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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

Poll
Question: Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.
Option 1: Yes votes: 136
Option 2: No votes: 104
Option 3: Undecided votes: 18
Title: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
I honestly think it's time to give this another thought.  The reality is that the All-Ireland will probably be won by one of four teams.  For the rest of us it's just a matter of how far we can go.  It's not if but when we will be beaten.  I have to admit I was no big fan of the Tommy Murphy cup but I'm beginning to think that once division 3 and 4 teams are beaten, (before a certain date) they should play in a b championship with the winners and runners up rejoining the championship at the quarter final stages (or the runner up joining one stage earlier).  It's time for the tortoises to stop running against the hares.

I know a lot of the managers are not a big fan of this but I think in time they might warm to it.  The chance to be competitive and win something could eventually swing the pendelum.
I put up a poll to see what the appetite is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
RTE interviewed 10 'lower tier' managers about it, and only the Longford manager seemed strongly in favour of a B championship. The rest either didn't want it at all, or wanted it as a 'losers competition' for teams beaten early in the championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Tubberman on June 26, 2017, 01:07:35 PM
If the secondary competition winner was awarded a 3rd or 4th round qualifier spot, I think there may be more of an appetite for it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 26, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
More to a cup competition than who can win it. The underdog stories like Down winning against the odds v Monaghan last Saturday or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on June 26, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Fair point but it does not hide the gap (at the moment) between the top 12 and the rest.
Would the winners and runners up of  "B" having a play in game to the Q/finals not be a better option. At least the teams in question would have three or four wins under their belt at that stage, rather than the one and done the majority of them face right now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 26, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
I think a better way of looking a t it would be to have staged entry into the one competition depending on league standings.

so div 3& 4 enter at round 1, the winners play the div 2 teams in round 2, the winners of that play the div 1 teams in round 3 .

This would be similar to the way the FA cup is structured with the Premier league teams coming in at the 3rd round stage.

This would give every county in Ireland the opportunity to play in the Sam Maguire competition, and return us to the proper knockout format we used to have.

The main stumbling block will be the resistance to separate the all Ireland from the provincial competitions.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on June 26, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.

I was at the offaly V Cavan game last night and came away feeling bad for offaly . its very hard to build a  system with only a few games a years they have several excellent players but who knows how many of them will be there next summer and maybe even a new manager so they have no time to build they could definitely benefit from a secondary competition esp with a round robin element  . A not so super 8 if you like.
one incentive id like to see is a way back into the A system to keep every one interested.

Im sure TG4 would love to cover it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 26, 2017, 02:31:47 PM
There is little appetite for a B or C competition despite all of the logic in favour of it.  Counties want to have a go every year.

A better approach would be to seed the competition according to league position and give the lower division teams a chance to compete with each other and in their provinces before the higher divisions joins the competition.  The bottom 16 could be reduced to 4 teams. Teams would still get 2 meaningful knockout games as present.

This gives a knockout competition to lower division teams with the chance of those surviving the next rounds a chance to giant kill.  It would remove the qualifiers and have the provincial competitions as secondary to the AI competition with only winers making it through to a final 8 knockout competition.

Unfortunately, this will never fly with those wanting to milk the spectators with the super 8 games which show who the GAA management are really interested in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.

Leinster is actually decent to watch when the Dubs aren't playing :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
I agree completely with AZ's penultimate post. The topic is primarily media-driven.

Having said that, I think the best chance of a change being made is to provide a route from any second or third division championship back into the race for the All-Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2017, 03:13:40 PM
I realise that many of the managers didn't actually state they wanted a B championship but the sentiment amongst many of them that there wasn't enough games.

Entry to round 4 qualifier or even a quarter final place for winners of such a competition should satisfy the needs of all counties taking part.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
That's what I said AZ. People are saying we need a 2 or 3 tier championship but it's usually just games involving Kerry and Dublin in their provinces that are completely one sided. Mayo rarely hammer anyone in Connacht though Tyrone have wiped the floor with Derry and Donegal so far in Ulster.

Remove those teams from the provincials and all of a sudden it's quite interesting again.
Kildare, W-Meath or Meath would be rejuvenated if they won Leinster and went into the 1/4 finals with that win under their belt. Kildare in 2010 was the last time a Leinster team got to the semis besides the Dubs.

In the last 6 years Dublin and Mayo have been in the semis every year with Kerry missing out one year in 2012.
Tyrone and Donegal have usually been the 4th team though Tipperary took that prize last year.

2016 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tipp
2015 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2014 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2013 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2012 Cork,  Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2011 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

if the panel of 25-30, that makes up each intercounty squad, existed in isolation to solely play for the county, then yes some sort of second or third tier competition, after an initial provincial defeat, may serve a purpose to fill the remainder of their summer. But these panellists are not the property of the intercounty scene, they also have their clubs to serve. Many clubs throughout the land and their inter county players, would probably place more masse in concentrating on winning the local club championship than seeing these players on county duty at 2nd or 3rd tier level deep into july or august, playing in games attracting poor attendances and given lip service by the media, with possibly 1 or 2 minutes of highlights(if any on RTE).

The only way for the weak to build is through a decent league campaign and then look forward to championship scalp, the dream of the scalp fosters the reason for  the hard work during the winter months.....take away the dream and the application is likely to be diluted.

for example, Antrim are rated the poorest outfit in Ulster. Once every ten years or so, they do pop up and beat a perceived superior rival in the Ulster championship. I am sure the vast majority associated with Antrim would prefer the crack at a shock in ulster each year in preference to a first round 3rd tier game against say Waterford in front of 200 people in Dungarvan.


Clubs are entitled to their players from July onwards, and the GAA was set up in an original way whereby most counties were finished the intercounty scene by the end of July bar the all Ireland semi finalists.  Creating 2nd and 3rd tier levels will make a dogs ear of the club championship scene in many counties.

straight knockout was and remains the best option for intercounty GAA....it is not returning because Croke Park now needs to maximise gate receipts to pay for a raft of full time officials(including secretaries in counties)..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness.

in truth, introducing 2nd and 3rd tier competitions will sound a death knell to the competitiveness of many counties, as player interest and supporter interest in the system will gradually erode.

we have had the lower tier hurling competitions for a number of years, and not one of the minnows have made any shape of getting closer to the elite 8/9....in fact in truth, from an original competitive 12 or so, the likes of Offaly, Antrim and Laois are falling further away each season from the top 8/9, and nothing outside the top 9 will be competitive in that top bracket for the foreseeable future.

creating tiers 2 and 3 for football is the GAAs apartheid.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PAULD123 on June 26, 2017, 04:07:51 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness......

Enthusiasts on these forums try to solve sporting issues. The Sporting administrators are trying to solve financial issues.

Sad but all too true
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath

Re-entering the championship in the present year is complete nonsense.

The idea that weak counties necessarily have great club championships because their county teams are out early is also a bit suspect, is the Carlow club championship better than that of Dublin or Kerry?

And as for straight knockout, the extra games  not only serve to raise money but serve to raise the profile of the GAA which brings in many of the people who are in these clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on June 26, 2017, 04:41:22 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.

If it was done properly there is no reason why it wouldnt succeed on a National level.

Main issue would been apathy towards anything other than the big one. Marketing would be key here in making it attractive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 26, 2017, 04:50:17 PM
the main issue here is the Dubs.
and the imbalance of them getting most games in Croke Park.

there isn't as big a gap between all the other counties playing in provinical venues
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: Taylor on June 26, 2017, 04:41:22 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.


Exactly and that's my favourite with promition/relegation as in Club championships across the Country.
I would still retain the Provincials with all in and then 3 AI Championships.
Make the TV deal so that for every Senior game the TV company would have to do an Inter and Junior game too.

A 2 tier thingy will do nothing for the 6 or 8 weakest teams and if it's not part of a promotion relegation structure then the B is only a tournament for a shiny cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
So Dublin get Wicklow and beat them by 30 points in each leg. I'd say Wicklow would be happier with one hammering and a chance at a more favourable draw in the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
No matter who Dublin get unless another top 3 team, they will most likely win by 20+ points.
Dublin away to Donegal, Monaghan or Tyrone would be an exciting game.
I don't agree two leg though. Straight knockout 1 game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
What does two legs achieve though?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blue Island on June 26, 2017, 05:28:17 PM
This old argument comes up every year and I think it is media driven. This is a matter solely for those Counties who are struggling and for no one else. I would imagine they would have no truck with some form of B or C tier competition. There would be zero interest and one only has to look at the second tier hurling competitions to see how that would end up.

Even if Croke Park did throw a load of money and resources at it (unlikely), they can't force RTE, the print media to follow suit and give the games the attention they might deserve.

The real issue is the amateur ethos of our games and the primary rule that you play for the County you were born in. If we had a professional game where you could transfer between Counties, it might be reasonable to have a two, or three tier system, where better/more ambitious players could transfer.  Not that I am advocating that.

It is not justified to say to players in Leitrim or Antrim, you are now playing in a secondary competition by dint of your birth and you will suck it up.

I would draw a comparison with nations qualifying for the Euros and the World cup. Yes, the tournament itself is for qualifiers only, akin to the All Ireland quarter finals, but every nation starts with the same chance.  France will play San Marino etc, because there is an acceptance that every nation is sovereign and treated with equal status and an acknowledgement that players can only play for the Country they were born it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 26, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
If you favour a second tier, you'd have to have Down in it. Longford beat them in the qualifiers this weekend last year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 06:30:58 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
They're not dead rubbers. Dead rubbers, as I understand them, are games that don't matter for whatever reason. If the first leg is a 20 point victory then I think you could call the second leg a dead rubber. Multiply that by about four or five ties (likely).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 06:32:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.

Well, Carlow could draw Leitrim then Antrim and get to a QF. Mayo could face Dublin, winners meeting Kerry. So you could have Carlow in a QF, with Dublin and Kerry gone.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:35:59 PM
I could win the lotto.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Stall the Bailer on June 26, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 11:38:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 26, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Previous new winners Derry 93, Donegal 92, Offaly 71,Down 61. Meath 49.
Not much sign of any new County making a breakthrough in the next 5 or 6 years at least.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:02:14 AM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:04:59 AM
A second tier would give the GAA an excuse to hide away the useless teams just like they hide them away during the league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 27, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
After I investigated the Kerry Senior Championship Ive become a great fan, I genuinally think its the reason that they are so sucessful as players from small clubs have a chance to play on an equal footing with the big clubs and it also means the standard of the championship is higher

Anyway could we apply this model to the SFC??

I was thinkin  have the 2nd Tier championship minus the top 8 or 10 and replace the lower leagues with that championship. Obiviously it would still be some sorta league format as losing R1 teams end up with 1 game
Then have the provincials as usual.
Then pool the 2nd Tier teams into regional sides to give them a crack at the SFC agin the top teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on June 27, 2017, 06:46:24 AM
I've a real bee in my bonnet when it comes to people saying things like how "it would need to be marketed properly..."

All across Ireland and the world there are sports that don't get bums on seats, and they all perceive that a lack of marketing is the issue. League of Ireland? Check. Ladies football? Check. Christy Ring? Check.

It's all very well to say that two days ago, there was a gap there, and that RTE could have showed a lower tier game. But what about the previous week? Would the armchair pundits, up to and including a lot of people on here, been happy that either Donegal vs Tyrone or Cork vs Waterford went untelevised so that a game like the Christy Ring final could be shown instead?

Christ the same Joe Brolly thinks it's a disgrace that there are GAA games on Sky, even though there's 40-odd games on terrestrial TV over the summer now. But think about it. Is it a real surprise that TV pundits, who depend on TV punditry for gigs, want a system where there are more big games between the big counties, so more games that "need" to be televised, and thus more punditry gigs on the go?


Moreover, you don't have to go far in Kerry or Dublin to find an ex-player who thinks a B championship is the answer. However I'll start to believe that it's the way to go when a player who would be playing in it comes out and says that he'd have an extra spring in his step if they went that road. If a lad I know to be a solid, committed player who loves his county - I'll give the example of Brian Darby for Offaly, who some of ye will know from TG4's seo spóirt - if he comes out and says that he'd prefer to represent Offaly in a competition like that, I'll listen. If some ould lads from Kerry tell him that's where he should be locked away into, that's not going to twist my arm. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 27, 2017, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Better still...
Dublin NE - Ulster
Dublin NW - Connacht
Dublin SW - Munster
Dublin SE - Leinster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs.
Roscommon 2-23 Leitrim 1-9.

How many Qualifier games have Leitrim won?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 27, 2017, 11:14:50 AM
Quote from: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.

Part of the issue is that the Dubs continue to have home advantage.  they weren't just as hot when taken out of Dublin to play Carlow.  Surely Westmeath deserved an opportunity to play Dublin in the semi final in a major ground in Leinster but not Croke Park that should be reserved for provincial finals and AI quarter finals onwards?

In a smaller stadium with the home crowd closer to the play, it would at least create some levelling for other Leinster teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be.  Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:20:01 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:02:14 AM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?

Yeah that'd be the same Dublin who are back to back ai champions having won 4 of the last 6 all Irelands and who've won 12 of the last 13 leinsters, currently on 7 in a row. Take the blinkers off lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 27, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
I'd like to know what the counties who tend to occupy division 4 county boards think.  Do the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Antrim, Waterford & Wicklow want the extra games?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 27, 2017, 12:59:49 PM
I think what we all learned from RTE's interview with 10 managers shown on Sunday night was that non of them want to be viewed as second rate teams and want to be in with a chance of playing against the big boys at some stage.

However, I think most of us (even the Dubs) enjoy the season when we get a decent run of games where we win a few and have excitement, hope, joy, fear, incident and out for a few jars and a meal to discuss the day. Many of us know we're not gonna win Sam but we can still enjoy the summer and that happens mainly when we play teams around the same level as us.
Whilst it's nice to win your province, I love the idea of going to an away venue for a Sat night game and staying the night and meeting up with old friends etc.

The loyalty to the provincials is a huge stumbling block for most people as they feel they are breaking tradition if they walk away from that set up.

The most simpliest solutuon would seem to be that the top 2 divisions play off against each other and the bottom 2 divisions do the same. It would mean teams from lower divisions still have a chance to get to the 1/4 finals (super 8s) whilst playing competive games with teams at similar levels. As we saw at the weekend Carlow v London was a good game as were a few others qualifiers.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:34:04 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 27, 2017, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?

Yes, if we meet in the Super 8 I'd expect Dublin to be asked to play us in Castlebar. Fat chance of that happening! It would be horsed up to Croker to keep the Corporate Boxes full and the Big wigs happy. Same would happen with your idea of playing in Connacht. The final would end up in Croker!  Do you get the general idea of how it works now!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.

Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4

Don't draw a totally arbitrary line to begin with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: vallankumous on June 27, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 02:49:42 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.

Absolutely brilliant idea. The top tier competition would end up being called the All Ireland AIG Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
From 2010 to this year (including the games played this year) Division 4 teams have played 155 games in the championship and only beaten non-Division 4 opposition 15 times.

The breakdown of those 15 wins

Division 3 - 10 wins

Division 2 - 4 wins

Division 1 - 1 win
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 28, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.

But more people in this poll voted no to separate championships (or did I misunderstand the question?).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 02:49:42 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.
Above 17 won 9 Provincial SFCs out of 100 played in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 05:37:56 PM
Twas 10 actually, not 9.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
If you take out the counties that are in div 1 or 2 (Roscommon, Cavan and Monaghan ) how many provincials are you left with???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Leitrim 1
Sligo 1
Laois 1
Westmeath 1
Clare 1
Offaly 1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2017, 08:22:51 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
The decline of pubs and the growth of drinking at home are also Sean Boylan's fault
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 28, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 28, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.

Remarkable that we now have such influence in a competition we don't participate in
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 09:09:00 PM
The numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 10:34:07 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

I don't think GAA ticket prices have gone up that much, compared to other sports (rugby, LOI) or other entertainment - cinema and concerts.
This is only my own feeling though.
Anyone have any data?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 29, 2017, 10:11:52 AM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 29, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 29, 2017, 10:11:52 AM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Yeah that's a straight comparison between 2001 and 2016 but the thing is the attendances have been steadily trending downward year-on-year, all while the population has been booming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 29, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Which means it is not favoured by just over half who expressed a preference.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 28, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster

When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: SCFC on June 29, 2017, 08:45:39 PM
I think it has to be done before long.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Scarlet on June 29, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level.

I am playing in my head the scenes at the county board meetings with that being discussed up and down the country. Anyone here who has ever been to one close their eyes and you can imagine the people going red in the face talking about this.
As I said no county will agree to it no matter what the facts will say.
I for one voted undecided as I honestly don't know until there is more definite parameters. I think dumping all Div 3 and 4 teams down is the cleanest method and would mean the league would be given even more attention but is a nuclear option vefore we even really go for more restructuring within the current system.

If things stay as they are then the suits in Croke Park will be blamed but the grassroots are the ones who will shout loudest against an A and B option.
As I say there is no real logic to it. You have lads from Junior clubs who are playing county and they look around their dressing room back home and accept that is their level. In their hearts they must look around the county dressing room and realise that coming up against certain teams they just are not able to compete.
But for the club it is OK and if they won a county junior title it would be a source of pride. But trying to bring that into intercounty seems to be just a case of not swallowing pride.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:33 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 29, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:33 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....

Dust off the trophy cabinet lads, Tommy Murphy Mark II is on the way!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on June 30, 2017, 12:07:10 AM
Everybody's done very well, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?

The one with enough diesel.

Too many here trying to reducing this to a cute little one line methapor. It will never fit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 09:31:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
But is that dissimilar to other sports?
Premier Leauge - 25 odd years and six winners. Two of whom have won it once each.
Scottish Premier League - Two winners in about 30 years
Spanish League - Three winners - Four winners in 17 years, with Atletico winning it once and Valenica twice, the last of which is 13 years ago.

I know I've only quoted soccer, as it's all I otherwise follow, but I think you know that there's more to entering than winning.

Horses with no chance of winning the Grand National enter every year. At every Olympics you see athletes and swimmers finishing double digit seconds behind the winners of the heats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 09:46:58 AM
We need a competition that everybody wins in turn. Or maybe everybody could get a wee cup and some medals every year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
The supporters of these teams keep attending the games though and I don't think the type of Olympians I mentioned climb much of a ladder.

My point is that there is more to sport that winning and I think that, regardless of your view on this topic, that it's very clear that this is the case in the inter-county scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
But you seem to be ignoring the point I'm making.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
A 32 team professional sport = NFL.

Last 20 years.

Packers
Broncos
Rams
Ravens
Patriots
Buccaneers
Steelers
Colts
Giants
Saints
Seahawks

And beaten finalists
Falcons
Titans
Raiders
Panthers
Eagles
Bears
Cardinals
49ers

So out of 32 teams, in the last 20 years there have been 19 different teams in the Superbowl. Obviously some powerhouses like the Patriots appear more than once, but nonetheless that's quite a competitive spread.

Of course the NFL is professional, and thus has movement of players which we do not want. However they have twigged that they need to enforce financial constraints (salary cap) and player welfare considerations thrashed out in the CBA to minimise length of season, off season training etc.

They do a lot wrong in the NFL, but they realise that allowing the big teams free rein in terms of financial power leads to lopsided competition structures, so they've tried to reduce that.

Interestingly, you could say they have a two phased Championship. Everyone plays 16 games, and then the top 6 in both provinces, I mean conferences, play a straight knockout playoffs for the Superbowl.

We can't lift and shift the NFL structure onto Gaelic football, but we can consider their approach to shared revenue and salary caps in a bid to level the playing field. This from the most capitalistic sport in the most capitalistic country in the world.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

Is it the case that lesser numbers are going to matches now because supporters think they have no chance of winning?
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ourselves and Leitrim had no chance of winning an all ireland in 2009/10/11 either so the fall off in attendance is not due to us and Leitrim all of a sudden becoming uncompetitive (in fact, you could argue that we are more competitive now because we are in div 1/2 of the league vs Divs 3/4 in those years).

I'm not convinced that putting us and Leitrim in an inter/junior comp will automatically result in crowds increasing.

Is it possible to get league attendance figures from the last few years? An interesting test would be to check attendances at games between the same teams in different divisions of the league. For example, Ros V Cavan in Div1, Div2 and Div3. or Ros V Mon in Div1 against Div 3 a few years ago. I know there are other factors at play (e.g. different venues etc.) but I would guess that attendances were higher when teams meet in Div 1 rather than the lower division even though the teams would have better chances of winning the lower division. I could be proved wrong, but it'd be interesting to see the stats.
Other teams off the top of my head that would have meet in different divisions, RosVDown, TyroneVCavan, CorkVDown, WestmeathVKildare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
No, that the main stakeholders, i.e. players, management, spectators, don't necessarily see the ability to win Sam as the main factor for remaining in the race to win it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

NCAA is not. It's the most lopsided of all even though it is amateur. Granted some TV rights and the like are shared between conferences, but there's nothing to stop big colleges paying massive coaching salaries, or in the biggest schools recruiting the best players because they have the best facilities or the big name.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap I believe, and therefore you have massive wage bills and free agent signings. When the Yankees are involved, they usually get who they want, or at least they did up until about 5 years ago. They have introduced a luxury tax alright, which penalises those high salaries, but it's not stopping them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
Should more counties go down the "Jack Charlton route"?

Maybe all minor and U21 teams from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, (etc?) ... should be made list where their parents are from, e.g:

Sean Og O hAilpin - mother from Fiji, father from Fermanagh

So if he hadn't made the breakthrough into the Cork senior team, Fermanagh (or Fiji!) could have tried to persuade him to play with them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

There was only 5 different winners in those years (sharing 22 titles)
Kerry 10 titles
Dublin 4 titles
Offaly 3 titles
Cork 3 titles
Meath 2 titles

And a number of those finals were non-events as it was so one-sided.

I'm sure teams still want the opportunity to play for the top prize, it doesn't matter it they are rank outsiders, they still want the chance to take on a big team, a chance of Provincial/ All Ireland glory etc.

A local club example would be Glenullin, they were relegated from the top division in 2015, which meant that they would play in the Intermediate C'ship in 2016 (League and C'ship is linked in Derry).  Instead they applied to play in the Senior C'ship, which was granted to them.  This meant a rejig of the draw and a Premlim fixture had to be played. Glenullin were beaten by 6pts by Loup in the first round.

Glenullin, won the Intermediate league at a canter.  They probably would have won the Intermediate C'ship easily, and could possibly have won Ulster and All-Ireland titles.  But they wanted the opportunity to play in the Senior Championship.  They would probably make the same decision again if it happened.

The promises of similar coverage, and big days in Croke Park for Intermediate and Junior teams playing in the Paidi Cup, or whatever they would be called, are ridiculous. Look at the coverage the finals of the Ring, Rackard, Meagher had this year.  The finals were held on a random Saturday in June. It was only being streamed on the TG4 website.  Its not something that you accidentally find when you are scrolling through the channels.  You had to know where to go to find the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hurling finals.  Exactly the same thing would happen in the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
[/b]
No idea and no idea why you're asking me in response to my point.

It might be that if a tiered championship was introduced that it would be the best thing that the GAA ever did. However, as it stands, there will be huge resistance to it for many reasons. Not agreeing with the logic doesn't mean they don't exist regardless of what you try to compare it to.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Quote from: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Quote from: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

Aka Tommy Murph lite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 30, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
87 also had a draw between Cork and Galway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 01, 2017, 09:12:56 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Hardly. Nobody said the Ulster boys did anything. The point, right or wrong, was that the weaker hurling counties had gotten weaker.

Rossfan is not at his usual best on this thread, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 01, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

There was fûck all chance of Leitrim giving us a game and us Connacht champions in 2011.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
I would support  a second tier featuring Dublin and Kerry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Quote from: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:52:30 PM
Quote from: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.
If it was a proper competition with decent rewards then yes absolutely. Hurlers don't have a problem playing in the Nicky rackard and Christy ring competitions. Teams of similar standards playing against each other with promotion and relegation based on performance. A lot of sports have been using this simple basis for their competitions for centuries!!!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on July 01, 2017, 08:03:23 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Quote from: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.

More to cup competitions than just winning them. Upsets like Down last week or competitive performance from the underdogs like Derry,Longford  today draws plenty of interest. Down,Kildare,Roscommon,Cork all underdogs in the upcoming provinal finals would all take a provincial title over some 2nd tier Championship title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on July 01, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2017, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: giveballaghback on July 01, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)

We have that Already it's called Hurling!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ONeill on July 01, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
The weird thing is that a lot of the two-tiered county vocalists are supposedly avid club men.

If that's the case, who gives a fook how many tiers there are at county level. The sooner your club men are out the better.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on July 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
Quote from: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.

It wasn't always that way.
The finals used to be played before the AI semi-finals in August then we'd "hurling" men in Nicky Brennan and Christy Cooney coming in and changing it so that the minors were back in before those games.

Can't argue with your last point though although Westmeath, Carlow and Laois would be a bit yoyo from CR to AI series.

Ulster hurling is on its uppers and is poorly served by the Ulster Football Council.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 03:27:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.

You're actively turning people against the idea of a second tier with stuff like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
He's not wrong as I assume nobody suggested to him anything about being able to re-enter the AI series.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 13, 2017, 04:13:30 PM
First of all we would need to know how many teams are in the second tier? 16, 12, 8? Secondly how would we rank them? Would it be based solely on league rankings every year? Would it create more emphasis on the league? Or should I say would year 1 be based on league rankings and the rest as up down relegation/promotion in the new championship format itself?

I have another question, why just because you won the second tier championship should you automatically be re-entered into the top tier 'last whatever number' as FtB says? Should that not be for the top tier counties only? People cite the junior, intermediate and senior model, but I have never known an intermediate winner to automatically be guaranteed a senior quarter final place?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just stating some questions that I'm sure individual county boards might ask if they were asked to vote on it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 13, 2017, 04:16:53 PM
With all this talk of re-entry, can someone give an example of a county where the Intermediate champions are then allowed in the Senior championship semi finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 04:38:02 PM
I totally favour the 3 tier Senior Inter Junior model as per Club Championships.
However I doubt I'll live to see it so we're talking what might pass Congress and what would the weak/ Hurling Counties go for.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 13, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
I think first the calender should be sorted out for clubs and county A compact season for both) , all counties get at least say four championship games at a minimum along with 7 league games and some sort of central pot for coaching and development is organised with the weakest teams being funded from this the most per head of population (ala draft position in American Football) , trial this for a decade , then if intercounty is as divided as it is now then go for a tiered championship!!

I just think not much really has been tried to even the playing field at all apart from the qualifiers but if weaker counties got a genuine chance to develop I think they could have success but we are always going to have bad counties and one sided games no matter what system is in place!! More games less training and a proper calender will give counties with a good plan a chance for succes in my opinion!!

( see I am asking for feck all change really ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 06:35:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??

You don't need to be a top four team to be a vibrant part of the championship..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
What's a "vibrant part of the Championship"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:48:14 PM
Quote from: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
What about  Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
They would have to stop sending top players to Meath as well
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LCohen on July 13, 2017, 07:12:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.

There are 3 options for a tiered championship.

Straight forward tiered system where everyone starts and ends the champions in tier 1 or 2. Promotion for the winners and some sort fight in the colosseum to identify who replaces them.

A champions league style group that determines your position in the tiered knock out competitions. Tiered competitions running in parallel.

Lower tier played out first with entry into the upper tier for the winner.

Option 3 is a scheduling nightmare.

No doubt serious drug testing with serious consequences for cheating is a must.

A serious look at funding is also required
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 03:05:26 AM
A lot of counties can go a long time without shooting the lights out  and doing a good run in the qualifiers  a la Carlow this year.  Football has a structural problem in that Sam tends to be shared amongst a small group of counties unless something special  comes out of Ulster.

While there have been decent provincial and qualifier runs over recent years by teams such as Tipp, Clare, Sligo, London, Antrim, Longford, Fermanagh and Meath, it has usually been against enormous odds and hard to replicate. And for every D3/D4 team that does it there are at least 10 that are out of contention by mid June. Would a 2 Tier system lift the overall standard and make an all Ireland by an untouchable county more likely? Maybe it would, if combined with financial reform. Would the counties support such a proposal that might shake up the system? No. Counties and players love their chains. They are still loyal to that  one in 40 year thing. To win just once 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on July 14, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
Have you been drinking?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
I like the inept category
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?

;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 14, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????


I think Ross the Gaa should instigate an independent review of these counties and major urban areas (especially since they have a sucessful urban area in Dublin to go off) and put it to these counties to come up with a viable plan to improve. Money should only be committed on the basis of a workable long term plan i.e not just building a big concrete stand or hiring a big name manager!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
They all have soccer cultures

I think Wicklow should be colonised by motivated club players from the west coast . The local Irish in places like Baltinglass could function as backup
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 02:46:47 PM
Agreed but would they need a Croke Park full time official to wore with them in devising the right plan and overseeong/driving it.
The point I was making in my light hearted categories piece (lost on some I'd think) is that the AI SFC is the preserve of the few, that population, hurling, 6 Cos demographics and ineptiness rules out up to 20 Counties from future competing seriously for Sam.
So do we 20 odd keep hoping we might draw a few weak teams like Carlow did, get the odd oul Provincial or get to the Quarters via the Qualifier now and then or pray that a load of Kerry men will marry in and breed better players?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want.
To date, I think they have listened. They've acknowledge that there is an appetite to retain the provincials and that there's not an appetite to bring in a tiered-championship among inter-county players.

Supporters may be split on this but the campaign is mostly coming from elements of the media. The GAA get a lost of abuse for the decisions they make but we can only hope that they don't let such campaigns guide them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

And you who won't be that bothered if Roscommon are placed into Intermediate/B section competition!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

I'm still laughing at the idea best Connacht final victory in at least 37 years makes the year a 5/10. I'll get back to you when I stop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 14, 2017, 05:43:22 PM
i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

With all the negativity, more people have voted for a two tier competition than have voted against it.  Granted a small sample but the suggestion is obviously favored by quite a few followers on this board.  I would only be in favor if the prize was re-entry to the championship at the latter stages
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 11:04:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Absolutely. But as it stands, it seems that the players agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 12:22:26 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player," Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!

Sure what would he know about it.

So he goes into a last 12 or last 8. So lets say 16 in top tier, 16 in bottom. How do we go about this craic where the winner of bottom tier all of a sudden landing into the last 12 of the top tier. This means the bottom tier will have to be wrapped up before the top tier even attempts to take of properly.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 05:47:54 AM
Quote from: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
I don't know if you understand how money works
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 09:59:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

Ok you have me totally lost. Why would English and French teams be in a competition for teams from Ireland, Scotland Wales and Italy. Does this make the English Premiership or French Super 12 also B competitions. Where does it stop. Are you suggesting in Soccer the  Premiership or La Liga are B competitions because they don't have all the top sides from Europe.

If you're looking at it like that then we already have B championships. The Connacht or Ulster Championship doesn't involve Kerry or Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 15, 2017, 01:25:44 PM
Play the provincials and Sam in the winter, league in the summer.  Everyone enters Sam; provincials with local rivalries remain.  Everyone knows how long their summer season is, and more games between teams of similar levels in summer.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Four? What teams start out in the first week of February?

And think of the benefits to the club scene in those counties having the whole summer to play games. Please some of the people and all that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?

Do you think that's going to stop college lads going on J1s? Daft buck.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2017, 04:41:10 PM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on July 16, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 16, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 15, 2017, 04:41:10 PM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.

No they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 12:22:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 16, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Fair funding and support for high standard coaching would be required for that. The qualifiers are pretty useless in terms of developing weaker counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 16, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
The super 8 will create a second tier so there is no need to worry about it. It's already here in another guise. There is now a first tier and the rest can just go whistle. Sky are happy, Dublin football will be happy, the coffers in headquarters in Croker will be happy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 18, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 18, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
Quote from: stevecw on July 18, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.

Carlow got that far by beating teams of their own standard. If teams get 4/5 games every summer it would lead to increased interest and improvements in standards. The "B" championship was poorly organised and treated as a joke by croke park. This insistence on calling it a potential "B" championship doesn't help. If a new trophy was commissioned and called Kevin Heffernan cup for example, finals played in croke park together with All Ireland semi final and earlier rounds televised and marketed I think it would be a success
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 12:52:20 AM
Sadly that just won't happen. It'll end up like the hurling Christy Ring...1st year out it was live on before an AI semi final...then it fell away and ended up 1 year played on a saturday night in tullamore, with 3 mins highlights on Sunday game.
Different levels are needed in hurling, as the gaps in standard all along the way are massive. So that is necessary but needs to be worked on.

In Football it's not the same at all, there's the top 3/4 after that then maybe another few that might compete with them on a good day. But we have proven that even one of the worst teams in Div 4 can be level with Monaghan with 5 mins to go, and we held Dublin to 4 points with 20 mins to go, until we lost our best player to a red card. This year we have proved that any team with a decent structure and intelligent gameplan plus obviously a good committed group of players can compete with even the best.
They are already planning to give it a go again next year, hoping to avoid Dublin in the draw and looking at potential Leinster final.

A B championship in any name will always be a lesser tournament and players won't commit, fans won't go. Nobody will care, no matter what it's called. I'd rather have an occasion like we had on Saturday ahead of winning any made up stupid Kevin Heffernan Cup by beating Leitrim or someone in the final in front of about 100 people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Carlow manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 03:00:01 AM
Quote from: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.

In what way? I'd try to explain all that he has done to improve Carlow, but trying to get yourself to try and talk sense is probably hard to do when you can't even spell Carlow at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
I think Turlough O Brien is very impressive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on July 19, 2017, 10:02:00 AM
Quote from: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Carew is surely a bluff machine. At least O'Brien has given Carlow supporters something to remember, Carew gave us national humiliation and stagnation otherwise. And self-serving guff in the Champion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....

Sure that's bollox. If you're taking the quarter finals as proof that we need tiered championships, Tier one would basically be the 4 semi finalists. I made this point months ago when this was raised. If we are trying to avoid heavy beatings, then the only solution is to separate the top 3 or 4 teams in Tier one, and you could have 5 or 6 tiers by the time you finished.

A tiered championship is mostly championed by media as far as I can see, and it's to avoid covering Carlow and the likes as they have the temerity to take a weekend in the summer away from the big guns facing each other. The problem, the real problem, is that the big guns are separating from the pack, in a very small and exclusive bunch, and no amount of restructuring fixtures will change that.

The Super 8s will go some way towards giving the media what they want, as you will theoretically have the top 8 playing each other in 12 matches. However, if the formline from last weekend held, and you had 2 or 3 blowouts in each group, and a dead rubber or two, you'll see support for that fading away as well.

Helping, and enabling, all counties to make the most of their resources, without quite deliberately making it harder for them to improve by disproportionate financial support to other counties, is the best way of improving standards, and competitiveness. Making monsters, and then wondering why they are eating everyone, is daft.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Beautifully put AZ.

Was Fitzsimons thinking this after the Mayo v Roscommon draw but decided to hold on to get a full hand of hammerings.

If he's thinking it for a year and a half why didn't he say it when Tipp reached the SF last year.

More of the same from a different mouth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 10, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Two 16 team championships. Straight knock out. No back door.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (senior) play off. Bottom 4 drop to the second tier the next year.
4 Semi-finalists in the second tier move up to Senior the following year.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (2nd tier) play off for a 3rd tier trophy if there is a need to ensure everyone gets a minimum of 2 games.

No seeding, no links to the league. Win 2 games and you play with the big boys the following year. Lose 2 and you go back down.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 10, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
No Provincials?
No point to second tier Semis and Final
How do you decide top 16?
What's in it for Leitrim?
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx.
Home and away or Neutral venues?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 11, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 10, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
No Provincials? Correct, they are part of the current imbalance.
No point to second tier Semis and Final. When you have played and won two why not go on try to win 2 more to get some silverware, even if it is only an intermediate championship?
How do you decide top 16? League for the first initial line in the san. Then purely previous championship performance.
What's in it for Leitrim? About as much as they get now. There is a chance that once every 60 years they might make an all-Ireland intermediate final.
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx. More time for club football.
Home and away or Neutral venues? Neutral after the first round.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 11, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 11, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.

Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 12, 2017, 11:37:07 PM
So why aren't all clubs playing in just a single County Championship?
Why can't Ballinameen players pit themselves against St.Brigids??
Can you imagine the poor Donegal or Leitrim hurlers pitting themselves against Galway, Cork or Waterford?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on August 13, 2017, 12:17:18 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

True! and the only way out is to win it!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 AM
Senior Inter and Junior All Irelands.
Provincials open to all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.

London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 13, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

Don't get the point of the second one. It just makes it easier for division 1 teams to get to a semi final. That's not what's needed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 11:47:10 AM
Division 1 teams usually make up the Semi Finalists anyway.
Tipp were the exception last year but they did beat 2 "big" teams to get there - Cork and the Connacht Champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on August 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/ (http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/)

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/)

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.

London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

In addition, it's the players who don't want to be second tier. Nobody is surprised that (especially blow-in) managers want to compete in a competition in which they have a chance of success and consequently a better prospect of keeping their jobs appointments and expenses.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Do the fans want a continuation of the status quo?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
The players want to compete at club level and they have tiered leagues and Championships. They can do the same at county level and get used to it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
No. The reason that hurling counties are tiered is that so few counties entered the All Ireland Senior Championship before the tiering was introduced. Antrim in Ulster and Galway in Connacht were the only representatives of their provinces. In Leinster, Louth & Longford never took part and Westmeath and Carlow were occasionally there. That gave you 16 counties that were delighted to get an alternative  competition.
In football , only Kilkenny have been absentees. My point was that change will only come if the counties affected at the bottom level vote for it and at the moment it doesn't appear that they will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 11:13:06 PM
Counties in the bottom levels will not vote for tiers because it would add to the pressure to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 14, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'm curious to know if there were calls for a tiered championship in the 50s and 60s. We're Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh et al at a similar standard of all the teams?  Was every game close?  Or what about when Kerry hammered Clare in Miltown Malbay? Was everyone clamouring for a tiered championship then? Is it just to make weak counties to feel good about themselves that this has come about, or the fact all these hidings are televised?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 14, 2017, 11:09:33 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.
Well put. The has v the has nots. Just look at one of the recent comments. Just bring it in and those that doesn't want it can "get used to it"  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 17, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 17, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way When Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)

And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Dublin have not had to play a single competive game of football to reach this AISF, by the way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on August 17, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 17, 2017, 04:28:20 PM
Quote from: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
How do you know who the "NOTS" are? How many is most? 51% of them?

If Sligo won Connacht by beating Galway and Mayo, do most of the NOTS think that to be easier or harder than Dublin beating Carlow, Wicklow and Wexfod?

Most importantly, what do the minority of NOTS think?


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 17, 2017, 10:34:26 PM
Quote from: five points on August 17, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
It was 2001 when Connacht had all four league semi finalists. The Championship had Mayo edging us out in Castlebar by a point courtesy of Tom Nallen and his 26 steps goal, Galway were then turfed out by Ros in Tuam before the Rossies beat Mayo in the final with a last gasp goal. That general era from the late 90's through to 2003/4 was a great one for Connacht in the sense of having four quite competitive, if not perhaps very consistent, teams and all operating at the higher echelons, ourselves and Ros were in D1 for most of that time, Mayo had their near misses for the big one and won their only national title since 1970 in that time, and Galway of course carried home Sam twice and but for Savage being selfish late on v Kerry in 2000 might have had a third title too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 18, 2017, 12:37:35 PM
Good time indeed owenmoresider.  However, with the exception of Galway, no Connacht team has won an all-ireland since 1951 which is 66 years.
Maybe we should allow mayo into the second tier also.....

Interesting to see that there are more votes in favour than against.  I stress again that the winners and runners-up would re-enter the championship under my suggestion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 01:18:09 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Such as?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 01:34:01 PM
3 Tiered All Irelands senior Junior and Inter with promotion and relegation.
Keep the Provincials with all Countues taking part with some perks for the winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 02:42:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Upsets in May/June don't count
The Qualifiers restore the natural order- look at Longford and Carlow
An upset in July/August  would be something
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:40:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

QuoteThere have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:41:12 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:40:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn't even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It's the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

QuoteThere have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams

Wow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
Great argument.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 03:53:59 PM
On Sunday, one of Horan's predecessors Sean Kelly aired his desire to address the huge imbalance within the provinces in the wake of final cakewalks for Kerry and Dublin against Cork and Laois respectively.
"Cause for serious worry about the hammerings too many @officialgaa football teams are getting at all inter-county championship levels," Kelly tweeted.
"Grading according to ability, with more than one tier essential.
"Otherwise there will be serious fall off in participation and attendances. Urgent!"
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 04:26:43 PM
Quote from: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?

I wont eliminate all one sided games, you will always get them occasionally no matter what.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on June 25, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Top tier of 6.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 05:01:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties

I'm not sure Ross fan, but if people tierred championships to avoid teams getting hammered, it's not going to work.

I can understand the argument that the provincials are unfair, but that's a different argument to the one about setting up tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 25, 2018, 05:02:02 PM
Quote from: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.

How do you improve Leitrim or Fermanagh? Honest question. Coaches? Transfer players? Money?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 05:09:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
I don't think the hurling counties are the issue. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford don't really care
Galway and Cork are dual and have always had ups and downs
Tipp know thy have work to do

The system doesn't work for Laois and Clare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on September 19, 2018, 12:45:25 PM
http://www.the42.ie/all-ireland-football-two-tier-championship-john-horan-4242334-Sep2018/

Looks like this idea might be making a comeback.  If they don't change the rules to increase the enjoyment factor for players and spectators it won't make a difference as people won't go to watch the crap that football has become especially if it's for a second tier competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 12:58:45 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/Páidi  O Sé or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on September 19, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 12:58:45 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/Páidi  O Sé or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.

Tiering works for Camogie and ladies football as the finals are all played on the same showcase day.

I don't think that may be workable for hurling or Football AI finals, but I do think a second tier final could be before an AI semi-final.

Those that removed the CR and Nicy Rackard finals from the AI semi-final spots did hurling in weaker counties a huge disservice and should be ashamed of themselves. Hurling men my arse.

If the same was allowed to happen in a tiered football championship then Horan and Co need their holes booted the length and breadth of the country.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: snoopdog on September 19, 2018, 02:59:44 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
Nobody ever attended hurling games played by the Louths,  Longfords or Cavans of this world.
I recall a Ros V London Hurling Championship game which took place after we played Cork in football back in 2003.
69 spectators stayed back to watch it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on September 19, 2018, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: snoopdog on September 19, 2018, 02:59:44 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
2013 Monaghan were in Div 3 and this summer they managed to reached the last 4 and were inches away from reaching the AI final. Would they have made that type of progress if they played in a 2nd tier comp? i highly doubt it.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:19:44 PM
They won Ulster in 2013 didn't they so they'd have been in Tier 1 anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on September 19, 2018, 03:25:02 PM
How does the second tier resolve the shite that is the Leinster Championship?

The second-tier will just do away with mismatches in the qualifiers which aren't televised.  It doesn't do away with the televised mismatches in Leinster. 

Solution.  No Second Tier - stop televising so many games in the Leinster Championship.  And I'm not really joking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Football is a total mess. It needs fundamental reform with money the focus.
A second tier may or may not work. It depends on whether or not the GAA is arsed. I think the Feng shui in Croke Park is dreadful.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on September 19, 2018, 04:08:44 PM
In the last 9 years teams that played Division 4 have played 182 championship games.

They have won just 2 games against Division 1 opposition and 6 games against Division 2 opposition.

A second tier championship won't magically solve the problems of these lowest tier counties, but it could at least lead to a situation where they get an increased number of competitive games.

This year the margins in the 16 games that Division 4 teams lost were (in points) 27, 23, 18, 18, 14, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7, 5

10 out of these 16 games were home games for the Division 4 teams - the rule about Division 3 and Division 4 teams getting home advantage in the qualifiers, didn't seem to have much of an affect in helping with the scoreline the margins in these 10 games were 27, 23, 18, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10, 5

Maybe teams and players in Division 4 are grand and content with the current situation but the current situation seems a long way from ideal to my mind.





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
What's your alternative?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on September 19, 2018, 08:43:07 PM
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup doing again?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 10:33:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on September 19, 2018, 10:53:43 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Maybe you could have county amalgamations or franchises?

Galway and Mayo could merge to become "Galwayo".
Cork and Kerry could merge to become become "Cerry", or maybe "Kork", or maybe even "Corkerry".
Tyrone and Derry would merge to become "Tyrone". If the Derry people objected they could merge with London instead.

Then knock a load of drive through counties together to form the BMW Region. Would be a handy sponsorship tie in there and all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on September 19, 2018, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 10:33:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.

In a forum filled with weak attempts at trolling (that the posters appear to think are brilliantly constructed rouses) this has to be one of the more embarassing efforts.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 20, 2018, 08:30:12 AM
Trolling? Me? You have over 15,000 posts. This forum is your life
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 29, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/possibility-of-success-needs-to-be-part-of-the-intercounty-contract-1.3644895?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyHarp on October 03, 2018, 09:07:53 AM
Quote from: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 08:52:09 AM
Run off the league. 1st plays 32nd, 2nd plays 31st and so on.
If you lose you go into a secondary competition. If you win you continue in AI championship.
Once you lose for 2nd time you are out of either competition. Knock out all the way.

Every county gets at least two competitive games
More emphasis on league, especially later games.
Does away with meaningless inter provincial championships
There will be the odd scalp which will still give that bit of romance to the thing.

(apologies if this has already been suggested. Haven't read any previous posts)

Can't wait for Dublin v London in round 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 09:26:49 AM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 09:26:49 AM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)

This might have some support, I would modify by having top 8 automatically into tier 1 and bottom 8 into tier 2, the round 1 games would then be essentially div 2 v div 3 which should provide some close games...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 02:07:14 PM
All the Div 2 and Div3 teams would be playing each other in Rd1 anyway given their league positions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 05:46:54 PM
Correct you just avoid the div 4 v div 1 which would not be entertaining at all
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 03, 2018, 06:22:28 PM
Limerick Manager in favour of 2nd Tier

Quote"I know there are people who don't agree with a two-tier championship but football is now the only sport under the Gaelic Games banner which doesn't have a tiered system. There are tiers in hurling, camogie, and ladies football. It's time football went that way too," said Lee.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/limerick-boss-lee-supports-second-tier-championship-871449.html

Benji Whelan the new Waterford manager also said it was worth looking at.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/new-deise-boss-whelan-open-to-secondary-competition-872104.html

Ciaran Deely the London manager has spoken out in favour of it before.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 04, 2018, 04:17:04 PM
May be a few dead rubber games in round 1 but no doubt an odd shock also. IMO the way forward ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 18, 2018, 04:06:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

QuoteWicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 18, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2018, 04:06:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

QuoteWicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
It's bad enough doing that as it is, but in a Tier 2 competition too? What would they call it like, the "Not-so-super 8's"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 06:43:18 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 18, 2018, 04:06:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

QuoteWicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.

