rules are working. How the ref correctly punished the Dubs with a black card and how Mayo used the extra man to engineer an equaliser.

But because the keeper kicked it over the sideline, suddenly the whole reason Dublin held on was because of cynicism and that the rules don't punish it. It's nonsense!!

+1000

Black and yellow cards had been handed out, extra time added on to cover the incident, and Clarke was facing a kick out with 13 Mayo men versus 12 Dubs - and he puts it out over the line.

C'mon lads, Mayo were better off after the "cynicism" off the Dubs - there was at least a minute after the kick out was taken, plenty of time for a score if they hadn't lost possession - and the Dubs were on the attack when the whistle blew.

[easytiger95]

He is in his arse.

With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours

What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?

I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.

So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.

Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.

Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.

It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.

Hi, I'm from Dublin and I've been following them since 83. And I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thanks.

[seafoid]

The thing about blind loyalty is that you either have it or you don't.  It cannot be taught. My mother drunk or sober. Dubs drunk or sober. It is a brain setting.

[easytiger95]

I wouldn't say blind loyalty, I have been hyper critical of the dubs in company over the years - but as a Dubs fan, I won't listen to anyone else slagging them off 

[seafoid]

We are also supposed to be loyal to Oireland drunk or sober. Loyal to the bank guarantee and all the other shite.

[Dinny Breen]

Kimmage for all his morals and ethics is very quiet over his "good friend" Tom Humphries....

[sid waddell]

He is in his arse.

With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours

What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?

I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.

So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.

Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.

Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.

It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.

Hi, I'm from Dublin and I've been following them since 83. And I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thanks.

I imagine plenty of Dublin supporters have an idea of what I'm talking about, given that the attendances at their Leinster matches and All-Ireland quarter-finals have plummetted in this decade compared to the last.

And that these matches, and you can throw in this year's semi-final too, have atmospheres like morgues.

So clearly a lot Dublin people find the majority of Dublin matches to be rather boring these days.