This idea or some variation has to come in soon. Great idea from wicklow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 18, 2018, 07:16:08 PM
Playing a Tier 2 Final with the main Final will mean the participants getting about 2,000 tickets each!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 18, 2018, 08:01:03 PM
Tier 2 final the night before the final, with tickets to the final for both panels.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it's no surprise to see that hasn't changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 09:43:40 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it's no surprise to see that hasn't changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,

Except for all the bits where it's completely different.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 18, 2018, 09:44:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it's no surprise to see that hasn't changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,

(https://duetogsaij514.cloudfront.net/images/products/11/LN_009321_BP_11.jpg)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
I'm cool with it but if I'm totally honest with myself as a mayo supporter I wouldn't be as keen if we were to drop outside the top tier , so my conclusion is it's up to the counties that would be effected . The top eight counties should have no say
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
Two headlines beside each other in yesterday's Indo

Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-lead-drive-for-tier-2-football-championship-37432662.html

Wicklow champs could face two games in 24 hours
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-champs-could-face-two-games-in-24-hours-37432660.html

I smell deflection.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on October 19, 2018, 11:13:51 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 11:34:35 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2018, 11:13:51 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year

HQ are really going to bite for that money-spinning AISF everyone's been waiting for, Kerry vs. Louth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Quote from: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it's no surprise to see that hasn't changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 12:49:22 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2018, 11:13:51 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Last 12 would be the best place for the winners and a place in the Tier 1 the following year no matter where they finish in the NFL. .
I would also suggest the 2 promoted teams from D3 play in the main competition.
Although seeing he/she who knows everything is against it -Congress will never dare to vote for a Tier 2 Championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 19, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
 Brilliant suggestion from Wicklow for a well thought out structured second tier All Ireland Championship.One caveat however.It would be important that the poor presentation of a previous attempt at introducing a secondary competition- ie the Tommy Murphy Cup- should not be repeated.This new proposed competition should be played along side the latter  stages of the Sam Maguire  Cup competition and marketed accordingly.All of the 32 counties should be treated equally in terms of opportunity in playing in a meaningful competition with a realistic chance of silverware attained on the biggest stage and biggest occasion of all.The reason why the current league system is so good and so competitive is that all counties are playing at their own level.All Division Three and Division Four league teams deserve the same fair treatment at championship level.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Quote from: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it's no surprise to see that hasn't changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew

Similar to how most of Wicklow haven't darkened the doors at Aughrim, then.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 19, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Not many from Fermanagh, Clare, Sligo or Longford wouldn't get to see it in the flesh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 19, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!

The dogs on the street know that it wouldn't work out like that, and instead they'd be playing it in Carrick on Shannon or Mullingar on a Saturday afternoon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 05:09:34 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Elphin still a noted common sense location ;D
Other possibility depending on scheduling -triple header Minor, U20 and the Tier 2 Finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on October 19, 2018, 06:42:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 19, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 19, 2018, 06:42:11 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.

U17 final at 12.00, Tier 2 final at 1.45 and senior final at 3.45. Great day out and great viewing on tv also. Win win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 07:23:25 PM
That's ye tould.
Sure no one will go against the Oracle.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads won't turn up for a minor AI final that's paid for on their ticket, there's no chance f them coming up a day early or if they're already up wasting more of their weekend on football than they're already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isn't going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 08:31:04 PM
Well I for one if I was up for all Ireland weekend would definitely attend a B final minor final double header.

You wouldn't so that sums up the gulf in our love of the game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads won't turn up for a minor AI final that's paid for on their ticket, there's no chance f them coming up a day early or if they're already up wasting more of their weekend on football than they're already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isn't going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.

Yup, very true.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tintin25 on October 21, 2018, 08:23:29 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these 'middle of the road' counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  It's one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that I've already named...I'd be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a 'B' competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
Quote from: tintin25 on October 21, 2018, 08:23:29 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these 'middle of the road' counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  It's one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that I've already named...I'd be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a 'B' competition.

I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:25:51 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM

This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

For some reason you deleted this part of my post. Why did you do that?

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)

We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:46:34 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

Or instead of killing Gaelic football in all these counties, why don't we look at the recent past when the football championship was competitive and what changed that.
The Leinster championship is a great example. In 2004 Westmeath won it, in 2003 Laois won it. In the decade before it was won by Kildare, Meath, Offaly and yes Dublin. It was open, competitive and exciting. Then Dublin had millions of euro pumped into them and the Leinster championship was destroyed, it's now dead.
The same thing is happening at All Ireland level. Dublin are murdering the competition and the only counties who can come anywhere close are those with money.
Why should all the 'weaker' counties be punished because of the financial doping of others? There's those who say something similar to 'why drag the best down, it's up to the others to catch up'. Well let me give you an analogy that explains this.
I'm going to use cycling. Lance Armstrong was at the top of that sport, 7 Tour De France titles. He was doped to the eyeballs, in order to try to catch him, others doped themselves to the gills also. That is where we're at in Gaelic football. Dublin are Lance Armstrong and there's a few counties trying to keep up but they don't have access to the best drugs.
In cycling they attempted to clean it up. The speed cyclists were going up mountains slowed, the standard got worse but it was a fair competition. That's what we have to do in Gaelic football. Try to rid us of the dopers and let us have a fair competition once more.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?

You forgot to answer these questions for some reason.

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

I've shortened the quote to make it easier for you:

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 21, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

Why are you trying your hardest to set up the strawman of winning an AI being the gauge of success in the championship?

Also giving the super-province team of Dublin exists you could easily replace Leitrim with Kerry or Mayo and it would apply just as well. Which ironically makes the case for fixing the finances first before any childish, attention deficit induced attempts at format change are attempted.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:13:19 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

The provincials have been seriously devalued since 2001.  If there was a tiered system the provincials would become utterly meaningless. Playing them would become a token gesture.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2018, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.


The real reason for keeping the provincial championship is because once you get rid of them, then the need for the provincial councils pretty much disappears.
Far too many GAA committee men would be out of a job if the provincial councils were done away with.
Instead the provincial councils will remain until the sun burns out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:27:46 PM
There's more to a provincial council than the senior county c'ship. It's the cash cow but it's only 5 or 6 matches a year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 22, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?

Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 06:18:31 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 22, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have

Your solution is to boot counties into the losers league and magically those left will make the top tier competitive? Absolute nonsense.

Here's a snippet of the plan that will save Gaelic Games:

1. Split Dublin into 4
2. Employ Strategic Development officers for all counties
3. Draw up development plans needed to improve Gaelic football and hurling in all counties
4. Employ full time coaches and other development officers to implement the plan for each county
5. Finance each county with the resources needed to implement these plans
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
No need to be embarrassed, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
The Inter County one, which has been done away with on Ulster was for players from non-senior clubs to get a chance to play at a higher level. It is not the best team from that County competing at a suitable level.
At club level teams are graded to give them a chance to play teams at a similar level. I would say there were not too many teams which lifted Intermediate or Junior championship s yesterday who thought they were competing in a losers league. They worked hard and saw it as a reward for their hard work and a chance to step up and test themselves at the next level.

You got to walk before you can run. If a County can't walk they should be leaving to do that first.

I wouldn't expect Tyrone to compete for the Liam McCarthy nor Tattyreagh to compete for the Andy Merrigan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 06:38:22 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on October 23, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
if keeping the Provincial championships is so important, do away with the likes of McKenna cup, start the leagues earlier and then have the Provincial championships as a stand alone competition. Run it off over a few weeks, ie no more of the no overlapping games, no reason why for example, in ulster the 4 quarter finals cant be played over one weekend, week break then semis week break then final. all run off in a few condensed weeks then the Stand alone All Irelands can start.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 08:23:35 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 23, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.

Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people weren't even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:20:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 06:38:22 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).

Nothing was said about All Ireland's. Carlow getting to a Leinster semi final this year meant something to them. Any match in the losers league would be meaningless.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:22:20 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.

I've already blasted the losers league out of the water. It would have disastrous results for the counties thrown into it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 23, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people weren't even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.

That's all the Donegal's etc have in hurling, why do you want football to become a minority sport in many counties? That's what will happen. Hurling needs more teams to become competitive, there's people actually advocating that we make more counties uncompetitive in football. There'd be no returning from that.

Let me repeat what works and what will actually improve the state of Gaelic Football. Antrim, Laois, Westmeath and Dublin were all around the same level in hurling in the early 2000's. Antrim, Laois and Westmeath continued on as normal. Entering the provincial championships, hopping around various league formats and championship formats including these magical tiered championships. They have never been able to reach the top tier, in fact, it could be said that they've gone backwards, especially Antrim and Laois.
The other county I mentioned was Dublin. They lost to Laois by 4 goals in 2005, they lost to Westmeath in 2006, they were generally getting whippings of teams like Offaly around this time, they were getting a couple of hundred people attending their matches. They were minnows in the same way that many counties in football are now.
As has been well documented by now, Bertie and co granted Dublin GAA millions and their standards completely changed. It obviously started with underage improvements and success and then it grew into senior success. They are now a top tier team. They are competitive. Investing in their structures has transformed them.
Financing counties is the only route that we can take. It's the only hope of making them competitive. It works. The template is there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 24, 2018, 03:51:45 PM

QuoteEmlyn Mulligan hoping for new Championship format
Saturday 20 October 2018

By Cian O'Connell

Leitrim footballer Emlyn Mulligan is hopeful a Second Tier Championship will be introduced soon.

Even though Leitrim featured in four matches this summer Mulligan believes a new format would aid developing counties significantly.

"Yeah, it would definitely appeal to me," Mulligan says. "We're sitting idle a long time now since June.

"I did a few media gigs at the Super 8s and it was great watching on at the games but at the same time, regardless of the level I'd love to be out there playing again in some sort of a competition. Because we're not improving. In the last three years we've drawn Roscommon in the draw.

"Them lads were playing in the Super 8s regardless of whether they were getting hammered or not they're still getting games against massive teams. Whereas we can see the progression we got even by beating Louth, we put it up to Monaghan for periods of the game. If you had another two or three games in a different competition it's going to bring you on naturally.

"There's players there from bigger counties, the likes of Dublin, that have probably played more Championship games in a year than even myself has played throughout my career. When you're looking back on that basis, games are the only way you're going to improve. The more games the better is the way I look at it."

Does Mulligan feel that a different format is imminent? "You'd hope it is," Mulligan responds. "In fairness, you say it's a big chance and it is surely.

"The Super 8s came around and you're looking at them enforcing these new rules. It doesn't take them that long to make some changes. This is one of the biggest problems at the minute - players sitting idle since the start of June and watching on as other counties are playing in different competitions and now the Super 8s are there. I just believe there should be another system, whether they change the structure of the Championship I don't know.

"Be it that there's three groups of eight or whatever it maybe, and they're ran alongside each other and there's a final in Croke Park. That's what lads dream of. I've never played in Croke Park, but that's what you aspire to do to get there.

"Regardless of what way you get there at this stage, I just want to be up there and you want to be there in the middle of August still playing county football."

Mulligan doesn't think that a lot of players and other counties are against trialling a fresh approach. "I know you have a man across there from Carlow (Paul Broderick), they've a totally different opinion on it and you can understand," Mulligan accepts.

"I think the likes of their wins last year or even ours against Louth, I just personally think they're covering the cracks to be honest. If you go through other counties and how many hammerings they've got throughout their time. It's covering over cracks. "You've one great success story and you've 10 behind it and it's just covering up for the GAA. It's easy for Turlough O'Brien or even our own managers coming out and saying, 'It's great.' But you have to be realistic.

"In the Connacht championship I've only one victory ever in my 11 years playing if you take London and New York out of it. That's against Sligo in 2011. You're playing that long you'd have hoped you would have had a bit more playing teams at your own level.

"But we're in Connacht with three teams that are competing in Division 1, it's very hard for us to up our game three divisions come Championship day. "You'll be talking about it for a long time but you just hope someone maybe can just say, 'Right this has to be done' and people get in behind it to get good support from county managers more so than anyone else."

A decade on the inter-county beat with Leitrim Mulligan still thoroughly enjoys the game. "I love it," Mulligan admits. "I do love it. I suppose I've been lucky enough to get gigs like this to come up to. I've got a lot out of the game. I've always played for Leitrim trying to make them a better team and trying to push them on for younger lads that want to play for Leitrim. I always think people look down on us.

"My biggest pet hate is reading articles where they compare Dublin to Leitrim and it's always Leitrim. That really annoys me. I'm like, why not compare it to Wicklow? Why not compare it to Carlow? We're actually fine in Leitrim. We've money, we're happy out, we're well looked after, we don't want for anything, we know no better. But it's always 'poor Leitrim.'

"I always give off the perception that we need to change this. It's a mentality outside of Leitrim where young lads are going to college up in UCD or DCU and I can guarantee to go to a Sigerson trial and are asked where they're from. They say Leitrim and they won't look at you as eagerly as a lad that's playing with St Vincent's in Dublin.

"But it's up to us to change that. You see the perspective now of Carlow, it's changed completely. That's what we're trying to aim for and strive for. "But again, we just need to have our best players there and unfortunately year in year out, it's a struggle to get them all to commit.

"But hopefully Terry (Hyland) will be the man in the middle that can get them all to pull together for the year ahead."

The arrival of former Cavan manager Terry Hyland is a boost according to Mulligan. "I've been speaking to him a few times, he seems to have gotten a decent backroom team into place," Mulligan states.

"Jason Reilly is in as coach by all accounts, chatting to Cavan people he seems to be very good and he was a great footballer himself.

"There's a few other strong candidates in there that'll give him a boost. Chatting to a few of the lads, a lot of them are excited about going back. The biggest thing for us is keeping 99% of players we had last year and bring in a couple extra that maybe walked away last year or the year before.

"There's confidence around the county. As I said, Division Four is our target and hopefully Terry will bring in that experience he's had. He brought Cavan from, I think, Division Three to Division One so he knows the ins and outs of how it's done. Looking forward to getting at it again. Hard to believe it's come back around already at this stage of the year.

"I'm sure Terry will be getting us to put the head down over the next couple of weeks and trying to put a system in place to get us ready for the National League at the end of January."

http://www.gaa.ie/search/crawl/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

QuoteInterestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote
Also the April club month looks like a total failure
As was ever going to be the case.
Quote
leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
It's clubs and their delegates who make the decisions in each county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 25, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: five points on October 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote

Lol, I'm sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:31:24 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

QuoteInterestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.

Very interesting indeed, I wonder what the % would have been even 2 years ago?? Alot less I'd say


Quote from: five points on October 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Listen up Leitrim and Wicklow etc etc etc etc , get the fingers out and train a bit harder ffs
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-championship-set-for-2020-introduction-37460412.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 26, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, I'm sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 12:29:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 26, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, I'm sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps.

Of course a manager is gonna come out as being against it and beat his chest after a couple of championship wins and it's fresh in the memory. It's a message to his players that they can compete. In reality, history shows they can't and don't. In a 2nd tier, who knows
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 26, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
And only knock out games!!
I'd say 10 would have folded at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 26, 2018, 01:23:51 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on October 26, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is

Ah but they just need to get off their arses and work harder. I can just see Ardmore taking on slaughtneil in Derry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 26, 2018, 01:50:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.

Wasn't that easy for them lets be fair.

Only 4 years ago they finished last in Div 4 and when you are that low you aren't expected to take any scalps.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 26, 2018, 04:33:43 PM
So it looks like a B Championship. I've always thought that the players from the lower tier's opinion is the most important so so be it.

I find it very strange that two of the worst teams in the country are looking forward to a championship where (presumably) they'll be up against teams from the top half of Division 3. But let's wait and see what's put forward.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
If they only took my proposal of Senior, Intermediate and Junior........
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed '60pc of football members now supporting a change', Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

"If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no," he told the Irish Independent. "But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

"No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

"It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 31, 2018, 03:46:22 PM
Pete McGrath


"Obviously I'd need to see the blueprint whenever it comes out. They have to be smart about this.

"We all know there'd be a stigma attached to teams who are able to play only in a second or third tier.

"If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

"Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn't win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic."

Having departed Fermanagh after expressions of dressing room unrest, McGrath knows that keeping the players happy is key to any success:

"There would still be players who, whenever their county drops out of the main competition, would say 'I'm not committing to anything else, I've more to do with my time'.

"I don't know what the reaction would be, but we all know that mind-set is there. I was surprised to read that figure of 60 per cent [in favour of a change] because prior to that any players asked had said 'no'.

"Even those from smaller counties were adamant that they don't want to play in anything that's regarded as 'second tier' or however it's described.

"That also means 40 per cent weren't keen on change, and you have to look at that too."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2018, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 31, 2018, 03:46:22 PM
Pete McGrath




"If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

"Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn't win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic."



They already had that Pete  - Tommy Murphy Cup ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 31, 2018, 10:37:51 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed '60pc of football members now supporting a change', Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

"If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no," he told the Irish Independent. "But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

"No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

"It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway."

With respect I think Broderick is probably  placing a bit too much emphasis on Carlow's results in 2018 in terms of the wins over Louth and Kildare.
It's worth remembering that Louth played 10 games between league and championship and won 1 - against London; while Kildare played 15 and won 4 - Derry, Longford, Mayo and Fermanagh)
So while they had two wins against top 16 opposition, both of those teams had poor (if not miserable) seasons, with a combined record of played 25 won 5.
These stats are even a bit deceptive in that the loss to Carlow was a nadir for Kildare and they won their 4 games after this and Louth won their 1 game after this, so the record of the two teams Carlow beat was played 14 lost 14 for the year when Carlow played them.

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.

Teams Carlow have beaten in the championship from 2009 onwards (2008 was the last year of the Tommy Murphy Cup)
2018   Louth - relegated from Division 2
2018   Kildare - relegated from Division 1
2017   Wexford - promoted from Division 4
2017   London - bottom of Division 4
2017   Leitrim - 5th in Division 4
2016   Wicklow - 5th in Division 4
2014   Waterford - 5th in Division 4
2011   Louth - promoted from Division 3

Teams Carlow have lost to in the championship from 2009 onwards
2018   Laois
2018   Tyrone
2017   Dublin
2017   Monaghan
2016   Louth
2016   Cavan
2015   Laois
2015   Longford
2014   Meath
2014   Clare
2013   Westmeath
2013   Laois
2012   Meath
2012   Laois
2011   Wexford
2011   Antrim
2010   Wicklow
2010   Derry
2009   Louth
2009   Donegal





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 31, 2018, 10:37:51 PM

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.
Lost convincingly in the end but you shouldn't forget what happened during those games which was competitive displays and a few Div 2 teams haven't managed to do that against those teams.

Dublin 0-10 Carlow 0-6 after 50mins then Brendan Murphy was sent off
Carlow 1-6 Monaghan 0-10 after 65 mins then a goal from Fintan Kelly



The point Broderick was making is he and his team mates would prefer to test themselves against top sides where the interest and enthusiasm from the public is high than playing in a 2nd tier championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2019, 11:09:17 AM
This won't be going to 2019 Congress I believe.
CC seeking consensus on whether it should be for all D3/4 Counties or only those that lose in Round 1 or of Qualifiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 06, 2019, 10:53:15 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/move-towards-two-speed-championship-picks-up-pace-1.3866238

Move towards two-speed championship picks up pace
Two options for proposed competition circulated to Division Three and Four counties
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:00

Seán Moran

 

Moves towards a Tier 2 football championship quickened this week with a meeting in Croke Park, attended by the counties likely to be involved in such a departure – those from Divisions Three and Four. Two options for the proposed competition have been circulated to the counties with a view to bringing the more popular one to a special congress next autumn.
Division Three is likely to be defined as that constituted by the end of the league and this year that would mean Cork and Tipperary, the counties relegated from Division Two, and not Westmeath and Laois, who travelled in the other direction.
The choice is between a competition that begins as soon as counties are defeated in the provincial championships – unless they qualify for the final in which case they stay involved in the Sam Maguire – and one that allows counties to contest one or two rounds of the All-Ireland qualifiers.
Those at Monday's meeting appeared more favourably disposed towards the former although support for the latter was more pronounced amongst the player representatives, who attended on behalf of the counties along with their Central Council delegates.
Developments are marking quite a turnaround from just three years ago when Croke Park had to pull a motion on a proposed 'B' All-Ireland, restricted to Division Four counties, at the very start of the 2016 annual congress in Carlow. Part of the influence on that decision was the implacable opposition of the counties concerned and also the Gaelic Players Association.
By last November, the GPA signalled a change of mind on foot of a survey, indicating that 60 per cent of footballers now support the concept of a Tier 2 championship.
Amongst the findings were that 90 per cent of hurlers were happy that they had sufficient matches against teams of equal standard – unsurprisingly, as there are now five different championship tiers in the game – whereas the comparable figure for footballers was 53 per cent.

Counties have also begun to see the merit in the idea. Wicklow were early advocates of the competition and submitted detailed proposals last autumn, including the stipulation that counties entering the new championship would not contest the qualifiers.
There was irony in this because when the GAA previously attempted to introduce this type of streaming by directing all Division Four counties straight into the Tommy Murphy Cup and not allowing them to enter the qualifiers, it was a Wicklow motion that reversed the decision in 2008.
There was vindication when in 2009 Wicklow enjoyed its most successful season in the qualifiers, reaching the fourth round at which stage they lost to Kildare.

Two finals
The county's Central Council delegate Martin Coleman says that the unhappiness in the county wasn't based on objecting to the idea of a Tier 2 competition and also explains the current rationale.
"We weren't against the Tommy Murphy Cup, just the way it was scheduled and the complete lack of promotion. We were lucky enough to get to two finals and we had to play when there was only seagulls in Croke Park. The plans for this are better. This is giving every county in Division Three and Four a chance.
"The way I look at it is that if you get a fairly substantial beating in the province and then go into the qualifiers and get another beating, the attitude isn't going to be right going into another competition."
The question of profile frequently arises when Tier 2 championships are debated. As Coleman recounts, the Murphy Cup might have been played on the same bill as big matches in Croke Park but generally so early in the day that few apart from the counties involved were in attendance.
Securing dates for the new competition will be a challenge, as the GAA currently operates a very condensed calendar of matches in order to clear the way for additional weekends for club activity.
The GAA view is however that it should be possible to utilise the spare fixture space generated by the reduction in qualifier matches and maybe even find a stand-alone Sunday for a semi-finals double bill at Croke Park.
Whether this would guarantee media coverage is moot. Sceptical players point to the relative obscurity of even the most advanced graded championships in hurling, the Ring and McDonagh Cups, as an example of how Tier 2 competitions can slip off the radar.
Another of the main objections to filtering Division Three and Four counties out of the qualifiers is that it would slam the door on some of the most romantic achievements in qualifiers-era football. Counties like Wexford and Tipperary reached All-Ireland semi-finals, having come from Division Three but such feats were rarities.
On average just one county per annum from outside of the league's top 16 has reached the last eight of the All-Ireland football championship since the quarter-finals were introduced in 2001.
Shane Mulligan played for Longford for 10 years before stepping down four seasons ago and last year enjoyed an historic provincial title with his club, Mullinalaghta.
Giantkilling displays
"I understand why players want that opportunity, one crack at it because on any given day, a result can go any way. That's a draw for players in a summer championship. There are pros and cons."
He believes though that a Tier 2 structure would benefit counties like his by providing a more competitive schedule and a more orderly pathway to improvement and holds that view despite having played in a number of Longford's great giantkilling displays in the qualifiers, days when Mayo and Derry were beaten and Kerry given a rattle.
"Yeah. I think there's definitely a debate to be had. I'm looking back having played 10 years and gone through it and personally, my best memories were of those competitive days – we had some great Division Three finals in Croke Park – and I know we had some huge upsets when we took big scalps on a given day but I think it's about progression because it was too topsy-turvy to get a big result and then go to a poor performance against a lesser team."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:42:42 PM
'I'm a huge supporter of a tier-two Championship'

Ciaran Deeley London Manager strongly in favour

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0505/1047700-im-a-huge-supporter-of-a-tier-two-championship/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
A third or fourth tier might make more sense. Unless the powers that be are just trying to get the dross away from the main event.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people don't know who's left until maybe AI semi final day.

That's what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. It's already happening with the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LilySavage on May 08, 2019, 11:38:51 PM
Works perfectly well at club level. If it's done right, it works. Give it a decent name like Intermediate and not B or a Tommy Cooper Cup. Play final at 2pm before the Senior All Ireland. Be relatively easy to make it an attractive competition. Promotion /Relegation aspect would add a lot like it does at club level and in other sports. Reason there is apathy is because many counties know in January there is very little achievable.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 08, 2019, 11:43:27 PM
Playing with Senior Final.... how many tickets will the competing Counties get? 1500 like the Minors?
If more who among the privileged will lose their tickets?
Agree with point about not calling it the Paddy whatever cup or  a B thing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 09, 2019, 09:28:28 AM
They'll still be playing Div 1 sides in Connacht.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 09, 2019, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
You think London have a realistic chance of winning a title consisting of Division 3 and Division 4 teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 09, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 09, 2019, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
You think London have a realistic chance of winning a title consisting of Division 3 and Division 4 teams?

Yes, they're certainly not favourites but it's a realistic goal for them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Real Talk on May 09, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved .... its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system .... its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 ... in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2019, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on May 09, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved .... its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system .... its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 ... in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????

Including Kilkenny but not teams that have played in the championship for the last few years?

London deserve their place in a football championship. NY not realistic unless there's a 100% guarantee they'll fulfil fixtures over here if they won their first game (don't see that as realistic). Better leave Kilkenny til DJ's youngsters get a bit older!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on May 09, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on May 09, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved .... its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system .... its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 ... in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????

There's no need for hurling and football championships to mirror each other is there? They haven't done so for years so see no reason why hurling can't retain the Munster hurling championship if that's thought to be the best format for the game.

Provincial councils can surely get a proportion of the overall take that would match or better what they get through provincial championships if crowds are good in the new format?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people don't know who's left until maybe AI semi final day.

That's what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. It's already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 09, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people don't know who's left until maybe AI semi final day.

That's what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. It's already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people don't know who's left until maybe AI semi final day.

That's what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. It's already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify

Fair point, I was actually thinking of promotion for the following year.
In reality, even if they did qualify for the A in the first year, it is unlikely (not impossible) that a Div 3 or Div 4 will qualify for semis in first year up, especially given the round robin aspects of qualifiers.

Look at how much interest it created in Leitrim this year, when they finally made a breakthrough, that has only got to be good for developing 10-12 year gaelic footballers.
This is truly a multi-step, multi multi year process.


.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 09, 2019, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people don't know who's left until maybe AI semi final day.

That's what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. It's already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify

Fair point, I was actually thinking of promotion for the following year.
In reality, even if they did qualify for the A in the first year, it is unlikely (not impossible) that a Div 3 or Div 4 will qualify for semis in first year up, especially given the round robin aspects of qualifiers.

Look at how much interest it created in Leitrim this year, when they finally made a breakthrough, that has only got to be good for developing 10-12 year gaelic footballers.
This is truly a multi-step, multi multi year process.


.
Imagine if they beat Roscommon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 09, 2019, 03:32:33 PM
Just Frack the bloody place >:(
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 09, 2019, 06:22:42 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.

London are Div 4 team that don't get close to promotion. Chances of winning a 2nd tier cup would be slim or none for them,  I'd say they were buzzing in training before the Galway game. I also think the chance of 2nd tier cup final played in Croke park will be slim.

It needs repeating but the tiered competition is already in place. Its called the NFL but how many people remembers or cherishes a Div 2,3 or 4 title? its time to make that competition more important tie it up to the championship or whatever is needed. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 10, 2019, 10:45:50 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on May 12, 2019, 10:31:17 AM
So ye want a 2 tier championship, in other words half the teams can go to hell,in todays Sunday indo a photo of some Dublin players got more column space than the combined reports on the tipp/ lim and clare/ waterford games, and Dublin are not playing today.
The tiers or tears exist already.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: DuffleKing on May 12, 2019, 01:44:20 PM

If you're basing your decision making on the best route forward for football on the sindo's editorial decisions you should give it up.

How The GAA market their games is important but it shouldn't be the driver for what is best for the intercounty game and the association.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 12, 2019, 01:55:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 10, 2019, 10:45:50 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."

The layers of disgust i get from reading that. The irony in the statements from the GAA President. He expects RTE to give attention to games the GAA are trying to get rid of. The GAA is in a very sad state.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 12, 2019, 02:34:57 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 12, 2019, 01:55:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 10, 2019, 10:45:50 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."

The layers of disgust i get from reading that. The irony in the statements from the GAA President. He expects RTE to give attention to games the GAA are trying to get rid of. The GAA is in a very sad state.
Zero leadership in the association for 5+ years
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2019, 05:46:29 AM
Fantastic coverage of the McDonagh and Ring Cups yesterday across MSM. That Laois/Offaly game was the game of the weekend, great to see RTE give it top Billing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 08:07:21 AM
The lower tiers would get skant coverage
No mention of last year's Christy  Ring winners being beaten by Roscommon
Henry wouldn't even know how to find Athleague on a map
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on May 13, 2019, 11:01:44 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: westbound on May 13, 2019, 11:01:44 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)
Yes indeed, forgot about those.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 11:21:52 AM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 13, 2019, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: westbound on May 13, 2019, 11:01:44 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)
Yes indeed, forgot about those.

The usual nonsense from Brolly. I was hoping RTE would have the sense to replace him by now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LilySavage on May 13, 2019, 12:13:31 PM
Jim McGuinness idea still the best Ive heard. Scrap preseason tournaments. Start league 2-3 weeks earlier. Teams from Div 1 and 2 qualify for senior All Ireland of 4 groups of 4. Play Provincial Championships before this as currently the case. (In unlikely event that a bolter from Div 3 or 4 win Province then they take 16th position from league and join Senior All Ireland.)
Call the 2nd tier tournament the All Ireland Intermediate Championship. Again 4 groups of 4. Play the final at 2pm before the senior. (You can name the Cup after whichever GAA icon you like )
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 13, 2019, 12:22:47 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2019, 05:46:29 AM
Fantastic coverage of the McDonagh and Ring Cups yesterday across MSM. That Laois/Offaly game was the game of the weekend, great to see RTE give it top Billing.

Out of sight, out of mind - a sign of things to come if a second tier is introduced in football.
I was amazed that The Sunday Game did not even give the results from the Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cup matches.


Having said that I agree with those who propose that the Provincial Championships be played at start of year replacing O'Byrne, McKenna, McGrath and FBD.
The Provincial Championships would be just that, i.e. confined to each Province.

The League, however best restructured, becomes the Championship with all teams having some possibility of reaching Playoffs which would be knock-out.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 13, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I think if they changed the name of the person the cup is named after every year it would make the 2nd tier competition that much more attractive, obviously it would need to be a significant GAA figure. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 13, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I think if they changed the name of the person the cup is named after every year it would make the 2nd tier competition that much more attractive, obviously it would need to be a significant GAA figure.
Larry Reilly
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on May 13, 2019, 01:22:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 11:21:52 AM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.

Brolly was talking about having (at least!) 3 tiers.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 01:26:08 PM
I'm talking about the real proposals which the Central Council and the Div3/4 Counties have been discussing.

Most Counties already have 3 tier Club Championships.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
Quote from: westbound on May 13, 2019, 01:22:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 11:21:52 AM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.

Brolly was talking about having (at least!) 3 tiers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/this-is-cruel-its-cruel-whats-happening-joe-brolly-calls-on-gaa-to-introduce-three-tiers-38105182.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 02:44:13 PM
ask the McDonagh, formerly Christy Ring counties what they think of the setup?
less and less coverage every year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 13, 2019, 02:50:20 PM
Why is so much emphasis being placed on the number of minutes of coverage on the Sunday game.
If there was an interest they would show it. Attendances would be a reflection of the interest.

Which is more important, realistic competition or a couple of minutes of talking Brollix.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on May 13, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 13, 2019, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 13, 2019, 02:50:20 PM
Why is so much emphasis being placed on the number of minutes of coverage on the Sunday game.
If there was an interest they would show it. Attendances would be a reflection of the interest.

Which is more important, realistic competition or a couple of minutes of talking Brollix.
Leo, I think the point is that in the current system, each team has a chance, no matter how small, of a bit of exposure should they cause an upset or even just get a bit of a run in the qualifiers.

Teams not on the telly now get on the telly and everyone in that county gets a little bit more excited.

The prediction is that unless your county makes the B final that this excitement won't occur and we all need a little excitement in our lives every now and again.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 03:53:07 PM
I was so looking forward to the highlights of Longford v Warwickshire......
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 13, 2019, 04:03:09 PM
Quote from: befair on May 13, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 04:08:29 PM
How many sacred cows will have to forego their AI Final tickets if you had the Tier 2 Final on with the Senior?
Or do ye suggest only giving the Tier 2 finalists the same 1500 or allocation the Minors get?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 04:19:41 PM
2 tiers me hole.

Roscommon were a div 1 team in 2018 (or promoted anyway), tanked by Dublin and Tyrone in Super 8. They are also Div 1 teams. Div 1 Kerry also tanked  Div 1 Kildare.

If Div 1 teams are tanking other Div 1 teams, then of course Div 1 teams will tank Div 3/4 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 13, 2019, 04:51:22 PM
We definitely need a special tier for London, New York and Modor (Armagh).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on May 13, 2019, 07:46:21 PM
The way you are talking benny we need a 2 tier division 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 08:05:48 PM
Quote from: giveballaghback on May 13, 2019, 07:46:21 PM
The way you are talking benny we need a 2 tier division 1.

That's what Brolly and Co will be saying, after they get their 2 tiers!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 09:30:34 PM
Has the GAA decision making process been changed?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provincials. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 10:10:07 PM
Quote from: five points on May 13, 2019, 04:03:09 PM
Quote from: befair on May 13, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.
They played the CR final the day of the McCarthy Cup semi final. The minors were relegated to the 1st gsme of 3.
Strong hurling counties soon got that changed back...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provisonals. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

Me too. But it's not going to happen.

The GAA want to gather all the big guns, and make them play each other again and again, in front of big crowds, and milk that tit dry. Then proclaim how great our games are. While 25 other counties are forgotten about, never to be seen on our TV screens.

The more the championship is fecked about with, the more sense the old provincial system makes sense.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:52:59 PM
the gaa get the big matches with the concurrent  league and championship with the league in the summer. if league went to 3 divisions you could have 8 12 12 or 10 10 12.

weaker teams 11 league and minimum 1 championship and stronger 7/9 league and minimum 1 championship but likely 3-6. they also get provincial matches.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 14, 2019, 12:00:51 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provisonals. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

Me too. But it’s not going to happen.

The GAA want to gather all the big guns, and make them play each other again and again, in front of big crowds, and milk that tit dry. Then proclaim how great our games are. While 25 other counties are forgotten about, never to be seen on our TV screens.

The more the championship is fecked about with, the more sense the old provincial system makes sense.

In a nutshell and a big push by the "elite" over the last year to make this happen now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 14, 2019, 12:05:51 AM
Is there something to be said for another mass a boycott by teams and fans? Maybe that'll make the head honchos sit up and take notice.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2019, 08:35:58 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-provincial-championships-reaching-the-end-of-the-line-1.3891140

Kevin McStay: Provincial championships reaching the end of the line

Many formerly intense rivalries fading away as results closely follow the formbook


about 2 hours ago


 
Kevin McStay


"Pleasant" was the word that sprang to mind at the Roscommon-Leitrim championship derby on Sunday. There was a lovely crowd and the day was nice. But the game itself was over as a contest early on and, despite Leitrim's excellent league showing, Roscommon had too much for them.

Long before the final whistle, the conversations around us were drifting towards other matters. In his match programme welcome to patrons, the Connacht council president Gearóid McSamhráin noted that if there is to be a two -tier championship, then that should come into play only after a county has been eliminated from the provincial championship. In other words, the provincial championship is sacred. But for how long?

One of the great surprises to me when I was involved with Roscommon was the level of anxiety with which many people in the county seemed to approach Leitrim games. Even during the week, people in Roscommon clearly saw this as a real challenge even though the game was in Dr Hyde Park. There is this deep -rooted, long-standing local rivalry of which I hadn't been fully aware despite living in the town for many years.

You'd constantly hear this refrain: "Well, we have a big rivalry with Leitrim." Or: "Oh God, I don't like paying them in Carrick at all. We struggle against them always."

I was fascinated by this and I looked it up to discover that Roscommon have never lost a championship game to Leitrim in Carrick-on-Shannon. But this is just one of the intense, complex local rivalries deeply embedded in the GAA and which has always given the provincial championship its kinetic energy.

Sunday in Dr Hyde Park ran along such overwhelmingly predictable lines that it made me wonder to what extent the border rivalry is still alive.

One of my most memorable introductions to the power of the local rivalry was in 2006 when I was covering a game between Tyrone and Derry in Omagh for RTÉ television.

Like most people, I knew that they had history but to my mind, at that point in time, Tyrone were in a different league; they were All-Ireland champions, they were young, the manner of their win the previous September meant that they were the talk of the country. But in the ground that day, that disparity did not exist.

There was genuine concern among Tyrone fans. Equally, there was a real defiance among the Derry crowd and an expectation that their team would take Tyrone on physically and impose themselves. In attitude, it was the last remnants of the Eamon Coleman era. And both sets of crowds did not really like one another.

Almost feral

The idea of losing was unconscionable. The atmosphere was almost feral. The tribalism was absolute. It is an amazing thing that 20 yards of land can create this intense contrast in loyalties and emotions. But the atmosphere that day was extraordinary. There was a sense that all bets were off; this was a day in which anything could happen.

And lo and behold, Derry came out and won by six points. I remember wondering where that had come from; for how long had that Derry team been thinking about and planning that one game. Once the fixtures were announced, they had six, seven months to think about it and talk about it and prepare.

Tyrone became their reason to be and they would have been conscious of the portrayal of those players as champions. And afterwards, there was an unmistakable sense of a significant shift: the champions had been beaten and that changed everything. That was the power of the local rivalry, the potential for this unexpected shock.
Tyrone versus Derry in 2006 generated an awesome atmosphere but Derry have slipped a long way down the rankings and the rivalry has been diluted. Photograph: Lorcan Doherty/Inpho Tyrone versus Derry in 2006 generated an awesome atmosphere but Derry have slipped a long way down the rankings and the rivalry has been diluted. Photograph: Lorcan Doherty/Inpho 
It's probably the elemental thrill of the football championship: the possibility that one county will defy form and tradition and use the energy of that rivalry to take their neighbour out. In the 1980s and 1990s, I think those days were quite common. There was less information available then: teams could train away in seclusion, maybe spring a debutante player and pull off an ambush in the sun. But over the last decade, they are an increasingly rare occurrence.

On Sunday, we had an extremely good performance from Offaly who came close to what would have been a considerable shock against Meath in Navan.

Had Niall McNamee managed to finish the goal chance he worked, then that game would have been over. And Limerick's win over Tipperary was a huge surprise because Tipp' are regarded as a top 12 team. But I think the idea of the All-Ireland champions being taken down in provincial games is becoming increasingly remote.

And yet, the siege mentality remains hugely important to teams. Returning to Roscommon, they face Mayo next in the Connacht semi-final. And so they are entering into a bigger and historically more troubling rivalry. For whatever reason, Mayo are comfortable with the idea of playing Roscommon, who haven't won in Castlebar since 1986.

I was playing in that game and it was precisely the kind of shock I'm talking about. Mayo had had a big year in 1985 and we were expected to follow up and then Roscommon just turned us over and ended our summer. But in recent years, the sense of rivalry has been diluted by the fact that Mayo win. The fixture has lost its lustre.

This is partly to do with managers taking mythology out of the equation. In Mayo, for example, the big psychological stumbling block was always Galway. We had this attitude that we could take on anyone but that Galway would somehow get the better of us. In my playing career, we met Galway in seven championship games. I think it's fair to say we probably had a better team in five of those years. But we lost every time.
Received knowledge

It was part of our received knowledge that Mayo teams struggled with Galway. In contrast, Roscommon seemed to love playing Galway. I couldn't get over it. They relished it – they always sensed they had a chance and that definitely fed into the approach in 2017 when I was managing them.

The attitude becomes embedded in the county itself. It is inherited and passed down through kitchen table conversations and stories told in the car and in the pub. It's a national thing. You hear Donegal people say, 'oh, we struggle with Monaghan'. Or Monaghan dreading playing Tyrone. It becomes part of the narrative of these local rivalries. And it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But the evidence suggests that the combination of mythology and those genuine out-of-the-blue shocks are disappearing from the game. There is so much information now and preparation and the stronger teams so well drilled that games tend to run along anticipated lines. Teams and managers like to talk about one game at a time. But any team with ambition plans for the bigger picture and takes certain chances with selection and takes calculated gambles.
Offaly put it up to Meath for a long time before Meath struck for a crucial goal. The former keen Dublin-Meath rivalry is moribund, at least for now. Photograph: Lorraine O'Sullivan/Inpho Offaly put it up to Meath for a long time before Meath struck for a crucial goal. The former keen Dublin-Meath rivalry is moribund, at least for now. Photograph: Lorraine O'Sullivan/Inpho 
Teams are starting to win the games they should be winning. The shock factor is being eliminated from the equation. You play correctly and take care of business and then all attention goes to the fixture that you know will make or break your championship. For the few years I was in Roscommon, trying to convince the squad that Leitrim was not a key rival was a tricky piece of psychology.

Perhaps in their father's era it had been a true rivalry but now it was a ticket to the semi-final. And that is not to be disrespectful to Leitrim, it's just that the record book points to the fact that Roscommon win these games – often overwhelmingly. So it went on Sunday.

Ebbing away

And the pattern is being repeated. Rivalries are disappearing. Dublin-Meath is over – at least for now. Kerry and Cork is not a rivalry, at least for the present time. Mayo and Galway has never been more alive. But Tyrone and Armagh is nothing like the contest it was a decade ago. The only theatre still sustaining the tradition of the shock in the championship is Ulster. But even there, Tyrone and Donegal and Monaghan have come to dominate the silverware since Armagh's golden era came to a close in 2006.

So the tension and drama of these provincial days is slowly ebbing away. And it is hard to see how it is going to re-establish itself. There were 8,061 people in Hyde Park on Sunday, a nice crowd but probably 4,000 less than would have turned up when the provincial championship games were the only show in town.

They are becoming diluted for sure. And it is only going one way. Therein lies one of the linchpins of the provincial championship. This has to be of significant concern not just to the provincial councils but also the custodians of the GAA.

In some ways, this is terrible to see. But if these rivalries have lost their electricity, whether real or imagined, then it is becoming increasingly clear the provincial championships are reaching the end of the line.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 14, 2019, 09:29:13 AM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 10:35:26 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provincials. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

All very good but the highlighted ideas if implemented would leave little or no space on the calendar for club football and hurling.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 11:12:06 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 14, 2019, 12:05:51 AM
Is there something to be said for another mass a boycott by teams and fans? Maybe that'll make the head honchos sit up and take notice.


?????????

Anyway
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-championship-plans-to-be-put-to-management-committee-38109439.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Quote from: five points on May 13, 2019, 04:03:09 PM
Quote from: befair on May 13, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Rackard moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cúnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 11:37:24 AM

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Rackard moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cúnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.

Nicky Rackard died over 40 years ago. If you're going to impugn someone, at least don't confuse them with a dead man.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: five points on May 14, 2019, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 11:37:24 AM

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Brennan moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cúnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.

Nicky Rackard died over 40 years ago. If you're going to impugn someone, at least don't confuse them with a dead man.

Apologies there. My ire is to be directed at a Mr Nicky Brennan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 12:55:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 12:35:49 PM
Apologies there. My ire is to be directed at a Mr Nicky Brennan.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 14, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 14, 2019, 09:29:13 AM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void

Your biggest rivals are the team you are trying to beat. Tyrone used to rival Armagh and Derry. Now it's Dublin and Kerry. That's a fact. Teams playing at their level going out to win. That's what everyone wants and anyone against that is against the GAA, Irish people and Mankind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 14, 2019, 02:38:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 14, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 14, 2019, 09:29:13 AM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void

Your biggest rivals are the team you are trying to beat. Tyrone used to rival Armagh and Derry. Now it's Dublin and Kerry. That's a fact. Teams playing at their level going out to win. That's what everyone wants and anyone against that is against the GAA, Irish people and Mankind.
Down play Armagh this Sunday in first round of the championship.  It will probably be close to a sell out in Newry.  They could call the second/third tier competition the Sean O'Neill cup and I don't think there would be a big crowd in Newry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 03:47:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Just the mammies.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 15, 2019, 09:36:50 AM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 15, 2019, 09:47:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Fcuk all do in Mayo anyway Ross.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 15, 2019, 10:59:50 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 15, 2019, 09:47:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Fcuk all do in Mayo anyway Ross.

I'm sure the players feel their club intermediate and junior titles are worthless because they weren't shown on tv.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
I've never seen a sad or disappointed Junior or Inter Championship winner.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 15, 2019, 01:10:42 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 15, 2019, 09:36:50 AM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992

Unbelievable. Sounds like a guy who never stepped foot on a sodden club pitch in the winter nor even a windswept county game terrace in February or March.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Mourne Red on May 15, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 03:47:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Just the mammies.

I wish, not even my mum goes to my games
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 15, 2019, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: five points on May 15, 2019, 01:10:42 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 15, 2019, 09:36:50 AM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992

Unbelievable. Sounds like a guy who never stepped foot on a sodden club pitch in the winter nor even a windswept county game terrace in February or March.
And says that we should leave September alone for club activity, but that the All-Ireland finals would be on the second weekend in September  ???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LaurelEye on May 16, 2019, 02:50:01 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/jHxsB5K/Wicklow.jpg)

"Curtain-raiser to an All-Ireland quarter-final".

Out of sight, out of mind, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LaurelEye on May 16, 2019, 02:55:19 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
I've never seen a sad or disappointed Junior or Inter Championship winner.

I remember the last time we won Intermediate being lectured by know-it-alls on how we should stay Intermediate to "have our own little championship that we could win". Thankfully, we had higher ambitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: LaurelEye on May 16, 2019, 02:50:01 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/jHxsB5K/Wicklow.jpg)

"Curtain-raiser to an All-Ireland quarter-final".

Out of sight, out of mind, really.

The EFL playoffs the last couple of nights show how to do a second-tier championship with drama.
If we hold the AI senior final third sunday in September, there shouldn't be a problem doing an Intermediate final the Sunday before in one of the other massive stadiums the GAA have.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 09:06:46 AM
What makes an Intermediate club final or those English soccer play offs is the prize on offer i.e Promotion to the next grade.
Current proposals for a stand alone "tier 2" are in effect Tommy Murphy take 2 - with a bit of pre thinking this time rather than the back of Seán Kelly's envelope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I'm amazed at how many people try to compare these proposals with the club tiered system or, now, the EFL Championship.

The major difference is that all 32 counties have for over a hundred years been allowed to play in this current format. Half of them are now, in a roundabout way, being relegated from this structure when they haven't warranted relegation because no relegation has ever existed.

If the stakeholders from these counties want to go down this road then that's fair enough, I think they should be allowed to, once they all have their say; players, supporters etc.

But the whole "it works at club level" bit is irrelevant for me as you're not comparing like with like.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 16, 2019, 09:31:18 AM
It's going to happen. All the D3 and D4 counties need to get promoted or do well in their province if they want to be at the top table. For all the talk of equal promotion of a tier 2 competition - it won't happen. Maybe for the first year or two but it will fade thereafter.

Will be interesting to see how/when the poaching of players from the have nots to the haves kicks in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 09:06:46 AM
What makes an Intermediate club final or those English soccer play offs is the prize on offer i.e Promotion to the next grade.
Current proposals for a stand alone "tier 2" are in effect Tommy Murphy take 2 - with a bit of pre thinking this time rather than the back of Seán Kelly's envelope.
It's more the idea of holding it on a weekend or day by itself, rather than the curtain raiser to an AI Senior final (in the minor slot) which I was getting at. Needs to be an event in its own right. With a prize at the end, like you say.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 09:46:45 AM
To be realistic these finals will be played on a wet friday evening in Ballymcnowhere in front to the players families and some lad with an iphone in case there's a row for SM likes.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 16, 2019, 10:33:47 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I'm amazed at how many people try to compare these proposals with the club tiered system or, now, the EFL Championship.

The major difference is that all 32 counties have for over a hundred years been allowed to play in this current format. Half of them are now, in a roundabout way, being relegated from this structure when they haven't warranted relegation because no relegation has ever existed.

If the stakeholders from these counties want to go down this road then that's fair enough, I think they should be allowed to, once they all have their say; players, supporters etc.

But the whole "it works at club level" bit is irrelevant for me as you're not comparing like with like.

That horse has already bolted when a lot of these same counties voted for the tiering in the hurling championship.

They'd be hypocrites to then not vote for tiering in the football.

But learn lessons from where hurling went wrong and ensure it's hard written into the competition that the finals are played on the AI semi-final days.

The tiering in the hurling was brilliant until they moved us out of Croke Park on a big occasion
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 10:41:51 AM
All the National Finals of all tiers and none should be played in Croke Park.
And admission prices should be reduced to encourage people to attend.
€25 for Ring/Rackard/Meagher Finals is appalling and results in around 3k attendances annually.
Now if it was €10 adults and 1€ kids....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
Quote

That horse has already bolted when a lot of these same counties voted for the tiering in the hurling championship.

They'd be hypocrites to then not vote for tiering in the football.

Hypocrites? Hardly. Hurling has always had tiers, because of the vast gulfs in standards between the best half dozen or so, the next half dozen and so on, that would turn almost all games between counties in different grades to cricket score debacles. Football has never had that problem.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 10:41:51 AM
All the National Finals of all tiers and none should be played in Croke Park.
And admission prices should be reduced to encourage people to attend.
€25 for Ring/Rackard/Meagher Finals is appalling and results in around 3k attendances annually.
Now if it was €10 adults and 1€ kids....

The attraction of playing a game in an almost-deserted Croke Park escapes me.

And, for almost all counties, the admission price into Croke Park is only part of the cost of attending. It would cost me at least €40 to travel to a Ring/Rackard/Meagher Final in Croke Park even if there was free admission.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.
The supposed panacea being Brexit itself, or EU membership?  :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 12:57:05 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM


A number of strident voices 
GAA Central Council.?
Managers and Players from the weaker Counties?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 12:57:05 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM


A number of strident voices 
GAA Central Council.?
Managers and Players from the weaker Counties?

No. Those are the whipped up people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 02:01:56 PM
But you O knowledgeable one..... know best.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 02:32:59 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.
If the disenchantment exists to the level you imply then fair enough, a change is needed. Is this the change that's needed? That's a different question. Are Wicklow, London and Waterford players going to think they can now win this particular trophy with Division 3 teams involved? Will we have to revisit this in a few years to make a third and fourth tier and effectively have a duplicate of the league?

Also, maybe getting the big draw and playing out of their skins is more appealing to teams from the lower divisions, I don't know. What says the GPA members?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 02:01:56 PM
But you O knowledgeable one..... know best.

I see what you did there.... very clever. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.
Why not both?
We already have the Super 8s, why can't we extend the same group system across two tiers of 16 teams or four tiers of 8? Is it for the best that Derry's summer is over if they lose a preliminary round Ulster game and a first round qualifier, so they basically don't play any football in the summer at all?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 16, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Is there a 2 tiered proposal out there that includes removing the provincial Championships ? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 16, 2019, 04:16:45 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones.

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

It's the way i see it also.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Thanks for the summary.

If a Division 3 or 4 team do reach a provincial semi-final (impossible, I know) in Proposal 1 does the lowest team in Division 2 then get knocked down to the second tier championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 05:10:58 PM
I presume you mean reach a Provincial Final?
As far as I know Tier 2 would go  ahead with 15 teams..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 16, 2019, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Yes, I'd have been very happy for Derry to be playing in a championship in which they'd a reasonable chance of progress and ultimate success. Then just like at club level if we were to win we'd move up to the next level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.

That'd be the North American championship then!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 17, 2019, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 16, 2019, 09:31:18 AM
It's going to happen. All the D3 and D4 counties need to get promoted or do well in their province if they want to be at the top table. For all the talk of equal promotion of a tier 2 competition - it won't happen. Maybe for the first year or two but it will fade thereafter.

Will be interesting to see how/when the poaching of players from the have nots to the haves kicks in.

This would never happen in Kildare but it's a very valid and excellent point I suspect very few have thought of. It will happen.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 17, 2019, 01:14:11 PM
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 17, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: five points on May 17, 2019, 01:14:11 PM
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.

Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 17, 2019, 02:02:20 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 17, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.

Agree 100%. My idea is aimed more at those who seem hell-bent on a new county competition without any regard for clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 17, 2019, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
And a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 03:12:31 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
Exactly my point.

They beat Division 1 teams on very few occasions and they also beat Division 3 teams on very few occasions. So what?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 17, 2019, 10:58:39 PM
There's a big gap between division 3 and 4 though. Division 2 to 1 seems a jump whereas 3 to 2 not as much of a jump. As an Antrim fan it feels like we mainly play the same teams year in year out as it's just yo yo down there barring Tipperary who have improved a lot(barring last week)and Louth seem to go through phases of dragging themselves out of 4. Sligo come and go too. Limerick, Antrim, Wicklow, London, Wexford now, Leitrim, Carlow all regulars. Championship performance generally reflect this too bar limerick last week.

Division 4 pace is so far behind 1 it's like a different game. Not as bad as the hurling but the likelihood of shocks getting less. I would say though that to me the limerick result was a big shock last week so you will get exceptions.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on May 18, 2019, 11:11:05 AM
Antrim really is an outlier that should be at least in the middle rank rather than the lowest rank of teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 19, 2019, 11:22:46 AM
Not too many in Breffni Park last night wanting to drop the Ulster Championship. Beating Monaghan means infinitely more to Cavan than doing likewise to say Galway or Kildare ever would.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 12:19:06 PM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oakleaf93 on May 19, 2019, 09:00:05 PM
We need a two tier championship so we don't have to watch a div 2 v div 3 rivalsl play out a tight game in front of 15,000 people
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 09:12:36 PM
Another who hasn't read the outline of the current proposals that I posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on May 20, 2019, 07:58:47 AM
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8's, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQF's. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isn't even equal. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 20, 2019, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 12:19:06 PM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?

Quite a number of people, including here, want to play them in wintry February and March as some sort of glorified McKenna Cup, which amounts to the same thing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 10:17:31 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 20, 2019, 07:58:47 AM
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8's, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQF's. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isn't even equal.

The provincials have been undervalued by the qualifiers. It's nice to win but it's not the end of the world for those with AI aspirations, if you don't.

So, if you don't have a link from provincials to AI series (you sort of don't really now anyway),what's the point? Teams would then use it as a warm up for the c'ship. In the same way they do in the League now. It would go the same way as the Ulster Hurling c'ship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
Quote from: five points on May 20, 2019, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 12:19:06 PM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?

Quite a number of people, including here, want to play them in wintry February and March as some sort of glorified McKenna Cup, which amounts to the same thing.
Nobody officially in GAA world ..... just us blatherers here :D

No point bringing hurling into the argument.
You'd think Louth v Kilkenny used to play each  in Leinster and get half an hour on the Sunday game.....
The tiers suit hurling because of the vast differences in standards and the miniscule number if hurlers in half the Counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.
(https://i.ibb.co/XpKhZZy/westmeath-chair.jpg)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 20, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 20, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Better than what was in our programme yesterday, a pair of articles related to tiering the championships, Croke Park now it has settled itself on pursuing the tiered system in football appear to be using its match programmes to push that agenda as well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on May 20, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Better than what was in our programme yesterday, a pair of articles related to tiering the championships, Croke Park now it has settled itself on pursuing the tiered system in football appear to be using its match programmes to push that agenda as well.

It a big country wide road show done by HQ to get this football tiered system in place as soon as possible. The same thing was done to scrap the U21 championship and it was replaced by a poorer competition where the public have less interest in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 05:37:01 PM
Most teams, managers and fans won't be in favour but they'll just follow what HQ tells them

So if most aren't in favour of tier 2, don't participate. You can't have a competition if there's no teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 20, 2019, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 05:37:01 PM
So if most aren't in favour of tier 2, don't participate. You can't have a competition if there's no teams.

That's exactly what happened the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 20, 2019, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.
(https://i.ibb.co/XpKhZZy/westmeath-chair.jpg)

Totally agree with his sentiments. The second tier competition in hurling is a huge success for players, coaches and supporters. His only quibble is the lack of media coverage which is disappointing. While it's disappointing it doesn't stop the competition from being hugely enjoyable and satisfying for players and supporters because they're at the right level to develop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 06:29:52 PM
Is the priority good competitive championships or media coverage?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 20, 2019, 06:32:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 06:29:52 PM
Is the priority good competitive championships or media coverage?
Depends who you're asking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 20, 2019, 06:41:53 PM
It's not just the lack of media coverage that is a problem for the hurling tiers but loads of good players from these tiered competitions in hurling don't tog out for their counties and the lack of support that goes to Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher cup games  is low so i don't think that type of environment is something that needs to be copied in football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 06:57:38 PM
What's the ticket prices for Ring, Rackard etc?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 07:29:10 PM
Very few ever went to watch the Counties currently  in the Ring Rackard or Meagher Cups playing hurling.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 21, 2019, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.
(https://i.ibb.co/XpKhZZy/westmeath-chair.jpg)

The line about when the controversy ends they will lose interest encapsulates everything that is wrong with this debate and could equally be applied to the situation on here. Keyboard warriors bandwaggoning onto a cause and championing it until they see achieve 'success' for their 1 eyed point of view. Then move on to the next "issue".

It has nearly got to the stage where the GAA is being run by twitter.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 12:30:11 PM
Nothing like a good rant ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 21, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
What the hell do people* actually want?
Tiered championships where the B winners get into the last 8?

League and championship tied together - staggered rounds FA Cup like?

Division 3/4 automatically enter tier 2 even though they might win and still be in those two divisions I.e not promoted to division 2?

Tier 2 automatically get promoted to tier 1 even though they may be stuck in Division 3/4?

Three tiers?

Four tiers - saving drawing the line and make the league the be all and end all - home and away etc?

Or something else?

*  Those of you who want a tiered championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldn't help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to "right" the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coach's, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 21, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know, the league is also meant to be the main competition where "weaker" teams develop and improve.  Championship use to be an old fashion out knock competition but with all the chopping and changing of recent years you now have the introduction of a back door taking the edge off provincial championship games and the daftness of group stage for the last eight that more less stopped one of the best things about any competition which is the story of the underdog.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 21, 2019, 03:50:01 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldn't help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to "right" the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coach's, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.

Galway and Sligo set up the exact same way. It was like for like. In both halves of the game. Galway pushed up on Sligo's kickout, Sligo didn't push up on Galway's - that was essentially the only difference in setup. To me it's not "ultra" defensive - that's when you lose the ball and everyone just turns and runs back to their 45 which I understand Down did for large periods on Sunday. A lot of commentators don't understand what's happening in front of their eyes.

I also am unsure that more coaches is the answer. In the smaller counties it's about maximising your resources and bringing every player along as far as you can - not picking groups and working on them. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on May 21, 2019, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They don't need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but it's very rare across most sports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 21, 2019, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They don't need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but it's very rare across most sports.
My comment was tongue in cheek; it's the line being thrown around with very little foundation, see Wicklow, London and Waterford for example.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 22, 2019, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM
I couldn't help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 22, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 21, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 22, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: five points on May 22, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 21, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.

My point is leagues are important in other team sports be it professional or not and NFL is the best format the GAA have and those at the top should put more time and energy into to making that more important than ever changing the championship to see what will work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 22, 2019, 02:12:42 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on May 22, 2019, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: joemamas on May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM
I couldn't help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 22, 2019, 07:10:51 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 22, 2019, 02:12:42 PM
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.

Which means doing away with the provincial championships. While that might be OK in Leinster 'cos the GAA have f**ked everyone over except the Dubs - that doesn't mean the rest aren't at least semi-competitive. Out in Connacht, every team in the last 25 years has won it.

Munster isn't as competitive and Leinster has went to crap - but even it has 6 different winners in the last 25 years.

Junior/Intermediate/Senior works at club level because you still have representatives from each county.


If - for the sake of argument - on the inter county scene in Ulster you had 1 junior county, 5 intermediate and 3 senior - then what kinda junior championship would you have? Pretty difficult.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
You already have the "Big 8s" or "Soooooper 8" ale Marty M.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 09:44:28 AM
Tiering is just another step on the road to professionalism for a select number of teams. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 09:46:23 AM
Hasn't happened in Hurling ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 10:49:19 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.

There will be, at the very least, 4 teams in Super 8 who have no meaningful and realistic chance of winning. Same forat least half the teams in intermediate and there will be some almighty pastings handed out to the lower end of the Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 10:59:49 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.

You talk about mismatches. The Super 8's last year involved the top 8 teams. And results involved two near 20 point defeats for Roscommon.

The football c'ship is monotonous as it is with constant fixtures involving Mayo Dublin Kerry Tyrone Galway. Limiting Sam to 8 teams will make the senior c'ship an absolute farce.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 11:08:11 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 23, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oakleaflad on May 23, 2019, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 11:08:11 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
That excitement is to do with the number of realistically possible winners, not the total number of teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 23, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 11:25:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 11:08:11 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
Because the competitiveness level within the top table in hurling as is even as it has probably ever been. 9 of the 10 teams can feel capable of beating whatever opposition they face, and you really couldn't confidently say who'll come out on top come August. When the new system came into place last year it could easily have been felt that Limerick would prop up the Munster group, things turned out quite differently. Likewise this year there were plenty of questions about Tipperary from the spring and last year, and two games in and suddenly they're the team in form. Go back about a decade with the current setup, when Kilkenny were well out in front with only Tipperary being serious challengers to them, and the excitement might have been a good deal more limited.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 23, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 23, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
This is it, there was the Junior competition for many counties but it didn't seem the most structured of competitions. What the Ring/Rackard/Meagher has done is at least provide well structured summer (well early summer anyway) competitions for the counties involved, but it hasn't necessarily brought many of them on at all, and the increasing marginalisation of them by Croke Park doesn't make those of us who will be cut adrift in a similar scenario in football any more welcoming of the prospect.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 23, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.

Hilarious. There's a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry don't have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone don't have to play errigal Ciaran. There's no reason it can't work in county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 12:15:50 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 23, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. They've been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past they'd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.

Hilarious. There's a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry don't have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone don't have to play errigal Ciaran. There's no reason it can't work in county.
What does "work" mean?

If you mean the games would be more competitive and teams would have a better chance of winning then I'd say you're definitely right.

But as these pages and several other threads have clearly shown, that is not all that matters to all of the people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 23, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
But but but I thought Louth and Kilkenny used to play before crowds of 10,000 and get loads of newspaper coverage.....

Better put one if these in for the 6 Co lads benefits ;D :D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 01:26:58 PM
The GAA will be implementing a champions league format in the championship, guaranteed. Because it brings in the most revenue. A straight knockout championship makes no sense to the money men.  We've already seen it implemented at Munster and Leinster hurling. It's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 01:30:57 PM
Any idea when the world might be ending?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 01:30:57 PM
Any idea when the world might be ending?

Any day now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 01:26:58 PM
The GAA will be implementing a round robin format in the championship, guaranteed. Because it brings in the most revenue. A straight knockout championship makes no sense to the money men.  We've already seen it implemented at Munster and Leinster hurling. It's just a matter of time.
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
Already got that for the last 8.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 23, 2019, 03:21:26 PM
The grouping of teams around the same level makes the hurling far more interesting than the football.
If a team is good enough it will get promoted.

Antrim hurlers for example get to compare themselves against their peers. They won't go up until they are good enough.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2019, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
Hilarious. There's a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry don't have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone don't have to play errigal Ciaran. There's no reason it can't work in county.

'cos you want to beat your neighbours in a match that will invariably be played much closer to both counties than Antrim taking on Tipperary in the Junior Championship.

Hard to have local matches that matter if you aren't even in the same competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2019, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 23, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
Hilarious. There's a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry don't have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone don't have to play errigal Ciaran. There's no reason it can't work in county.

'cos you want to beat your neighbours in a match that will invariably be played much closer to both counties than Antrim taking on Tipperary in the Junior Championship.

Hard to have local matches that matter if you aren't even in the same competition.

After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 23, 2019, 06:08:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: five points on May 23, 2019, 06:08:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.

The same Tipp who've been dumped out of Munster @ the first hurdle by Limerick!? A couple of years is a long time in football.

I was quoting GAAGAA's example. IF Tipp were in Div 3 and didn't for example reach their Prov final, then in a tiered setup they shouldn't be near the A competition in that particular year

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: five points on May 23, 2019, 06:08:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.

The same Tipp who've been dumped out of Munster @ the first hurdle by Limerick
!? A couple of years is a long time in football.

I was quoting GAAGAA's example. IF Tipp were in Div 3 and didn't for example reach their Prov final, then in a tiered setup they shouldn't be near the A competition in that particular year
The same Limerick who beat Division 2 Tipperary this year ;)

Point and counterpoint, this is fun.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
 Tipp now classed as D3 per the 2nd tier proposal.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2019, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

You completely miss my point.

Who is gonna watch it? Who will care? Tommy Murphy and the "B" championship before it were not very well attended till the final. How will county boards fund it all on the back of marginal gates?

Are players really gonna knock their pan in training and happily give up a weekend travelling the length of the country for an also-ran tournament? Or would they rather go back to their clubs where they (also) have a chance of winning silverware at that level?


Why is this second tier going to work now whereas the last two attempts at it failed miserably?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on May 24, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 24, 2019, 07:22:52 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 24, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).

Did the tiering of the hurling championship mean that the support for the weaker counties dwindled? Maybe my memory is playing tricks but I never remember Donegal or Louth hurlers getting massive crowds in the old system. In fact I know a Donegal hurler who loves the new system and treasures his all ireland medal which he won in croke park in front of a decent crowd for a donegal game.

Football is different because every county has a reasonable level of ability and most have a reasonable following. I would ask the question differently. Players from the weaker counties should go to the intermediate and junior clubs in their county and ask the players there how does it feel to have a good run or win a junior/intermediate championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 24, 2019, 08:23:55 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 24, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).

Good post and I like the idea of going back to Div 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 24, 2019, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 24, 2019, 08:23:55 AM
Quote from: trileacman on May 24, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).

Good post and I like the idea of going back to Div 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b.
I agree I thought it was a really interesting post.  Division 1A and 1B would give teams like Meath, Cavan etc a better chance to stay in the top division longer and bed in a few players and try to establish themselves at that level, then when it comes to the championship they should have a better chance of giving the better teams a tough game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 24, 2019, 09:02:51 AM
One way of getting Sligo out of D4 ::)
Nobody outside the hurling Area of Roscommon ever gave two flying fks about the County hurling team and still don't even though they're going well in the Ring this year.
I still recall the photo of them when they won the Rackard Cup a few years ago- they were one happy looking bunch and it obviously meant a lot to them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 24, 2019, 11:19:46 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 24, 2019, 11:33:08 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 24, 2019, 11:19:46 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.
Five tiers is too many in hurling. The Meagher ends up as a kind of "leftover" tournament of the teams left at the bottom.  They should look to merge it with the Rackard.
Maybe increase the number of teams in the Joe McDonagh if the no. of teams per tier needs evened out, but I don't really see than much difference in a twelve-team Rackard cup and and eight-team one.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 25, 2019, 08:18:31 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 24, 2019, 11:19:46 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.

What was the point of that Tyrone Antrim game? Who got any enjoyment or pleasure from that. Pointless for both teams. Time to tier football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: playwiththewind1st on May 25, 2019, 08:22:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 25, 2019, 08:18:31 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 24, 2019, 11:19:46 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.

What was the point of that Tyrone Antrim game? Who got any enjoyment or pleasure from that. Pointless for both teams. Time to tier football.

Probably to show Tyrone how much work they have to do if they really want to descend to Antrim's level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on May 25, 2019, 10:06:16 PM
As an Antrim man I'd actually be in favour of a tiered system 100%  that pissed me off tonight, not the hammering as much as the commentators constantly giving Antrim a pat on the head 'ah sure they're a div 4 team, fair play the lads kept trying hard and didn't let their heads drop' its bullsh*t let our players play at a level where they are competitive and can get silverware not just a pat in the back and keep up the good work.

Condense the county season, do away with Mckenna cup etc, play provincial championship before the league over 4/5 week period, hit the league as a straight format no semi finals etc then hit a 2 tiered championship whatever way they want to do champions league format or whatever.

People talk about lack of interest poor crowds etc, 1 idea is play all double headers seeing as the minor games aren't on before senior games, have the B game on before the A game and if they want to boost the numbers to look good on tv etc have an incentive like if you're in for the first game your 2 kids get in free, there are ways but the gaa really needs to do something soon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 25, 2019, 10:59:23 PM
Themac23, sure the league is effectively meaningless, as in nobody really is bothered if they win it or not. And if the provincial c'ship is a stand-alone Competition, it effectively becomes meaningless too.

Also, the team in the preliminary round. Do you think they'd seriously bust their balls 4 weeks running to win a meaningless Ulster? And kn**ker themselves for the main competition?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on May 25, 2019, 11:26:09 PM
Jaysus football is a funny old game. Mayo win the league and beat a very good Kerry team in the final, then get beat in c'ship by Roscommon, the same Roscommon team that just about beat Armagh last year in the Qualifiers then proceeded to get thumped in the super 8's and this is the Mayo team (whats left anyway) thats the only team to lay a glove on the Dubs in the championship in years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2019, 11:46:57 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 25, 2019, 11:26:09 PM
Jaysus football is a funny old game. Mayo win the league and beat a very good Kerry team in the final, then get beat in c'ship by Roscommon, the same Roscommon team that just about beat Armagh last year in the Qualifiers then proceeded to get thumped in the super 8's and this is the Mayo team (whats left anyway) thats the only team to lay a glove on the Dubs in the championship in years.

All of that is true and that's why it's a beautiful game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on May 26, 2019, 12:14:34 AM
Tiered football will finally bury the lesser counties. What's going on now is shambolic. There's your choices. Stick or twist. There is no solution in reality. I personally think county boundaries are an archaic way of setting up teams. Too many imbalances to overcome
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 26, 2019, 12:44:54 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

+1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on May 26, 2019, 06:47:48 AM
For last nights matches, Dublin were 1/100 with bookmakers. The handicap was 6 goals, which they covered easily. They are by far the most skewed odds you will see on a bookmakers website. I have tried hard but I'm unable to think of a sporting equivalent, in an organised tournament situation, where the odds would be so extreme. This is not even sport any more, and the GAA should be f**king ashamed

I think there comes a point in any sport where you are doing harm to yourself if you continue to play in a match you cannot win. We have gone well passed that point with some of these matches. If it was a club game, there'd by no time wasted in some places offering a walkover.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 26, 2019, 07:04:12 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

I don't understand your logic at all. Clubs can progress through the ranks from junior to senior so the same can happen at county level. A few big guns will generally always be there but if there's a 2 up, 2 down system there's lots of room for progression.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on May 26, 2019, 07:04:26 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2019, 10:59:23 PM
Themac23, sure the league is effectively meaningless, as in nobody really is bothered if they win it or not. And if the provincial c'ship is a stand-alone Competition, it effectively becomes meaningless too.

Also, the team in the preliminary round. Do you think they'd seriously bust their balls 4 weeks running to win a meaningless Ulster? And kn**ker themselves for the main competition?

I understand where you're coming from with regards to teams not busting themselves for 4 weeks before a main competition but effectively that's where we are at the min anyway, the provincial championship is effectively just a safety net for the big counties, for example Mayo getting beaten last night I still fully expect to see them in the super 8s. But nobody can tell me they enjoyed that Antrim game, we had 13 behind the ball when 10pts down, was complete damaged limitation from the start, to me that's not football. Play teams at your own level that's how to progress. It's one issue that seems to totally divide, I know people who like myself are all for it and also people who are dead set against it but I think it is something needs really looked at
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on May 26, 2019, 09:52:30 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?
Agreed.
Even if it was tiered, hammerings will still happen.

This century we’ve had 9pt, 8pt, 12pt, and 10pt victories in All-Ireland finals.

In the last 10yrs there have been victories in the Quarter Finals / Super 8 of 10pts, 22pts, 14pts, 18pts, 9pts, 10pts, 27pts, 8pts, 15pts, 19pts, 13pts, 18pts, 13pts, 8pts, 9pts, 13pts and 17pts

In the Semi-Finals there have been hammerings of 12pts, 9pts and 9pts.

If this board was around in the 1970’s / 80’s.  Some would be discussing whether or not to allow Ulster sides compete in the All-Ireland competition.  As an extension,  they would suggest that Leinster and Munster should compete for Sam, and Connacht and Ulster should compete in a second tier.

Even if we look at league standings - over the last 5 years the two teams that have finished bottom of Div 1 [teams that would be considered to be Top 8] have a grand total of 10 victories from 70 matches. Cork own 3 of those from the 2016 league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?

Exactly.

Roscommon are top 9/10, and they clearly aren't good enough to compete in the top grade.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 26, 2019, 12:26:59 PM
I hope Limerick beat Cork next weekend so we can an opposite but equal reaction of, look little teams can beat big teams.

In all seriousness though, I thought that Aidan O'Rourke's proposal yesterday was good, despite it being complicated and, by his own admission, not taking every area of the sport into consideration. I think it would keep a lot of people happy.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Substandard on May 26, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
I would be very wary of a tiered system, but already the smaller counties get so little exposure.
Maybe if there was an open draw where win your first Tier 1 game, you get a home draw next day.  Lose, and you go into a neutral venue, which would be a home venue for a Tier 2 winner.  (I haven't done the maths here, so don't shoot if it ends up unworkable).
The winners of each play off (1 and 2) progress, the losers in Tier 1 go into a relegation semi-final.

The Top 2 in Tier 2 automatically qualify for Tier 1 next year.  The bottom 2 (losing relegation semi-finalists) Tier 1 teams relegated, and the winning semi-finalists play off against the losing semi-finalists from Tier 2.  Therefore, there could be potentially a 4 team swing in any given year, however unlikely that could be.
It's not perfect, I haven't allowed for New York or the provincials, but I strongly believe that there needs to be a realistic target for promotion to the top Tier for teams from behind.  If it's a case of only one, or even two up, then you are effectively cutting off a lot of counties for good, and there would be at least 12 counties with significant games, whether to win their Tiers, or stay in Tier 1.
It's just my tuppence worth, as I said, there's probably huge, and maybe unworkable, holes in it.

On the subject of exposure, maybe a Match Of The Day format with a decent amount of match highlights with minimal analysis to showcase the counties, and a separate program which could deal with more in-depth analysis.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2019, 08:09:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.
:o

Up there with Cromwell

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RTÉ bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. It's not like it's behind closed doors. If you can't be arsed to go to the game, don't complain about coverage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 26, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
The current proposals being discussed provide for retaining the Provincials.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 26, 2019, 10:04:05 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. It's not like it's behind closed doors. If you can't be arsed to go to the game, don't complain about coverage.
To be honest, the thought never crossed my mind to head down to Kildare v Longford but seeing as it appears to have been a good game I'd like to see some of it.
Yeah I was at all the games today, even the ones that were on at the same time. Would yis quit complaining.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 27, 2019, 10:50:43 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 26, 2019, 10:04:05 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. It's not like it's behind closed doors. If you can't be arsed to go to the game, don't complain about coverage.
To be honest, the thought never crossed my mind to head down to Kildare v Longford but seeing as it appears to have been a good game I'd like to see some of it.
Yeah I was at all the games today, even the ones that were on at the same time. Would yis quit complaining.

Poor games between poor teams that no one has an interest in shouldn't be given TV coverage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RTÉ bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.

The GAA live in the moment it's all reactionary and not visionary. There are so many fundamental issues that are wrong with the County game. Provincial structures, - Kildare face the possibility of playing Carlow and losing in 2 weeks, they will have played 4 championship games and are out. Sligo have played 1 and lost and will still be in the championship longer than Kildare. It's Gombeen shit.  Financial and home advantage disparities - the elephant in the room that will not be address by tiered systems. Mayo are going bankrupt trying to keep up, it's not sustainable in Kerry either. Ploughing money into senior set-ups in short-term, gives a quick bounce, Kildare tried it and did relatively well, we focused on under-age and have done well but we can't transition across to senior because we don't have the finances to support the senior set-up and we don't even have high milage clams.

Tiered structures will only drive the wedge further and further, how long before Dublin GAA look for a bigger share of the TV money, I mean they are on TV the most, it's probably a fair call....

Oh and Kildare got 2mins 30 secs last night, in the one of the games of the weekend, Westmeath/Kerry was the other, they didn't even give that result....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 27, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/

Will the Provincial Council's give up their power? This is Ireland and politics, social sacrifice does not exist and people still vote on the parish pump.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 27, 2019, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RTÉ bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.

The GAA live in the moment it's all reactionary and not visionary. There are so many fundamental issues that are wrong with the County game. Provincial structures, - Kildare face the possibility of playing Carlow and losing in 2 weeks, they will have played 4 championship games and are out. Sligo have played 1 and lost and will still be in the championship longer than Kildare. It's Gombeen shit.  Financial and home advantage disparities - the elephant in the room that will not be address by tiered systems. Mayo are going bankrupt trying to keep up, it's not sustainable in Kerry either. Ploughing money into senior set-ups in short-term, gives a quick bounce, Kildare tried it and did relatively well, we focused on under-age and have done well but we can't transition across to senior because we don't have the finances to support the senior set-up and we don't even have high milage clams.

Tiered structures will only drive the wedge further and further, how long before Dublin GAA look for a bigger share of the TV money, I mean they are on TV the most, it's probably a fair call....

Oh and Kildare got 2mins 30 secs last night, in the one of the games of the weekend, Westmeath/Kerry was the other, they didn't even give that result....

Not only that, but how long before DublinTV rolls into town, like MUTV?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 27, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 27, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/

Will the Provincial Council's give up their power? This is Ireland and politics, social sacrifice does not exist and people still vote on the parish pump.

Everyone has a price.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 08:40:12 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-ready-to-bite-the-bullet-on-possible-championship-reform-1.3906175

Something is about to give. After another weekend where one set of results stood in stark contrast to the other, the GAA has established a new fixtures review committee in an effort to establish something a little more balanced.
This will begin with the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship, probably as early as next summer, with three different proposals for outright changed also set to be at Congress 2020.
The weekend's Leinster quarter-finals provided fresh evidence of the issue: while just two points separated Laois and Westmeath, and Longford and Kildare went to a replay, Dublin and Meath beat Louth and Carlow by a combined 7-39 to 0-19.
"When you look at the championships in the last few weeks you see great local derbies and great matches," said GAA president John Horan.
"Then you see some games a little bit with too big a gap in the result. So our hope would be that at the next Central Council meeting in June to bring forward a proposal to look at the introduction of a Tier 2 championship for those teams in Division Three and Four.
"There is an appetite out there within the organisation for us to go ahead with a Tier 2 championship. Now is the time to grab that when the appetite is out there. I think we will possibly get it through at Central Council and if we do we will call a Special Congress in September or October time to have a look at putting this forward."
Speaking after the round one qualifier draw of the All-Ireland football championship, Horan also confirmed Eddie Sullivan will chair the fixtures review committee. A former secretary general within the public service, Sullivan is also is former chairman of his club, St Sylvesters, in Malahide.

This committee are going to be given the opportunity to come in with whatever proposals, the ultimate decision will be made by the democratic process we have which is Congress.
"The Club Players Association and the GPA will each have a representative, the other members of the committee will be from other sectors, second level will have a representative, third level and then from within the organisation itself.
"Somebody said it on the radio at the weekend, there is no silver bullet for this. If it was easily solved it would have been a solved a long time ago. I would be hoping that this group will come back with proposals that will be beneficial to the clubs on the ground.
"The indication I will be giving to them when they do come together is to come in with three proposals, because there is a debate out there whether provincial championships should survive or not survive."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 28, 2019, 08:51:58 AM
I'd be worried my own County Antrim and others would disappear off the map altogether in a low profile lower tier.  However if the players are in favour, then why not go the whole hog and scrap the National League and have 3 (or 4) tiers in the Championship with meaningful promotion relegation at stake. This would leave more time for clubs and less risk of burnout for County players.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
We are getting to that point with appetite anyway Sportacus. I don't know if I've seen less appetite for the county football team and that is saying something. It allows people to talk crap about casement but we gave it away and we didn't have to close it when we didn't have an alternative yet.

Not sure where this would leave us mind you but then with the backdoor at least we have a potential winnable game. (though louth still favourites).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-time-for-gaa-to-be-bold-and-opt-for-a-new-championship-format-1.3906025

"The qualifiers have been wonderful but as a concept, their race is run. Overall, the weaker counties did not benefit from the format. The main beneficiaries were the strong counties availing of their second chance to storm to All-Irelands, as Galway and Kerry and Tyrone all did.

The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day. A good draw was getting a team slightly worse off than you. Sooner or later, they would come up against a big force and then out they would go, often with a drubbing as their closing experience.

I was listening to Colm O' Rourke, one of the architects of the format on RTÉ radio on Saturday, and he conceded that their day is done. Remember, there was a time when there was a real fear that the qualifiers would ruin everything. They didn't. But the level of interest and novelty has died away too."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 09:07:45 AM
The gap between top and bottom is too much. The commitment levels required vs the reward for about 20 odd counties is not worth it and that is being reflected by player apathy and in turn crowd apathy.

The question is will a second tier just kill football in the so called weaker counties. A lot of thought needs put into this or it will cripple the game at county level in half the country. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that a plan is required!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.

Do we really need to wait? HQ's plan will be pushed through no matter who's in favour of it.

Even if 30 counties are against it, HQ will tell us all how everyone is behind and how s great idea it is.

The GAA are becoming more like Blatter and his FIFA cronies with every passing week.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 10:21:52 AM
There are ways this could be made work if enough thought is put into it. That's an if though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 28, 2019, 10:39:09 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.

Do we really need to wait? HQ's plan will be pushed through no matter who's in favour of it.

Even if 30 counties are against it, HQ will tell us all how everyone is behind and how s great idea it is.

The GAA are becoming more like Blatter and his FIFA cronies with every passing week.
That's the fear. The GPA need to their members' views across strongly here. The players should be the dominant voice here, in my view.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 10:53:39 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 28, 2019, 10:56:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 10:53:39 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.
That's the talk. If that's the case then they need to be happy with the specific structure of it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 28, 2019, 10:59:47 AM
Time to merge the League and Championship.


Senior 1
Dublin
Donegal
Mayo
Cork
Monaghan
Roscommon
Tipperary
Fermanagh

Senior 2
Kerry
Meath
Tyrone
Clare
Cavan
Galway
Armagh
Kildare

Intermediate 1
Longford
Carlow
Down
Derry
Westmeath
Antrim
Wexford
Wicklow

Intermediate 2
Waterford
London
Laois
Louth
Offaly
Sligo
Limerick
Leitrim

Home and Away 14 games
3 Automatically relegated 3 Automatically Promoted.


Senior AI Series
Top 4 in Senior 1 and Senior 2 qualify for All-Ireland Senior Quarters. Seeded draw. Top seeds have home advantage for quarter-final and semi-final.
Final in CP

Intermediate AI Series
Top 3 in Intermediate 1 and Intermediate 3 qualify for All-Ireland Intermediate Series Top seeds straight through to semi-finals, the other 4 play a quarter-final . Seeded draw. Top seeds have home advantage for quarter-final and semi-final.

Minimum 14 games per county. Maximum 17. Finals day last Sunday in June and work back from there. Clubs have July, August, Sept and October for Championships.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 10:53:39 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.

How many of them favour it?

What about club members, all the county players, county board reps, managers, fans etc? Are they all in favour of it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 28, 2019, 12:04:51 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?

The opportunity to win a provincial title.

Quote
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

Nothing like a bit of calm perspective.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 28, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!
Which County are you from Trailer?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 28, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
Dinny, are you proposing three to be relegated from each of the senior divisions?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

What's the best teams got to do with anything? Do we want to see Dublin v Kerry in the AI final every year, just because they happen to be the best teams? Now, Cavan aren't the best team in Ireland. But should that mean it's unacceptable for them to appear in an AI final?

Any new format is snobbery. Oh we only want to see the best teams in the final. Why? Dublin Kerry, Kerry Dublin, Dublin Tyrone. I dunno about you but it tends to get very monotonous watching the same teams over and over again in the final stages. Any new format suggested won't change this.

As for meaningful games. Was Dublin Roscommon and Tyrone Roscommon meaningful games last year? 20 point margins. And that was Div 1 teams. The top 8 teams playing each other!! I don't recall any talk of Roscommon not being allowed in the Senior c'ship. But Louth and Antrim on Sunday with a similar margin of defeat, oh chuck them in tier 2!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 28, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 28, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
Dinny, are you proposing three to be relegated from each of the senior divisions?

Yes to ensure leagues remain competitive and reduce dead rubbers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
They would need to do better than they do in the hurling in terms of relegation. They have made it very difficult to get relegated with the team in the higher divisions having a few chances.

i think the McDonagh cup is ok but the league definitely has been like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 12:54:49 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 10:53:39 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.

How many of them favour it?

What about club members, all the county players, county board reps, managers, fans etc? Are they all in favour of it?
Me uncle Tom thinks it's a great idea anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Look-Up! on May 28, 2019, 01:05:53 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

What's the best teams got to do with anything? Do we want to see Dublin v Kerry in the AI final every year, just because they happen to be the best teams? Now, Cavan aren't the best team in Ireland. But should that mean it's unacceptable for them to appear in an AI final?

Any new format is snobbery. Oh we only want to see the best teams in the final. Why? Dublin Kerry, Kerry Dublin, Dublin Tyrone. I dunno about you but it tends to get very monotonous watching the same teams over and over again in the final stages. Any new format suggested won't change this.

As for meaningful games. Was Dublin Roscommon and Tyrone Roscommon meaningful games last year? 20 point margins. And that was Div 1 teams. The top 8 teams playing each other!! I don't recall any talk of Roscommon not being allowed in the Senior c'ship. But Louth and Antrim on Sunday with a similar margin of defeat, oh chuck them in tier 2!
I get what you're saying and we all can hope for a bit of romance in the Championship where a team can come from nowhere and turn the tables but that day is well and truely gone unfortunately. If a county is really serious about vast improvement then it has to come in baby steps over a longer period of time. There is no more one season wonders. I think a tiered championship offers that for counties. Get competitive in your tier, then try win it, then get competitive in next tier. I do get the opposition of course. Media will only pay the lower tiers lip service. Live coverage will tend to be top tier centric. ATM the Sunday game is not interested in smaller counties and will rerun the big game they showed live earlier. But hopefully that will change. As you said the AI series is boring and predictable and looks like getting worse so the new top tier will still have that problem. A lower tier will still have counties of a very high standard and would be very unpredictable as most counties fortunes can vary drastically from year to year. I think for the neutrals, if marketed correctly, backed properly by the GAA and with equal media coverage these competitions could be more appealing.
It's hard to know what to do with the provincials in that setup. Look, turkeys don't vote for christmas so there's no way provincial counties would allow the provincial championships to be scrapped as that would leave the councils obsolete. They would need certain assurances but I think it would be still good to keep the provincials. It's another cup up for grabs and keeps local rivalries going. Would be a problem for fixture congestion though. Might have to have 3 tiers in Championship and/or an extra league division. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 01:16:14 PM
Presently at Senior Inter County there are 8 NFL weekends,  4 Provincial Championship weekends and 9 All Ireland weekends.
A tiered structure (16/8/8) would use *7 Weekends if played with Group stages or just  *5 if straight knockout .

Allowing the Inter/Junior Finals to have a weekend all to themselves.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 01:52:01 PM
I don't see any point in keeping provincials. Say, Armagh v Cavan semi in Ulster. Are we going to go full pelt to get to a meaningless Ulster final when we have our first game in 3/4 weeks in the championship proper? This half-arsed approach to winning already exists in the league, and to a certain extent in the provincials as it is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties can't?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties can't?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

You're right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why weren't they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah they're just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA won't be helping them do anything about it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties can't?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

You're right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why weren't they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah they're just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA won't be helping them do anything about it.

Ah, it's good to see there are some lads with a bit of sense on this board! The tiered system is being put in place to hide away the lesser counties. Out of site of of mind. Out of mind and then there are no worries about embarrassing scoreline and no worries about having to finance such counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on May 28, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
Ah, it's good to see there are some lads with a bit of sense on this board! The tiered system is being put in place to hide away the lesser counties. Out of site of of mind. Out of mind and then there are no worries about embarrassing scoreline and no worries about having to finance such counties.

This is the nail on the head right here. 

We have had many hammerings down the years and never felt the need to make such a move.  This is driven by journalists and mouthpieces on the Sunday Game saying things because they like the sound of their own voice.  They will chop and change at the championship until they kill the goose that laid the golden egg.  It started with the qualifiers, then it was the Super 8s, now this. 

I really worry about who is advising the direction of travel in Croke Park - it's like Animal Farm. All animals are equal; some are more equal than others.
Do we not need a Congress to make such changes.   

What the GAA really need to do, is introduce Financial Fair Play rules.  The odds are stacked against the weaker counties and the playing field must be evened out. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 03:01:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties can't?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

You're right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why weren't they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah they're just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA won't be helping them do anything about it.
Antrim is a great example, huge potential in terms of population and while there is some work going on it's nowhere near enough and nothing compared to the money pumped into Dublin GAA. The football team is struggling and the hurlers haven't reached the level they were once at, probably one of the few counties though to win an All Ireland club at both senior football and hurling in the last ten years? So it's not like the club scene is particularly weak. Having Casement Park, an institute of Ulster football and hurling left to rot wouldn't happen in Kerry, Mayo or Tyrone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on May 28, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on May 28, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc

Because it is Club level.

Why not try in turn to help counties to get up a level?

Why decide Dublin needed funding to help them be stronger and stop there?

The problems that currently exist with weaker counties will continue to be the problems after a tiered system. Putting them into a lower tier and hiding them away will only sort things out for the Strong Counties.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Kickham csc on May 28, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on May 28, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc

Because it is Club level.

Why not try in turn to help counties to get up a level?

Why decide Dublin needed funding to help them be stronger and stop there?

The problems that currently exist with weaker counties will continue to be the problems after a tiered system. Putting them into a lower tier and hiding them away will only sort things out for the Strong Counties.

That's all will happen

With a tiered system, the GAA will be in a position to charge more to the TV companies to cover the top tier games.

And the bottom tier will just chug along.

And the gap will get bigger and bigger.

Shameful.

County football is representative football. If there is a gap in standards then the GAA should be setting up strategies to release funding.

If we go with the 2 tier proposal, I propose that 75% of centrally released development funding should go to the teams in Tier 2.

And like club football, it is always harder for teams at the top of div 2 to win and get promoted, than a team who are 4/5 from the bottom to avoid regulation.

Just a bad bad idea

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 03:35:42 PM
It's not just about funding - it's how it's managed / channeled etc. There are many county boards who couldn't be trusted with a load of funding. That is not to say they would be underhand with it but they just wouldn't know what to do with it or wouldn't do a good job with it. Whatever you say about Dublin they have put good systems in place so as the money is well used. I wouldn't be so sure that would happen everywhere.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 04:04:17 PM
When a revamp is agreed on, weaker counties (in particular) are accepting the GAA's failures as regards funding. Therefore, letting HQ off the hook.

Antrim (Belfast particularly) should have been funded years ago. If Antrim delegates/co board vote for a two tier system, they'll be accepting that their situation is all their own fault, rather than HQ's lack of funding.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 04:23:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
They would need to do better than they do in the hurling in terms of relegation. They have made it very difficult to get relegated with the team in the higher divisions having a few chances.

i think the McDonagh cup is ok but the league definitely has been like that.
Kevin McStay suggested 20,6 ,6 with 4 groups of 5 in the 20 and one promotion each way between the tiers
And the 3 finals on the same day in September

20 would give D2 and half of D3 the chance to improve by mixing with the better teams
More games would benefit everyone
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 05:25:11 PM
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

You're obviously (a) a bit thick or (b) unable to read. If you're trying to compare carlow, fermanagh, leitrim footballers with la lakers or carlton. The teams I'm talking about have played at the same tier for over 100 years and have never come close to winning anything. The odd win here and there is as good as it gets. Why not have 3 tiers with promotion/relegation so that 6 counties can have the excitement of an all ireland final with 3 counties emerging champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.

But the game has changed. It's no longer about the best players winning the AI. Systems, S&C, yoga, nutritionists, analysis, training weekends is all part of it now. Plus coaching/facilities from an early age helps massively too. The top players are all but paid and looked after better than ever. Time off, recovery, sponsored cars etc etc. The idea of players being looked after years ago was a shower and a hot dinner after training. The more rural counties are at a loss geographically with college, commuting etc, and with fewer jobs.

More than ever results are determined by the county setup and their facilities and back room teams. It's distespectful to say Leitrim lads, commuting from Dublin for training, arriving having drove 2 hours and do same after training. Whereas Dublin could walk to training. Leitrim population is low, and it's insulting to suggest they should just get the finger out, try harder, and you'll get promotion to the top table.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: playwiththewind1st on May 28, 2019, 07:31:24 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 05:25:11 PM
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.

Another £26 million in a sports holdall should cover it..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 07:46:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

I agree with this and i'm from Antrim. I don't know why Antrim keeps coming up in this. It has a big city in it and Dublin is a big city too. That is really where the comparison ends. There are more rural clubs than city clubs in Antrim and arguably there are too many clubs in the city too.(and I have heard more city than country people say that).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!
You mean comparing gaa to most other sports were majority of teams have little chance of winning but still like the chance to compete.

Unlike your well thought out enemy of any Irish person who ever lived and must be crushed argument.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 07:48:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.
Does that not tell you something? A county containing Ireland’s second city is struggling and has been for decades. Too much potential and it isn’t being harnessed
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 05:25:11 PM
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.
Where did anyone say this?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 07:56:18 PM
In addition various articles say that Antrim have 108 affiliated clubs.

34 clubs play adult men's football. It's not that many compared to stats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 28, 2019, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!
You mean comparing gaa to most other sports were majority of teams have little chance of winning but still like the chance to compete.

Unlike your well thought out enemy of any Irish person who ever lived and must be crushed argument.

The GAA has it's own unique intricacies. It's not professional for a start and it's greatest strength is it's parochial nature. Comparing it to any professional sporting system is stupid. It's needs a tiered system with promotion and relegation. Anyone with any understanding of competitive sport knows this. Doing nothing is not an option.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 08:44:23 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

That's what I would suggest. Open draw, first round 2 legs. Knockout after that. Every team gets a home game. And even if Leitrim drew Dublin, how often do the AI champions come to town?

Look at FA Cup the teams that have made the semis or final over the last 30 years or so. Millwall, Chesterfield, Wycombe, Barnsley, Cardiff, Etc etc.

Plus, Dublin Kerry first round, that's one of the big guns gone. Great opportunity for progression for lesser teams. Players would really buy into it knowing they have a chance of doing something.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on May 28, 2019, 08:51:16 PM
Might as well switch the provincial cup competitions to Feb and March altogether, with a back-door for Rd 1 losers within each province.   4 provincial winners play for the Spring Cup.

Run the 4 divisions of leagues mid-May to end of June.  Top 4 in each division into semi-finals.  Normal promotion and relegation.  Winner of Div 1 gets Sam Maguire.  All done by August Bank Holiday.   So four divisions equals four tiers.  Work your way up/down each year based on your performance.

County Championships August to mid-October.  Club finals in December.  Plenty summer football for everyone - club and county players.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 10:28:13 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game

Some right loonys on here. Dublin v antrim or london over 2 legs. Kerry v leitrim. When the first leg has been won by 25 points plus how many will go to see the return leg. Do some of you lads come from counties where the clubs have just one championship with an open draw?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on May 28, 2019, 10:33:26 PM
2 legs??? So weaker counties could get pasted by the same team twice. Two tier hammerings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 28, 2019, 10:28:13 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game

Some right loonys on here. Dublin v antrim or london over 2 legs. Kerry v leitrim. When the first leg has been won by 25 points plus how many will go to see the return leg. Do some of you lads come from counties where the clubs have just one championship with an open draw?

2018 Super 8's:

Tyrone 4-24 Roscommon 2-12 - an 18 point win. And that was a neutral venue!

Roscommon were a top 8 team having won Div 2 last spring.

If that was the first leg, how many would go to the second? It doesn't necessarily have to be Kerry Leitrim for it to be a stuffing match. Div 1 teams are doing it to each other.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Kickham csc on May 30, 2019, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

I would seed it.

That means you league performance and prov championship performance influence your All Ireland draw.

If you look at this year, Derry nearly pulled off a shock against Tyrone, Div 1 'v' Div 4, and there are always going to be bad hammerings.

But this is a competitive sport. The only way to improve your performance is via coaching and player management.

By creating a second tier, CP will have pulled a fast one, where the calls for development funds to a div 4 county (Antrim) can be largely ignored or managed with a token effort.

All the media will focus on Div 1 & 2, and like hurling, where it is in a healthy state in about 8 - 10 counties, nobody cares, because the top championship will be producing great games

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 30, 2019, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2019, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

I would seed it.

That means you league performance and prov championship performance influence your All Ireland draw.

If you look at this year, Derry nearly pulled off a shock against Tyrone, Div 1 'v' Div 4, and there are always going to be bad hammerings.

But this is a competitive sport. The only way to improve your performance is via coaching and player management.

By creating a second tier, CP will have pulled a fast one, where the calls for development funds to a div 4 county (Antrim) can be largely ignored or managed with a token effort.

All the media will focus on Div 1 & 2, and like hurling, where it is in a healthy state in about 8 - 10 counties, nobody cares, because the top championship will be producing great games


That's it in a nutshell.

I'd imagine TV money will become an issue too. Counties will want a slice of the pie, like Premier League clubs. The top counties will get stronger and the lower teams will get worse. When that happens, the GAA will have created an uncontrollable beast. They've already done it with Dublin. They must be so proud.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 01:46:51 PM
Antrim, Antrim, Antrim! That great bastion of the GAA. Legendary champions with 100s of inter county football titles! They've just fallen on hard times. A sleeping giant! Oh wait! That's right! They've no pedigree, absolutely none! And a CB that's is renowned for its amateur approach to everything they do! Lets get real here. Funding so called tier 2 or 3 counties is all well and good but some of them don't deserve brass!! Why would anyone in any position of authority even contemplate giving the Antrim CB any money?

Tier the championship, fund tier 2 and 3 counties yes, but only those that want to help themselves. Dublin put their house in order and benefit from the funding because of it, not the other way around.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time I've asked).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 30, 2019, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time I've asked).

Antrim, I bet :D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time I've asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Let's get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years it's the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. It's a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 30, 2019, 06:35:05 PM
i said best of 3  best of  3 means 1st to win 2 games advances if it goes to a 3rd game play it on a neutral site  with best of 3 even if a team gets  a hammering first game they can still win 2nd game and take the game to a 3rd game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
In fairness the manner that Cavan,Roscommon players and supporters celebrated their wins would suggest it was more than a mild surprise.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 30, 2019, 06:39:03 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Let's get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years it's the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. It's a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.
There are clearly differing views on this among GAA people.

Let's not pretend that it's a "no-brainer". If it was a no-brainer we wouldn't be having the discussion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Let's get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years it's the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. It's a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 30, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Let's get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years it's the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. It's a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.

And look at how it's surpassed the championship for excitement the last few years. Lots of good competitive games at all levels. The bonus being that 4 teams get to celebrate a league win and 8 teams get to play in a final and get promotion. With a 3 tier championship the players and supporters from 6 counties would get the chance to look forward to an all ireland final with 3 teams celebrating at the end. At this stage we can realistically write off the chances of 28 or 29 teams and that's not going to change for most of those teams for the next 20 years. Hence the player drop out being so high in teams outside the top 5 or 6.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: irish345 on May 30, 2019, 06:35:05 PM
i said best of 3  best of  3 means 1st to win 2 games advances if it goes to a 3rd game play it on a neutral site  with best of 3 even if a team gets  a hammering first game they can still win 2nd game and take the game to a 3rd game

Jesus you're still persisting with this stupid idea. Take a lie down. You're talking like someone who's not right in the head.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Let's get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years it's the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. It's a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.

And look at how it's surpassed the championship for excitement the last few years. Lots of good competitive games at all levels. The bonus being that 4 teams get to celebrate a league win and 8 teams get to play in a final and get promotion. With a 3 tier championship the players and supporters from 6 counties would get the chance to look forward to an all ireland final with 3 teams celebrating at the end. At this stage we can realistically write off the chances of 28 or 29 teams and that's not going to change for most of those teams for the next 20 years. Hence the player drop out being so high in teams outside the top 5 or 6.

What we need is the league made more important and to capture the imagination of all GAA followers.   Attendances has lowered in recent years for the league and TV viewers wouldn't be high either and I can imagine sponsorship money would be tiny compared to the championship. As it stands reaching a provincial final carries more value and interest among players and supporters than winning a Div 2,3 or 4 league title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 30, 2019, 08:46:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.

Both of which won the square root of f**k all until less than 20 years ago.

Nice of you to seek to deny the opportunity to other counties via strangling their budgets.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
In fairness the manner that Cavan,Roscommon players and supporters celebrated their wins would suggest it was more than a mild surprise.
More to do with relief at  ending   long losing streaks and of course putting one over on smelly neighbours.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:36 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 31, 2019, 01:34:00 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time I've asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
The relevance is that people from different counties will have different perspectives on this.  People from a current 'weaker' County might have a genuine concern that a tiered system will see their County disappear off the map while all the focus is on the Top Tier.  They're not looking sympathy but could do without people from the current top tier dismissing that view.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: irish345 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:36 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 09:57:06 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: irish345 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:36 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
Munster and Leinster are processions
The system is banjaxed
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 10:01:04 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on May 30, 2019, 08:46:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.

Both of which won the square root of f**k all until less than 20 years ago.

Nice of you to seek to deny the opportunity to other counties via strangling their budgets.

Go on. Explain how a second tier would strangle a counties budget?
And don't start talking shite about games not on TV and people not going to them. I was at the Tyrone Antrim game, an USFC quater final and if there was 500 Antrim supporters that was the height of it.

If you're good enough you'll be in the top tier. End of story.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on May 31, 2019, 01:34:00 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time I've asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
The relevance is that people from different counties will have different perspectives on this.  People from a current 'weaker' County might have a genuine concern that a tiered system will see their County disappear off the map while all the focus is on the Top Tier.  They're not looking sympathy but could do without people from the current top tier dismissing that view.

They're already off the map. No one is going to the games. Catch a grip. Why in the name of everything that is holy would anyone want to persist with what we have now? Explain to me how it's working for Antrim or Leitrim or London or Waterford.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 10:12:43 AM
Kevin McStay

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-time-for-gaa-to-be-bold-and-opt-for-a-new-championship-format-1.3906025

"The April experiment has not worked. The qualifiers have been wonderful but as a concept, their race is run. Overall, the weaker counties did not benefit from the format. The main beneficiaries were the strong counties availing of their second chance to storm to All-Irelands, as Galway and Kerry and Tyrone all did.
The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day. A good draw was getting a team slightly worse off than you. Sooner or later, they would come up against a big force and then out they would go, often with a drubbing as their closing experience.
I was listening to Colm O' Rourke, one of the architects of the format on RTÉ radio on Saturday, and he conceded that their day is done. Remember, there was a time when there was a real fear that the qualifiers would ruin everything. They didn't. But the level of interest and novelty has died away too."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 10:15:45 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 10:03:59 AM
Explain to me how it's working for Antrim or Leitrim or London or Waterford.
Oddly enough Leitrim under Terry Hyland have had an excellent 2019 so far, bar their championship hammering by Roscommon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 10:17:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 10:12:43 AM
Kevin McStay

The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day.

McStay likes that "horrible" line. He used it to describe Tyrone's win over his own county in a qualifier in 2008. He later had to eat his words.  He's wrong here too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:14:02 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:14:02 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.

He did in the same article


"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice – home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their
strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice – home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:53:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:14:02 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.

In fairness any county that has to depend on a local chemists for part of their jersey sponsorship is going to struggle against stronger counties in the championship, regardless of format.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice – home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus
The main point is that change is inevitable

Groups of 5 would mean more games for middle ranked counties. Say what you like about Ros and Cavan but exposure to D1 every 2 years has stood to them
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
Thanks Seafóidín for posting the rest of the article.
If you have 3 All Ireland Finals the same day about 30,000 sacred cows will have to give up their AI tickets.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 12:06:49 PM

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 12:06:49 PM

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.


Adapt or die. That's the choice. Fans are voting with their feet. Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 31, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice – home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

Imagine Dublin playing the 20th best. More hidings dished out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 31, 2019, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 31, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice – home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

Imagine Dublin playing the 20th best. More hidings dished out.
And they don't meet anyone outside the top 10 now?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 31, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 12:06:49 PM

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.

Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM

The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.
How many months should be given over to County teams to the detriment of clubs?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:40:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 31, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
How many months should be given over to County teams to the detriment of clubs?
That's a loaded question. There's no need for any month to be given over exclusively to county games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 02:05:09 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

You know it all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 02:05:09 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

You know it all.

I know
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 31, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

I'm all for change, lets start changing the amount of funding going to Dublin. Lets Change the amount of home games Dublin get. I'm not against change!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 31, 2019, 03:29:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: irish345 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:36 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
As would Armagh.

I'm all for change myself, change back to straight knock out provincial and All Ireland series
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 03:40:09 PM
No!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on May 31, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 05:15:10 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
The change will bury football completely in half the country. The change has been tried and tested in the form of the Tommy Murphy Cup. There is no appetite for it. Nobody wants to go and watch it. Any decent players from the weaker counties will flock to America every summer rather that play in some 2 bit forgotten about competition.
Tiers work well in club football, ladies football, + many other sports, and are just as passionately contested as senior games. But it needs to be properly supported, the obvious way is for the 2nd tier final to precede the senior final. Time for the minor final to move
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 06:43:50 PM
8 "ballbag" Counties will be out of action from 8/9 June.
Not a bad oul way of "hiding the crap teams" away. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 07:39:24 PM
Your one grumpy hoore.
Probably used to getting your own way ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 07:44:00 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 05:15:10 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
The change will bury football completely in half the country. The change has been tried and tested in the form of the Tommy Murphy Cup. There is no appetite for it. Nobody wants to go and watch it. Any decent players from the weaker counties will flock to America every summer rather that play in some 2 bit forgotten about competition.

A lot of county players from the weaker counties are already heading to the usa for the summer and have left their county panels. Longford had one of their best players leave the panel after the league for that reason. He obviously stays and plays in the league where it is competitive and his team have a chance to compete. He knows the championship is a waste of time. 2 or 3 games and then you're out, if that's been your lot for the last 60/70 years why would it change now. Getting a lucky draw in the playoffs and winning a game only delays the inevitable. By the middle of june half the counties will be out of the championship and most years it's roughly the same counties. What have these counties got to lose from a tiered championship. The current system doesn't meet their needs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 08:25:06 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 07:51:37 PM
Competing in and maybe even winning a competition that nobody gives one toss about isn't going to inspire anyone either. See Tommy Murphy Cup. What have they got to lose? Interest. Support. Commitment. The county game will be redundant for them as all eyes, even those of the kids in their own county will be on the real competition.

Nice anecdote about the Longford player. Was the opportunity on the table for him to head away during the league or did you make up why he "obviously stays"?

That "anecdote " was on the Sunday game. Club players put a huge value on intermediate and junior championships. No reason why county players wouldn't do the same. As it stands championship is already an irrelevance for about 15 counties or more and it will continue like that unless the structures change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 08:45:32 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 08:33:30 PM
You've suggested that he "obviously" stayed for the league as it is competitive. That's not obvious to me. Indeed, it's likely that American clubs weren't looking him from February to April and that's why he was still at home.
Clubs are entirely different to county. You must realise that?
We are going back to a system that failed so badly 10 years ago that we scrapped it. And for what?

He is only one case. Derry have 2 players who opted out of the championship panel but played in the league. The league has been great for a number of years with lots of competitive games. Championship is just a farce especially the early games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 31, 2019, 10:59:21 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 09:04:34 PM
If it's a farce because some teams are much better than others, then it is a farce to the very top. Dublin walk through almost every team (if not every team). There are teams at the business end of the championship getting blitzed by Tyrone.

Gaelic football has problems. Antrim & Louth getting annihilated in the early rounds of the championship by the 2 best teams in the country is NOT a major one. You get mismatches in the early rounds of most sports competitions. The fact that people are switching off games that are supposed to be the thick of the championship between the good teams is the real issue threatening the GAA.

But sure, cut the bottom 8 adrift and the championship will be a better competition.

+1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 10:59:40 PM
It's clear alot of posters onthis thread have no idea of the sacrifice for training and gym work to be an inter county player.

There's f**k all tv/media coverage for counites in earlier rounds of the the championship yet this is used as an argument against tiered championship.

Players expected to slog it out training over winter to enter a competition they cant win and then enter qualifiers only to be beaten by an All Ireland contender.

The GAA today reminds me of WWI stories. Lions led by donkeys. You have players giving incredible commitment in training/matches yet orginisational decisons are made by old committee men who have no connection to modern day football and haven't kicked a ball in decades
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the "baby pool, God help yas" competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:23:39 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:19:09 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the "baby pool, God help yas" competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
I'd say a lot of players would rather return to the club and put the effort in there rather than a wee shield with the county having given up half their lives.
I think people underestimate how the thought/dream of a bit of a run in THE championship can motivate someone.
If you're in the bum competition from the start, would ya really bother putting your 21-28 year old life on hold? The Tommy Murphy Cup tells us you wouldn't.
In my experience thats  just not true. Specifically in recent years. Players want to represent their county but they want to win as well. No chance of success and they've no interest. If they had a genuine chance of winning a trophy for the county they would commit
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 31, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
In any sports competition though you will always get a reasonable number of teams who just won't have a chance of winning. As hs says If you put say ten in the top tier then really only Dublin will win, maybe just maybe the odd year Tyrone or Kerry  or someone might too, but it's the same principle as now. Plenty of teams can't win the competition.

You could apply this to hurling championship, champions league, premier league, tennis majors, golf majors or any sport.

To me the bigger problem is getting hammered with the bigger gaps and going in with no chance. The gap just keeps widening between the top and bottom and the football is like the hurling used to be. The commitment is too great and the reward for the investment just isn't worth it. In "lesser" counties all you read about is dropouts these days. Everyone wants to see the best players playing for their counties and that needs addressed. I am from a "lesser" county and when growing up it was always seen as the dream to play for the county whereas now it just doesn't feel like it's like this in so many counties.

If tiered championship fixes that then it's the answer. Who knows if it would though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 12:21:25 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the "baby pool, God help yas" competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
The reason a "Tier 2 " is currently on the table is because a lot of players in the weaker Counties want it.
A few years ago they via the GPA didn't want it so it didn't get to Congress (2015??)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 01, 2019, 12:24:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 12:21:25 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the "baby pool, God help yas" competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
The reason a "Tier 2 " is currently on the table is because a lot of players in the weaker Counties want it.
A few years ago they via the GPA didn't want it so it didn't get to Congress (2015??)
I wouldn't dispute that some of the players in the weaker counties want it, but the cynic in me doubts very much it's the reason it's on the table.

I wonder if they want back in after a few years will they put it back on the table.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 12:41:21 AM
Don't know.
Can't foretell the future (unlike some around here :D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 01, 2019, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything. Not factual
Weaker counties are not on TV Right now, probably. Otherwise, not factual
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams Not fatual
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.From the sun?

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.
Facts?

Well I'm glad you put all those silly arguments to bed. Once everyone can manage to just not take you seriously, your nonsense adds a bit of colour to the board.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 01, 2019, 11:25:42 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 06:19:13 PM

This is not promoting Gaelic football. It is an exercise in hiding the faults.

Probably the most accurate comment on this thread IMO.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:44:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:10:56 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that. If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Sometimes you get left behind by the change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 05:18:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:44:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.

So you reckon every game will be edge of the seat stuff? Every single one?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 06:43:38 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Where are they getting this higher profile? I don't see it anywhere.

The winning thing to me is a misnomer. Split the football into 3 with , for arguments sake, ten teams in senior then still only one of two or three teams will win it. The rest will have no chance.

Take division one and say Monaghan. They'd make a top tier but have no chance of winning it. You do a middle tier and say put Louth in it again no chance.

I still believe it should be split but the chances of winning thing is a nonsense. You'll give about four , five or six more teams a chance of winning something but the rest not so much.

More teams might get further etc and that would be beneficial , very beneficial, but not that many more will have a chance of winning.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 07:50:30 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 06:43:38 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Where are they getting this higher profile? I don't see it anywhere.

The winning thing to me is a misnomer. Split the football into 3 with , for arguments sake, ten teams in senior then still only one of two or three teams will win it. The rest will have no chance.

Take division one and say Monaghan. They'd make a top tier but have no chance of winning it. You do a middle tier and say put Louth in it again no chance.

I still believe it should be split but the chances of winning thing is a nonsense. You'll give about four , five or six more teams a chance of winning something but the rest not so much.

More teams might get further etc and that would be beneficial , very beneficial, but not that many more will have a chance of winning.

If four or 5 teams in each tier have a chance of winning that means around 15 teams have genuine hopes of winning something which is much better than the way ot is currently. People saying stuffings will still happen are correct but they will mainly be unpredictable stuffings. Tipperary beat waterford well in the hurling but nobody could have foreseen such a gap between the teams and waterford went into the game with hopes of winning. Did anyone here think louth could get close to dublin or antrim close to tyrone. Those were utterly predictable stuffings which did no good for either of the teams or any spectators.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 07:52:16 PM
The Munster Semi Finals not doing much for those if us who want the Provincials retained :-\
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
I don't think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I don't see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 05:18:47 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:44:20 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.

So you reckon every game will be edge of the seat stuff? Every single one?

No. And that's not the point. But teams in their grade will have a realistic chance of winning. If you don't get that, you cannot be helped.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
I don't think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I don't see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.

Bought the paper today and I see Tyrone are playing Louth. Dunno what the result was but I know this was the fixture.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 08:00:26 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
I don't think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I don't see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.

Every monday in the irish news the matches are given a short report with scorers etc. There are also interviews occasionally with players and managers before matches especially towards the latter end of competitions. I never used to see those teams get sny coverage whatsoever.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Ah ok. I don't buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa don't do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Ah ok. I don't buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa don't do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

This is it in a nut shell. "I don't follow hurling but I'll complain about the lack of coverage." God give me strength.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 09:52:20 PM
I do follow hurling but don't buy the Irish news. That ok?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Ah ok. I don't buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa don't do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

I agree with you that rte or tg4 and gaa should do more for those competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 02, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Ah ok. I don't buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa don't do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

I agree with you that rte or tg4 and gaa should do more for those competitions.

Tyrone V Louth in Football would hardly be on TV why would you want the Hurling on TV? People need to get real here. Putting games on TV for the craic is not an option. It doesn't happen now and won't happen in a future tiered competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 02, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 07:52:16 PM
The Munster Semi Finals not doing much for those if us who want the Provincials retained :-\
Mmm, you're right but Cork v Limerick was also a potential match-up in the proposed new Tier 2 if I'm not mistaken? Similarly, Clare v Kerry was a Tier 1 game. So what does this prove? Nothing, we didn't already know.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 02, 2019, 10:59:02 AM
Cork wouldn't be in it now having reached a Provincial Final.
I think lumping D3 and 4 into it is too crude and you could potentially have a Cork v Down Final which would mean nothing to either team or supporters.
At least the likes of Leitrim, Carlow etc getting to a National Final might generate some excitement e.g Leitrim brought up to 10k to Croke Park for a D4 Final.
If the present proposals go ahead I suggest it be limited to the bottom 6 in D4 and the bottom 4 in D3 plus the winners get into the Qualifiers at an appropriate round.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 12:10:10 PM
The Joe McDonagh really works. I think looking at four tiers rather than three would be the way to go. The margins in it are tiny. Lose one week you could be relegated or win and you're in with a chance of winning the thing.

Before it the Christy ring had too broad a range of abilities with som teams having no chance and really wasn't that great. If they are to do anything with the football they should learn from that.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 12:55:57 PM
It's only been going a couple of years. I definitely think the interest has improved(we couldn't compete against what we were playing against top level and were far too good for all bar one or two in the ring). Standard too soon to tell but the Christy ring was detrimental to the standards because the gap between top and bottom was so big.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 02, 2019, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.

20 point win for Limerick today in the hurling tier 1 competition 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 02, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on June 02, 2019, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Brit's that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you don't learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never would've been heard off years ago. At times you wouldn't have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. That's down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we can't have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.

20 point win for Limerick today in the hurling tier 1 competition

I think we all agree that there'll always be stuffings. The point is how many people would've bet on Waterford to lose by 20. They are obviously underachieving or had a really bad day. We all would've been happy to bet on Tyrone or Dublin to win by more than single figures v Antrim and Louth. Those games were pointless and predictable. Even with tiers there will be occasional big defeats. They generally won't be predictable though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: MayoBuck on June 02, 2019, 05:03:13 PM
The football championship has been far better than the hurling so far. The football leagues were also miles better than the hurling equivalent. The difference is the hurling pundits will never criticise their sport. Unlike the football pundits who keep pushing the 2nd/3rd tier agenda which makes the general public think there is nothing positive going on in the sport.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
It's hard to know as we get to see so little of it! I love the hurling but there is a bit of a Munster championship overload.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 02, 2019, 05:44:26 PM
Looks like the Golden Goose Munster Championship has had a bit of a wobbly! You'd be thinking there'd be Waterford and Clare supporters that will not be venturing out the next day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: MayoBuck on June 02, 2019, 05:50:51 PM
Armagh v Cavan sounds like a classic on the radio as well!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 02, 2019, 09:19:36 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
It's hard to know as we get to see so little of it! I love the hurling but there is a bit of a Munster championship overload.

Yeah you really can have too much of a good thing. They're really flogging the Munster championship to death at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 02, 2019, 10:35:19 PM
Armagh Cavan nail biter today, great.  Antrim have been in an Ulster Final more recently than either.  The answer for Counties like Antrim is to get their house in order, not drop out of the competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 03, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
From the INDO.

Quote

There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RTÉ Radio.

"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 03, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on June 03, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
From the INDO.

Quote

There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RTÉ Radio.

"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?


What's this guys point? Sure this is exactly what's happening at the minute.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 03, 2019, 09:06:18 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

Likely because he thinks Derry will be in the lower tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, in front of poor crowds with little to no interest. Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately.
It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 01:32:46 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, in front of poor crowds with little to no interest. Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately.
It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

The Championship has been like this since day dot.  Weaker teams have been dumped out routinely by stronger teams.  The quality and competitiveness should improve as the competition progresses.  Unseeded players don't win often in the first round of Wimbledon (some don't even win a game or a set) against the best players.  However, you do get the odd upset and that's what the underdogs live for. 

I would make several changes though to the existing system.  Firstly, I would seed the teams based on league performance both in the provincial championship and the qualifiers.  We shouldn't really have a situation where weaker teams (like London in 2013) reach the provincial final due to being on the easy side of the draw, while Roscommon, Mayo and Galway knock eachother out.  Same for the qualifiers; it is wrong to have two All-Ireland contenders knocked out in the first round and finding themselves pitted against each other in the first round of the qualifiers, while say Wicklow progresses because they beat London.

In Leinster for example, there shouldn't be an open draw (I know it's not open at the moment, but can see no sense in putting Meath in the preliminary round).  The four highest ranked teams in the league shouldn't enter the competition until the QF stage.  The other six teams can play-off for the right to get through - again the Leinster preliminary round should be seeded with the Top 4 ranked teams in the league playing the bottom four ranked teams (top playing bottom, second playing second last, third playing 3rd last). That would at least mean that the teams coming into to play in quarter finals would at least be there on some kind of merit. 

Secondly, I would change the qualifier system to ensure that the point at which you enter the qualifiers is based not on the stage you reach in your provincial championship, but based on the number of games you have won in your province.

Teams that lose their first game should go into the 1st round of the qualifiers.   
Teams that win one game and lose one game in their province, should go into the 2nd round of the qualifiers.
Teams that win two games and lose one game should go into the 3rd round of the qualifiers

This would mean that Cork, who are now in a Munster Final, by virtue of hammering Limerick, should join the second round of the qualifiers if they lose to Kerry. This would reward a team like Limerick who if they made a Munster Final this year would have done so by beating Tipp and Cork.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.


Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 02:01:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?

Tiering isn't about investing in weaker teams, it's about investing more in the stronger teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.


Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

They are in hurling. What's the difference? I'm not short sighted enough to think Tyrone will always dine at the top table. Look at Armagh Down, Meath, Cork etc.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 02:01:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?

Tiering isn't about investing in weaker teams, it's about investing more in the stronger teams.

I disagree but even if that turns out to be true, nobody is investing in weaker teams at the minute, so what have they got to lose?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 04, 2019, 02:24:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM

Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

They are in hurling. What's the difference? I'm not short sighted enough to think Tyrone will always dine at the top table. Look at Armagh Down, Meath, Cork etc.

Maybe fix the ills of the Tyrone hurlers before you drag half the football counties in Ireland down to their level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 02:50:39 PM
Jasus Trailer must have great powers  :o
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:57:54 PM
Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 03:16:58 PM
Quote from: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.




Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

Fully agree FivePoints! Although you mightn't like what I have said above about seeding.  But at least seeding isn't the same as saying "f**k off and die" which is effectively what tiering is about - out of sight - out of mind.  How much coverage has the media given to the McDonagh Cup, the Ring Cup, Rackard Cup etc?  This isn't about an agenda for weaker counties, its about a media agenda. 

Trailer, you need to be careful in what they wish for.  Before 1986 Tyrone had never been in an AIF and only won 4 Ulsters - it is not impossible that when Mickey goes, there could be a serious readjustment that the county will struggle with.  As we have seen with Derry, Armagh, Down, Meath, Cork and Offaly, once strong counties can suffer from a serious fall from grace and in a province like Ulster, its all the more possible. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:57:54 PM
Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers  ;)

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 04, 2019, 03:20:49 PM
Funny you mention it APM  - the GAA has started showing McDonagh cup games live on GAA now though up until now showed nothing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 04, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:57:54 PM
Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers  ;)

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly

A good argument might be that for over 100 years we have had over a dozen or so counties whose season has been over by May or June having had 1 or 2 matches (some might even get 3 now with the back door). It's not enough to just say these counties need to get their act together. A tiered system will give them the hope of a competition that they can progress and go deep in. As opposed to playing in matches where they go in hoping to keep the margin to single figures. The posters on here seem to think that players need to have the prospect of playing one of the glamour teams. Those games just aren't appealing any more. Tyrone are one of the best supported teams around and their game v Antrim had 5,000 at it. The question is would the Antrim players prefer to be hammered in games like that or play in a junior championship where they have a decent chance of winning, building confidence and progressing up to an intermediate championship. My opinion is that they would prefer the latter.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 04, 2019, 03:20:49 PM
Funny you mention it APM  - the GAA has started showing McDonagh cup games live on GAA now though up until now showed nothing.

Curse of the commentator!! :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 04:06:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 04, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 02:57:54 PM
Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers  ;)

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly

A good argument might be that for over 100 years we have had over a dozen or so counties whose season has been over by May or June having had 1 or 2 matches (some might even get 3 now with the back door). It's not enough to just say these counties need to get their act together. A tiered system will give them the hope of a competition that they can progress and go deep in. As opposed to playing in matches where they go in hoping to keep the margin to single figures. The posters on here seem to think that players need to have the prospect of playing one of the glamour teams. Those games just aren't appealing any more. Tyrone are one of the best supported teams around and their game v Antrim had 5,000 at it. The question is would the Antrim players prefer to be hammered in games like that or play in a junior championship where they have a decent chance of winning, building confidence and progressing up to an intermediate championship. My opinion is that they would prefer the latter.

I see you have used the example of a 1 sided match as a reason for introducing tiering, as I said earlier a la Joe Brolly.

Given that you refuse to recognise that tiers might in fact introduce further issue into football I will address the points you did raise.

Will tiers address the issue of uneven contests, will it assure us that all teams will finish within a point of each other in all the games, or how much do you think would be an acceptable level of beating? Will all the games be exciting TV friendly games? [not that they will get within a beagle's gowl of being on TV of course].

If there is a top 16 tier is there a guarantee that Dublin won't bate somebody out the gate. Croke Park better have a wee word in Jim Gavin's ear!!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 04:15:12 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 04:06:16 PM

If there is a top 16 tier is there a guarantee that Dublin won't bate somebody out the gate. Croke Park better have a wee word in Jim Gavin's ear!!!!

This!!
There are not two tiers.  There are multiple tiers and there is a far greater range between 1-16 as there is from 9-24. 

Question again!! Whose agenda is a tiered championship? The media!! Some useful idiots in the GAA are buying into it. Must be nice to get your name in the Irish Independent for supporting a tiered championship. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:25:14 PM
Quote from: APM on June 04, 2019, 03:16:58 PM
Quote from: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.




Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

Fully agree FivePoints! Although you mightn't like what I have said above about seeding.  But at least seeding isn't the same as saying "f**k off and die" which is effectively what tiering is about - out of sight - out of mind.  How much coverage has the media given to the McDonagh Cup, the Ring Cup, Rackard Cup etc?  This isn't about an agenda for weaker counties, its about a media agenda. 

Trailer, you need to be careful in what they wish for.  Before 1986 Tyrone had never been in an AIF and only won 4 Ulsters - it is not impossible that when Mickey goes, there could be a serious readjustment that the county will struggle with.  As we have seen with Derry, Armagh, Down, Meath, Cork and Offaly, once strong counties can suffer from a serious fall from grace and in a province like Ulster, its all the more possible.

I am well aware of the success and indeed lack thereof of Tyrone football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 04:33:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.


THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

In fairness, I don't think that would be acceptable if the FA Cup was the premiere competition.  It's because it is of less importance that such a situation is tolerated. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on June 04, 2019, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: APM on June 04, 2019, 03:16:58 PM
Quote from: five points on June 04, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.




Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

Fully agree FivePoints! Although you mightn't like what I have said above about seeding.  But at least seeding isn't the same as saying "f**k off and die" which is effectively what tiering is about - out of sight - out of mind.  How much coverage has the media given to the McDonagh Cup, the Ring Cup, Rackard Cup etc?  This isn't about an agenda for weaker counties, its about a media agenda. 

Trailer, you need to be careful in what they wish for.  Before 1986 Tyrone had never been in an AIF and only won 4 Ulsters - it is not impossible that when Mickey goes, there could be a serious readjustment that the county will struggle with.  As we have seen with Derry, Armagh, Down, Meath, Cork and Offaly, once strong counties can suffer from a serious fall from grace and in a province like Ulster, its all the more possible.

How much coverage have wicklow, carlow, waterford, wexford received in the football championship this year? Wexford will get beat by Derry next Sat and be finished with football in June for the year. They will have played more games in January than in the best months of the year June, July & August. How are counties expected to improve based on this.

The picture in the paper last weekend of the Longford footballer working as a Garda rather than play championship football is an indictment of the farcical fixtures format. He played in the league, but won't play in the championship as he has no prospect of winning a trophy and would be prevented from playing football in the US for the summer even though the county will be knocked out of the championship before the end of June.

At this stage I don't care what the GAA try, but to leave the fixtures format the way it is is the worst thing they could do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

The FA cup is on life support for fucks sake. You're supposed to be making the argument for retaining the current championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on June 04, 2019, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

You don't hear any complaints because the main competition for all the clubs is the league they play in every week against teams of similar standard. Also the top sides now only put out their second string/youngsters in the FA Cup as it's not their main interest.

It's not a coincidence that the GAA national leagues are so competitive/entertaining when you have teams of similar standards playing against each other
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

The FA cup is on life support for f**ks sake. You're supposed to be making the argument for retaining the current championship.

Yes, some teams don't take it as seriously these last few years, but that's because money is more important ie staying in the PL.

But you seen the teams that got to semi or finals over the years. If an FA cup style format was the main Gaelic Competition, everyone would take it seriously. Straight knockout, winner takes all. I'm not saying every county has the potential to win it, but they could all get good runs together.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

The FA cup is on life support for f**ks sake. You're supposed to be making the argument for retaining the current championship.

Yes, some teams don't take it as seriously these last few years, but that's because money is more important ie staying in the PL.

But you seen the teams that got to semi or finals over the years. If an FA cup style format was the main Gaelic Competition, everyone would take it seriously. Straight knockout, winner takes all. I'm not saying every county has the potential to win it, but they could all get good runs together.

Go and take a lie down.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on June 04, 2019, 05:04:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

The FA cup is on life support for f**ks sake. You're supposed to be making the argument for retaining the current championship.

Yes, some teams don't take it as seriously these last few years, but that's because money is more important ie staying in the PL.

But you seen the teams that got to semi or finals over the years. If an FA cup style format was the main Gaelic Competition, everyone would take it seriously. Straight knockout, winner takes all. I'm not saying every county has the potential to win it, but they could all get good runs together.

Players are spending more time training now than ever before and you suggest that their summer should be over after 1 game?

Players want more games in the summer not less. Good luck expecting players to train for 6/7 months for that! 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Soccer Cups are only secondary competitions.
Their Leagues are the Championships.

Now what if the GAA at an Autumn go with one of the Tier 2 Proposals currently on the table and then the Fixtures Review Committee comes up with a totally new format for the inter County Senior Football Championships?
They've been asked to come up with 3 proposals. As they've been told there are no sacred cows I expect one proposal will be to abolish the Provincials.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 05:11:44 PM
If there were more games there'd be less time for training. Everyone hates training and everyone loves games. Panel drop offs, burnout, players becoming disenfranchised could all be addressed. But some people on here want to flog players for 10 months for 2 games in the Championship. Go figure. 

One way to possibly make everyone happy is to flip the championship and the league. The league becomes the big one - Sam Maguire. Provincials a pre-season warm up. It's a quick easy fix.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 05:24:09 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on June 04, 2019, 05:04:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 04, 2019, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
How old is the FA cup? You don't hear any calls for it to be scrapped. There's no way that Woking will be able to compete with Man City, yet the format never changes.

The great thing about the FA Cup is that Man Utd can draw Man City in Round 3. And the winners draw Liverpool in Round 4 (as what happened in 2012). That's two big teams gone long before the final. That's the same as Dublin and Kerry going out before the QF stage of an open draw AI championship.

THat would make for a more open competition. Granted, big teams won't always be drawn together in early rounds but it can happen. A good run to a semi or final for a Wicklow or Sligo would do more for football in those counties than any win in a B championship.

The FA cup is on life support for f**ks sake. You're supposed to be making the argument for retaining the current championship.

Yes, some teams don't take it as seriously these last few years, but that's because money is more important ie staying in the PL.

But you seen the teams that got to semi or finals over the years. If an FA cup style format was the main Gaelic Competition, everyone would take it seriously. Straight knockout, winner takes all. I'm not saying every county has the potential to win it, but they could all get good runs together.

Players are spending more time training now than ever before and you suggest that their summer should be over after 1 game?

Players want more games in the summer not less. Good luck expecting players to train for 6/7 months for that!

Your summer being over after 1 game. Is that much worse than it being over after 2 games?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 04, 2019, 06:46:36 PM
people would moan if it was fa cup style 1 loss and out it would be very exciting tho every game in the tournament should be as big as the final if tyrone played dublin in 1st game the tension would be great as one team knows there summer is over if they get beat.

The only other way to ensure each team gets at least two games is make the 1st round best of 3 would people not be intrested in a tyrone v dublin best of 3 series

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 04, 2019, 06:52:03 PM
Would it not also make playing for the county more of achievement if you went to  open ai draw because you could potentially be knock out in the 1st round.


Also would it boost the club game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Soccer Cups are only secondary competitions.
Their Leagues are the Championships.


They have the European cup which is far from a secondary competition where the best team in Europe doesn't always win that cup and remains open for underdogs to produce giant killing act. It starts off with a group stage (a lot more sensible than a group stage for the final 8 ) and becomes knock out for the last 16. The leagues are their tiered system and are important with a world wide interest.

The GAA have a league which is their best format and tiered system already in place and HQ choose not to improve its importance and want to bring in a 2nd tiered format for its cup competition (the championship) beggars belief!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 04, 2019, 07:35:20 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Soccer Cups are only secondary competitions.
Their Leagues are the Championships.


They have the European cup which is far from a secondary competition where the best team in Europe doesn't always win that cup and remains open for underdogs to produce giant killing act. It starts off with a group stage (a lot more sensible than a group stage for the final 8 ) and becomes knock out for the last 16. The leagues are their tiered system and are important with a world wide interest.

The GAA have a league which is their best format and tiered system already in place and HQ choose not to improve its importance and want to bring in a 2nd tiered format for its cup competition (the championship) beggars belief!

As far as I'm aware only the top teams get into the european cup. Most teams aren't allowed to play in it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 04, 2019, 07:35:20 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Soccer Cups are only secondary competitions.
Their Leagues are the Championships.


They have the European cup which is far from a secondary competition where the best team in Europe doesn't always win that cup and remains open for underdogs to produce giant killing act. It starts off with a group stage (a lot more sensible than a group stage for the final 8 ) and becomes knock out for the last 16. The leagues are their tiered system and are important with a world wide interest.

The GAA have a league which is their best format and tiered system already in place and HQ choose not to improve its importance and want to bring in a 2nd tiered format for its cup competition (the championship) beggars belief!

As far as I'm aware only the top teams get into the european cup. Most teams aren't allowed to play in it.

The old European cup had league winners only taking part. Nowadays you can have a teams struggling in their own domestic league and still reaching the latter stages of that cup competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 08:33:27 PM
You'll find that Euro Soccer thingy is now called "Champions League".
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 09:01:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 08:33:27 PM
You'll find that Euro Soccer thingy is now called "Champions League".


Don't let the catchy name fool you, group stages and knock out games from the last 16 stage is not a league. You will also find that three of the last four "Champions league" winners did not win their own domestic league the previous season. In other words champions of a cup competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 04, 2019, 09:40:48 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 04, 2019, 07:35:20 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 04, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Soccer Cups are only secondary competitions.
Their Leagues are the Championships.


They have the European cup which is far from a secondary competition where the best team in Europe doesn't always win that cup and remains open for underdogs to produce giant killing act. It starts off with a group stage (a lot more sensible than a group stage for the final 8 ) and becomes knock out for the last 16. The leagues are their tiered system and are important with a world wide interest.

The GAA have a league which is their best format and tiered system already in place and HQ choose not to improve its importance and want to bring in a 2nd tiered format for its cup competition (the championship) beggars belief!

As far as I'm aware only the top teams get into the european cup. Most teams aren't allowed to play in it.

The old European cup had league winners only taking part. Nowadays you can have a teams struggling in their own domestic league and still reaching the latter stages of that cup competition.

So are you saying that we should have qualifying for the championship from league placing like in the champions league? Interesting viewpoint.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 05, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Have any of you people ever actually played Gaelic football? Because it appears quite a lot of you have not a clue about the difference in league and Championship football. Championship is on a completely different level to league football because it is a knockout competition, do or die, give everything on the day.

Any one who has ever been on a training pitch the week before a championship, or in the changing rooms before the game let alone on the pitch during a game could easily explain the difference in league and championship. Making the championship like a league takes away the very thing that makes it special and if you have ever experienced that white heat of a championship match, even just at club level, you will understand exactly what i am talking about.

It is clear most of the people on here spouting have never been in that position and therefore have not a clue what they are talking about, regurgitating some crap they have heard on TSG or seen on Twitter. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
If I could dare speak following that rant.....
Most Counties have group stages in their Club Championships.

And on the subject of the thread the proposals on the table provide for  "Tier 2" to be determined by League placings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 05, 2019, 11:29:58 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 05, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Have any of you people ever actually played Gaelic football? Because it appears quite a lot of you have not a clue about the difference in league and Championship football. Championship is on a completely different level to league football because it is a knockout competition, do or die, give everything on the day.

Any one who has ever been on a training pitch the week before a championship, or in the changing rooms before the game let alone on the pitch during a game could easily explain the difference in league and championship. Making the championship like a league takes away the very thing that makes it special and if you have ever experienced that white heat of a championship match, even just at club level, you will understand exactly what i am talking about.

It is clear most of the people on here spouting have never been in that position and therefore have not a clue what they are talking about, regurgitating some crap they have heard on TSG or seen on Twitter.

You need to continue to take you medication. Even missing one day can result in outburst like this.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 05, 2019, 11:55:03 AM
Keyser has a point. Championship is all about knockout. It has been diluted by the qualifiers and now the super 8.

Knock out football is what it's all about. But there's money to be made so it's going to be super 8 and champions league style groups from now on.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 05, 2019, 12:34:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 05, 2019, 11:55:03 AM
Keyser has a point. Championship is all about knockout. It has been diluted by the qualifiers and now the super 8.


I would agree but lets call it the Sam Maguire Cup - a knockout competition with an open draw for all 32 teams.

Let the League be renamed The Championship by all means and have Divisions (as presently), Tiers or Senior/Junior/Intermediate.
Play the League and Cup concurrently in same season strating in April.
Re-format the League as required, e.g. a Senior/Junior/Intermediate divisions with promotion and relegation.
The League will overtake the Sam Maguire Cup in importance but so be it - the Sam Maguire Cup will always retain a certain aura.

Provincials can be played pre-season (Jan-Mar) replacing McKenna, O'Byrne, FBD etc.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 05, 2019, 12:50:20 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 05, 2019, 12:34:59 PM

Provincials can be played pre-season (Jan-Mar) replacing McKenna, O'Byrne, FBD etc.

Then they become the McKenna, O'Byrne, FBD etc.  So you end up scrapping competitions that teams want to win and supporters want to follow and replacing them with glorified challenge matches.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 05, 2019, 02:27:35 PM
We're all fond of the provincials and they can still be worthwhile competitions in the pre-season.

Provincials shouldn't be a route to Sam Maguire – unfair advantage to smaller provinces.
Qualifiers shouldn't be a route to Sam Maguire – they are an advantage to stronger counties.
Super 8s shouldn't be a route to Sam Maguire – for both reasons above.

An open draw knockout is the fairest for the Sam Maguire Cup – keep the divisions/tiers for the league and play the League and Sam Maguire Cup concurrently.

I would agree with posters who say that the Super 8s were introduced for commercial purposes more so than for the promotion of the game or the interests of players and supporters. The lustre is wearing off the hurling round-robins and the same will happen to the Super 8s. 

In all probability the same 5/6 counties will qualify for Super 8s year on year with 2/3 interlopers.
Attendances will fall off at a lot of these games – expensive and repetitive for supporters & neutrals.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on June 05, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on June 05, 2019, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2019, 08:33:27 PM
You'll find that Euro Soccer thingy is now called "Champions League".

How could we forget, after all every gobshite who needs their opinions spoonfed to them on this subject automatically comes out with "let's have a champions league format" because someone like Breheny or Spillane came up with it years ago, and the herd followed suit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 05, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?
How much did Louth and Carlow improve from the batins they got recently in Leinster?
You do realise the current proposals provide for the retention of the Provincials where the little teams can still play the big ones?

All the money in the world won't make Leitrim competitive with Dublin which has 40 times the population.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 05, 2019, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 03:27:38 PM

How much did Louth and Carlow improve from the batins they got recently in Leinster?
The Carlow manager is a strong opponent of a tiered championship.

QuoteYou do realise the current proposals provide for the retention of the Provincials where the little teams can still play the big ones?

In name only. Shoving them to the winter.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 03:37:21 PM
Who's shoving Provincials to the Winter?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 05, 2019, 03:38:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 03:37:21 PM
Who's shoving Provincials to the Winter?

Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 05, 2019, 12:34:59 PM

Provincials can be played pre-season (Jan-Mar) replacing McKenna, O'Byrne, FBD etc.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 05, 2019, 03:54:08 PM
People should go off and read what the GAA has proposed, then come back and discuss. Because someone on here has said lets do X, does not mean it's a viable option. For Gods sake if we implemented some of the stupid ideas proposed on this thread the game would be dead in 5 years.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 05, 2019, 03:54:14 PM
If they bring in tiered system, what's the point of keeping the provincials? They just become the McKenna Cup. Nice to get a couple games under your belt, but ultimately, nobody gives a toss.

An open draw is the only way to go. People still remember the Meath Dublin marathon in 1991. Imagine the coverage a Dublin Kerry would get for the first round? You would sell it 10 times over.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 05, 2019, 04:07:26 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 05, 2019, 03:54:14 PM
If they bring in tiered system, what's the point of keeping the provincials? They just become the McKenna Cup. Nice to get a couple games under your belt, but ultimately, nobody gives a toss.

An open draw is the only way to go. People still remember the Meath Dublin marathon in 1991. Imagine the coverage a Dublin Kerry would get for the first round? You would sell it 10 times over.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the initial proposals from HQ are to retain the Provincials and EVERY county starts with a chance of winning Sam Maguire. IF a Div 3 or 4 team reaches their provincial final they continue on in the Sam Maguire tier. If they don't they play in a B Tier with the other Div 3 and Div 4 teams who didn't reach the Provincial final.  Surely this is fair enough for all counties?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 04:13:11 PM
You have it correct  Jog2.
The amount of "fake news" being blown about here is something else :D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 05, 2019, 04:37:44 PM
Just to clarify - GAA President John Horan actually expressed an aspiration and there are no formal proposals tabled as yet.

John Horan said:
"Our hope will be at the next central council meeting in June to bring forward proposals to look at the introduction of a Tier 2 Championship for those teams in Division Three and Four.
"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a Tier 2 Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there and I think we will possibly get it through at Central Council. If we do we'll call a Special Congress in September/October to look at putting it forward to maybe having it introduced next year."


https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0527/1051926-gaa-president-pressing-forward-with-tier-2-championship/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0527/1051926-gaa-president-pressing-forward-with-tier-2-championship/)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 05, 2019, 10:50:16 PM
get rid of provincials or keep them separate replace mckenna cup etc with provincials infact maybe you could start provincials in January and have them on a league and playoff format  ulster championship could be 1 group of 4 and a group of 5

The leinster championship could have two divisions top division of 6 teams  in the top division the team that finishes top gets place in final and 2nd plays 3rd in a semi final  the bottom team is relegated to leinster 2nd divsion

same with munster championship all teams in a league league winner gets place in finals 2nd v 3rd in semi final

Start provincials the 1st weekend after christmas

If you going to have two tier championships then you have 4 groups of 4 then top two in each group go into qfs  the teams that finish bottom of the groups go into playoffs to see who get relegated
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 05, 2019, 10:54:31 PM
no way the gaa would ever go open draw championship i would love it but we are not in the era of open draw championships anymore im a big fan of open draw as it gives weaker teams hope and does not protect the big teams but no way would the gaa risk having kerry v dublin in 1st round it be great for a neutral but gaa wont risk a big team going out early or there dash cow dublin potentially getting knockout in 1st round
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 05, 2019, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: irish345 on June 05, 2019, 10:54:31 PM
no way the gaa would ever go open draw championship i would love it but we are not in the era of open draw championships anymore im a big fan of open draw as it gives weaker teams hope and does not protect the big teams but no way would the gaa risk having kerry v dublin in 1st round it be great for a neutral but gaa wont risk a big team going out early or there dash cow dublin potentially getting knockout in 1st round

Yup, I agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 06, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2019, 09:09:07 AM
Train 6 months for 1 meaningful game for half your players?
Local soccer and Rugby clubs would love that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 06, 2019, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 05, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on June 06, 2019, 10:26:38 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 06, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 06, 2019, 10:27:59 AM
Martin Breheny had a very good article on this in yesterday's Indo. He thinks a second tier won't work if it excludes certain counties from playing in the All Ireland Qualifiers but it might work if restricted to lower-division counties who exit the main championship in qualifier rounds 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 06, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
Is that not just what the Tommy Murphy cup was though?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 06, 2019, 10:39:23 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 06, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
Is that not just what the Tommy Murphy cup was though?

Breheny admits that, but notes that counties were shoved into the Tommy Murphy Cup against their will and not allowed play in the qualifiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2019, 10:52:31 AM
They were for 2 years only.
The present (being considered) proposals* are in effect Tommy Murphy Mark 2 .

* D3/4 teams that don't make a Provincial Final go straight to Tier 2 or
* All teams that don't reach Provincial Final go to Qualifiers. D3/4 teams that don't make Round 3 then enter  a Tier 2.
*I haven't heard of any others
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on June 06, 2019, 11:14:06 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 06, 2019, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 05, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.
Aye well you may tell the boys in Derry city they're wasting their time then!  ::)

If there is an appetite for these elitist proposals among the weaker counties then I'll support them. This notion of giving the weak counties a wee to cup to play for cos they're gonna get hammered is the wrong approach. We've already heured ourselves out to Sky tv and along with the super 8s this is just another commercially motivated proposal to get the shite counties out of the road
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on June 06, 2019, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 06, 2019, 10:26:38 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 06, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.

You'd wonder about that;

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/ (http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/)

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: GAA_Punter on June 06, 2019, 11:54:02 AM
IF there is a second tier, TG4 would have to get full rights to cover at least two matches a week. Possibly the main match being on a Friday night live on TV could give it good exposure.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 06, 2019, 11:58:28 AM
Div 3 and 4 teams actually want a tiered championship. Derry for example. They want their own championship to compete for with Carlow, Leitrim and Waterford etc.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 06, 2019, 11:14:06 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 06, 2019, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 05, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.
Aye well you may tell the boys in Derry city they're wasting their time then!  ::)

If there is an appetite for these elitist proposals among the weaker counties then I'll support them. This notion of giving the weak counties a wee to cup to play for cos they're gonna get hammered is the wrong approach. We've already heured ourselves out to Sky tv and along with the super 8s this is just another commercially motivated proposal to get the shite counties out of the road

talk the Cup could be slightly smaller than the Ashes trophy!  ;D

The reality is most counties haven't a chance of winning Sam or getting anywhere close. What is the problem with letting EVERY county start in their Provinces and the All-Ireland, and if (could be a Provincial semi-final exit or qualifier Rd 2 exit etc...,) a county is not good enough in that particular year, get a chance of playing for a tier 2 cup? Personally I think it's a no brainer.

Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 06, 2019, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: Estimator on June 06, 2019, 10:26:38 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 06, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 05, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.

You'd wonder about that;

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/ (http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/)

"Our accounts are published annually and tabled at the AGM with all transactions detailed.

"Our treasurer stepped down for personal reasons. Any attempt to portray that there is a wider issue is inaccurate and uninformed."

But no doubt a straight knock-out does hit the county's central pot, but it's what the clubs voted for
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 06, 2019, 12:38:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.

Would repeating your Division 4 final win by beating Leitrim in a Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II Final on a Saturday afternoon in Croke Park really be any better than taking out Cavan, Monaghan or Cork in an AI qualifier?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 01:38:59 PM
Quote from: five points on June 06, 2019, 12:38:16 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.

Would repeating your Division 4 final win by beating Leitrim in a Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II Final on a Saturday afternoon in Croke Park really be any better than taking out Cavan, Monaghan or Cork in an AI qualifier?

Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 06, 2019, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 01:38:59 PM
Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.

You didn't answer my question!

In my own county's case, we got a great boost from beating Derry in Celtic Park in 2013, when we were near the bottom of Division 3 in the league. The impetus from that drove us to promotion first to Division 2 and then to Division 1 and a decent improvement in our championship performances even if we didn't win any titles.

I'm not so sure we'd have gotten the same bounce from winning a B title in an empty Croke Park on a Saturday afternoon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 06, 2019, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: five points on June 06, 2019, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 01:38:59 PM
Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.

You didn't answer my question!

In my own county's case, we got a great boost from beating Derry in Celtic Park in 2013, when we were near the bottom of Division 3 in the league. The impetus from that drove us to promotion first to Division 2 and then to Division 1 and a decent improvement in our championship performances even if we didn't win any titles.

I'm not so sure we'd have gotten the same bounce from winning a B title in an empty Croke Park on a Saturday afternoon.

Yeah good point. That's why I favour an open draw. Lesser teams getting a good run would do more for football in that county than any league title or coaching.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 02:22:00 PM
Quote from: five points on June 06, 2019, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 06, 2019, 01:38:59 PM
Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.

You didn't answer my question!

In my own county's case, we got a great boost from beating Derry in Celtic Park in 2013, when we were near the bottom of Division 3 in the league. The impetus from that drove us to promotion first to Division 2 and then to Division 1 and a decent improvement in our championship performances even if we didn't win any titles.

I'm not so sure we'd have gotten the same bounce from winning a B title in an empty Croke Park on a Saturday afternoon.

In a word, at the minute, yes tbh.  If Derry continues to progress next year, my answer will probably change.
Derry could win 1/2 Ulster games against the likes of Cavan / Monaghan (great boosts) in Ulster. They could also potentially beat either Cavan or Monaghan in Rd 1 of the qualifiers (happy days again), then get knocked out of Rd 2 of the qualifiers...in the present setup they'd be gone for the summer.
You talk of progress, Derry would, imo progress much more as a unit by playing say 3 / 4/ 5 more competitive games during the summer in Tier 2 (you'd guess mostly Div 3 teams in the latter rounds).

We know were we are at the moment, but potential wise, we're in a much better position than a lot of teams who will continue to be canon fodder in a 1 size fits all championship.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 07, 2019, 09:52:03 AM
With all this progressing that all these crap teams are gonna make under tiers it will be no time at all until everybody will be back playing in the top tier!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 08, 2019, 10:32:20 PM
Buzzing tonight.  Antrim beat Louth.  Can't wait for the draw on Monday morning.  Feck the 2nd tier. This is what we live for, not a poxy 2nd tier which no one talks about.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 09, 2019, 05:37:18 PM
Could this be an idea that could work play 4 provincials and the 4 provincials champions get into the quarter finals  the 28 provincial losers go into a 28 team unseeded tournament  with 28 teams you have to give 4 teams a bye that could be the 4 provincial final losers but dont protect them in the last 16 of the qualifiers once there 4 teams left from the qualifiers they join the 4 champions in quarter finals  this kind of similar system to what we have now but semi final losers will be entering in the 1st round and provincial final losers would have to play 2 win two games to make it into the last 8 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:00:26 PM
Things I'll never understand on threads like this.

1. Why people continually wish to create paths (back doors) for beaten teams to re enter-the competition. In the overwhelming majority of cases these beaten teams have genuinely no chance of winning the trophy. So all this does is bloat and elongate the competition unnecessarily.

2. Why anyone believes we need a second tier football championship. We already have one of those, it's called CLUB FOOTBALL. Club football needs multiple grades, as it ultimately must provide a past time for players of all abilities.  County football doesn't need to do this. It is an elite level sport.

3. Why anyone believes that the media, the general public, and even the majority of potentially available players would give even the slightest damn about a second tier county competition. It's almost as though people are deliberately ignoring everything we've learned from hurling over the past decade. And now we've hurling fans on social media bemoaning that RTE wont cover games with 200 spectators at them. Is that who you want to be in 5 years' time?

4. Why anyone on this earth would want to watch Antrim play Wicklow in round 1 of a championship, whether an open draw all county championship, or an open draw tier two championship. How to make sure the amazingly passive footballers of Antrim actually arrive at a complete stop, is to take away local derbies and associated media frenzy.

——-

If we want a high quality championship, then limit the number of games the weaker teams are faced with.

If we want to ensure that footballing counties can awaken from a slumber, then we can't eject them from the All Ireland. There is a great generation of 11 year olds in every single county right now. But they won't come close to fulfilling their potential unless the carrot of Gaelic Games is strong.

—-

Solution?


Go back to provincial championships.

Up to the provincial finals, beaten teams from National League d1 and d2 go into the back door once they've been beaten, and face-off until there's 4 teams playing 4 beaten provincial finalists.

Teams from d3 and d4 do not get a second chance unless they make the provincial final.

Club football becomes king again by the start of June in half the counties in Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:31:34 PM
So many structures and solutions and every one of them ignoring what by now should be blatantly obvious. County boundaries are conceptually a great way of dividing players into teams, but it doesn't work. It would be great to live in a world where every team has a chance, but that's just dreaming. The GAA has to find a way of making its sport inclusive. It needs to provide a platform for the hurler in Leitrim to play at the highest level. Otherwise, it might as well say we have nothing for you, and we go on as we're going, blowing smoke up the big counties holes
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 09, 2019, 06:27:32 PM
That's a pretty shite idea.

A team could be beaten in the preliminary round and enter the back door while the team who beat them gets nothing for winning 2 matches in the provincial championship.

But the problem i'm detecting is that you've no idea what you want. Only that somehow, you want it that the most unequal of things - sport - can be contrived into egalitarianism.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Look at Antrim beating Louth. The reaction was similar to winning the AI for Antrim. Another reason for a tiered championship as if it were needed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:31:34 PM
So many structures and solutions and every one of them ignoring what by now should be blatantly obvious. County boundaries are conceptually a great way of dividing players into teams, but it doesn't work. It would be great to live in a world where every team has a chance, but that's just dreaming. The GAA has to find a way of making its sport inclusive. It needs to provide a platform for the hurler in Leitrim to play at the highest level. Otherwise, it might as well say we have nothing for you, and we go on as we're going, blowing smoke up the big counties holes

Gaelic Football has two USPs over soccer: 1. it's a more manly pursuit, 2. its one-life-one-club ethos creates a sense of place.

If you genuinely believe that the GAA could grow in strength through the destruction of its second USP, then I'd question your sanity.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 09, 2019, 06:51:53 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Look at Antrim beating Louth. The reaction was similar to winning the AI for Antrim. Another reason for a tiered championship as if it were needed.
Nonsense on both counts.

Lenny Harbinson said as much.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:31:34 PM
So many structures and solutions and every one of them ignoring what by now should be blatantly obvious. County boundaries are conceptually a great way of dividing players into teams, but it doesn't work. It would be great to live in a world where every team has a chance, but that's just dreaming. The GAA has to find a way of making its sport inclusive. It needs to provide a platform for the hurler in Leitrim to play at the highest level. Otherwise, it might as well say we have nothing for you, and we go on as we're going, blowing smoke up the big counties holes

Gaelic Football has two USPs over soccer: 1. it's a more manly pursuit, 2. its one-life-one-club ethos creates a sense of place.

If you genuinely believe that the GAA could grow in strength through the destruction of its second USP, then I'd question your sanity.

Attendances at county level suggest the USP is not what you think it is. And I'm speaking about that level only
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 07:04:38 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 06:31:34 PM
So many structures and solutions and every one of them ignoring what by now should be blatantly obvious. County boundaries are conceptually a great way of dividing players into teams, but it doesn't work. It would be great to live in a world where every team has a chance, but that's just dreaming. The GAA has to find a way of making its sport inclusive. It needs to provide a platform for the hurler in Leitrim to play at the highest level. Otherwise, it might as well say we have nothing for you, and we go on as we're going, blowing smoke up the big counties holes

Gaelic Football has two USPs over soccer: 1. it's a more manly pursuit, 2. its one-life-one-club ethos creates a sense of place.

If you genuinely believe that the GAA could grow in strength through the destruction of its second USP, then I'd question your sanity.

Attendances at county level suggest the USP is not what you think it is. And I'm speaking about that level only

Attendances at Railway Cup, Sigerson Cup and even international rules matches in the past 20 years should give you the evidence you need, that you can put all the greatest exponents of the game on display, but unless the match engenders a community loyalty, then nobody will turn up. Nobody.

Meanwhile there'll be 5,000 people will watch Down C take on Antrim B in the McKenna Cup on a freezing cold, pissing wet January evening.

Interest might be waning in county football. But only to 1980s levels so far. It can return to noughties  levels of interest quickly.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 07:34:16 PM
How? And is it fair, year on year, to ask small counties to essentially play for nothing? If there was nobody watching, I'd rather anyone who wanted to play a sport had a chance of getting somewhere. This system is so badly designed that it negates that possibility. If I'm a good young soccer player, I can progress. Not in the GAA.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 07:40:38 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 07:34:16 PM
How?

Because when Kerry dominated football in the 70s and 80s, you could have fitted an average championship match attendance in a large chapel. And that's when it was straight "all on the day" knockout ffs. Things picked up when Meath and Cork broke the stranglehold, went up a gear again when the Ulster teams burst through, and peaked in the early noughties when there are three outstanding sides, and a useful supporting cast of counties.

—-

We are currently at close to, or at the bottom, of the arc. Eventually Dublin will stop dominating. And county attendances will slowly rise again.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 07:45:35 PM
Your theories are based on big counties awakening. You don't give two shites about small counties or their players. It's about time people realised that there's good footballers and hurlers in every county. Anything else is the Marty Squad and his ridiculous platitudes
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on June 09, 2019, 07:34:16 PM
How? And is it fair, year on year, to ask small counties to essentially play for nothing? If there was nobody watching, I'd rather anyone who wanted to play a sport had a chance of getting somewhere. This system is so badly designed that it negates that possibility. If I'm a good young soccer player, I can progress. Not in the GAA.

You just don't get it, do you?

The very reason why there is sufficient public interest to support the concept of high profile / elite Gaelic Games, is because the sport is ground into our communities.

It's got very little to f**k all to do with it being a "brilliant sport". If it was truly a brilliant sport it would have spread worldwide like soccer.

—-

Take away that community grounding, and the sport implodes.

Then it just won't be wee John from leitriim not getting to win hurling medals in televised matches from Croke Park. It'll be wee John from every county in Ireland.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 09, 2019, 10:41:46 PM
i see intercounty as gaa equivalent of international soccer so be it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 10, 2019, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Look at Antrim beating Louth. The reaction was similar to winning the AI for Antrim. Another reason for a tiered championship as if it were needed.
Wrong. The buzz is because we won a game in the main event and are in the pot for the next round, excited about who we might get.  I can guarantee you that if we beat Louth in the first round of a 2nd tier competition there would be absolutely zero interest in it. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 10, 2019, 07:45:12 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 10, 2019, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Look at Antrim beating Louth. The reaction was similar to winning the AI for Antrim. Another reason for a tiered championship as if it were needed.
Wrong. The buzz is because we won a game in the main event and are in the pot for the next round, excited about who we might get.  I can guarantee you that if we beat Louth in the first round of a 2nd tier competition there would be absolutely zero interest in it.

No you can't.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 10, 2019, 11:20:24 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on June 10, 2019, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on June 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Look at Antrim beating Louth. The reaction was similar to winning the AI for Antrim. Another reason for a tiered championship as if it were needed.
Wrong. The buzz is because we won a game in the main event and are in the pot for the next round, excited about who we might get.  I can guarantee you that if we beat Louth in the first round of a 2nd tier competition there would be absolutely zero interest in it.

Antrim have zero interest anyway. About 500 turned up to the Tyrone game and that was in the Ulster championship. Where's all this interest that we're going to lose? Have you checked the attendance figures? How many Antrim supporters went to the Louth match? A funky ulsterbus glider could've took them down. Get real for christ sake.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 10, 2019, 11:28:17 AM
#Whiterockornowhere  ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 12, 2019, 02:52:29 PM
"GAA President John Horan has revealed that two different formats for a proposed tier two football championship will be put before Croke Park's Central Council before the end of June".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0612/1054926-horan-cocktail-of-complexities-around-fixtures/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 12, 2019, 05:49:46 PM
have a 32 team unseeded knockout any team  from 3rd or 4th division get knocked out in 1st or 2nd round they go into the secondary competition so you either get to an ireland quarter final or get to compete in b tournament 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 12, 2019, 06:47:53 PM
Straight knockout for tier 2. Funny how they didn't suggest that for tier 1. But then again, there's that golden cow to be milked in tier 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2019, 06:52:01 PM
Will the Tier 2 Trophy be called the "Benny Cake Cup"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 12, 2019, 07:02:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 12, 2019, 06:52:01 PM
Will the Tier 2 Trophy be called the "Benny Cake Cup"?

Yes.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 12, 2019, 11:54:07 PM
will 2 tiers appeal to casuals will casuals go on the lash because they won a b tournament will see mass celebrations in the county that wins
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on June 13, 2019, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 12, 2019, 02:52:29 PM
"GAA President John Horan has revealed that two different formats for a proposed tier two football championship will be put before Croke Park's Central Council before the end of June".

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0612/1054926-horan-cocktail-of-complexities-around-fixtures/
"One of them is a straight knock-out competition between the 16 teams; you'd have a first round, quarter-final, semi-final and final and the hope would be that the semi-finals would be played together in Croke Park and shown on television with the final played before one of the Super 8s games, again hopefully televised."

Really going out of his way to sell it to those who'll be packed off into it, yes if you manage to get to the final you'll be on before a group game in the big boys league, and maybe it might be on TV, or the Sunday Game might just show 90 seconds of highlights instead.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 13, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
I would suggest they have the final before the super 8 with the winner automatically getting a spot in the super 8's or a playoff for entry to the 8's.  That would give enough encouragement to commit to and win the second tier.
They need to sweeten the pot a little in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PAULD123 on June 13, 2019, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 13, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
I would suggest they have the final before the super 8 with the winner automatically getting a spot in the super 8's or a playoff for entry to the 8's.  That would give enough encouragement to commit to and win the second tier.
They need to sweeten the pot a little in my opinion.

I see your point but the problem with giving a super-8 place to the winners is that the prize then becomes the access to the Tier 1 competition. If you have a Tier 2 competition it has to be valued in its own right. Maybe it allows access to next year Tier 1, that makes sense, but the competition must be an independent competition to have it's existence be of any genuine merit.

Teams genuinely want to win the Junior & intermediate All-Ireland club titles. Our club won Ulster and missed out in an all-Ireland semi by a point. The Ulster title didn't get us into USC or All-Ireland senior. But the prize was great - being Ulster champions (even though at effectively tier 2 level).

If we go back to Junior All-Ireland (Tier 2) then that has to be a competition alone and not a same-season stepping stone. Otherwise we may as well just keep the qualifiers.

Also I think the final should be played as a curtain raiser to the All-Ireland senior. The minors could come before it as a 3 match day (If we really insist on having minor final match senior final), or minors could be played at a separate event. Is the minor final really that important or popular except for the participating counties?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on June 13, 2019, 01:44:08 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 13, 2019, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 13, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
I would suggest they have the final before the super 8 with the winner automatically getting a spot in the super 8's or a playoff for entry to the 8's.  That would give enough encouragement to commit to and win the second tier.
They need to sweeten the pot a little in my opinion.

I see your point but the problem with giving a super-8 place to the winners is that the prize then becomes the access to the Tier 1 competition. If you have a Tier 2 competition it has to be valued in its own right. Maybe it allows access to next year Tier 1, that makes sense, but the competition must be an independent competition to have it's existence be of any genuine merit.

Teams genuinely want to win the Junior & intermediate All-Ireland club titles. Our club won Ulster and missed out in an all-Ireland semi by a point. The Ulster title didn't get us into USC or All-Ireland senior. But the prize was great - being Ulster champions (even though at effectively tier 2 level).

If we go back to Junior All-Ireland (Tier 2) then that has to be a competition alone and not a same-season stepping stone. Otherwise we may as well just keep the qualifiers.

Also I think the final should be played as a curtain raiser to the All-Ireland senior. The minors could come before it as a 3 match day (If we really insist on having minor final match senior final), or minors could be played at a separate event. Is the minor final really that important or popular except for the participating counties?
[/b][/u]

This is a no brainer and will give the competition credibility from the outset.

Getting to Croke park at 1.15 to watch a U17, doesen't cut it.
last year the place was still 2/3 thirds empty in the second half of that game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 13, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 13, 2019, 01:14:22 PM
Is the minor final really that important or popular except for the participating counties?

The whole idea is that it is, to all intents and purposes, only for the participating counties. The ticket scramble for 2 senior All Ireland finals on the one day in Croke Park would be murderous. The u17s are fine as a warm-up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 13, 2019, 02:53:08 PM
A lot of sacred cows would have their ticket allocations cut to have 2 Senior Finals the one day.
Otherwise you'd have say Longford v Carlow getting 1500 tickets each.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on June 13, 2019, 11:25:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:00:26 PM
Things I'll never understand on threads like this.

1. Why people continually wish to create paths (back doors) for beaten teams to re enter-the competition. In the overwhelming majority of cases these beaten teams have genuinely no chance of winning the trophy. So all this does is bloat and elongate the competition unnecessarily.

2. Why anyone believes we need a second tier football championship. We already have one of those, it's called CLUB FOOTBALL. Club football needs multiple grades, as it ultimately must provide a past time for players of all abilities.  County football doesn't need to do this. It is an elite level sport.

3. Why anyone believes that the media, the general public, and even the majority of potentially available players would give even the slightest damn about a second tier county competition. It's almost as though people are deliberately ignoring everything we've learned from hurling over the past decade. And now we've hurling fans on social media bemoaning that RTE wont cover games with 200 spectators at them. Is that who you want to be in 5 years' time?

4. Why anyone on this earth would want to watch Antrim play Wicklow in round 1 of a championship, whether an open draw all county championship, or an open draw tier two championship. How to make sure the amazingly passive footballers of Antrim actually arrive at a complete stop, is to take away local derbies and associated media frenzy.

——-

If we want a high quality championship, then limit the number of games the weaker teams are faced with.

If we want to ensure that footballing counties can awaken from a slumber, then we can't eject them from the All Ireland. There is a great generation of 11 year olds in every single county right now. But they won't come close to fulfilling their potential unless the carrot of Gaelic Games is strong.

—-

Solution?


Go back to provincial championships.

Up to the provincial finals, beaten teams from National League d1 and d2 go into the back door once they've been beaten, and face-off until there's 4 teams playing 4 beaten provincial finalists.

Teams from d3 and d4 do not get a second chance unless they make the provincial final.

Club football becomes king again by the start of June in half the counties in Ireland.

Excelllent, excellent post. The obsession with the intercounty game has skewed decision making terribly. That balance needs to be redressed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 14, 2019, 11:02:58 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 13, 2019, 11:25:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 09, 2019, 06:00:26 PM
Things I'll never understand on threads like this.

1. Why people continually wish to create paths (back doors) for beaten teams to re enter-the competition. In the overwhelming majority of cases these beaten teams have genuinely no chance of winning the trophy. So all this does is bloat and elongate the competition unnecessarily.

2. Why anyone believes we need a second tier football championship. We already have one of those, it's called CLUB FOOTBALL. Club football needs multiple grades, as it ultimately must provide a past time for players of all abilities.  County football doesn't need to do this. It is an elite level sport.

3. Why anyone believes that the media, the general public, and even the majority of potentially available players would give even the slightest damn about a second tier county competition. It's almost as though people are deliberately ignoring everything we've learned from hurling over the past decade. And now we've hurling fans on social media bemoaning that RTE wont cover games with 200 spectators at them. Is that who you want to be in 5 years' time?

4. Why anyone on this earth would want to watch Antrim play Wicklow in round 1 of a championship, whether an open draw all county championship, or an open draw tier two championship. How to make sure the amazingly passive footballers of Antrim actually arrive at a complete stop, is to take away local derbies and associated media frenzy.

——-

If we want a high quality championship, then limit the number of games the weaker teams are faced with.

If we want to ensure that footballing counties can awaken from a slumber, then we can't eject them from the All Ireland. There is a great generation of 11 year olds in every single county right now. But they won't come close to fulfilling their potential unless the carrot of Gaelic Games is strong.

—-

Solution?


Go back to provincial championships.

Up to the provincial finals, beaten teams from National League d1 and d2 go into the back door once they've been beaten, and face-off until there's 4 teams playing 4 beaten provincial finalists.

Teams from d3 and d4 do not get a second chance unless they make the provincial final.

Club football becomes king again by the start of June in half the counties in Ireland.

Excelllent, excellent post. The obsession with the intercounty game has skewed decision making terribly. That balance needs to be redressed.

Initially I thought this was a load of clap trap but thinking about it more I now think your post is bang on the money.

The only thing is the protracted out club year with the county championships only finishing after the AI series so may be waiting about but there is a lot of merit in what you are saying there.

(Of course there maybe wouldn't be as much money in it for the GAA so that may be a factor but I think making things proper knockout again would boost attendances greatly).

Paul Coady the Carlow hurler had a very popular twitter thread last night about the McDonagh which was very interesting around a) funding and b) how do carlow ever really improve yo yoing between competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on June 14, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Super article by Cahair Healy. Thanks for sharing Rossfan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 11:52:16 AM
No problem Seánie.
However like Brexiteers trying to return to the 1950s is he hankering after a time and way of doing things that has passed?
I know we've veered off the subject of the thread now....
Seeing as there's a new Fixtures and everything Committee can they come up with a way of ensuring that Club and County Championships advance in tandem over the Summer months?
Say designate a mandatory Club weekend in May, June, July, August and work County fixtures around that?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on June 14, 2019, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html
Excellent piece, that's how it ought to be.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 14, 2019, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 14, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Super article by Cahair Healy. Thanks for sharing Rossfan.

Agree 100%. Well said Cahir Healy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 14, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 14, 2019, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 14, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Super article by Cahair Healy. Thanks for sharing Rossfan.

Agree 100%. Well said Cahir Healy.

I would agree with a lot of that as well.

Paul Flynn at least being honest in what way he wants the game to go, to me that is the antithesis of what the GAA is about but I suppose it is pointless trying to stem this tide. TV money and Sponsorship are the GAA gods to the people that matter.

Unfathomable to me that people who are through and through GAA people think it is a good idea for the GAA to go down this route.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 14, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html

Nonsense. He says people are turning down county because it's a big commitment. The reason it is a big commitment is because no one wants to get completely humped out the gate, so they train more to get better, individually and collectively. There's no chance Jim Gavin or even Rory Gallagher is going to put their team out with a couple of training sessions under their belt. He's looking to rewind the clock 30 years. Not going to happen. He may as well be advocating for the Bishop to throw the ball in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 14, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html

Nonsense. He says people are turning down county because it's a big commitment. The reason it is a big commitment is because no one wants to get completely humped out the gate, so they train more to get better, individually and collectively. There's no chance Jim Gavin or even Rory Gallagher is going to put their team out with a couple of training sessions under their belt. He's looking to rewind the clock 30 years. Not going to happen. He may as well be advocating for the Bishop to throw the ball in.

Can I ask what your views on Paul Flynn's statement are, do you think a semi professional GAA county setup is the way forward?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2019, 01:36:23 PM
Players should be released to county managers for the last weekend of the month, like in international soccer. County game takes place, players go back to clubs until the end of next month.

It doesn't make sense for county managers to have so much access to players. I mean, Ireland don't hang on to Séamus Coleman or Shane Duffy, and only let them go back to club football for the odd game. It just doesn't make any sense, but that's what's happens in GAA. It's mad when you think about it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 14, 2019, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 14, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html

Nonsense. He says people are turning down county because it's a big commitment. The reason it is a big commitment is because no one wants to get completely humped out the gate, so they train more to get better, individually and collectively. There's no chance Jim Gavin or even Rory Gallagher is going to put their team out with a couple of training sessions under their belt. He's looking to rewind the clock 30 years. Not going to happen. He may as well be advocating for the Bishop to throw the ball in.

Can I ask what your views on Paul Flynn's statement are, do you think a semi professional GAA county setup is the way forward?

Absolutely against it. 100%.
What I am advocating for is a sensible solution that see teams graded on their abilities. That provides competitive football for as many counties as possible, with meaningful winnable games.
It's achievable. I believe that if it is properly administered it can generate massive revenues which should be reinvested in coaches. Not to coach elite athletes but to improve the lives, health and well being of all children regardless of ability, county, school, club or location.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 14, 2019, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2019, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 14, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
I'll leave this here for ye

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/semiprofessionalism-is-like-the-gaas-brexit-and-were-teetering-on-the-edge-of-a-cliff-right-now-38218438.html

Nonsense. He says people are turning down county because it's a big commitment. The reason it is a big commitment is because no one wants to get completely humped out the gate, so they train more to get better, individually and collectively. There's no chance Jim Gavin or even Rory Gallagher is going to put their team out with a couple of training sessions under their belt. He's looking to rewind the clock 30 years. Not going to happen. He may as well be advocating for the Bishop to throw the ball in.

Can I ask what your views on Paul Flynn's statement are, do you think a semi professional GAA county setup is the way forward?

Absolutely against it. 100%.
What I am advocating for is a sensible solution that see teams graded on their abilities. That provides competitive football for as many counties as possible, with meaningful winnable games.
It's achievable. I believe that if it is properly administered it can generate massive revenues which should be reinvested in coaches. Not to coach elite athletes but to improve the lives, health and well being of all children regardless of ability, county, school, club or location.

That is a laudable aim, but if that happens I will eat my hat.

And of course on matchdays I still wear one of those crepe jobs that the dye runs out of when it rains. Lined with tinfoil of course  ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 14, 2019, 03:31:16 PM
The best way would be a straight forward knockout no seeds or anything like that why should the likes of dublin or tyrone be protected we will of course get matchups like dublin v louth but that would be balanced out by two small teams getting drawing against each other two weaker counties playing each other with a chance to advanced would probably create a bigger buzz and atmosphere than them playing in a tier 2 tournament  in unseeded draw its not out of the realms of possibility a smaller county gets into a quarter final  would u rather play in an all ireland quarter final or a 2nd tier final.

This would be too simple for gaa tho like a lot of sports organizations these days they dont do simple and its all turning into a racket to protect the big boys/

The club championships should be promoted more too
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 14, 2019, 03:38:25 PM
Stop talking sense @irish345.

No point risking Kerry or Dublin going out in Round 1 though. No no, we need them to play over and over again against the same 3/4 teams, and milk that cow dry.

The champions league is the perfect example of this. Often meaningless group games generating huge tv money for the big 5/6 teams, when a straight knock out would be the better solution.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: OgraAnDun on June 22, 2019, 03:52:17 PM
A grand total of 2,147 watching the Christy Ring final live on YouTube
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 22, 2019, 04:50:35 PM
Good.
And the Laythrum captain made the greatest speech in Croker for many a day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on June 22, 2019, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: irish345 on June 14, 2019, 03:31:16 PM
The best way would be a straight forward knockout no seeds or anything like that why should the likes of dublin or tyrone be protected we will of course get matchups like dublin v louth but that would be balanced out by two small teams getting drawing against each other two weaker counties playing each other with a chance to advanced would probably create a bigger buzz and atmosphere than them playing in a tier 2 tournament  in unseeded draw its not out of the realms of possibility a smaller county gets into a quarter final  would u rather play in an all ireland quarter final or a 2nd tier final.

This would be too simple for gaa tho like a lot of sports organizations these days they dont do simple and its all turning into a racket to protect the big boys/

The club championships should be promoted more too

So you want lads to kill themselves training 9 months of the year for possibly 1 game. What a clown. Clearly you've never played sport at any sort of competitive level. Bar stool athlete who hasn't a clue of real world sacrifices/efforts

While you've been living in your dream world inter county players have been calling for more games not less. Leitrim celebrated winning in the hurling in Croker today. That should be the template. Its not rocket science. Teams of similar standard competing for a trophy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: orangeman on June 23, 2019, 06:08:25 PM
John Horan's call for a second tier cannot be resisted. It's just a matter of compensating the provincial councils for any loss of revenue suffered by them.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 23, 2019, 07:21:49 PM
The Provincials are to be retained under the reported proposal(s).
14 " Tier 1" teams  in the last 16 with Cork (Provincial finalists beat Limerick) and Offaly ( beat Sligo and London) the 2 Tier 2 interlopers.
Monaghan and Fermanagh the 2 Tier 1 casualties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 23, 2019, 09:23:55 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

3 tier competition

Dublin in Tier 1
15 teams in Tier 2
17 teams in Tier 3
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 23, 2019, 09:29:14 PM
Dublin could play nobody in the Tier 1 Final before 82,300.
They've told us for years that Dublin can fill Croke Park on their own.
35,000 if them must have stayed outside in the concourse today ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: shark on June 24, 2019, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

You spoke too soon on the division 3 teams going out next weekend. Just like Spillane saying Meath have no chance in their next game, without knowing the draw.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 24, 2019, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

If all the teams really develop under the tiering system with all these meaningful games will they all then get into tier one?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

What do you suggest? That all teams should get staying in the championship until the end of August? No matter how shit they are?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 24, 2019, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

If all the teams really develop under the tiering system with all these meaningful games will they all then get into tier one?

They all will have the opportunity to get into tier 1. No point going up a level until you're ready for the next tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:39:21 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 24, 2019, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

If all the teams really develop under the tiering system with all these meaningful games will they all then get into tier one?

They all will have the opportunity to get into tier 1. No point going up a level until you're ready for the next tier.

Well is there is a provision for Tier 1 to grow to accomodate these developing teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
The Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

What do you suggest? That all teams should get staying into the championship until the end of August? No matter how shit they are?

If teams are playing at their appropriate level they should be getting a run of games  in the summer. I believe in 3 tiers each of which would have 2 groups of 5/6 teams. This gives everyone 4 or 5 championship matches against teams of a similar level of ability. Top 2 in each group go into semi finals. Each championship could be run off in 2 months. That makes it easy to schedule and plan for. The only unknown for every county/player/supporter is if your team will make the semi finals. That leaves lots of time for club football. Tier 3 could be run off in May and June. Tier 2 could be run off in June and July. Tier 1 could take place in July and August. Small bit of overlap between them. Each Tier gets its own period and therefore would get top media billing at that time. Lots of county football on tv and each tier featured.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:42:06 AM
Quote from: five points on June 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
The Tommy Murphy Cup.

I didn't realise the motivation for tiering county football was to make more room for club football, think I will get right behind it now i have been enlightened.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 25, 2019, 09:45:56 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48741998 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48741998)

Why can't we extend this to football as well? Tell the Leitrim Hurlers that they didn't win an All Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:47:51 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 24, 2019, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 23, 2019, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 23, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Put Dublin in Tier 1.

Everyone else in tier 2.

Why not just throw Dublin out of the championship? It would be a great competition then.

Every division 4 team out of the championship by 23rd june. They'd have all been out 2 weeks ago if they hadn't had decent draws. Only 3 division 3 sides left and they're going out next weekend. The championship really is an irrelevance to those sides, they've nothing to play for. Why not tier the competition so that teams can develop by having more meaningful games. On a side note I saw leitrim hurlers on the sunday game, that has to be a first.

What do you suggest? That all teams should get staying into the championship until the end of August? No matter how shit they are?

If teams are playing at their appropriate level they should be getting a run of games  in the summer. Why should they, if they are no good they should be knocked out and sent packing. I believe in 3 tiers each of which would have 2 groups of 5/6 teams. This gives everyone 4 or 5 championship matches against teams of a similar level of ability. That isn't a championship fella, what you have described is a league! Top 2 in each group go into semi finals. Each championship could be run off in 2 months. That makes it easy to schedule and plan for. The only unknown for every county/player/supporter is if your team will make the semi finals. That leaves lots of time for club football. Tier 3 could be run off in May and June. Tier 2 could be run off in June and July. Tier 1 could take place in July and August. Small bit of overlap between them. Each Tier gets its own period and therefore would get top media billing at that time. Lots of county football on tv and each tier featured. The remainder of this bundle of shit is not even worthy of comment.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on June 25, 2019, 09:57:11 AM
Quote from: five points on June 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
The Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II.

"Some county managers and players had expressed hope that they could still enter the qualifiers and if they didn't progress past the second round could then turn their attention to a second-tier competition.

But this has been knocked on the head and will not be on a Central Council or subsequently Special Congress agenda."

The bit in bold is what I would have supported 100%. All counties get to compete in their provincial championships, and get a run in the qualifiers (rounds 1 and 2) before dropping down to tier 2. And, having the tier 2 finals on the same day (grand finals extravaganza kind of deal) along with the minors. CP holds 82k. Introduce some kind of loyalty scheme and the stadium should be able to hold those who travel to most games.

No option of dropping into qualifiers and holding the finals in July is a real kicker for me. Because in a particular year, certain counties are not able to compete in tier 1, they shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens, but afforded the same time, respect and exposure as those pushing for Sam.

And on and on we go...must work out how I'm gonna watch the 2 x Rupert Murdoch games this weekend.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2019, 09:57:11 AM
Quote from: five points on June 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
The Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II.

"Some county managers and players had expressed hope that they could still enter the qualifiers and if they didn't progress past the second round could then turn their attention to a second-tier competition.

But this has been knocked on the head and will not be on a Central Council or subsequently Special Congress agenda."

The bit in bold is what I would have supported 100%. All counties get to compete in their provincial championships, and get a run in the qualifiers (rounds 1 and 2) before dropping down to tier 2. And, having the tier 2 finals on the same day (grand finals extravaganza kind of deal) along with the minors. CP holds 82k. Introduce some kind of loyalty scheme and the stadium should be able to hold those who travel to most games.

No option of dropping into qualifiers and holding the finals in July is a real kicker for me. Because in a particular year, certain counties are not able to compete in tier 1, they shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens, but afforded the same time, respect and exposure as those pushing for Sam.

And on and on we go...must work out how I'm gonna watch the 2 x Rupert Murdoch games this weekend.

Of course they should be treated like second class citizens!!!

If you are a crap football team you need to get treated like crap, stuffed and sent home, not spend an interminable summer playing other dogshit teams in some Mickey Mouse competition than no supporter will bother their hole going to and that no player will put in a single ounce's worth of effort to compete in. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 10:51:32 AM
Leitrim hurlers burst themselves with effort, training etc and were delighted to play in and win the bottom tier of hurling.
The Sligo bucks looked fairly happy winning the Rackard Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 25, 2019, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 10:51:32 AM
Leitrim hurlers burst themselves with effort, training etc and were delighted to play in and win the bottom tier of hurling.
The Sligo bucks looked fairly happy winning the Rackard Cup.

The fact that someone will end up winning the thing is scant justification on its own terms for any proposed new competition. Maybe make it like the handball where there are so many All Ireland competitions that we've lost count.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2019, 09:57:11 AM
Quote from: five points on June 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-proposal-suggests-july-finish-to-competition-38250359.html
The Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II.

"Some county managers and players had expressed hope that they could still enter the qualifiers and if they didn't progress past the second round could then turn their attention to a second-tier competition.

But this has been knocked on the head and will not be on a Central Council or subsequently Special Congress agenda."

The bit in bold is what I would have supported 100%. All counties get to compete in their provincial championships, and get a run in the qualifiers (rounds 1 and 2) before dropping down to tier 2. And, having the tier 2 finals on the same day (grand finals extravaganza kind of deal) along with the minors. CP holds 82k. Introduce some kind of loyalty scheme and the stadium should be able to hold those who travel to most games.

No option of dropping into qualifiers and holding the finals in July is a real kicker for me. Because in a particular year, certain counties are not able to compete in tier 1, they shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens, but afforded the same time, respect and exposure as those pushing for Sam.

And on and on we go...must work out how I'm gonna watch the 2 x Rupert Murdoch games this weekend.

Of course they should be treated like second class citizens!!!

If you are a crap football team you need to get treated like crap, stuffed and sent home, not spend an interminable summer playing other dogshit teams in some Mickey Mouse competition than no supporter will bother their hole going to and that no player will put in a single ounce's worth of effort to compete in.

Intermediate and junior club players put in a huge amount of effort to win championships. Their supporters follow them loyally. They are not good enough to be in senior but it doesn't mean they can't have something they can enter with genuine hope of winning. Why can that not work at county level. It works well at county hurling, county camogie and ladies football. The only strand of gaa where there is no tiering is county football and it is completely illogical.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 25, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 10:55:40 AM

Intermediate and junior club players put in a huge amount of effort to win championships. Their supporters follow them loyally. They are not good enough to be in senior but it doesn't mean they can't have something they can enter with genuine hope of winning. Why can that not work at county level. It works well at county hurling, county camogie and ladies football. The only strand of gaa where there is no tiering is county football and it is completely illogical.

One reason intermediate and junior won't work at county level as high-level team sport these days is an expensive business requiring considerable public support to make it financially viable.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 11:06:21 AM
Obviously a goodly number of players and managers, County Officials etc must be buying into a " 2nd tier" seeing as it's still under serious consideration.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 25, 2019, 11:08:05 AM
I now hope it's brought in so we can put an end to the conversation about it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 25, 2019, 11:14:42 AM
do tg4 show junior and intermediate club championships
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
That Keyser seems to be an expert on shit. ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
That Keyser seems to be an expert on shit. ::)

He's talking plenty of it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.

I know half a dozen people that attended that game, the majority of these people go to every Derry match in the full regalia, would struggle to take you to half the club grounds in the county as they happily admit they never watch club football. 

They are happy to get a day out at a Derry match and it doesn't appear to bother them too much if we win lose or draw other than whether they have an excuse for another day out.

It was abundantly clear from the players demeanour that they were embarassed at being presented with that cup, and rightly so, as indeed any self respecting player or supporter should be.   

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2019, 01:00:06 PM
Why did they win it then?
It's the only adult County Cup or medal most of them ever won or will win.
It's not 1993 any more.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.

I know half a dozen people that attended that game, the majority of these people go to every Derry match in the full regalia, would struggle to take you to half the club grounds in the county as they happily admit they never watch club football. 

They are happy to get a day out at a Derry match and it doesn't appear to bother them too much if we win lose or draw other than whether they have an excuse for another day out.

It was abundantly clear from the players demeanour that they were embarassed at being presented with that cup, and rightly so, as indeed any self respecting player or supporter should be.   

You're essentially saying that 2/3 of our association (ie the club intermediate and junior players) shouldn't even bother playing because they should be embarrassed and ashamed to be playing on crap teams. All county division 3 and 4 county teams likewise. Interesting viewpoint thankfully not shared by too many.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 25, 2019, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
You're essentially saying that 2/3 of our association (ie the club intermediate and junior players) shouldn't even bother playing because they should be embarrassed and ashamed to be playing on crap teams. All county division 3 and 4 county teams likewise. Interesting viewpoint thankfully not shared by too many.
He didn't say that of course.

It's quite natural that players in counties used to playing in Divisions 1 & 2 would be dismayed to be relegated to Division 4.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.

I know half a dozen people that attended that game, the majority of these people go to every Derry match in the full regalia, would struggle to take you to half the club grounds in the county as they happily admit they never watch club football. 

They are happy to get a day out at a Derry match and it doesn't appear to bother them too much if we win lose or draw other than whether they have an excuse for another day out.

It was abundantly clear from the players demeanour that they were embarassed at being presented with that cup, and rightly so, as indeed any self respecting player or supporter should be.   

You're essentially saying that 2/3 of our association (ie the club intermediate and junior players) shouldn't even bother playing because they should be embarrassed and ashamed to be playing on crap teams. All county division 3 and 4 county teams likewise. Interesting viewpoint thankfully not shared by too many.

There aren't too many playing any level of club football this summer in Derry what with the 11 week break in the leagues. And there would be less if it was up to you, as long as you get to pull on your Derry jersey every weekend you will be happy. So I don'tr see any point in debating with you about club football as you clearly have zero interest in it.

We have already been beat twice in the championship this summer and you want us to get more games, I could guarantee that if Derry were entering a second tier at this stage there wouldn't be any appetite amongst the players for it. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 25, 2019, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.

I know half a dozen people that attended that game, the majority of these people go to every Derry match in the full regalia, would struggle to take you to half the club grounds in the county as they happily admit they never watch club football. 

They are happy to get a day out at a Derry match and it doesn't appear to bother them too much if we win lose or draw other than whether they have an excuse for another day out.

It was abundantly clear from the players demeanour that they were embarassed at being presented with that cup, and rightly so, as indeed any self respecting player or supporter should be.   

You're essentially saying that 2/3 of our association (ie the club intermediate and junior players) shouldn't even bother playing because they should be embarrassed and ashamed to be playing on crap teams. All county division 3 and 4 county teams likewise. Interesting viewpoint thankfully not shared by too many.

There aren't too many playing any level of club football this summer in Derry what with the 11 week break in the leagues. And there would be less if it was up to you, as long as you get to pull on your Derry jersey every weekend you will be happy. So I don'tr see any point in debating with you about club football as you clearly have zero interest in it.

We have already been beat twice in the championship this summer and you want us to get more games, I could guarantee that if Derry were entering a second tier at this stage there wouldn't be any appetite amongst the players for it.

You obviously have zero interest as there have been plenty of matches going on during the 11 week break in the league. Great idea to keep players occupied with plenty of games. We've given lots of young players game time and integrated them into the senior set up. On another issue you haven't been debating, you've just kept repeating the same point.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: lenny on June 25, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 25, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
There's a couple of Derry men on here rabidly espousing the introduction of Tiers, do you not realise that Derry will be in the dogshit ranks, have we not have had a shitty enough year without prolonging it any further by beating some other shit teams in a shit competition. Though I suppose it will give us an opportunity to develop some young players as anyone who is worth a f**k would be pissing off to America rather than endure the humiliation of playing for the dogshit cup.

Derry would start off in junior or intermediate which is appropriate for our ability at the moment. I would prefer us to be there than in senior where we have no chance to win anything and are getting our asses handed to us regularly over the last 5 or 6 years. Would you call junior or intermediate club championships dogshit cups?

We can't get our best players to commit to train and play for us as it is, how dyu think we will manage to do that if we are playing in a Mickey Mouse cup. We have been getting our ass handed to us because we are not good enough, we should take it like men instead of seeking the fig leaf of some second rate competition.

It was like that Div 4 final, it was embarassing to see Chrissy going up to collect that cup and you could see it was humiliating for the players to have to be there to play in it.

Maybe the players aren't committing because they know they are going to have to train hard with no chance of success. They are literally giving up so many ordinary things in their lives to be a county player and with no remote chance of reward in the form of success. That is why they are not committing and who could blame them. Put them at the level they should be playing at with a chance of success and a realistic training schedule and most would commit. I don't see any junior or intermediate club players not committing for their teams just because they're not playing at senior level. I enjoyed the Division 4 final and wasn't the least embarrassed. It was great to see Derry winning a final in croke park. I'm sure the players really enjoyed that part of the season also.

I know half a dozen people that attended that game, the majority of these people go to every Derry match in the full regalia, would struggle to take you to half the club grounds in the county as they happily admit they never watch club football. 

They are happy to get a day out at a Derry match and it doesn't appear to bother them too much if we win lose or draw other than whether they have an excuse for another day out.

It was abundantly clear from the players demeanour that they were embarassed at being presented with that cup, and rightly so, as indeed any self respecting player or supporter should be.   

You're essentially saying that 2/3 of our association (ie the club intermediate and junior players) shouldn't even bother playing because they should be embarrassed and ashamed to be playing on crap teams. All county division 3 and 4 county teams likewise. Interesting viewpoint thankfully not shared by too many.

There aren't too many playing any level of club football this summer in Derry what with the 11 week break in the leagues. And there would be less if it was up to you, as long as you get to pull on your Derry jersey every weekend you will be happy. So I don'tr see any point in debating with you about club football as you clearly have zero interest in it.

We have already been beat twice in the championship this summer and you want us to get more games, I could guarantee that if Derry were entering a second tier at this stage there wouldn't be any appetite amongst the players for it.

You obviously have zero interest as there have been plenty of matches going on during the 11 week break in the league. Great idea to keep players occupied with plenty of games. We've given lots of young players game time and integrated them into the senior set up. On another issue you haven't been debating, you've just kept repeating the same point.

Well I suppose the phrase 'keep players occupied' for 3 months in the summer sums up the level of commitment to club players in your thinking. You sure are fond of these second rate competitions I will give you that. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 08:30:35 PM
The final of a two tier championship should be held before the final of the the Tier 1 competition. Teams should be promoted/relegated between the tiers. RTÉ must air games from both tiers. Give some of the games to Virgin and TG4 if necessary.

Proposal for a two tier championship:

Tier 1

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6. The team who finishes top advances to the semi-finals. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish bottom are relegated.

Tier 2

20 teams split into 4 groups of 5. The team who finishes top advances to the quarter-finals. The next two teams advance to the preliminary quarter-finals.

Tier 1

Group A

Donegal
Cavan
Tyrone
Kerry
Meath
Galway

Group B

Fermanagh
Kildare
Roscommon
Dublin
Monaghan
Mayo

Tier 2

Group A

Westmeath
Armagh
Longford
Tipperary
Wicklow

Group B

Derry
Carlow
Cork
Laois
Waterford

Group C

Down
Limerick
Clare
Wexford
Louth

Group D

Offaly
Antrim
Sligo
Leitrim
London

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 27, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 08:30:35 PM
The final of a two tier championship should be held before the final of the the Tier 1 competition. Teams should be promoted/relegated between the tiers. RTÉ must air games from both tiers. Give some of the games to Virgin and TG4 if necessary.

Proposal for a two tier championship:

Tier 1

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6. The team who finishes top advances to the semi-finals. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish bottom are relegated.

Tier 2

20 teams split into 4 groups of 5. The team who finishes top advances to the quarter-finals. The next two teams advance to the preliminary quarter-finals.

Tier 1

Group A

Donegal
Cavan
Tyrone
Kerry
Meath
Galway

Group B

Fermanagh
Kildare
Roscommon
Dublin
Monaghan
Mayo

Tier 2

Group A

Westmeath
Armagh
Longford
Tipperary
Wicklow

Group B

Derry
Carlow
Cork
Laois
Waterford

Group C

Down
Limerick
Clare
Wexford
Louth

Group D

Offaly
Antrim
Sligo
Leitrim
London

A structure like that would work well. The key would be running it off with games every week. It does my head in teams having 5 or 6 weeks between championship games. As long as it's run off over the minimum time frame it would leave time for club football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:33:16 PM
So do each team play the others once or twice? If it's once, that's already an imbalance, 3H 2A etc. Same as the NFL, which I always thought was imbalanced.

Any round robin system has to be playing each team, home and away.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 27, 2019, 09:14:38 PM

A structure like that would work well. The key would be running it off with games every week. It does my head in teams having 5 or 6 weeks between championship games. As long as it's run off over the minimum time frame it would leave time for club football.

Galway had a 3 week break in the hurling last year. We would probably be looking at a 2 or 3 week break in both tiers. Every team gets a minimum of 4/5 games and a maximum of 8/9 games. Some people have called for a three tier championship. The finals for tiers 2 and 3 could be held before the semi-finals of the Sam Maguire. I'd envision the same format for a two or three tier championship. Not that it matters because the GAA will probably go with Tommy Murphy 2.0.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:33:16 PM
So do each team play the others once or twice? If it's once, that's already an imbalance, 3H 2A etc. Same as the NFL, which I always thought was imbalanced.

Any round robin system has to be playing each team, home and away.

2 home, 2 away, and 1 neutral. For example, Westmeath and Longford could play in Navan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:52:30 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:33:16 PM
So do each team play the others once or twice? If it's once, that's already an imbalance, 3H 2A etc. Same as the NFL, which I always thought was imbalanced.

Any round robin system has to be playing each team, home and away.

2 home, 2 away, and 1 neutral. For example, Westmeath and Longford could play in Navan.

And Dublin could play their neutral game in, er... Croke Park?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:33:16 PM


And Dublin could play their neutral game in, er... Croke Park?

They could be forced to use another ground depending on who they are playing. They do like to travel after all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 10:40:13 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 27, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 27, 2019, 09:33:16 PM


And Dublin could play their neutral game in, er... Croke Park?

They could be forced to use another ground depending on who they are playing. They do like to travel after all.

In the same way they were forced to use another ground in the Super 8's?  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2019, 12:04:58 AM
You're mean spirited Benny!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 29, 2019, 03:37:09 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0629/1059207-gaa-set-out-tier-2-championship-proposals/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2019, 03:41:07 PM
And a condensed Club AI series.

https://www.shannonside.ie/sport/featured-sport/ard-chomhairle-puts-forward-tier-two-proposals/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 29, 2019, 03:59:55 PM
A load of balls.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 29, 2019, 04:05:59 PM
May as well call it the Tommy Murphy cup version 2.  Not before time that AI club series is condensed.  What will be played on March 17th in Croke Park now i'd wonder? time to bring back the railway cup  ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 29, 2019, 04:10:08 PM
Proposal A = Tommy Murphy 2.0. The GAA are showing favouritism to Division 1 and 2 teams. Proposal B is slightly better. At least the Tier 2 champions will be rewarded with a place in Tier 1, although they haven't explained which team in Tier 1 will take the place of the Tier 2 champions. The champions of Tier 2 will qualify for Tier 1 under both proposals.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on June 29, 2019, 09:23:08 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships.

I said the above over 2 years ago.
Those "new " proposals are exactly what I feared.

Honesty both those proposals are unbelievable......
It's the Tommy Murphy cup just rehashed.
Shows really how out of touch the top brass in the Gaa are and how little they care about the counties outside the top division
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 29, 2019, 11:24:27 PM
The GAA should copy the format used by the LGFA. Put the finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships on before the Senior semi-finals or hold all three finals on the same weekend. All of the finals must be shown on RTÉ.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 29, 2019, 11:28:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 29, 2019, 09:23:08 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships.

I said the above over 2 years ago.
Those "new " proposals are exactly what I feared.

Honesty both those proposals are unbelievable......
It's the Tommy Murphy cup just rehashed.
Shows really how out of touch the top brass in the Gaa are and how little they care about the counties outside the top division


100% agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2019, 11:55:00 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 29, 2019, 04:10:08 PM
Proposal A = Tommy Murphy 2.0. The GAA are showing favouritism to Division 1 and 2 teams. Proposal B is slightly better. At least the Tier 2 champions will be rewarded with a place in Tier 1, although they haven't explained which team in Tier 1 will take the place of the Tier 2 champions.
Read it again buckeen.
Both proposals provide for Tier 2 winners to be in Tier 1 the year after.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
I'm sure the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Armagh would be very glad of a Tommy Murphy 2.0 in the cabinet. They don't get much of a chance at silverware after all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on June 30, 2019, 12:14:04 AM
Will county boards spend money on tier 2 training expenses, travel, meals, and so on? 

How many extra training sessions - will players even commit to the new competition?

Who gets the gate receipts?

Will HQ assist with expenses?





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on June 30, 2019, 12:18:35 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
I'm sure the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Armagh would be very glad of a Tommy Murphy 2.0 in the cabinet. They don't get much of a chance at silverware after all.
Quit the wind up. We're after giving a Division one team a hiding and coming within a whisker of another today. Playing in some B competition would be an insult.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 30, 2019, 12:14:04 AM
Will county boards spend money on tier 2 training expenses, travel, meals, and so on?  THEY DO FOR THE HURLEY STUFF LOWER TIERS.

How many extra training sessions - will players even commit to the new competition? I IMAGINE IF THERE WAS ANY EVIDENCE THEY  WOULDN'T COMMIT THE PROPOSAL WOULDNT HAVE GOT THIS FAR

Who gets the gate receipts? CENTRAL COUNCIL SAME AS QUALIFIERS AND ALL IRELAND SERIES.

Will HQ assist with expenses? HMMMMM....? PRESUMABLY THE SAKE MATCH DAY GRANT AS COUNTUES GET NOW.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Over the Bar on June 30, 2019, 12:37:04 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on June 30, 2019, 12:18:35 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
I'm sure the likes of Fermanagh, Leitrim or Armagh would be very glad of a Tommy Murphy 2.0 in the cabinet. They don't get much of a chance at silverware after all.
Quit the wind up. We're after giving a Division one team a hiding and coming within a whisker of another today. Playing in some B competition would be an insult.

So do you think MO'R resigned cos he reckons Armagh are gonna sweep the boards for years or cos he realises  the Farney's limited challenge at the top is all done?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2019, 06:37:57 AM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 29, 2019, 04:10:08 PM
Proposal A = Tommy Murphy 2.0. The GAA are showing favouritism to Division 1 and 2 teams. Proposal B is slightly better. At least the Tier 2 champions will be rewarded with a place in Tier 1, although they haven't explained which team in Tier 1 will take the place of the Tier 2 champions.
It's the teams who finish at the bottom end of Div2, who make up the places until there are 16 in Tier 2. It'll certainly make the league more important in Divs 2 and 3.

Good idea to bring the club finals to January.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on June 30, 2019, 06:44:18 AM
club finals should be on a saturday
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2019, 07:25:24 AM
Did any of ye moaning about it read the details?
Everybody starts in the Provincials. Instead of going into the qualifiers,  losing D3 and 4
go into the new competition which is knockout. That is proposal A. The other version would have
a back door for the second tier

Also

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0629/1059207-gaa-set-out-tier-2-championship-proposals/
« The finals under both proposals would take place at Croke Park and an additional prize for the winner of the final under both proposals would be a place reserved in the following year's All-Ireland Sam Maguire championship, irrespective of their league position.

It is also envisaged that both proposals would have dedicated broadcast coverage and a marketing and promotional campaign with a dedicated All-Star selection and tour. »


The media aspect is huge.
It won't be a caste system set in stone

The last 2 places in D2/ First 2 in d3 will become very important .
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 30, 2019, 06:37:57 AM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 29, 2019, 04:10:08 PM
Proposal A = Tommy Murphy 2.0. The GAA are showing favouritism to Division 1 and 2 teams. Proposal B is slightly better. At least the Tier 2 champions will be rewarded with a place in Tier 1, although they haven't explained which team in Tier 1 will take the place of the Tier 2 champions.
It's the teams who finish at the bottom end of Div2, who make up the places until there are 16 in Tier 2. It'll certainly make the league more important in Divs 2 and 3.

Good idea to bring the club finals to January.

The team who finishes bottom in Division 2 drops into Tier 2 if a Division 3 or 4 team reaches their provincial final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 01:57:14 PM
The 2 relegated teams from D2 will already be in Tier 2 so it will be 6th in D2?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 01:57:14 PM
The 2 relegated teams from D2 will already be in Tier 2 so it will be 6th in D2?

The team who finishes bottom in Division 2 will still be in Tier 1 unless a Division 3 or 4 team reaches their provincial final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:31:10 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 30, 2019, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 30, 2019, 12:14:04 AM
How many extra training sessions - will players even commit to the new competition? I IMAGINE IF THERE WAS ANY EVIDENCE THEY  WOULDN'T COMMIT THE PROPOSAL WOULDNT HAVE GOT THIS FAR
What makes you imagine that? The evidence should be taken from the last time they ran this very competition. Nobody cared. Players didn't bother. It was crap. It had to go.
A bit like Antrim......
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 03:34:08 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

Where are you getting that information from? This format isn't fair. The two sides promoted from Division 3 should be in Tier 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:52:22 PM
They are( as I said).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2019, 03:54:06 PM
It's good that they are retaining the provincials imo
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 03:58:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:52:22 PM
They are( as I said).

They aren't. Tipperary would still be in Tier 1 this year because all the provincial finalists were Division 1 and 2 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 30, 2019, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2019, 03:54:06 PM
It's good that they are retaining the provincials imo

Maybe Ulster and Connacht. But what's the point of the other two?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 30, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?

They will be in a competition they have a chance of winning.
They will avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed by Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Donegal.
Teams can develop and bring through young players by playing at their own level.
Why would they vote against the proposals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on June 30, 2019, 08:52:27 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 30, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?

They will be in a competition they have a chance of winning.
They will avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed by Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Donegal.
Teams can develop and bring through young players by playing at their own level.
Why would they vote against the proposals?

Players left for America for the summer instead of playing the Tommy Murphy Cup. No one wants this shite, they can f**k off.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:57:35 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 30, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?

They will be in a competition they have a chance of winning.
They will avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed by Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Donegal.
Teams can develop and bring through young players by playing at their own level.
Why would they vote against the proposals?

1) The Division 4 teams won't be in a competition which they have a chance of winning.

2) The Division 3/4 teams will not avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed. Leitrim/Sligo will still play against Galway and Mayo in Connacht.

3) Let's use a format which has been tried and tested in the other Gaelic games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 30, 2019, 09:06:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 30, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?

They will be in a competition they have a chance of winning.
They will avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed by Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Donegal.
Teams can develop and bring through young players by playing at their own level.
Why would they vote against the proposals?

In recent years in the championship Kerry stuffed Div 1 Kildare, scoring 7 goals. Div 1 Roscommon got tanked by Tyrone.

Dublin have stuffed Div 1 teams Roscommon, Galway, Tyrone, Kildare, Monaghan  and now Meath.

That's all between Div 1 teams. The top 8. How do you stop those tankings?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer
When it was 1st before CC it was said that promoted teams from D3 would be classed as D2 /Tiet 1.
Either that's been changed or RTE have got it wrong.
Sure it wont be happening anyway as Hardstation and Bennycake will stop it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 10:05:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer
When it was 1st before CC it was said that promoted teams from D3 would be classed as D2 /Tiet 1.
Either that's been changed or RTE have got it wrong.
Sure it wont be happening anyway as Hardstation and Bennycake will stop it.

https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/gaa-ard-chomhairle-puts-forward-two-separate-tier-2-all-ireland-sfc-proposals/

QuoteA key difference is that in the event that a Division 3 or 4 team do reach a Provincial Final, to make up 16 teams in Tier 2 their place in Tier 2 would be taken by the lowest ranked Division 2 team from that year's Allianz league.

RTÉ are right.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 30, 2019, 10:22:56 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 30, 2019, 09:06:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on June 30, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on June 30, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer

Why would any team in Division 3 vote for these proposals?

They will be in a competition they have a chance of winning.
They will avoid the embarrassment of being destroyed by Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Donegal.
Teams can develop and bring through young players by playing at their own level.
Why would they vote against the proposals?

In recent years in the championship Kerry stuffed Div 1 Kildare, scoring 7 goals. Div 1 Roscommon got tanked by Tyrone.

Dublin have stuffed Div 1 teams Roscommon, Galway, Tyrone, Kildare, Monaghan  and now Meath.

That's all between Div 1 teams. The top 8. How do you stop those tankings?

Those were unexpected tankings. What it would be good to avoid are the totally predictable tankings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ringfort on June 30, 2019, 10:33:34 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 30, 2019, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 30, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 30, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
The 2 sides promoted from D3 will be considered D2 then and will be Tier 1.

That's not what it says in the rte article

QuoteUnder the new proposals, Division 3 finalists Westmeath and Laois would have played in a Tier 2 championship rather than the All-Ireland qualifiers this summer
When it was 1st before CC it was said that promoted teams from D3 would be classed as D2 /Tiet 1.
Either that's been changed or RTE have got it wrong.
Sure it wont be happening anyway as Hardstation and Bennycake will stop it.
It will happen. Amazingly, in such a democratic association, the top brass always seem to get what they want. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
My county and many others can forget about county football when it does happen. There will be zero progression and eventually zero interest. Club football will win though.

I'll content myself with the Tommy Murphy Final DVD from yesteryear.

What 'progression' are you enjoying at the moment? Is just by virtue of theoretically being in the hunt for Sam bringing on loads of young fellas in Antrim? Any weaker county (I include my own as one of these) should target their provincial championship first and foremost. Its attainable.

If not achieved why would players not want to continue to play championship at their own level in a sort of 'intermediate' competition?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 30, 2019, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 30, 2019, 10:24:43 PM
Dublin stuffing Roscommon, Meath & Kildare is unexpected?

Talk balls.

Expected or not, it involved teams in the top 8 or 9. If there's a tier 1 and 2 created, what happens when the top 8 teams trounce each other? Will the GAA reduce tier 1 to 4 teams? Or 3 maybe?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 30, 2019, 10:47:45 PM
Quote from: hardstation on June 30, 2019, 10:38:20 PM
It is a joke competition that nobody has any interest in as has been proven.
The gap between tier 1 and tier 2 will widen. The same teams will fluctuate between the 2. Players will opt out.
We've fecking been here!

But ye will have the chance to win a National title, that won't be shown on TV and will get little or no Media coverage. You will be hidden away from headquarters, with no worry of them having to fund you. They can spend their money on the big boys who will bring in the big sponsorship, the big TV Rights fees, the corporate box sales, the season ticket sales and the big attendances.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on July 01, 2019, 12:19:47 AM
There is an obvious need for Tiers in the hurling championship – top tier hurling is limited to a geographical area – Munster, South Leinster and outposts in the west (Galway) and in the north (Antrim).  Club and county teams outside the hurling strongholds can never attain the skills to match those of teams within the hurling strongholds. This argument does NOT hold for Gaelic Football.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that current Division 4 teams such as Antrim and Wicklow could compete at the top level of intercounty football. It would obviously take some time and need a lot of things to fall into place – progress at underage, good management structure, player commitment etc. Both counties have produced All-Ireland Club Champions – St Galls and Baltinglass.

In my opinion the plan to introduce a 2nd Tier in the All-Ireland Football Championship is a big mistake and a backward step. Anybody that thinks that it won't mirror the failure of the All-Ireland B Football Championship (1990s) and The Tommy Murphy Cup (2000s) is deluding themselves – try looking up the Roll of Honour for these competitions. With the best will in the world you will never get 100% commitment for a 2nd Tier All-Ireland Football Championship – a significant element of players and supporters simply do not have the appetite for it.

What we have now and what can be improved upon is a National Football League with 4 Divisions/Tiers based on merit. Play the NFL in Spring & early Summer feeding into "Super 8s". Let the All-Ireland Championship revert to straight knockout like before the backdoor was introduced.
It was interesting that on tonight's Sunday Game there was no analysis on one of the qualifier matches – that between Division 3 teams Laois and Offaly. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hawkeye9212 on July 01, 2019, 01:00:57 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on July 01, 2019, 12:19:47 AM
There is an obvious need for Tiers in the hurling championship – top tier hurling is limited to a geographical area – Munster, South Leinster and outposts in the west (Galway) and in the north (Antrim).  Club and county teams outside the hurling strongholds can never attain the skills to match those of teams within the hurling strongholds. This argument does NOT hold for Gaelic Football.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that current Division 4 teams such as Antrim and Wicklow could compete at the top level of intercounty football. It would obviously take some time and need a lot of things to fall into place – progress at underage, good management structure, player commitment etc. Both counties have produced All-Ireland Club Champions – St Galls and Baltinglass.

In my opinion the plan to introduce a 2nd Tier in the All-Ireland Football Championship is a big mistake and a backward step. Anybody that thinks that it won't mirror the failure of the All-Ireland B Football Championship (1990s) and The Tommy Murphy Cup (2000s) is deluding themselves – try looking up the Roll of Honour for these competitions. With the best will in the world you will never get 100% commitment for a 2nd Tier All-Ireland Football Championship – a significant element of players and supporters simply do not have the appetite for it.

What we have now and what can be improved upon is a National Football League with 4 Divisions/Tiers based on merit. Play the NFL in Spring & early Summer feeding into "Super 8s". Let the All-Ireland Championship revert to straight knockout like before the backdoor was introduced.
It was interesting that on tonight's Sunday Game there was no analysis on one of the qualifier matches – that between Division 3 teams Laois and Offaly.

Football does need tiers. The Division 4 teams could compete at the top level of inter county football but it is highly unlikely. Both Sligo and Wicklow are competing at a higher level in hurling. Their hurlers have tasted success. The same cannot be said for their footballers. Baltinglass won the All-Ireland SCFC in 1990. One successful club won't result in Wicklow being able to compete at the top level of inter county football. Slaughtneil have proven that clubs from outside the hurling strongholds can compete at the top level. They just need to be supported. Unfortunately, hurlers the football strongholds are too often disregarded by the county boards. The same thing happens to footballers in the hurling strongholds.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on July 01, 2019, 07:16:29 AM
Just have an open draw 32 teams its the fairest way of course youll get matchcups like dublin v carlow but that would even out with matchups like antrim v limerick

example if there a match up like antrim v limerick and  wicklow v derry  if they get drawing against each other one of those 4 are in a quarter final already what would u rather be in an all ireland quarter final or some b cup

They new proposals are all about elitism and money men

playing for your country should be seen as a privilage and a novelty and they play enough times in the league anyone

a straight knockout all ireland may also make the league more prestigious aswell

I would make the league have one semi final aswell the league winners get bye to final 2nd and 3rd would play a semi final to get into final that makes finishing top of league a priority
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on July 01, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
play provincials in january or febuary get rid of mckenna cup etc  provincial boards can make their own format for provincial championships

if it was me i would make ulster 3 groups of 3 group winner and best 2nd place team are in semi finals 


You could play the ulster final under lights on a saturday night in january or febuary i think it would be great
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on July 01, 2019, 07:31:50 AM
I also think play the club finals on st stephens day i think it be good in st stepehns day st stephens day has that saturday feel about it anyway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: recyclebin on July 01, 2019, 08:15:08 AM
An open draw would not work as the distance could be huge and fans won't go. An open draw based on regions for the first two rounds might work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 11:26:02 AM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cork-and-tipp-could-get-second-tier-reprieve-934395.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 11:40:45 AM
Quote from: irish345 on July 01, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
You could play the ulster final under lights on a saturday night in january or febuary i think it would be great

Great to watch on the telly. If you're sitting out in the open in the pissing rain/hail on a wooden bench, not so. If you're playing in it, it will be still the McKenna Cup final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on July 03, 2019, 11:48:04 AM
If you took Dublin out of the equation (hypothetically), this years All Ireland would be wide open and there'd be far less talk of tiers.  Ironic that Dublin's dominance will penalise weaker counties who will disappear into a 2nd tier competition which will attract very little interest.  No tiers thank you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 03, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
It seems that most of you are forgetting that this proposal does not prevent any county from winning the AI final.  It just means you get one chance instead of two if knocked out before prov final.  It then gives you a chance to win a national title against a comparably ranked opponent.  Only change I would make is an incentive for the winner to rejoin the top tier though that would be tough given the timelines.  As a former county footballer from a "weaker" county I would prefer this option and it seems more people are feeling the same way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on July 03, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
Giving weaker teams only one chance in the championship has been unsuccessfully tried before.

In 2007, Division 4 teams were eliminated from the championship if they lost in the provinces.

I recall that the Dublin v Offaly in that year's Leinster semi-final was one such match, where Offaly knew they would be out if they lost, and lose they did.

Nobody cared about the Tommy Cooper Cup that year, and nor did they care any other year.

The rule was scrapped after one year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on July 03, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?

I see your point, because in club football every team that is in junior stays there as with intermediate and senior. There is no movement between the levels so you're probably right.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?

I see your point, because in club football every team that is in junior stays there as with intermediate and senior. There is no movement between the levels so you're probably right.

I haven't a clue what your point is. The intercounty championship gives lower-ranked counties an opportunity to make progress in a manner that can kickstart more sustained improvement in both league and championship. The national leagues don't do that (nobody really cares if they win or lose a Div 3 or 4 final) and the Tommy Cooper Cup never did either.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
How did playing and losing Qualifier games make Cavan better?
Was it not ,like ourselves, decent minor and u21 teams over a few years.
We were in D 4 in 2010.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 01:52:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
How did playing and losing Qualifier games make Cavan better?
???

We didn't lose any qualifier games in 2013.

Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
We were in D 4 in 2010.

And won the provincial championship, by beating London, Leitrim and Sligo. That same year, we'd have had to beat Fermanagh, Monaghan and Tyrone to do likewise. Sauce for the gander and all that.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on July 03, 2019, 02:56:40 PM
If based on Division 2 positions at the start of the seasons, Down and Derry will be in the second tier next year if they don't reach the Ulster Final.  For two teams that gave both Mayo and Tyrone damn good games this year in the Qualifiers and Ulster Championship, can anyone explain to me what this is meant to do for interest in inter-county football in either Down or Derry.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest drubbings of the year so far was handed down to Meath in the Leinster Final and they will certainly be competing in the top tier next year (and the following year also at least). 

Cork meanwhile will play in Division 3 next year, but have a far better chance of reaching a provincial final than Down or Derry do in Ulster, and in most years they will play in Tier 1 regardless of league position.

The reality is that for the last four years we have had one team in the country way ahead of the rest.  That is the only line we can safely draw at the moment.  Yes, the best of the rest are a long way ahead of the worst.  However, the gaps are graduated and there isn't a natural line of demarcation between the bottom of Division 2 and the top of Division 3.  On their day, a team at the relegated from Division 2 (Cork) will have a damn good chance of beating a team at the bottom of Division 1 (Cavan).  A team in the middle of Division 3 (Longford) will stand a good chance of beating a Division 2 team (Kildare). 

The whole concept is a pile of crap and the more I hear from John Horan the less confidence I have in him.  A bullshitter!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on July 03, 2019, 03:12:49 PM
If only we had someone that worked as a bookie to calculate notional odds of games between tier 1 and tier 2 teams, then they could fill in the chart below.  There used to be a guy called LoneShark on here. If you had a reliable person calculating the odds, you could look at this much more scientifically. 

(https://i.ibb.co/gZHk6GZ/odds.png)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Quote from: APM on July 03, 2019, 02:56:40 PM
If based on Division 2 positions at the start of the seasons, Down and Derry will be in the second tier next year if they don't reach the Ulster Final.  For two teams that gave both Mayo and Tyrone damn good games this year in the Qualifiers and Ulster Championship, can anyone explain to me what this is meant to do for interest in inter-county football in either Down or Derry.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest drubbings of the year so far was handed down to Meath in the Leinster Final and they will certainly be competing in the top tier next year (and the following year also at least). 

Cork meanwhile will play in Division 3 next year, but have a far better chance of reaching a provincial final than Down or Derry do in Ulster, and in most years they will play in Tier 1 regardless of league position.

The reality is that for the last four years we have had one team in the country way ahead of the rest.  That is the only line we can safely draw at the moment.  Yes, the best of the rest are a long way ahead of the worst.  However, the gaps are graduated and there isn't a natural line of demarcation between the bottom of Division 2 and the top of Division 3.  On their day, a team at the relegated from Division 2 (Cork) will have a damn good chance of beating a team at the bottom of Division 1 (Cavan).  A team in the middle of Division 3 (Longford) will stand a good chance of beating a Division 2 team (Kildare). 

The whole concept is a pile of crap and the more I hear from John Horan the less confidence I have in him.  A bullshitter!!
Yeah well it works at club level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on July 03, 2019, 04:02:46 PM
horan said the provincials have to be kept and its unbalanced but thats they way it is he said

Thats there problem there insistence to to keep provincials linked to all ireland



i came up with another hypothetical idea today Open Draw all ireland knockout 32 - 34 teams if you count new york london and if kilkenny enter

Except the 4 provincial winners are seeded they cant meet untill semi Final that makes winning your province a slight advantage and still gives a bit more prestige to winning province

i still prefer the open draw no seeds knockout tho
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 04:12:51 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Sorry, I thought my jest was obvious.

The "it works at club level" seems to be the go-to argument when all else has been said.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:30:19 PM
Quote
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.

How many did they have at it?

Quote
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

Everybody loves it when they win. But how many Leitrim people know the name of the cup they won a fortnight ago? I'm not even sure myself was it the Lory Meagher or the Nicky Rackard.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on July 03, 2019, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: irish345 on July 03, 2019, 04:02:46 PM
horan said the provincials have to be kept and its unbalanced but thats they way it is he said

Thats there problem there insistence to to keep provincials linked to all ireland



i came up with another hypothetical idea today Open Draw all ireland knockout 32 - 34 teams if you count new york london and if kilkenny enter

Except the 4 provincial winners are seeded they cant meet untill semi Final that makes winning your province a slight advantage and still gives a bit more prestige to winning province

i still prefer the open draw no seeds knockout tho

As do I.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on July 03, 2019, 04:36:49 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 03, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
Giving weaker teams only one chance in the championship has been unsuccessfully tried before.

In 2007, Division 4 teams were eliminated from the championship if they lost in the provinces.

I recall that the Dublin v Offaly in that year's Leinster semi-final was one such match, where Offaly knew they would be out if they lost, and lose they did.

Nobody cared about the Tommy Cooper Cup that year, and nor did they care any other year.

The rule was scrapped after one year.

The Tommy Cooper Cup ended very quickly. Just like that!

Is that the door?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on July 03, 2019, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on July 03, 2019, 04:42:32 PM
If Leitrim hurlers played Kilkenny I dread to think what the score would be. Likewise any of the Christy Ring or Nicky Rackard teams.  The gap between the top tier and the others in hurling is vast. 

Derry (bottom tier in National League and 25th place) ran Tyrone (3rd Place in Division 1) to 6 points in the first round of the Championship. Down, 19th place in the National League ran Mayo (2nd and League Winners) to 4 points in the qualifiers.  Longford (21st) were less competitive v Tyrone (3rd) in the qualifiers, but the margin of victory for Tyrone was only four points. 

Roscommon finished in 25th place in the hurling league.  Can you imagine Roscommon (25th in the hurling league) holding Clare, Wexford or Tipp to four points, even if they did ease up in the last 10 minutes?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.
The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on July 03, 2019, 06:05:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.
The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on July 03, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 06:05:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.
The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.

21 different counties have won provincial titles since 1992. The Tommy Murphy Cup was rejected a decade ago. Time to move on.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on July 04, 2019, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: APM on July 03, 2019, 04:42:32 PM
If Leitrim hurlers played Kilkenny I dread to think what the score would be. Likewise any of the Christy Ring or Nicky Rackard teams.  The gap between the top tier and the others in hurling is vast. 

Derry (bottom tier in National League and 25th place) ran Tyrone (3rd Place in Division 1) to 6 points in the first round of the Championship. Down, 19th place in the National League ran Mayo (2nd and League Winners) to 4 points in the qualifiers.  Longford (21st) were less competitive v Tyrone (3rd) in the qualifiers, but the margin of victory for Tyrone was only four points. 

Roscommon finished in 25th place in the hurling league.  Can you imagine Roscommon (25th in the hurling league) holding Clare, Wexford or Tipp to four points, even if they did ease up in the last 10 minutes?

I get your point in terms of disparity but 4 points isn't a big deal in hurling whereas it takes an awful lot more to get 4 points in football. They are not the same thing between the two sports.

And I'm not going to mention lesser teams setting up ultra defensively to keep the margin down but ultimately the result is never in doubt.  It wouldn't matter if Roscommon hurlers lined all 14 outfield players inside their own half, teams like kilkenny would still cut through them like a knife through butter.

Hurling doesn't hid that disparity as well as football can but the disparity is still there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 10:28:13 AM
Rather than an out an out two tier system , I would be more in favour of a ' FA Cup' style championship draw where the teams in the lower divisions enter the competition earlier.

So we would have:
preliminary round

New York v team drawn from Div 4,
if you are drawn in preliminary round one year, you are not in the draw for it the following year  to try and make it fairer

Qualifier Round 1
Div 4 teams (pot 1)v Div 3 teams (pot 2)

Qualifier Round 2
Qualifier round 1 winners (pot 1)v Div 2 teams (pot 2)

Qualifier Round 3
Qualifier round 2 winners (pot 1) v Div 1 teams (pot 2)

Super 8s
2 groups of 4 teams ,just like we have now, but selected from an open draw of the 8 qualified teams.

I would play the provincial championships as a stand alone cup competition, not directly linked to the All Ireland series. Make them worth winning in their own right. Finals played as two 'super Sundays' before the AI series begins. Eg Live on TV Ulster final 2pm, Leinster final 4 pm, with the same for Munster & Connacht  the following Sunday

Scrap the preseason mckenna cups etc and start the league earlier
Ditch the league finals. If you finish top of your division you are 'Div league champions'  etc

What this set up would give us is:

A link between league performance and championship, making the league more competitive and meaningful.
A chance for every county to be involved in the latter stages of the championship, while still insuring the smaller counties get competitive games and a realistic chance to progress
More exposure for the lesser teams. (LIVE TV coverage of games from Q R1, QR2 etc)
A fairer way for teams to reach the later stages of the championship
A return to do or die, knock out football for the Ireland series and the potential for upsets and shocks.
Every county would be guaranteed:
7 national league games, at least 1 provincial championship game, at least 1 All Ireland series game.

The key is though, of that All Ireland series game, for every county, it is one they can realistically aspire to winning and aim for.
Progress in the national league would see you moving up the qualifier draw making it it easier to reach the later stages of the All Ireland series and
the Super 8 stage.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on July 04, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
blewuporstuffed's proposed system above is the best I have seen.
This would be an excellent solution.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2019, 10:50:14 AM
Quote from: priceyreilly on July 03, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 06:05:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: lenny on July 03, 2019, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: five points on July 03, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 03, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.
Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

For over one hundred years hurling teams like Donegal had nothing to play for. Now they've won Lory meagher and Nicky rackard trophys both in Croke Park. Without tiering they had nothing to play for. I've a friend who plays for them. There's nobody on here who could tell him that those competitions don't matter or are second rate. He trains hard and to him those medals are the same as a Liam McCarthy medal. There are lots of football teams for whom a better than average summer is getting 3 matches. Half the teams every year are out after 3 matches. There has to be a byway for teams to develop.
The league already provides the opportunity to improve against teams of similar standard.

We've had that for over a hundred years. There are quite a few teams out there who have never won anything in that time. The problem is they develop in the league but then get tanked in the championship because it's way above their level.

21 different counties have won provincial titles since 1992. The Tommy Murphy Cup was rejected a decade ago. Time to move on.
Attendances are the GAA's key metric and they have been falling for several years.
It doesn't matter than the TM cup was rejected. That was then. This is now
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 04, 2019, 11:02:24 AM
I like parts of blewuporstuffed's proposal but I think relegating the provincials to a stand alone competition isn't a runner. Teams want to win their provincial championship because it's worth winning. If it's not linked to the All-Ireland series then the stronger teams won't care about it and so the smaller teams winning it becomes less significant.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 04, 2019, 11:02:24 AM
I like parts of blewuporstuffed's proposal but I think relegating the provincials to a stand alone competition isn't a runner. Teams want to win their provincial championship because it's worth winning. If it's not linked to the All-Ireland series then the stronger teams won't care about it and so the smaller teams winning it becomes less significant.
I know that is going to be the big stumbling block for a lot of people, but i really think if we want meaningful reform of the championship structure we have no choice.
It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.
The provincials have lost a  we e bit of their appeal for the bigger counties as it is anyway.
It certainly may not sit well with the traditionalists, but I think its a better overall solution than a tiered championship or the current format
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 04, 2019, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.


It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:56:21 AM
Quote from: five points on July 04, 2019, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.


It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.
Thats a completely different thing though.
What i mean is, how easy the route is for cork/kerry to reach the super 8s as opposed to say an ulster county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on July 04, 2019, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:56:21 AM
Quote from: five points on July 04, 2019, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
It shouldn't be easier for one county to reach the super 8s than another just because of what part of the country you are in.


It will always be easier for some on the basis that they are bigger and more populous than other counties.
Thats a completely different thing though.
What i mean is, how easy the route is for cork/kerry to reach the super 8s as opposed to say an ulster county.

The same as for Waterford Clare or Tipp I would say.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: square_ball on July 04, 2019, 12:39:57 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on July 04, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
blewuporstuffed's proposed system above is the best I have seen.
This would be an excellent solution.

Yip we have a winner here. Out of all proposals this is the best one I've seen yet.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on July 04, 2019, 12:43:42 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 04, 2019, 11:56:21 AM

Thats a completely different thing though.
What i mean is, how easy the route is for cork/kerry to reach the super 8s as opposed to say an ulster county.

It's not completely different. It's impossible to eliminate every unfairness.

Personally, I'd far prefer to see my own county win a provincial title than reach the not-so-super 8s.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 04, 2019, 12:59:21 PM
Blowup's scenario is just a tweak of the present knock out do or die qualifiers whose first 2 rounds are mainly populated by D3 and 4 teams.
Making the League more important than the Provincials is daft unless you move the League to the Summer.
Anyway the GAA has the 2 proposals emanating from last weekend's CC meeting on its table so we'll see how that works out.
Meanwhile we folks on discussion forums can put forward our ideas on Championship reforms and good luck to us.
Like the TV programme "we asked 100 people..." we'd get maybe 90 different proposals.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on July 05, 2019, 12:43:14 AM
A speech from Lord Hor Hor

GAA calling, GAA calling.

Weak counties - Achtung! Surrender!

The Leader hereby decrees that the Irish People, the people of the GAA and the people of our associated official broadcast partners and corporate sponsors, demand a final solution to the question of the sick, the infirm and the cripple counties.

The Leader decrees that from 2020 on, the sick counties will be concentrated in a new, vibrant second tier All-Ireland football losers competition, called the Vibrant Losers' Cup, to be played in a blitz, the final of which will take place in Roscrea at 10 am on the first Saturday in August, thereby ensuring huge media attention, as promised. The winners will carry a gold star on their jerseys for the following year.

The strong are tired of propping up the weak. The masters of the race for Sam must and will have lebensraum. The All-Ireland championship must be kept pure and free of the polluting influence of the no hopers.

No longer will Dublin travel to Leitrim, no longer will Tyrone travel to Longford, no longer will Mayo tavel to Longford, no longer will Kerry travel to, eh, Longford, it's always f**king Longford, isn't it.

Gaelic football is a survival of the fittest. The strong must devour the weak. Know your place, piccaninnies.

At a Special Sitting (SS) in October, all opposition will be swept aside and a glorious new competition which will last for a thousand years will come into being.

In co-ordination with Head of Propaganda Josef Brolly, we will sweep aside all opposition to the Vibrant Cup. The weak and the sick will be given Das Boot.

Our head of propaganda has called for a socialist GAA. This is what we will give people, a glorious, national, socialist GAA.

There is nobody who will stand in the way of the glorious future.

No appeal from any sick county that they will be destroyed forever will be heard. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

To those weak, sick counties who defy the will of the people and our associated official broadcast partners and corporate sponsors for this glorious future, I have three words to say to them - Arbeit Macht Frei.

Heil Hor Hor!

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2019, 10:26:12 PM
Should Mayo and Cork be in tier 2? Given our terrible performance and Cork's 13 point defeat. Sure that's why the second tier is about. Avoiding tankings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on July 15, 2019, 10:46:11 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2019, 10:26:12 PM
Should Mayo and Cork be in tier 2? Given our terrible performance and Cork's 13 point defeat. Sure that's why the second tier is about. Avoiding tankings.

Quite a few disingenuous idiots on here.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on July 16, 2019, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2019, 10:26:12 PM
Should Mayo and Cork be in tier 2? Given our terrible performance and Cork's 13 point defeat. Sure that's why the second tier is about. Avoiding tankings.
Yeah sure lets just have Dublin as tier one playing themselves then everyone else can be tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 16, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
Just to make Benny's and Hardstations day ;D

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-ignore-gpas-appeal-to-defer-vote-on-second-tier-38501081.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 16, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
Just to make Benny's and Hardstations day ;D

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-ignore-gpas-appeal-to-defer-vote-on-second-tier-38501081.html

No surprise there. I always knew the GAA fascists would make it happen.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on September 16, 2019, 01:25:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 16, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
Just to make Benny's and Hardstations day ;D

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-ignore-gpas-appeal-to-defer-vote-on-second-tier-38501081.html

No surprise there. I always knew the GAA fascists would make it happen.

Jesus, there should nearly be three tiers, never mind two.
Dublin V Wicklow, Dublin V Carlow, Kerry V Waterford.
No disrespect to any of the lesser counties, but sweet jesus, how can you continue to motivate a young fella to burst his balls for three or four months and then to experience the annual hammering.

btw, the GAA hierarchy are also stupid if they think that this alone will resolve the bigger issue.
Give counties in DIV 3 and 4 (multiple ) extra coaches and funding, otherwise the second tier will eventually die off.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: An Watcher on September 16, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
Two tiers, one for the dubs and one for the rest. Dubs can play among themselves or split themselves up!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on September 16, 2019, 05:08:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

To be more competitive against the top teams the next time they play them has to be a motivation and to not allow themselves fall back to the level they were at.  Cavan,Roscommon,Kildare who all had their spells in Div 3 and Galway who was a middle of the road Div 2 team getting knocked out of Connacht by Sligo and the All Ireland series by Antrim. And yes i agree tanking will always happen regardless of the format or tiers you have just look at hurling this summer to see that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 16, 2019, 05:31:47 PM
Proposed Football Rule changes for the Special Congress -
Kick outs from 20m line
Mark for catching a ball kicked from outside 45 which travel 20m or more
10 minute sin bin for black cards.

Tweaks to "Super 8"s but will have to go to full Congress it seems.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on September 17, 2019, 11:02:42 PM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)
Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

Both correct.

If the idea is to go down this tiered route, then it needs to be done properly with three tiers. Counties around 9-16 will remain no hopers in the top tier. And counties down at 25-32/33 will remain uncompetitive in the second tier.

Two tiers is half an idea, just like most out of Croke Park.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on September 17, 2019, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on September 17, 2019, 11:02:42 PM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)
Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

Both correct.

If the idea is to go down this tiered route, then it needs to be done properly with three tiers. Counties around 9-16 will remain no hopers in the top tier. And counties down at 25-32/33 will remain uncompetitive in the second tier.

Two tiers is half an idea, just like most out of Croke Park.

If it was to be done properly the NFL would be made more important as that is our tiered competition already in place.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on September 17, 2019, 11:16:22 PM
The Ladies version of tiered this year!

Senior Championship


Cork      
Armagh   
Cavan   
Dublin   
Waterford   
Monaghan   
Galway   
Kerry   
Westmeath
Mayo      
Tyrone   
Donegal   


Intermediate championship


Sligo   3   
Kildare   
Down   
Limerick   
Tipperary   
Meath   
Wicklow   
Longford   
Wexford   
Clare   2   
Laois   2   
Roscommon   
Offaly   
Leitrim   


Junior Championship


Louth   
London   
Carlow
Fermanagh   
Antrim   
Derry   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on September 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)

Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

What it there to motivate them now? We have 1 tier and tankings occur regularly even in the so caller Super 8's.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on September 18, 2019, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)

Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

What it there to motivate them now? We have 1 tier and tankings occur regularly even in the so caller Super 8's.

Think about this,
every county will still have at least one chance to win an all-ireland final (at the highest level).

Every county will still have a chance to win a provisional championship

The only difference is instead of being knocked out in one (or maybe two) rounds of the qualifiers the weaker counties now have a realistic shot at winning an All Ireland (tier 2).

It makes sense to me, as I've said before however I think the winners should be allowed back into the tier 1 competition but that might not be possible due to scheduling issues. 

Looking at the poll results it seems the majority are in favour of the proposal.  Change comes slow in the GAA but give Horan credit, he sees the big picture.



I think this is a good proposal, it's gives team more realistic chance of silverware
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on September 18, 2019, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 18, 2019, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)

Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

What it there to motivate them now? We have 1 tier and tankings occur regularly even in the so caller Super 8's.

Think about this,
every county will still have at least one chance to win an all-ireland final (at the highest level).

Every county will still have a chance to win a provisional championship

The only difference is instead of being knocked out in one (or maybe two) rounds of the qualifiers the weaker counties now have a realistic shot at winning an All Ireland (tier 2).

It makes sense to me, as I've said before however I think the winners should be allowed back into the tier 1 competition but that might not be possible due to scheduling issues. 

Looking at the poll results it seems the majority are in favour of the proposal.  Change comes slow in the GAA but give Horan credit, he sees the big picture.

I think this is a good proposal, it's gives team more realistic chance of silverware

Reluctant to comment on this as I think it should be the players and fans of the Div 3 and 4 teams who decide. But there was a guy on OTB (didn't catch who it was) and he completely slammed it and pretty much railroaded Emlyn Mulligan into agreeing with him.

His main problem was the provincial backdoor. It's much harder for Derry to make the provincial final than Sligo. But, so what, that's luck of the draw, you could end up with 4 worst teams in Ulster in the same half. Sligo could have to beat Galway and Mayo to get to a final, or they could have to beat London and Leitrim. It's a very minor point to argue about. If a team is that determined that they should be in Tier 1, then all they have to do is get promoted to the Second Division of the league.

I'm not sure I agree with the provincial final backdoor, I'd leave it to winners only. But a team that wins Tier 2 should definitely be automatically into Tier 1 the following year, as if they were a Div 1/2 team. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on September 18, 2019, 02:33:33 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 18, 2019, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)

Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

What it there to motivate them now? We have 1 tier and tankings occur regularly even in the so caller Super 8's.

Think about this,
every county will still have at least one chance to win an all-ireland final (at the highest level).

Every county will still have a chance to win a provisional championship

The only difference is instead of being knocked out in one (or maybe two) rounds of the qualifiers the weaker counties now have a realistic shot at winning an All Ireland (tier 2).

It makes sense to me, as I've said before however I think the winners should be allowed back into the tier 1 competition but that might not be possible due to scheduling issues. 

Looking at the poll results it seems the majority are in favour of the proposal.  Change comes slow in the GAA but give Horan credit, he sees the big picture.



I think this is a good proposal, it's gives team more realistic chance of silverware

You realize that the GAA president is a figurehead 3 year position? In Horan's case he's been a great mouthpiece for a second tier which those in HQ with power have been pushing hard to get in place as soon as possible and regardless what the players and managers of the "lesser" teams think.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 18, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
Haven't heard or seen many objections from the "lesser teams" managers or players.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on September 18, 2019, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: Taylor on September 16, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
If there is two tiers what is to motivate the lesser counties in the top tier?

Take Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly Donegal out of it and the Dubs will hockey every other team by double figures who are also in the top tier (they will beat those 4 mentioned teams by 5-9 points usually on any given day)

Quote from: BennyCake on September 16, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
Kildare, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway etc are around 7th-10th ranked last few years. Each have been stuffed by Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc last few years.

Whats to motivate those players to participate in the HIGHEST tier? Never mind the lower tiers. The tankings will still take place in Tier 1.

What it there to motivate them now? We have 1 tier and tankings occur regularly even in the so caller Super 8's.

Yes, but all along it's been little Leitrim, Waterford, Antrim etc getting stuffed, and we need a tiered system because they clearly can't compete with the big boys.

Brolly sat on TSG earlier in the championship and moaned about Div 4 Antrim getting stuffed by Div 1 Tyrone, and that they should be in a B championship because they can't compete. Yet a week or two before, Div 4 Derry pushed Div 1 Tyrone all the way in their clash, but he never mentioned that.

The bottom tier teams will never make anything from being there, because HQ won't be funding them. They'll just tell us, ah sure that's just where they are, that's their level, they need to get off their arses and sort it out. Eventually tier 2 will drift off into oblivion, never to be seen again. But they don't bring in huge revenue to the GAA anyway, so they don't care. They already have their tier 1/Super 8/ Champions League groups cash cows.

Tier 1 will consist of the massive-funded Dublin, and 4/5 on a similar level that won't be catching the Dubs. The other 10 counties below the top 6 will be treated the same as the tier 2 teams - ie. get up off your arses and sort it out. They'll get no funding either.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on September 18, 2019, 04:03:10 PM
A second tier won't address the ongoing crisis in GF which is the Dublin situation.

The GAA probably needs a citizens Assembly , similar to what they had for the abortion referendum 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on September 30, 2019, 01:04:16 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0929/1078982-gpa-gpa-inferior-tier-2-format-being-rushed-through/

Interesting read, looks like this is definitely going to happen next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 30, 2019, 01:35:35 PM
Would have made sense to hold on till the Review group reported.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on September 30, 2019, 02:25:36 PM
Rushing any new format in is a wrong way to do things. Always interesting to hear the views from players that may end up playing in the 2nd tier.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/gaelic-football/gaelic-football-news/tier-two-proposal-special-report-20317254
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 05, 2019, 10:53:31 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1004/1081156-tier-2-proposal-a-case-of-much-done-more-to-do/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 05, 2019, 12:04:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 30, 2019, 01:35:35 PM
Would have made sense to hold on till the Review group reported.
That's the problem. What happens if the Review comes up with something different?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thejuice on October 05, 2019, 12:25:01 PM
Yeah. I don't see how this helps move things towards a more open and competitive championship to be honest. Surely 2 tiers should be seen as a temporary situation till we can get teams a more equal footing. But I'm not sure it helps in achieving that goal.

I think the GAA should have always be trying to level the playing field as much as possible by making sure counties like Leitrim aren't stuck for resources that the top teams have. Invest more in the lower ranked counties than the top. You can't solve population differences but there are disparities that can be. Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and a few others don't need as much help from headquarters as others do. The NFL have their heads screwed on in this regard in terms of giving the lowest team a leg up in the draft. Obviously they can't help a team if they're coached and owned by fools.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on October 05, 2019, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: thejuice on October 05, 2019, 12:25:01 PM
Yeah. I don't see how this helps move things towards a more open and competitive championship to be honest. Surely 2 tiers should be seen as a temporary situation till we can get teams a more equal footing. But I'm not sure it helps in achieving that goal.

I think the GAA should have always be trying to level the playing field as much as possible by making sure counties like Leitrim aren't stuck for resources that the top teams have. Invest more in the lower ranked counties than the top. You can't solve population differences but there are disparities that can be. Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and a few others don't need as much help from headquarters as others do. The NFL have their heads screwed on in this regard in terms of giving the lowest team a leg up in the draft. Obviously they can't help a team if they're coached and owned by fools.

You're never going to ge all teams on an equal footing. Even the NFL which strives for fairness has good and bad teams every year.

The likes of Leitrim,Louth and Carlow will never be able to match counties like Dublin and Kerry no matter how much money you throw at them. The obvious solution to me is to introduce a competition that these teams have a realistic chance to win every tear
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 05, 2019, 04:35:29 PM
Louth has around the same population as Kerry.
If only their Co Board could persuade Croke Park that the "GAA needs a strong Louth" ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 05, 2019, 07:18:11 PM
Quote from: thejuice on October 05, 2019, 12:25:01 PM
Yeah. I don't see how this helps move things towards a more open and competitive championship to be honest. Surely 2 tiers should be seen as a temporary situation till we can get teams a more equal footing. But I'm not sure it helps in achieving that goal.

I think the GAA should have always be trying to level the playing field as much as possible by making sure counties like Leitrim aren't stuck for resources that the top teams have. Invest more in the lower ranked counties than the top. You can't solve population differences but there are disparities that can be. Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and a few others don't need as much help from headquarters as others do. The NFL have their heads screwed on in this regard in terms of giving the lowest team a leg up in the draft. Obviously they can't help a team if they're coached and owned by fools.

NFL without a doubt the best format the GAA have and their tiered system already in place.

Division two will be the most competitive of the four groups next year. You'll have the 4 or 5 pushing for promotion and the rest fighting for their life's to avoid that Tommy Murphy Cup mark 2 competition in the summer.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: TheGreatest on October 07, 2019, 08:26:26 AM
3 ties , junior, inter and Senior.

There will still be complaints of hidings when its two tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 03:25:35 PM
2nd tier confirmed for 2020 and to be decided on where teams finishes in the NFL this spring (Cork will be happy with that)

2nd tier was scrapped 11 years ago so basically those at the top have gone backwards as they tweak the Gaa championship once more.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 03:39:14 PM
Complete joke shop
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

All Ireland isn't all about who wins its and as it stands its Dublin's to lose for the foreseeable future. 

That's a big if by the way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on October 19, 2019, 04:25:16 PM
Makes Division 2 of the league fair interesting next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

It won't be, and it won't be.

This is just HQ sweeping the unfair funding issue under the carpet.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 04:28:39 PM
Won't someone please  think of Hardstation and Bennycake :-\
A fairly decisive vote alright.
Ros better make sure we don't get relegated!!
The proposed football rules all passed too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 05:10:20 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on October 19, 2019, 04:25:16 PM
Makes Division 2 of the league fair interesting next year.

Very interesting and competitive. Will be a big battle between Down, Cork, Tipperary and Down to get out of division 3.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 05:28:27 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2019, 04:40:58 PM
The inter-county game is officially finished for a number of counties now, Antrim included.
Better concentrating on club football.
Antrim who were batin all round them the last 20 years.... ...?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 05:35:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

It won't be, and it won't be.

This is just HQ sweeping the unfair funding issue under the carpet.

Couldn't agree more .
He won't market this .
GAA president John Horan reveals a text message from RTE's Declan McBennett that he is confident the second tier championship )business end) will be covered.
That's what he told Congress today.
He has a text.
No coverage plans.
A text to cover semi finals and finals.
No other rounds

Anyone who think the Gaa will market this need their heads looked at
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: marty34 on October 19, 2019, 05:41:12 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

I agree.  If club football has 3 tiers - Senior, Junior and Intermediate, then county football should have 2 at least.  No county in Ireland has 1 championship where all club teams play in the same championship.

The GAA is totally different in that the league is a secondary competition whereas in other sports, the league winners are the best and most consistent team.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 06:15:58 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 05:35:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

It won't be, and it won't be.

This is just HQ sweeping the unfair funding issue under the carpet.

Couldn't agree more .
He won't market this .
GAA president John Horan reveals a text message from RTE's Declan McBennett that he is confident the second tier championship )business end) will be covered.
That's what he told Congress today.
He has a text.
No coverage plans.
A text to cover semi finals and finals.
No other rounds

Anyone who think the Gaa will market this need their heads looked at

This tier 2 will get about as much coverage as the Meagher and Rackard cups get in hurling, ie. a 60 second highlights package on TSG.

It's funny though, because with the gaa and provincial councils wanting to keep the provincial championships, this format will actually finish them off. No big deal you may say, with Ulster and maybe Connacht seen as competitive. Donegal v Tyrone preliminary round, 4 games to win Ulster, and into QFs. Lose, play 2 qualifiers and into QFs. It's a no brainier. Why would they bother busting their nuts winning Ulster?

The tiered championships in hurling finished off the Ulster hurling championship. Yes it wasn't the standard of Munster or Leinster, but it was still entertaining, competitive with decent crowds.now watch the football championship go tits up too
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: under the bar on October 19, 2019, 06:37:48 PM
So Armagh and Down, perennial div 3 fodder that they are, will be contesting the Mickey mouse cup from 2020? LMAO!  ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 19, 2019, 06:49:45 PM
I'm awful confused. Can someone tell me what the perceived merits of this are? To save time, the one I've heard is to give teams a chance to enter a competition they can win. I'd say that doesn't realistically apply to about half the teams entering so let's forget that one.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 06:56:05 PM
Half have a chance so?
In Tier 1 only 1 eighth or 1 sixteenth have a chance :-\
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 19, 2019, 06:58:44 PM
Not shocked to see it voted in as 90% of the commentary and promotion in the lead up was about the "need" for 2nd tier championship to return.

It's one of those 3 year trial periods i see. Will be interesting to see what shape the lesser counties will be in after it. Educated guess would say no better than currently if not falling further behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 19, 2019, 06:58:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 06:56:05 PM
Half have a chance so?
In Tier 1 only 1 eighth or 1 sixteenth have a chance :-\
In Tier one virtually no chance, in this set up very little chance.

Anything at all at all else?

Also have we any idea how both championships would work if one or more teams end up in the big boys' competition?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

All Ireland isn't all about who wins its and as it stands its Dublin's to lose for the foreseeable future. 

That's a big if by the way.

So what do you suggest. Keep them all in the All Ireland series with the aim of a Carlow or a Waterford getting to the Super 8s.? The weaker Counties are still playing in the Provincials..

They need sonething to play for. The weaker County managers all say they they enjoy playing in the League as they are playing teams at their level, who they can realistically beat
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

All Ireland isn't all about who wins its and as it stands its Dublin's to lose for the foreseeable future. 

That's a big if by the way.

So what do you suggest. Keep them all in the All Ireland series with the aim of a Carlow or a Waterford getting to the Super 8s.? The weaker Counties are still playing in the Provincials..

They need sonething to play for. The weaker County managers all say they they enjoy playing in the League as they are playing teams at their level, who they can realistically beat
Make the four leagues more important. By accident division two will be made more important next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 19, 2019, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 19, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 19, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
What's the joke? . Persist with a All Ireland that many teams have no chance of winning? They have 5 tiers in Hurling..

If the second tier is marketed well and has TV Coverage it could be a success. The winner qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year.

All Ireland isn't all about who wins its and as it stands its Dublin's to lose for the foreseeable future. 

That's a big if by the way.

So what do you suggest. Keep them all in the All Ireland series with the aim of a Carlow or a Waterford getting to the Super 8s.? The weaker Counties are still playing in the Provincials..

They need sonething to play for. The weaker County managers all say they they enjoy playing in the League as they are playing teams at their level, who they can realistically beat

Put a summer league in place for the lower 12 or 16...gives a chance to see the smaller, lighter, skilled players on hard ground who would have trouble showing in the heavier conditions and poor weather.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 19, 2019, 07:52:45 PM
"What would you suggest" has nothing to do with what's been done, but for a start they could've waited for the fixtures review committee to finish their work. They could have listened to what the players from the lower divisions were saying through the GPA. The only relevant question at this stage is why they were in such a rush?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 19, 2019, 08:10:00 PM
Quote from: under the bar on October 19, 2019, 06:37:48 PM
So Armagh and Down, perennial div 3 fodder that they are, will be contesting the Mickey mouse cup from 2020? LMAO!  ;D

McKenna cup winners should get an automatic invite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 19, 2019, 09:06:26 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?
Good question and there are many more besides. 

Has it been thought through?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on October 19, 2019, 09:35:09 PM
All the people crying over the  possible coverage given to 2nd tier counties under the new proposal are living in a different world to everyone else.

Under the current plan the likes of Carlow, Louth, Wicklow etc get f**k all coverage and yet these counties are crying about it. If these county boards  genuinely cared about players for their team they might do something. 

Another reason why Irish football is f**ked when you have thw current board and Conway in charge
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on October 19, 2019, 10:34:17 PM
Unfortunately this is another example of the creeping elitism in the GAA.
They're now bubbling the high profile, high earning teams to the top and filtering out the less desirable ones.

It also shows that GAA democracy is top down instead of bottom up.
John Horan decided this was to be his defining legacy and set about using all the tools at his disposal to ram it through.

For the elite counties there's a plenty of "I'm alright Jack" at play in how they voted.
We're happy for the dregs to bugger off someplace else, but we don't want to play in a 2nd tier ourselves.
Look at how Cork and Tipperary shored up their position when it looked like they were slated to operate in tier 2.
If it's such a great place for counties to develop and win a national trophy, they shouldn't have minded.
It's reminds of that Onion satirical survey which said that 98% of commuters favoured public transport for others.

There may be other teams who fall through the trapdoor in future who will change their tune on the merits of a tiered championship.
John Horan himself wants to add an extra team to the Leinster hurling championship now that Leix may possibly nudge Dublin into the Joe McDonagh Cup.
And we laughed at John Delaney wanting a 33rd team in the world cup.

As usual there was plenty of woolly promises to sweeten the deal. Promises about coverage and promotion which might be well intentioned but are unlikely to amount to anything.
Remember when people wanted Croke Park opened, all the fluffy talk about soccer and rugby matches being preceded by GAA demos to woo the masses. How the new Lansdowne Road would be open for GAA quarter finals.
People use all sorts of fudges to push something over the line.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on October 19, 2019, 11:10:41 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on October 19, 2019, 10:34:17 PM
Unfortunately this is another example of the creeping elitism in the GAA.
They're now bubbling the high profile, high earning teams to the top and filtering out the less desirable ones.

It also shows that GAA democracy is top down instead of bottom up.
John Horan decided this was to be his defining legacy and set about using all the tools at his disposal to ram it through.

For the elite counties there's a plenty of "I'm alright Jack" at play in how they voted.
We're happy for the dregs to bugger off someplace else, but we don't want to play in a 2nd tier ourselves.
Look at how Cork and Tipperary shored up their position when it looked like they were slated to operate in tier 2.
If it's such a great place for counties to develop and win a national trophy, they shouldn't have minded.
It's reminds of that Onion satirical survey which said that 98% of commuters favoured public transport for others.

There may be other teams who fall through the trapdoor in future who will change their tune on the merits of a tiered championship.
John Horan himself wants to add an extra team to the Leinster hurling championship now that Leix may possibly nudge Dublin into the Joe McDonagh Cup.
And we laughed at John Delaney wanting a 33rd team in the world cup.

As usual there was plenty of woolly promises to sweeten the deal. Promises about coverage and promotion which might be well intentioned but are unlikely to amount to anything.
Remember when people wanted Croke Park opened, all the fluffy talk about soccer and rugby matches being preceded by GAA demos to woo the masses. How the new Lansdowne Road would be open for GAA quarter finals.
People use all sorts of fudges to push something over the line.

Excellent post!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: under the bar on October 19, 2019, 11:18:50 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 19, 2019, 08:10:00 PM
Quote from: under the bar on October 19, 2019, 06:37:48 PM
So Armagh and Down, perennial div 3 fodder that they are, will be contesting the Mickey mouse cup from 2020? LMAO!  ;D

McKenna cup winners should get an automatic invite.

That's Armagh fcuked twice then.  They couldn't win a game of snap!... ;D ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 11:21:01 PM
I don't trust Congress. Transparency is needed. CPA wanted it and they were right to want it.

The GAA are fast becoming the Tory party.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 11:37:14 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM

Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ? YES.
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ? YES.
As far as I'm aware there will be a Prelim Round if needed weekend * 23 June.
Round 1 weekend * 30 June
Round 2 weekend* 7 July.

*Can't be bothered to check exact dates
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 11:44:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2019, 11:21:01 PM
I don't trust Congress.

How are things in the Purity Cave? :P
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on October 20, 2019, 06:08:32 AM
One of the arguments against tiering is that it takes away the dreams of weaker D3 and D4 counties .
Funding Dublin takes away the dreams of the stronger counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on October 20, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
So more than likely we will have Tyrone/Donegal will a minimum 4 week break between when they are out out of the Ulster championship and play there first round qualifier game.

It's farcical that this has been allowed to be pushed through.
There is absolutely no detail in it.
I am assuming from what's been outlined that is possible for a Div 3/ Div 4 team to win this competition and then win it again the next year ( assuming they have not be promoted to division 2 and get knocked out before their provincial final).
At least with the hurling structure( Joe McDonagh winners) they are given the chance to compete in the all Ireland hurling championship in the same season.

Thee is no detail in this proposal.  Nothing at all.
Just dump the division 3 and 4 teams from the senior championship and let them play among themselves.
There are no incentives to win this competition.  What has been talked about is All Stars, Tv coverage and semi finals and finals before the all Ireland semi finals and finals. 
Again no detail has been given but sure John Horan got a text from RTÉ.
Imagine if the main competition was changed like this.
It shows exactly what direction the Gaa is heading in.
We are losing what was great about our organisation in a rush to create marquee games at the end of the summer.  Nothing is being done to develop these weaker footballing counties.
The minute your tier teams off you are increasing the gap between the halves and the have nots.
The league was tiered and it has helped the stronger and better organised counties

Just look at what has happened Offaly and Antrim in the hurling? Show me all the new teams that have suddenly appeared in hurling at the top table since they tiered it ?
Yes teams now win competitions but they end up getting relegated the next year from the competition above. How is that helping developing hurling ?

It's just typical Gaa.  No though. No plan. More greed.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2019, 11:30:21 AM
Quote from: FermGael on October 20, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
So more than likely we will have Tyrone/Donegal will a minimum 4 week break between when they are out out of the Ulster championship and play there first round qualifier game.

It's farcical that this has been allowed to be pushed through.
There is absolutely no detail in it.
I am assuming from what's been outlined that is possible for a Div 3/ Div 4 team to win this competition and then win it again the next year ( assuming they have not be promoted to division 2 and get knocked out before their provincial final).
At least with the hurling structure( Joe McDonagh winners) they are given the chance to compete in the all Ireland hurling championship in the same season.

Thee is no detail in this proposal.  Nothing at all.
Just dump the division 3 and 4 teams from the senior championship and let them play among themselves.
There are no incentives to win this competition.  What has been talked about is All Stars, Tv coverage and semi finals and finals before the all Ireland semi finals and finals. 
Again no detail has been given but sure John Horan got a text from RTÉ.
Imagine if the main competition was changed like this.
It shows exactly what direction the Gaa is heading in.
We are losing what was great about our organisation in a rush to create marquee games at the end of the summer.  Nothing is being done to develop these weaker footballing counties.
The minute your tier teams off you are increasing the gap between the halves and the have nots.
The league was tiered and it has helped the stronger and better organised counties

Just look at what has happened Offaly and Antrim in the hurling? Show me all the new teams that have suddenly appeared in hurling at the top table since they tiered it ?
Yes teams now win competitions but they end up getting relegated the next year from the competition above. How is that helping developing hurling ?

It's just typical Gaa.  No though. No plan. More greed.

100% agree with everything you have said here FermGael. I do wonder what the end-game is in all of this?

"Get yer houses in order" will be the line taken, but you can only do so much when Dublin are swatting away everyone. And please, don't mention the 1 point wins in the finals against Mayo. Mayo are gone you could say, Kerry may win one or two, but we won't ever see Dublin going through 16 years of pain again.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 20, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Empty stadiums would send a clear message but that us never going happen. Folk will continue to fill the pockets of the GAA so in their mind it will be deemed a triumph.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 12:09:44 PM
There'll be no handy Qualifier games next year!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 01:53:16 PM
Such as.....?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 20, 2019, 02:36:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 19, 2019, 11:37:14 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM

Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ? YES.
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ? YES.
As far as I'm aware there will be a Prelim Round if needed weekend * 23 June.
Round 1 weekend * 30 June
Round 2 weekend* 7 July.

*Can't be bothered to check exact dates
I see it mentions byes if there are less than 16 teams. So if there's 15 teams there's a bye but if there's 14 there's two byes?

Also, when the Super 8s were introduced the championship was condensed with the view of facilitating club games for those teams knocked out. Now, as Ferm Gael, has pointed out, either Monaghan or Cavan will be sitting around as they used to do before the Super 8s.

Talk about making it up as you go along.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 20, 2019, 02:54:13 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 20, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Empty stadiums would send a clear message but that us never going happen. Folk will continue to fill the pockets of the GAA so in their mind it will be deemed a triumph.

Fans will flock to the big games no matter how many there are. Even if people boycotted Tier 2 games, the big games will balance the books anyway, so the GAA don't give a shit. And, nobody would notice a boycott because Tier 2 will get feck all coverage anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 05:49:01 PM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/john-horan-enthusiastic-about-new-football-championship-format/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 20, 2019, 08:23:06 PM
Tommy Murphy mark 2

Instead of tackling the blindingly obvious need to change the approach to coaching funding and structures in many weaker counties they've basically decided to turf them out into the championship wilderness
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: didlyi on October 20, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
According to the poll at the top of the page a majority here wanted a second tier. I haven't seen one positive post since it was announced. Theres no pleasing some people
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
The Gaaboarders are a strange crew ;D
Then again those in favour have no need to comment as their option won.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 20, 2019, 09:10:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
The Gaaboarders are a strange crew ;D
Then again those in favour have no need to comment as their option won.
It was a very broad question and I don't think anyone would've envisaged what we got.

But "there's no pleasing some people" is a grand sweeping statement.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2019, 09:18:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
The Gaaboarders are a strange crew ;D
Then again those in favour have no need to comment as their option won.

Are you you one of those that doesn't think their "opinions" wasn't influenced and rushed/pressured?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 20, 2019, 09:08:51 PM
Hasn't stopped you.
Never said I was in favour of this proposal.
Hope you're getting counselling  ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: didlyi on October 20, 2019, 09:38:31 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 20, 2019, 09:10:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
The Gaaboarders are a strange crew ;D
Then again those in favour have no need to comment as their option won.
It was a very broad question and I don't think anyone would've envisaged what we got.

But "there's no pleasing some people" is a grand sweeping statement.

Sounds like a brexiteers response to brexit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Solo_run on October 20, 2019, 09:56:33 PM
Are the tiers going to be based on the league finals of that year?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2019, 09:30:37 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 20, 2019, 09:08:51 PM
Hasn't stopped you.
Never said I was in favour of this proposal.
Hope you're getting counselling  ;D

Are you in favour of it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Tyrdub on October 21, 2019, 08:56:38 AM
Quote from: FermGael on October 20, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
So more than likely we will have Tyrone/Donegal will a minimum 4 week break between when they are out out of the Ulster championship and play there first round qualifier game.

It's farcical that this has been allowed to be pushed through.
There is absolutely no detail in it.
I am assuming from what's been outlined that is possible for a Div 3/ Div 4 team to win this competition and then win it again the next year ( assuming they have not be promoted to division 2 and get knocked out before their provincial final).
At least with the hurling structure( Joe McDonagh winners) they are given the chance to compete in the all Ireland hurling championship in the same season.

Thee is no detail in this proposal.  Nothing at all.
Just dump the division 3 and 4 teams from the senior championship and let them play among themselves.
There are no incentives to win this competition.  What has been talked about is All Stars, Tv coverage and semi finals and finals before the all Ireland semi finals and finals. 
Again no detail has been given but sure John Horan got a text from RTÉ.
Imagine if the main competition was changed like this.
It shows exactly what direction the Gaa is heading in.
We are losing what was great about our organisation in a rush to create marquee games at the end of the summer.  Nothing is being done to develop these weaker footballing counties.
The minute your tier teams off you are increasing the gap between the halves and the have nots.
The league was tiered and it has helped the stronger and better organised counties

Just look at what has happened Offaly and Antrim in the hurling? Show me all the new teams that have suddenly appeared in hurling at the top table since they tiered it ?
Yes teams now win competitions but they end up getting relegated the next year from the competition above. How is that helping developing hurling ?

It's just typical Gaa.  No though. No plan. More greed.

+1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)

I am happy it was voted in, however i would of went to 3 tiers, Senior, Inter and Junior, like we have in every single county in the country, however too many would complain and play the victim.

Its still not clear to me in some aspects.

Are the supers 8s gone and back to straight knockout QFs in tier 1?
All div 3 and 4 teams get qualifier chance if they lose their provincial final, if they lose their first qualifier do they go into the Tier 2?
Does Tier 2 competition only start when all provincial finals are finished? E.G long wait for first round losers
Will New York play tier 2, will they travel?






Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 12:35:03 PM
It's I WOULD HAVE GONE  >:( >:(
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 21, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)

I am happy it was voted in, however i would of went to 3 tiers, Senior, Inter and Junior, like we have in every single county in the country, however too many would complain and play the victim.

Its still not clear to me in some aspects.

Are the supers 8s gone and back to straight knockout QFs in tier 1?
All div 3 and 4 teams get qualifier chance if they lose their provincial final, if they lose their first qualifier do they go into the Tier 2?
Does Tier 2 competition only start when all provincial finals are finished? E.G long wait for first round losers
Will New York play tier 2, will they travel?
The three dates are listed on the left so yes the so-called "Super 8's" are still there, as you'd expect given that's the only level that Croke Park give a shit about any more.

A terrible decision and it'll not improve the fortunes of those of us who are in the wilderness. But as long as certain people can keep themselves in favour in HQ that's what really matters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?
2 ways out of " the wilderness" - get up to Div  2 or reach a Connacht Final.
Surely both should be Sligo's aim and capability??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 21, 2019, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 21, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)

I am happy it was voted in, however i would of went to 3 tiers, Senior, Inter and Junior, like we have in every single county in the country, however too many would complain and play the victim.

Its still not clear to me in some aspects.

Are the supers 8s gone and back to straight knockout QFs in tier 1?
All div 3 and 4 teams get qualifier chance if they lose their provincial final, if they lose their first qualifier do they go into the Tier 2?
Does Tier 2 competition only start when all provincial finals are finished? E.G long wait for first round losers
Will New York play tier 2, will they travel?
The three dates are listed on the left so yes the so-called "Super 8's" are still there, as you'd expect given that's the only level that Croke Park give a shit about any more.

A terrible decision and it'll not improve the fortunes of those of us who are in the wilderness. But as long as certain people can keep themselves in favour in HQ that's what really matters.

It will be there for 2020 anyway and then its up for review as the 3 year trial period is over. I would personally scrap it and bring back knock out quarter finals but an educated guess says those at HQ will probably keep it.

Some interesting comments from Kevin McStay on the introduction of this second tier for the championship


"From what I gather, eight of the counties who could be involved next year voted against it," "That doesn't bode well for the inaugural staging.

"the worry i'd have is Aer Lingus and America could be more enticing to some after their provincial exit,"  "That will always be a concern, Let's say you're a Kildare,Roscommon or Armagh player and you get relegated from Div 2, will you be willing to keep going for this Tier 2 event? that said Div 2 looks really interesting next spring for all teams involved" 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 21, 2019, 03:38:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?
2 ways out of " the wilderness" - get up to Div  2 or reach a Connacht Final.
Surely both should be Sligo's aim and capability??
Almost certainly, we would seem to be the equivalent of a loyal government backbencher for HQ.

I take it you didn't see Sligo playing this year. We're not winning the Tommy Murphy Redux/Paidí Ó Sé/John Horan's legacy Cup anytime soon. In any case we couldn't get to D2 for two years even if we somehow got on a winning run, and have to go to Salthill next May so that's not happening either.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?
2 ways out of " the wilderness" - get up to Div  2 or reach a Connacht Final.
Surely both should be Sligo's aim and capability??

I think so, it is realisitic for a lot of tier 2 teams, Division 3 will be extremely competative i would imagine next year, Cork favourites to win it.

Imagine the relegation battle in Div 2 will be near championship level competitiveness.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 21, 2019, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 21, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)

I am happy it was voted in, however i would of went to 3 tiers, Senior, Inter and Junior, like we have in every single county in the country, however too many would complain and play the victim.

Its still not clear to me in some aspects.

Are the supers 8s gone and back to straight knockout QFs in tier 1?
All div 3 and 4 teams get qualifier chance if they lose their provincial final, if they lose their first qualifier do they go into the Tier 2?
Does Tier 2 competition only start when all provincial finals are finished? E.G long wait for first round losers
Will New York play tier 2, will they travel?
The three dates are listed on the left so yes the so-called "Super 8's" are still there, as you'd expect given that's the only level that Croke Park give a shit about any more.

A terrible decision and it'll not improve the fortunes of those of us who are in the wilderness. But as long as certain people can keep themselves in favour in HQ that's what really matters.

It will be there for 2020 anyway and then its up for review as the 3 year trial period is over. I would personally scrap it and bring back knock out quarter finals but an educated guess says those at HQ will probably keep it.

Some interesting comments from Kevin McStay on the introduction of this second tier for the championship


"From what I gather, eight of the counties who could be involved next year voted against it," "That doesn't bode well for the inaugural staging.

"the worry i'd have is Aer Lingus and America could be more enticing to some after their provincial exit,"  "That will always be a concern, Let's say you're a Kildare,Roscommon or Armagh player and you get relegated from Div 2, will you be willing to keep going for this Tier 2 event? that said Div 2 looks really interesting next spring for all teams involved"

I personally hate the Super 8s. I am hopeful for straigh knockout neutral venue Quarter finals from 2021.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 21, 2019, 04:02:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?


Doesn't seem to be that well received in sligo

Eamonn O' Hara

So the GAA have created a semi pro group and the the rest can Go f**k themselves

Gavin Crawley (who I think was the former Sligo GAA PRO?)

Tommy Murphy Cup Part 2 it end badly again shocking decision
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 21, 2019, 04:05:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?
2 ways out of " the wilderness" - get up to Div  2 or reach a Connacht Final.
Surely both should be Sligo's aim and capability??

I think so, it is realisitic for a lot of tier 2 teams, Division 3 will be extremely competative i would imagine next year, Cork favourites to win it.

Imagine the relegation battle in Div 2 will be near championship level competitiveness.

With the Tipp motion added late to congress, Cork won't have to worry about a second tier comp if they gain promotion from Div 3 next spring as they are expected to do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 21, 2019, 04:02:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2019, 02:46:09 PM
Sligo voted for it didn't they?


Doesn't seem to be that well received in sligo

Eamonn O' Hara

So the GAA have created a semi pro group and the the rest can Go f**k themselves

Gavin Crawley (who I think was the former Sligo GAA PRO?)

Tommy Murphy Cup Part 2 it end badly again shocking decision
Did their full Co Board vote on it or how was it decided to support it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on October 21, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
I'm not in favour of it and I'm glad my County Chairman from Antrim spoke against it.  Antrim's problems in football are of our own making, not the system.  We all live for 'the big day' and that's how kids catch the GAA bug.  We are reducing that for Antrim and others.  I heard Tomas on the radio supporting the plan.  I really like Tomas as a pundit, but it is impossible for him to have empathy with counties like Antrim.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 21, 2019, 11:04:45 PM
Time will tell. I for one agree with it, it provides more incentive in the league for div 2 and 3 teams, it gives teams a realistic shot at silverware and it leads to more competitive games.  If you don't like it them get to a provincial final or get out of the lower divisions - hopefully it will get good promotion from tv Etc....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on October 21, 2019, 11:13:36 PM
All fine and well there was always strong and weak counties.
........now what about the Dublin sized Elephant in the Room?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on October 21, 2019, 11:16:43 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on October 21, 2019, 11:04:45 PM
Time will tell. I for one agree with it, it provides more incentive in the league for div 2 and 3 teams, it gives teams a realistic shot at silverware and it leads to more competitive games.  If you don't like it them get to a provincial final or get out of the lower divisions - hopefully it will get good promotion from tv Etc....
TV is show business, there will be next to no promotion. I would take any assurances to the contrary with a large pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on October 21, 2019, 11:58:32 PM
I wouldn't necessarily be for or against it as a concept but the way it's being done seems very haphazard.

First off, (like the super 8s) it's not clear what problem this change is supposed to solve. As an aside, if the super 8 system is suitable for the A championship, why not for the B also?

If a tiered system is to be successful, it needs to be stand alone, not as a competition for teams who've been beaten. Obviously the provincial competitions are a problem with implementing something like that though.

Lastly, it does nothing to address the disparity in funding. That's not a dig at Dublin (although that funding issue needs to be addressed); right across the board, the teams that spend the most are the most successful. Something needs to be done to level the playing field there e.g. Tier 2 teams should get 50% more funding that tier 1 teams
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 22, 2019, 01:12:05 AM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 21, 2019, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 21, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on October 21, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 19, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
How do the qualifiers work now ?
I assume they are basically capped to 8 teams because the powers that be are assuming there will be 8 division 1 or 2 teams in the 4 provincial finals.
Does this mean the qualifiers can't begin until after the all the provincial semi finals are completed ?
Could a team be waiting for over 6 weeks for a qualifier if they are in the top 2 divisions and get knocked out in a premilarily round game like the losers of the Donegal v Tyrone game in Ulster next year ?


(https://www.gaa.ie/api/images/image/private/w_750,h_422,c_fill,g_auto,q_auto/b3hpawzw63t3owrdmmch.jpg)

I am happy it was voted in, however i would of went to 3 tiers, Senior, Inter and Junior, like we have in every single county in the country, however too many would complain and play the victim.

Its still not clear to me in some aspects.

Are the supers 8s gone and back to straight knockout QFs in tier 1?
All div 3 and 4 teams get qualifier chance if they lose their provincial final, if they lose their first qualifier do they go into the Tier 2?
Does Tier 2 competition only start when all provincial finals are finished? E.G long wait for first round losers
Will New York play tier 2, will they travel?
The three dates are listed on the left so yes the so-called "Super 8's" are still there, as you'd expect given that's the only level that Croke Park give a shit about any more.

A terrible decision and it'll not improve the fortunes of those of us who are in the wilderness. But as long as certain people can keep themselves in favour in HQ that's what really matters.

It will be there for 2020 anyway and then its up for review as the 3 year trial period is over. I would personally scrap it and bring back knock out quarter finals but an educated guess says those at HQ will probably keep it.

Some interesting comments from Kevin McStay on the introduction of this second tier for the championship


"From what I gather, eight of the counties who could be involved next year voted against it," "That doesn't bode well for the inaugural staging.

"the worry i'd have is Aer Lingus and America could be more enticing to some after their provincial exit,"  "That will always be a concern, Let's say you're a Kildare,Roscommon or Armagh player and you get relegated from Div 2, will you be willing to keep going for this Tier 2 event? that said Div 2 looks really interesting next spring for all teams involved"

I personally hate the Super 8s. I am hopeful for straigh knockout neutral venue Quarter finals from 2021.

No chance. Super 8's are here to stay as we'll be told it's a huge success, even if it's not.

The only way things will change is if everyone boycotts the championship, but we all know that won't happen.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 08:03:00 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 22, 2019, 01:12:05 AM


The only way things will change is if everyone boycotts the championship, but we all know that won't happen.

That's it in a nutshell, and agree will NEVER happen.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 22, 2019, 09:13:35 AM
The sad thing is that people are already losing interest. I used love attending knockout AI Quarter Finals in Croke Park  but couldn't be bothered going to round robin games as a neutral.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 09:24:58 AM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 09:13:35 AM
The sad thing is that people are already losing interest. I used love attending knockout AI Quarter Finals in Croke Park  but couldn't be bothered going to round robin games as a neutral.

Yeah it's becoming farcical, it's like anything now in life all about legacy.  Horan wants to make a name for himself, Dublin are 100% for the All-Ireland for the foreseeable future, this isn't about giving the smaller counties something to play for, this is side lining them so the hierarchy of the GAA don't have to address the major differences between the elite and the up and coming, sure all's good in Antrim / Derry (any second tier team) they got to the Semi of the second ballbag competition!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 22, 2019, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 09:24:58 AM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 09:13:35 AM
The sad thing is that people are already losing interest. I used love attending knockout AI Quarter Finals in Croke Park  but couldn't be bothered going to round robin games as a neutral.

Yeah it's becoming farcical, it's like anything now in life all about legacy.  Horan wants to make a name for himself, Dublin are 100% for the All-Ireland for the foreseeable future, this isn't about giving the smaller counties something to play for, this is side lining them so the hierarchy of the GAA don't have to address the major differences between the elite and the up and coming, sure all's good in Antrim / Derry (any second tier team) they got to the Semi of the second ballbag competition!

Yes, about 10-12 tier 2 teams will never make any headway now. 3/4 might go up to tier 1, but they'll be praised for "getting up off their arse" even though they'll yo-yo from 1 to 2. So effectively, the GAA won't be funding those lower 12-15 teams as "that's just their level"

Most of the top 12 are capable of having at least one good year, and have done this last 20 years (getting to an AI SF or F), eg. Kildare, Monaghan, Meath, Down, Cavan, Derry, Armagh, Fermanagh etc. Some could maybe do again, but they haven't a hope of competing properly. And if they want to win Sam, they need to "get up off their arse"... nothing to do with unfair advantages with funding, like!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on October 22, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 09:24:58 AM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 09:13:35 AM
The sad thing is that people are already losing interest. I used love attending knockout AI Quarter Finals in Croke Park  but couldn't be bothered going to round robin games as a neutral.

Yeah it's becoming farcical, it's like anything now in life all about legacy.  Horan wants to make a name for himself, Dublin are 100% for the All-Ireland for the foreseeable future, this isn't about giving the smaller counties something to play for, this is side lining them so the hierarchy of the GAA don't have to address the major differences between the elite and the up and coming, sure all's good in Antrim / Derry (any second tier team) they got to the Semi of the second ballbag competition!
I agree. People claim that the tiers 'work well' in hurling - although with the little coverage and little interest they get, I'm not sure what the success criteria is.
But the tiers help hide the massive gap there is between top and bottom. Counties with no interest in promoting the game can hide in plain site, GAA hq also escape any heat for not investing in the game where it is weakest.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 22, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
For better or worse this new "Tier" has been voted in by 3 to 1 majority.
So get on with it.
Counties that will be in it will be there on "merit" and up to them to prove they shouldn't be by either
Getting to D2
Reaching Provincial Final
Winning Tier 2.

Of course the GAA should have held off till the Review Committee completed their business.
They shouldn't have introduced it in year 3 of the 3 year "Super 8" system.
They should gave made it 4 groups of 4 as the old problem of teams getting 2 Summer games and over 6 months to their next competitive game remains.
How can they ever improve their standing in that scenario?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?
Seanie, what issues do the introduction of the Tier 2 competition address and improve? Who benefits from this and in what way?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
For better or worse this new "Tier" has been voted in by 3 to 1 majority.
So get on with it.
Counties that will be in it will be there on "merit" and up to them to prove they shouldn't be by either
Getting to D2
Reaching Provincial Final
Winning Tier 2.

Of course the GAA should have held off till the Review Committee completed their business.
They shouldn't have introduced it in year 3 of the 3 year "Super 8" system.
They should gave made it 4 groups of 4 as the old problem of teams getting 2 Summer games and over 6 months to their next competitive game remains.
How can they ever improve their standing in that scenario?

Hell of a statement, if everyone just got on with crap legislation / rules we would live in some kip.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 22, 2019, 01:43:05 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 22, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
For better or worse this new "Tier" has been voted in by 3 to 1 majority.
So get on with it.
Counties that will be in it will be there on "merit" and up to them to prove they shouldn't be by either
Getting to D2
Reaching Provincial Final
Winning Tier 2.

Of course the GAA should have held off till the Review Committee completed their business.
They shouldn't have introduced it in year 3 of the 3 year "Super 8" system.
They should gave made it 4 groups of 4 as the old problem of teams getting 2 Summer games and over 6 months to their next competitive game remains.
How can they ever improve their standing in that scenario?

Hell of a statement, if everyone just got on with crap legislation / rules we would live in some kip.

It's funny you say that on today of all days.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on October 22, 2019, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.

There are 32 teams across 4 divisions so there will always be 'failing' teams.  It is a zero sum game.   To fix the failing teams by giving them extra coaching they would get promoted which would create new failing teams..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 22, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.


There is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 02:08:26 PM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.


There is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

Agree, it will be played on a Saturday evening out in the sticks with no coverage whatsoever - bet all the players can't wait.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 22, 2019, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 02:08:26 PM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.


There is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

Agree, it will be played on a Saturday evening out in the sticks with no coverage whatsoever - bet all the players can't wait.

What's left of them, after the majority piss off to the States or just drop out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: shark on October 22, 2019, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 22, 2019, 02:08:26 PM
Quote from: five points on October 22, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.


There is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

Agree, it will be played on a Saturday evening out in the sticks with no coverage whatsoever - bet all the players can't wait.

In the first year of the Christy Ring Cup, the final (Westmeath v Down) was played before all-Ireland semi between Cork and Clare. It never happened again however.

The lure of the US won't be the only problem for tier 2 counties. There will be cases of clubs encouraging their county players to step away after the provincial championship to focus on club championship prep. It happens already, and will only become more frequent.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 22, 2019, 02:28:13 PM
Can a county board decide not to enter a team into this tier 2 if they so choose?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?
Seanie, what issues do the introduction of the Tier 2 competition address and improve? Who benefits from this and in what way?

It's a good question.

(1) I think it gives lower division sides a realitistic shot at winning an All Ireland title. (2) It gives the prospect of more games for intercounty players in those counties (I strongly suspect format will evolve and quite quickly to provide those games that the players want). Both of these I think are good things. (3) It takes out a round or two of meaningless qualifiers. Qualifiers were great in their initial stages with novel matchups etc but pretty soon harsh reality kicked in. Players have voted with their feet....going to the US as soon as they lost in provincial championships in recent times. The Tier 2 championship can give counties that chance of going on a run without the inevitable beating at the end. That can offer the chance of extra revenue generation (debatable I hear people say but the level of interest in the qualifiers doesn't make that a high bar).

Whether we like it our not the levels between the top teams and lower teams have widened in the last 25 years. Remember when the league quarter finals had 4 from D1, 2 from D2 and the winners of D3 and D4? And often the D3 and D4 winners would do quite well in the knockout stages. This simply wouldn't happen nowadays.

I'm not overjoyed about it. I think we should be focusing on the D3/D4 counties, especially those who've been stuck there for a long time, and try to improve standards. This would be preferable. However I don't see it happening in the short term so I'd feel this is worth a shot for now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 22, 2019, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?
Seanie, what issues do the introduction of the Tier 2 competition address and improve? Who benefits from this and in what way?

It's a good question.

(1) I think it gives lower division sides a realitistic shot at winning an All Ireland title. (2) It gives the prospect of more games for intercounty players in those counties (I strongly suspect format will evolve and quite quickly to provide those games that the players want). Both of these I think are good things. (3) It takes out a round or two of meaningless qualifiers. Qualifiers were great in their initial stages with novel matchups etc but pretty soon harsh reality kicked in. Players have voted with their feet....going to the US as soon as they lost in provincial championships in recent times. The Tier 2 championship can give counties that chance of going on a run without the inevitable beating at the end. That can offer the chance of extra revenue generation (debatable I hear people say but the level of interest in the qualifiers doesn't make that a high bar).

Whether we like it our not the levels between the top teams and lower teams have widened in the last 25 years. Remember when the league quarter finals had 4 from D1, 2 from D2 and the winners of D3 and D4? And often the D3 and D4 winners would do quite well in the knockout stages. This simply wouldn't happen nowadays.

I'm not overjoyed about it. I think we should be focusing on the D3/D4 counties, especially those who've been stuck there for a long time, and try to improve standards. This would be preferable. However I don't see it happening in the short term so I'd feel this is worth a shot for now.

I remember that well and since that was scrapped there is a case to make that the gap between the top and bottom divisions teams commenced because of it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on October 22, 2019, 09:44:31 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 22, 2019, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.

There are 32 teams across 4 divisions so there will always be 'failing' teams.  It is a zero sum game.  To fix the failing teams by giving them extra coaching they would get promoted which would create new failing teams..

That's what the GAA should be doing though, giving the most resources to the teams that are struggling the most (along with a framework that ensures that the money isn't just wasted) to try to ensure some balance between counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on October 22, 2019, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 22, 2019, 09:44:31 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 22, 2019, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: joemamas on October 22, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.

There are 32 teams across 4 divisions so there will always be 'failing' teams.  It is a zero sum game.  To fix the failing teams by giving them extra coaching they would get promoted which would create new failing teams..

That's what the GAA should be doing though, giving the most resources to the teams that are struggling the most (along with a framework that ensures that the money isn't just wasted) to try to ensure some balance between counties.

Absolutely agree on this. We need 32 strong counties ideally.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 01:25:52 AM
Seems Rhubarbia didnt send any delegates to the Special Congress  ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 23, 2019, 03:28:57 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 23, 2019, 07:51:51 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on October 23, 2019, 03:28:57 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 23, 2019, 09:17:17 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 01:25:52 AM
Seems Rhubarbia didnt send any delegates to the Special Congress  ;D

It's a disgrace, but no surprise.  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ringfort on October 23, 2019, 01:51:05 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 23, 2019, 07:51:51 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on October 23, 2019, 03:28:57 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.

I assume you are from a big senior club in your county?

Do you look at your junior and intermediate competitions as irrelevant? I assure you there are not to those that win them  if that is their usual level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 23, 2019, 04:42:09 PM
Quote from: Ringfort on October 23, 2019, 01:51:05 PM
Quote from: t_mac on October 23, 2019, 07:51:51 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on October 23, 2019, 03:28:57 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 22, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.

I assume you are from a big senior club in your county?

Do you look at your junior and intermediate competitions as irrelevant? I assure you there are not to those that win them  if that is their usual level.

But it's not a junior or intermediate competition, it's a piss off and leave the elite alone competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 05:20:32 PM
T mac needs to join Benny in the Counselling clinic.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 23, 2019, 10:57:22 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 05:20:32 PM
T mac needs to join Benny in the Counselling clinic.

For why?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 11:59:14 PM
Tier 2 syndrome
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 24, 2019, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 23, 2019, 11:59:14 PM
Tier 2 syndrome

You sound like a member of the I am alright to hell with the rest type, which is obviously the mentality of the hierarchy of the GAA coming up with this idea.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 24, 2019, 09:10:14 AM
You've a severe dose of it alright ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 24, 2019, 09:30:47 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 24, 2019, 09:10:14 AM
You've a severe dose of it alright ;D

I see why most give you a by-ball.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on October 24, 2019, 10:39:13 AM
Armagh will have a good chance of winning the tier 2 competition i'd imagine. After it's successful bedding in, I'd hope that a tier 3 competition will be introduced for the likes of Carlow, London, Leitrim and Derry. We must do everything to promote GAA in these weaker counties and winning silverware is a good start.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 24, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
Hence the McKenna Cup to allow Tyrone to feel some sense of achievement for the year ahead, you're right fair dues to the GAA, they should be rightly applauded.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Pearse Blue on October 24, 2019, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 24, 2019, 10:39:13 AM
Armagh will have a good chance of winning the tier 2 competition i'd imagine. After it's successful bedding in, I'd hope that a tier 3 competition will be introduced for the likes of Carlow, London, Leitrim and Derry. We must do everything to promote GAA in these weaker counties and winning silverware is a good start.
Derry lol, f u c k Trailer you are a twist merchant like
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 24, 2019, 04:44:14 PM
I see Horan and HQ are seeking a name for this tier 2 Cup any suggestions?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on October 24, 2019, 05:02:16 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 24, 2019, 04:44:14 PM
I see Horan and HQ are seeking a name for this tier 2 Cup any suggestions?
The cup should be named after someone who didn't ply their trade with one of the stronger counties.
I'd suggest naming it after Tommy Murphy of Leix.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 24, 2019, 05:28:56 PM
How about the Tomas Ó Murchú Cup? Maybe people won't notice.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 24, 2019, 06:02:21 PM
It should be called the John Horan Cup. I think everyone, on both sides of the debate, would be happy with that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 24, 2019, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 24, 2019, 06:02:21 PM
It should be called the John Horan Cup. I think everyone, on both sides of the debate, would be happy with that.

As mentioned elsewhere Horans Hoax cup?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 25, 2019, 07:21:30 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 24, 2019, 04:44:14 PM
I see Horan and HQ are seeking a name for this tier 2 Cup any suggestions?

You're not serious? If that's the case, you may kiss it goodbye.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
It should be called the All Ireland Senior 2/ Intermediate/Whatever Football Championship.
Calling it the Somebody Cup turns it into a Tournament straight away.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 25, 2019, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
It should be called the All Ireland Senior 2/ Intermediate/Whatever Football Championship.
Calling it the Somebody Cup turns it into a Tournament straight away.

Yeah that would make it special, up next we have highlights of the All Ireland Senior 2 Football Championship Match played out in the sticks somewhere with one man and his dog looking on at 30 boys who were left after the rest pissed off to America / had a bit of twinge and couldn't play etc.  - Right you have sold it to me, get the marketing team onto this light bulb moment.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: t_mac on October 25, 2019, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
It should be called the All Ireland Senior 2/ Intermediate/Whatever Football Championship.
Calling it the Somebody Cup turns it into a Tournament straight away.

Yeah that would make it special, up next we have highlights of the All Ireland Senior 2 Football Championship Match played out in the sticks somewhere with one man and his dog looking on at 30 boys who were left after the rest pissed off to America / had a bit of twinge and couldn't play etc.  - Right you have sold it to me, get the marketing team onto this light bulb moment.
Take your tablets!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 25, 2019, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: t_mac on October 25, 2019, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 25, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
It should be called the All Ireland Senior 2/ Intermediate/Whatever Football Championship.
Calling it the Somebody Cup turns it into a Tournament straight away.

Yeah that would make it special, up next we have highlights of the All Ireland Senior 2 Football Championship Match played out in the sticks somewhere with one man and his dog looking on at 30 boys who were left after the rest pissed off to America / had a bit of twinge and couldn't play etc.  - Right you have sold it to me, get the marketing team onto this light bulb moment.
Take your tablets!!!

Tell me do you work in marketing.  ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Call it the All Ireland Shield and move on.

—-

I'm coming around to the idea that there should be tiers. Except remove the "bottom 16" championship completely. If we have a strong league, then it becomes pointless. Like the LDV Vans cup or whatever it is called in England.

Instead, the top 16 teams each season - 4 Provincial champions (never runners-up), plus the 12 highest league finishers not including those 4 - enter a straight knockout AI competition.

This approach changes the emphasis for "weaker counties" away from teeing themselves up for annual slaughter in the championship, into scheduled targets and improvement over a couple of seasons, so that when they do make the last 16, they're more suited to it. It's a tad reminiscent of how the NFL playoffs work. You don't enter them by default; you earn the right, and once you're beaten, then you're done.

Reduces county running costs by half, as most counties would be done by the end of May.

Reduces the strain on club v county in the majority of counties each year.

Gives an increasingly meaningful national league programme an elevated respect almost right up there with the championship, and this would be reflected in attendances and coverage.

Maintains provincial championships and structures.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on October 25, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Call it the All Ireland Shield and move on.

—-

I'm coming around to the idea that there should be tiers. Except remove the "bottom 16" championship completely. If we have a strong league, then it becomes pointless. Like the LDV Vans cup or whatever it is called in England.

Instead, the top 16 teams each season - 4 Provincial champions (never runners-up), plus the 12 highest league finishers not including those 4 - enter a straight knockout AI competition.

This approach changes the emphasis for "weaker counties" away from teeing themselves up for annual slaughter in the championship, into scheduled targets and improvement over a couple of seasons, so that when they do make the last 16, they're more suited to it. It's a tad reminiscent of how the NFL playoffs work. You don't enter them by default; you earn the right, and once you're beaten, then you're done.

Reduces county running costs by half, as most counties would be done by the end of May.

Reduces the strain on club v county in the majority of counties each year.

Gives an increasingly meaningful national league programme an elevated respect almost right up there with the championship, and this would be reflected in attendances and coverage.

Maintains provincial championships and structures.

I can see the merit in it wobbler but you are missing one important point.

The GAA hierarchy want  to maximise revenue - your proposal would mean this wouldnt happen
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
There are 112 (or so) games in the National League programme. A 25% uplift in public interest there would surely offset some/most/all of this?

The GAA shouldn't be about profit either, though that's a different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on October 25, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
There are 112 (or so) games in the National League programme. A 25% uplift in public interest there would surely offset some/most/all of this?

The GAA shouldn't be about profit either, though that's a different kettle of fish.

Couldnt agree with you more - unfortunately its the only show in town at the moment.

Any changes wont be viewed on their merit - only how the rich get richer
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 02:37:02 PM

So my back of a feg packet figures, if following that proposal from me above:

- We would lose 24 qualifier matches (let's say 240k tickets at 10k per match)
- We would lose 12 Super 8 matches (say 300k tickets at 25k per match)
- We would lose the league finals (say 60k tickets)
- So around 600k tickets gone.

But we would gain

- 8 x Last 16 games (say 160k tickets at 20k per match).
- 4 quarter finals (say 120k tickets at 30k per match).
- So around 280k new tickets.

That leaves a deficit of 320,000 tickets.

With 112 national league games, the average gate would need to go up about 2,850 per game.

Of course championship tickets are more expensive, but the last 16 and QF prices negate the Super 8 ticket prices. So it's league prices vs qualifier prices, which aren't a major step apart at present.

A general uptake of 2-3k per league match is really not an inconceivable barrier, if the league were to becomes the serious priority competition.

——

Of course my estimate on tickets per game above are subject to probing. But I expect that of all those, the average qualifier attendance estimate is pitched too high. Games involving any of the bottom 8-10 counties would struggle to generate 4,000 attendees.

I'd also expect that quarter finals would usually gain far more traction at the gate than any Super 8 match. Similarly, provincial championship matches would be better attended under this system. Knockout football has that effect.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 29, 2019, 12:35:37 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 25, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Call it the All Ireland Shield and move on.

—-

I'm coming around to the idea that there should be tiers. Except remove the "bottom 16" championship completely. If we have a strong league, then it becomes pointless. Like the LDV Vans cup or whatever it is called in England.

Instead, the top 16 teams each season - 4 Provincial champions (never runners-up), plus the 12 highest league finishers not including those 4 - enter a straight knockout AI competition.

This approach changes the emphasis for "weaker counties" away from teeing themselves up for annual slaughter in the championship, into scheduled targets and improvement over a couple of seasons, so that when they do make the last 16, they're more suited to it. It's a tad reminiscent of how the NFL playoffs work. You don't enter them by default; you earn the right, and once you're beaten, then you're done.

Reduces county running costs by half, as most counties would be done by the end of May.

Reduces the strain on club v county in the majority of counties each year.

Gives an increasingly meaningful national league programme an elevated respect almost right up there with the championship, and this would be reflected in attendances and coverage.

Maintains provincial championships and structures.
I like this idea in general, with maybe some tweaks. Could live with it a bit more than being just cast off into a glorified B championship. In terms of the top 12 league teams I'd exclude teams relegated from D1 from inclusion in this category, but if they won their province (as Ros did in 2019) then they're back in contention. You could go something like:
Top 6 D1
Top 4 D2
D3 and D4 winners

And if teams in that 12 won their provinces then you would allocate the additional places to say, 5th in D2, D3 runners up, any from 3rd D3/D4 runners up/6th D2 etc. But relegation shouldn't be rewarded, it'd make staying in D1 all the more important.

Going on 2019 you'd have had Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Dublin, Galway, Monaghan, Meath, Donegal, Fermanagh, Kildare, Laois and Derry qualifying through the league, Roscommon through the provinces, leaving three places, going to Armagh, Westmeath and one of Down or Leitrim or Clare.

You could even have a round robin for the 16 teams if it came to it, with the provincial champions seeded, and the top two in each group going to the QF's. Would make more sense then how the group stage is shoehorned in as it stands.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 29, 2019, 01:34:11 PM
We have what we have for now no matter how many ideas ir systems us folk here come up with.
Let's wait till the famous Review Committee reports and see what their recommendations are.
As I said on another thread they're back to artificial Provinces again but are said to be also recommending a 2 County/2 Club weekends per month.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: t_mac on October 29, 2019, 02:26:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 29, 2019, 01:34:11 PM
We have what we have for now no matter how many ideas ir systems us folk here come up with.
Let's wait till the famous Review Committee reports and see what their recommendations are.
As I said on another thread they're back to artificial Provinces again but are said to be also recommending a 2 County/2 Club weekends per month.

A irrelevant mickey mouse competition, and an elite competition for the few, sure as long as Dublin keep wining who gives a shite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 29, 2019, 02:48:44 PM
Go off and lie in a dark room for a few hours ;D
And take your Tier2phobia tablets.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on October 29, 2019, 09:40:22 PM
It'll all end in tiers

*gets coat
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:20:23 AM
 :D :D :D ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 30, 2019, 03:09:14 PM
Pat Spillane, the two tier championship will not be good for football, his ten reasons why it won't work.



1. Weak get weaker

As has been demonstrated in hurling, the new competition won't improve a lot of the weaker counties. Essentially the tiered hurling championship has become a box-ticking exercise. I fear a similar fate for Tier 2 football.

2. Lack of game time

Some counties will continue to play only two championship games in the new look championship. How are they expected to improve?

3. Rich get richer

This vote was an exercise in elitism, which I'm afraid permeates throughout the GAA nowadays. The Liam MacCarthy Cup in hurling is now restricted to 12 teams and we have the Super 8s series in football.

The GAA is mirroring what's happening in wider Irish society, where the rich are becoming richer and the weaker are being virtually cut adrift.

4. Club/county balance

The new second tier is ignoring the biggest elephant in the GAA – the necessity of getting some kind of balance between the inter-county and club fixtures. I can't understand the haste in going ahead with the new series when the report of the Calendar Review Task Force is due to be published next month.

5. Decision making

Surely the decision should have been left to those most likely to directly impacted upon. Why would Dublin, Kerry or Kilkenny be unduly worried about a Tier 2 football championship? Significantly, half of the counties directly affected voted against the proposal.

6. TV exposure

Delegates were told that the final of the new championship is likely to be shown live on TV, thus guaranteeing it a high profile. Well I wouldn't hold my breath – that's a bit of like saying Brexit will work out grand.

7. All-Star tours

The other carrot dangled was the selection of a separate All-Star team and the possibility of a tour. Again I wouldn't be holding my breath.

8. Financing

On the tour theme, who is going to finance such a trip? Again the GAA has a habit of awarding only the elite when it comes to trips abroad.

Last year, for example, half of the participating counties in the Liam MacCarthy Cup got trips abroad. Galway and Kilkenny went to Australia while Limerick, Clare, Cork and Wexford played in Boston.

9. Disinterest

My hunch is that a sizeable chunk of the players who are eligible to play in the Tier 2 championship will opt out. As soon as their team is eliminated from the provincial series they will be more interested in hopping on a plane and heading for the US.

10. Sponsorship

The new competition will be heavily marketed and promoted by the GAA. This is another from the 'I wouldn't hold my breath' category. The GAA's PR department does not have a stellar record, and much will depend on whether the association can secure an a stand-alone sponsor.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 30, 2019, 04:53:00 PM
Although I would be skeptical about the success of the proposed two tiers. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture, and I think it's most certainly a step in the right direction. Yes, the current format may (most likely) need to be tinkered with down the line-  but in terms of what is trying to be achieve through this - I can get on board:

(1) Tying the league to championship
(2) Giving the so called weaker counties a chance to compete
(3) Promising to provide the tier 2 competition with media coverage / all-star tour etc.

Let's give it a chance and see how it turns out. Let's see if the GAA keep their "promises". I think we can all agree we needed some sort of change as the championship is getting harder and harder to watch as time goes on save a small number of matches per year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 30, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 30, 2019, 04:53:00 PM
Although I would be skeptical about the success of the proposed two tiers. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture, and I think it's most certainly a step in the right direction. Yes, the current format may (most likely) need to be tinkered with down the line-  but in terms of what is trying to be achieve through this - I can get on board:

(1) Tying the league to championship
(2) Giving the so called weaker counties a chance to compete
(3) Promising to provide the tier 2 competition with media coverage / all-star tour etc.

Let's give it a chance and see how it turns out. Let's see if the GAA keep their "promises". I think we can all agree we needed some sort of change as the championship is getting harder and harder to watch as time goes on save a small number of matches per year.

Based on what evidence? And it was given a chance before, what we have now is a second chance for a competition that was scrapped because it wasn't successful.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 30, 2019, 05:33:52 PM
Based on the what is going on at county level -  we need a change. The chances of a D1 team beating a D4 one is remote. Teams getting hammered out the gate year on year...I only have to look as far as my own county last year when we came up against two D1 teams.

You are 100% right, the Tommy Murphy was a shambles. But I'm sure the GAA are looking at and trying to correct the wrongs.  The key element is the PR / interest behind the competition, if they get that bit right then we are heading in the right direction imo. Time will tell but I am willing to give it a chance.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 30, 2019, 06:13:17 PM
It's a huge mistake in my opinion to tie the league and championship. We're going to be promoting or demoting for championship teams based on their league results in the crappy weather of January and February, which was already a ridiculously pressurised time of year.

15-20 years ago we had 18 teams in Division 1 and that helped a counties like Sligo, Limerick and Wexford to come on enormously. Now, we're pulling up the drawbridge on them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 30, 2019, 06:31:14 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 30, 2019, 05:33:52 PM
Based on the what is going on at county level -  we need a change. The chances of a D1 team beating a D4 one is remote. Teams getting hammered out the gate year on year...I only have to look as far as my own county last year when we came up against two D1 teams.

You are 100% right, the Tommy Murphy was a shambles. But I'm sure the GAA are looking at and trying to correct the wrongs.  The key element is the PR / interest behind the competition, if they get that bit right then we are heading in the right direction imo. Time will tell but I am willing to give it a chance.

When PR can work: when the core product is good, but public awareness is not.

When PR cannot work: when the core product is poor.

You can call the B Championship anything you like; the Shield, the B, the Tommy Murphy, the Celtic League, the Intermediate. You can throw 5 year's of AI marketing budget at it and demand prime time tv slots.

But you can't change the fact that in its formative years, this will be a competition in which a large percentage of its competitors will not be bothered about winning, and a decent number of competitors  will happily exit at the earliest stage possible. So even if you win the bloody thing, it's a win tarnished by the fact that the first serious challenge you might face might not come along until the second half of the final.

This, basically, is a crap product. PR will not be able to change that. The best it can do is mask the crapness of the product a little. It cannot shine it up.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Just had a look at what the Tier 2 competition would have looked like if it was in operation this year.

There would have been 15 teams in it (all the Division 3 and Division 4 teams for next year bar Cork, who wouldn't have been eligible because they got to a provincial final)

The 15 teams who would have been in it played 22 games in the qualifiers this year winning 7.

              Played        Won
Offaly        3                 2
Derry        2                1
Leitrim      2                1
Antrim      2               1
Down        2                1
Longford    2                1
Waterford  1                0
Wexford    1                0
Wicklow    1                0
Limerick     1                0
London      1                0
Louth       1                0
Carlow      1                0
Sligo            1                0
Tipperary     1                0

If the Tier 2 competition had been in place this year, the same teams would have played 29 games winning 15.

                      29   15
         
1   Finalist           4   4
2   Finalist           4   3
3   Semi-Finalist   3   2
4   Semi-Finalist   3   2
5   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
6   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
7   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
8   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
9   First Round   1   0
10   First Round   1   0
11   First Round   1   0
12   First Round   1   0
13   First Round   1   0
14   First Round   1   0
15   First Round   1   0

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:56:34 PM
While looking at the Tier 2 format, I was wondering about the sides who would have an exemption for reaching a provincial final.

I looked back over the last decade and these are the sides who would have gotten exemptions.
All of the 11 teams that got to the provincial finals from Tier 2 lost the provincial final.

                                                             Who they beat to get to the final               Losing Margin
                           
2019      Cork                                   Limerick                                         3
2018      Laois                                   Westmeath, Carlow                         18
2017      No-One            
2016      Westmeath                   Offaly, Kildare                                 15
2016      Tipperary                           Waterford, Cork                                 10
2015      Sligo                                   Roscommon                                         26
2015      Westmeath                   Meath, Wexford, Louth                         13
2014      No-One            
2013      London                           New York, Leitrim                                 16
2012      Sligo                                   New York, Galway                                 2
2011      Wexford                           Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow                 3
2010      Limerick                           Waterford                                         3
2010      Louth                           Longford, Kildare, Westmeath         2

Out of these 11 teams Tipperary in 2016 and Cork this year were the only teams who didn't follow up their loss in the provincial final with another loss.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the three year trial the Tier 2 sides look to have this aspect of the new format scrapped.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 10:31:03 AM
So are you not in favour of a tiered championship full stop. Or is it the just new format that you are against? If it's the new format what would you propose?

thewobbler..You are correct, and the fact is that by introducing more than one tier, the lower tiers will always be viewed as secondary (an inferior product) – that will be the perception. That doesn't mean it couldn't work out for the better long-term though. I think what the GAA throw at the second tier / budget will make a huge difference. Ok, we will have players going go to the US (we already have that). We will have players not committing (we already have this in abundance).

My view is we can either continue on as we are or we try to twist. The All Ireland is becoming less competitive each year, the beatings are getting worse, the players are becoming more disillusioned, the championship is becoming more one-sided. I'm open minded...not saying it's going to work out though.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 31, 2019, 11:40:28 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 31, 2019, 11:40:28 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 31, 2019, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Just had a look at what the Tier 2 competition would have looked like if it was in operation this year.

There would have been 15 teams in it (all the Division 3 and Division 4 teams for next year bar Cork, who wouldn't have been eligible because they got to a provincial final)

The 15 teams who would have been in it played 22 games in the qualifiers this year winning 7.

              Played        Won
Offaly        3                 2
Derry        2                1
Leitrim      2                1
Antrim      2               1
Down        2                1
Longford    2                1
Waterford  1                0
Wexford    1                0
Wicklow    1                0
Limerick     1                0
London      1                0
Louth       1                0
Carlow      1                0
Sligo            1                0
Tipperary     1                0

If the Tier 2 competition had been in place this year, the same teams would have played 29 games winning 15.

                      29   15
         
1   Finalist           4   4
2   Finalist           4   3
3   Semi-Finalist   3   2
4   Semi-Finalist   3   2
5   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
6   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
7   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
8   Quarter-Finalist   2   1
9   First Round   1   0
10   First Round   1   0
11   First Round   1   0
12   First Round   1   0
13   First Round   1   0
14   First Round   1   0
15   First Round   1   0

Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Nice work two hands, only comment I would make is that the win to loss ratio is 1 to 1 for every winner there is a loser so there would be 14 winners to 14 losers (unless you consider a bye to the second round a win).  Your point however is very valid, the win percentage is 50% rather than ~20% in the current format.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 31, 2019, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 31, 2019, 11:40:28 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on October 30, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
Most people critising seem to pointing out how it isn't perfect and I think you'd have to travel a fair bit to find someone who thinks it is.
However I really can't see how it's not an improvement on what it's replacing.

Beating a no-hoper team in a nothing competition means nothing to anyone.

Try telling that to all the junior and intermediate club champions round the country.

They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.

Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 31, 2019, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 11:48:06 AM
They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.
Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?

Because they're the primary championship competitions for the participating players and teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 31, 2019, 12:23:47 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 31, 2019, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 11:48:06 AM
They're not nothing competitions though, played by players who are for the most part itching for meaningful club football.
Why are they not 'nothing competitions'?

Because they're the primary championship competitions for the participating players and teams.

ie teams competing at their current level
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 12:40:55 PM
Completely disagree that they are nothing competitions...not for the teams competing in them anyway. I was at the Antrim Intermediate final this year, and the pride was bursting from the players / supporters from the winning team- Aldergrove (first title in 40+ years).  I believe the celebrations went on for days...

If it can work at club level, then why not county level?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 12:40:55 PM
Completely disagree that they are nothing competitions...not for the teams competing in them anyway. I was at the Antrim Intermediate final this year, and the pride was bursting from the players / supporters from the winning team- Aldergrove (first title in 40+ years).  I believe the celebrations went on for days...


Did someone say that they are nothing competitions?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 01:22:54 PM
it's being insinuated. What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 01:22:54 PM
it's being insinuated. What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?

With that question, it's you who are doing the insinuating.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 02:21:34 PM
I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
I think 5 Points is from the 6 Cos so would be automatically against anything new ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 02:21:34 PM
I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?
Because the two are not comparable.

Club championships are indeed tiered between senior, intermediate and junior. The new competition isn't. It's a shield competition for designated teams who fail to progress in the championship proper.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 31, 2019, 04:14:58 PM
The main point in the "why can't it work at county level when it works at club level" question, is one of culture.

The club championship has always been tiered and anyone growing up and coming into an adult club team is aware of this.

The intercounty championship has always been one tier and the same perception would apply.

Of course in 20, 30 or 40 years time we could look back and wonder how come we didn't have a tiered championship back in the 20th century. It made such sense

But in order for people to buy into a new culture, you need to listen to them and take on board what they want.

This proposal has ignored what the players' union has said. They specifically said that they wanted more meaningful games in the summer. Half of the teams in Tier 2 will still play two games. Another four will play just three.

This is very likely to fail when it needn't have.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 04:20:30 PM
Club championships are largely dictated by what division club teams are in within their league i.e. division 1 = senior championship.

Essentially, the new 2-tiered championship is mostly dictated by the same.

If the GAA introduced a third tier and removed the reward for getting to a provincial final, they would be operating in a very similar way.

For me, i'm open to the idea of trying to improve the championship - which I think is needed. If the interest level is right then it could work... of course, id be very worried about that aspect alone. But then again, i know how much attention my own county has received (and many of the other weaker counties) over the last number of years, so I can't see it being much worse.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 31, 2019, 04:25:12 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 02:21:34 PM
I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?

Here's why.

In club structures (well, I'm assuming in the majority of counties), you start your year with two goals in mind: a strong league campaign, and to win the championship in which you've been entered; Senior, Intermediate or Junior (this is even the case in B football).

Even the best footballer in the land can align his personal goals with his club's goals, no matter how meagre.

In the tiered county system, your goals may be the same, except a) you will want to win your provincial championship, and b) you are technically entered into the All-Ireland Championship by virtue of your provincial entry.

There will be 4-8 teams in D3 every year who have something of a chance of reaching a provincial final. The luck of the draw definitely matters here, as does gaining home advantage in a quarter-final.

They might not even have to hit form to do that. Offaly could qualify for a Leinster final having playing D4 teams only.

That draw will determine just how seriously they take the provincials, once the league is done. They'll be aware of this challenge from the previous October and will train accordingly.

But they're not the ones that the tired system hurts.

A better example would be Down, Derry or Cork in D3. Call them sleeping giants, call them underachievers, call them last year's man. Call them whatever you want.

They're still big counties and will pump time and money into trying to get promoted. And if they don't, they'll pump time and money into winning their province, no matter who they're drawn against.

Should that journey end in a semi-final defeat, then this new competition is effectively asking everyone involved to reset their season goals, and immediately refocus on a new, fourth goal.

Except this goal is one that is much less prestigious, and for a large percentage of players (especially during the formative years of this competition), will be at best a sideshow, when they want to be playing club football, or earning a few quid in America.

Yet county boards still have to finance this sideshow. Club fixtures secretaries still have to balance these unwanted fixtures into their calendars.

County managers will have to convince players to put aside club commitments and american overtures. Even if they can manage that, they've the harder job again of motivating them on the day to treat it like championship football, when it's not. Not in its formative years anyway, as it will be missing the fundamental spirit of championship football, which is that everyone on the pitch wants to win.

If it were to run long enough, undoubtedly the B Championship would produce a success story of a county progressing from B Champions to AI Champions, whether by accident or design.

I just can't see the competition lasting long enough for this to happen. The absolute peak of what it can achieve in its first 3-5 years is a good final between two teams on an upward curve, and generate a sense of good will around GAA followers. But even that would be mostly lost by the following spring when all the more important competitions kick back into the memory.

A more likely outcome is that by year 3, counties will begin to opt out, and the subsequent final will take place on a Saturday afternoon July, somewhere in the midlands in front of 400 people, with only a shakycam recording the action. And we will have gone full circle to the AI B Championship of 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2019, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 01:22:54 PM
What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?

That's like asking what is the difference between a pint of Guinness and glass of coke a cola.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 05:24:51 PM
Good post by Wobbler.
In trying  to get the Tier 2 voted through the GAA have brought in "escape clauses" which emasculate the Competition in effect.
By the way what's with "400 people Saturday night in the Midlands" ?
You're about the 5th poster to come up with that scenario ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: CountyColours on October 31, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
Some great points Wobbler, definitely food for thought. I can see where you are coming from 100% – it's far from perfect. The only thing I would say is there are already many county standard players out there at the moment who have are opting out / going to the states / don't want to commit. I don't think we are going to see a major variance in this based on the old championship format versus the new one. Players do not have the same level of interest nowadays based on (1) realistic prospects and (2) commitments required.

For the underachievers, such as Cork, Down etc. there will be no better incentive to get yourself promoted to division 2 – knowing you will end up playing in the tier 1 championship. This will make division 2 and 3 especially competitive which I think is good. I would not have much sympathy for teams that miss the cut, that is sport, keep building and the provincial championships will still lie ahead for those teams to push on.

If you flip the argument upside down and look majority teams in division 3 and 4 (Antrim, Wicklow, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, etc..) on the whole what were their championship goals pre-2 tier? I would guess it's to win one championship game...and to do this you hope that you get another division 3 or 4 team in your provincial championship / qualifier game. Gaining promotion in the league is arguable more important for those clubs.

My initial point was that the championship as it stood needed change. This may not be the right way to go about it - but i'm willing to give it a trial.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:54:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 05:24:51 PM
Good post by Wobbler.
In trying  to get the Tier 2 voted through the GAA have brought in "escape clauses" which emasculate the Competition in effect.
By the way what's with "400 people Saturday night in the Midlands" ?
You're about the 5th poster to come up with that scenario ;D

Remember this http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/article/index/110157

"Is the prize of gaining promotion to be sent to Longford on a Saturday night?"  8)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 31, 2019, 06:18:12 PM
But the point is CountyColours that the back door qualifiers have never been anything other than a stay of execution for D4 teams. It decreased their chances of reaching the latter stages of the AI. Any train of thought that suggested otherwise was always misguided.

But what the back door seems to have done has festered a belief among many Gaels that there is some system out there that somehow will make the championship more rewarding for our weaker counties.

The fundamental reality is this dream system just doesn't exist. Giving them more games against stronger sides only increases the number of batterings they'll take. Giving them more games against weaker sides before letting the big guns loose on them is simply cruel.

The clear and obvious answer is not to give them more games in a competition they're not fit for. So in principle I fundamentally agree with a 16 team AI championship.

But unfortunately this clear answer is then twisted and turned into a "we have to give them something instead". This isn't true. What weaker counties need more than anything is a strong National League that will allow them to improve gradually. A shortened season in which game time and training time is closer to equal, should help them ensure their best players come onboard fully committed.

Nobody really needs a B championship. And most people don't want one.

——

The remark about the Midlands is simple. Once everyone can accept that a B final in an empty Croke Park has all the same atmosphere as a bad mass, it'll be shuffled around the country. When there's a local-ish derby, it will sensibly be put in a convenient location to both counties and the attendance will reflect. When it's counties from either end of Ireland it will be sensibly put in a halfway house in the midlands, and nobody will attend, even if it is the right location.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on October 31, 2019, 08:55:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.
So about 50% of the affected counties then.

Hopefully I'm wrong. Genuinely I do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
The current system went past its sell-by date. Public interest in the qualifiers was falling.
The GAA have learnt from previous iterations. They like money and a good B championship
will mean more income. If the GAA promote it properly the media will follow. There are options
to redesign down the road if necessary. The system should help teams develop which wasn't the case
with the current set up. There is still the question of what TF to do with Dublin but that is for another day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 31, 2019, 09:16:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.

That's far from the true reflection of GAA members.

Congress is not true democracy. The CPA knew the current charade needing changing, but their motion was defeated at Congress, obviously.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 11:51:29 PM
Congress is the decision making body.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 10:24:24 AM
Anyone who has ever attended Congress know that its a hive of politcking and horsetrading. A huge amount of canvasssing goes on to ensure that every major motion backed by Croke Park ends up getting passed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 10:52:43 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.
A mixture of those who can confidently know they'll never have to worry about it, the few true believers that do and the rest happy to do what they're told by HQ in order to stay in favour for committee places and chairmanships etc.

Incidentally I see the IFA are having their presidential elections shortly, and each member has a vote in it. I can't wait to be able to vote on who will be Horan's successor  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 11:19:38 AM
Get yourself elected as a Congress delegate and you can.
Or start with a motion at your Club AGM that the Uachtarán be directly elected by the membership.
I suspect you'll have a better chance of the forner ;D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on November 27, 2019, 11:57:23 AM
So the fixtures plans for next year has already shown that the Tier 2 final could be a standalone game at Croke Park.
That's record time for a u-turn even for the GAA.
Thought it was to be played before the All-Ireland final?  A festival of football promised.
As suspected, lets tick the box and get it out of the road so the top teams can get showcased.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on November 27, 2019, 12:42:44 PM
It was never to be before the AI Final.
The odd person here and there suggested that but was never an official proposal.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:59:40 PM
Quote from: FermGael on November 27, 2019, 11:57:23 AM
So the fixtures plans for next year has already shown that the Tier 2 final could be a standalone game at Croke Park.
That's record time for a u-turn even for the GAA.
Thought it was to be played before the All-Ireland final?  A festival of football promised.
As suspected, lets tick the box and get it out of the road so the top teams can get showcased.

Why would you even consider putting the tier 2 final before the AI final? Is the Joe McDonagh final played before the AI hurling?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on November 30, 2019, 07:38:40 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/john-horan-favours-making-leagues-part-of-summer-championship-season-1.4099873

John Horan favours making leagues part of summer championship season
GAA president admits disappointment over Club Players' Association's withdrawal from fixture talks


Seán Moran in Abu Dhabi

0
   
GAA president John Horan has indicated that he favours moving the national leagues into the summer, as part of the championship. He made the radical remarks during a press briefing in Abu Dhabi, which is hosting this year's PwC All Stars trip.

The issue of championship reform will feature largely in the report of the Fixtures Calendar Review Task Force, which is due to be published next week.

"I personally would be very much in favour of one of the new proposals when they come out next week," said Horan.

Asked what this was, he replied that the task force had one further meeting and that he wouldn't comment before next week but he did elaborate on some of the ideas.

"There is the flip of the league from earlier in the year to the summer and then the creation of the four eights [rationalising the provincial structure]. They are some of the ideas that are likely to come onto the table. You know, maybe the league in the summer could be the answer."

He also commented on the Club Players' Association's withdrawal from the task force just before its conclusion and the accompanying comments on what it saw as the likely outcome of the deliberations.

"I was somewhat disappointed that they actually withdrew. In fairness, I took some criticism [from within the GAA] for initially including them in the process but I was quite happy to do that; you know, it is disappointing. We can wait until next Wednesday when we are going to launch the actual report."

The CPA accused the task force of being committed to preserving the status quo of the current intercounty football calendar rather than meaningful fixture reform that might benefit club players. Horan said that he believed there was a mood for radical change.


"Within that group there is. When you see the proposals when we have a media briefing next Wednesday, you will see. I think it's a bit unfortunate some of the information from the group has been leaked into the public domain. That's somewhat disloyal. But, we are where we are. The lads have worked hard. We are at it since June."

He further said that the inclusion of the current championship format as an option, which was criticised by the CPA, had been intended to use the format which is on trial as a backstop rather than revert to the status quo ante from 2017.

"You have got to look at it in a context. We are in a trial phase at the moment, and when the three years lapse, at the end of the next championship in 2020, it's either bring in a new proposal or revert back. That's the way it works.

"In case some of these new ideas are not accepted you would have to then bring a proposal to the table to maybe continue where we are, rather than flip back to where we were three years ago, because I don't think anyone would accept going back to where we were three years ago would be a good move.

"That's why this kind of status quo element has come on the table."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on November 30, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Very well put by Horan. Very open-minded about all the options that will be produced.

He forgot one small thing though..........that there'll be a Tier 2 Championship regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on November 30, 2019, 09:31:22 AM
Passed 3 to 1 at the Special Congress ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on February 19, 2020, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 21, 2019, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.
(https://i.ibb.co/XpKhZZy/westmeath-chair.jpg)

The line about when the controversy ends they will lose interest encapsulates everything that is wrong with this debate and could equally be applied to the situation on here. Keyboard warriors bandwaggoning onto a cause and championing it until they see achieve 'success' for their 1 eyed point of view. Then move on to the next "issue".

It has nearly got to the stage where the GAA is being run by twitter.

Not nice to see a whiff of sectarianism off a county chairman.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on December 07, 2020, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

If your county wants to commit football suicide that's your problem but please don't drag the rest of us with you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 02:46:32 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.
The problem with this is it's just the Tommy Murphy Cup

The problem with a genuine Tier 2 competition with total separation from Tier 1 is it takes away the prospect of a provincial title and effectively ends any sort of ambition for weaker counties, it condemns teams to a yo-yo situation at best, like what Antrim and Laois have at the moment in hurling

The solution is in revamping the league to make it less elitist and to give more teams more experience of playing against better teams

The current league format works for Division 1 teams only, it works for nobody else

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.
The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: five points on December 07, 2020, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

If your county wants to commit football suicide that's your problem but please don't drag the rest of us with you.

I'm not dragging anyone, I'm simply saying that a team like Sligo should continue to play in the Connacht championship and if they win (or get to the final) they play Tier 1.  If not, the go into Tier 2 where they should be competitive and the games would probably be more enjoyable to watch.  Cavan and Tipperary were hammered this past weekend and the games were not good promotion for the GAA, the League has become more enjoyable than the championship simply because the games are more competitive.  It may be football suicide but it might be less painful than a firing squad...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on December 07, 2020, 03:40:13 PM
Camogie has tiers and the LGFA followed a similar strategy, with Fermanagh playing Wicklow in Junior this year. These counties are not going to topple Dublin off the senior championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2020, 03:42:43 PM
At least in a Tier 2 there won't be any 5 in a row (I'm assuming that the winners are guaranteed T1 the following year?)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 03:43:03 PM
Speaking from an antrim perspective I don't think it has been terrible at all since the Joe McDonagh. Before that I would fully agree. I also think Offaly have just been in decline for a long time. It is not as if they have declined since they got into the lower tiers - they were in decline when they got there and I am not even sure how long Offaly have been in these tiers - is it 2? If it is then they got relegated in their first year and now they can't win the christy ring. If that is the case then they would just have been taking hammerings from the top teams.

From an antrim perspective in the 80s we just had a great crop of players, our standards then dropped and continued to drop. This happened long before lower tiers to be honest. There were a few exceptions to that mind you - like Eddie Brennan in Laois Dinny Cahill was a saviour for us. Offaly had an exceptional crop too and it has just been downhill since then. (If you remember the Dublin game that was a Dinny Cahill year but I still maintain if I were a Dublin supporter I'd have been very annoyed with Dotsie O'Callaghan who decided to run round players because he could and never stuck the ball over the bar. I have never seen a game where one guy was capable of so much and did so little.)

The league is now much better for teams in that yo-yo position I think too. Basically antrim need the likes of westmeath, carlow and / or laois to be in there to have a chance of staying up and then if we can beat them we can get a few years learning. The same goes for either of them. I didn't realise on Leinster but that will help too.

The yo yo thing is valid but I just don't know what they do about that.

If too many teams are let into the top tier then the big advantage of the hugely competitive games you get at mcdonagh level goes away and it becomes like the ring used to be so if you let too many in at the top you create problems further down too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.
The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on December 07, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM


Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.


Yet Meath were in Div 1 this year and got utterly hammered in the Leinster final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.
The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.
But the league is a tiered system and it has amplified the gap between the strong and the weak

Obviously in a league there has to be some element of tiers, but Divisions 1 to 4 is too much

Instead of having one Division 1 with the usual suspects, if you had two equal 8 team Division 1 and Division 2 groups of 8 teams with two from each group qualifying for semi-finals, it would give a better spread of really competitive football for everybody

Division 1A might be
Dublin
Donegal
Tyrone
Meath
Kildare
Laois
Westmeath
Cork

Division 1B might be
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Monaghan
Down
Armagh
Clare

In hurling the weaker counties have been pretty much cut out of playing better opposition in both league and championship, they can never make real progress




Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 05:47:35 PM
Quote from: five points on December 07, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM


Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.


Yet Meath were in Div 1 this year and got utterly hammered in the Leinster final.

And didn't win a game in the league. So hammered in the league also


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 05:52:01 PM
In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 06:02:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
To kind of counter that though. The best thing to happen hurling in the last number of years IMO has been the Joe McDonagh. It has a small set of teams who are very competitive with each other and there is good incentive to get out of it. The hurling at that kind of level was "calibrated" wrong initially and the gaps were far too big in the christy ring cup so it wasn't just yo-yoing it was hammer everyone one year and get hammered by everyone the next year. While the Joe McDonagh cup can mean a bit of yoyoing the teams need to be top of their game when they come back down otherwise they won't go back where they want to be. There isn't much between antrim, carlow, westmeath (except this year for whatever reason) and tbh bar a year or two there probably Laois. (remains to be seen where they go from now).

The Christy Ring cup is also now very competitive. The best teams coming out of it are competitive in the Joe McDonagh too. Next year will be very interesting to see how Kildare get on.

I used to agree in the two tier thing being rubbish but since the Joe McDonagh I now believe if it is done right then it can be a great thing.

The flip side is RTE hardly show any matches from lower tiers. The Joe McDonagh in particular is a competition where if you lose one game you could be in big trouble so there is rarely a less than full blooded match in it. It would have made great viewing and thank god for TG4 showing it.
The tiered system in hurling is probably alright for Donegal and Cavan and Armagh and teams like that who otherwise would have nothing at all to play for but I think it has been terrible for Offaly, Antrim and Laois - teams who at one point or another would have been genuinely competitive against top tier counties

And yes I know Laois beat Dublin last year, but I think that was down to Eddie Brennan managing them more than anything else, it wasn't down to the system improving them

Leinster has a problem in that there are four genuinely competitive counties in Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway and Dublin

Then there are a big group counties, who could all make up the numbers - Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, or Antrim, if you're to still consider Antrim part of Leinster for hurling purposes, maybe Down or Kildare or Meath might aspire to join that group

Then you've the bizarre situation where Kerry would play in Leinster rather than Munster next year should they win the Joe McDonagh Cup this year

But all these teams are not good enough to compete with the four top tier Leinster counties on a regular basis, so they're trapped in yo-yo land

Laois might catch a break next year because Kerry or Antrim would probably finish below them in Leinster, it's being expanded to six teams, but at the same time, it would be hard to see Laois break into the top three, so they'll probably be trapped in a perennial fifth place out of six, or fourth at best, which is still a non-qualifying position

The tiered system works and even more so after the debacle at the weekend..

You've got to be competing with genuine title contenders, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Galway, and Monaghan. These teams have shown that during the league they'll take points off each other, championship is different as we have seen, but the league will become so important if it decides which championship you play in. That'll surely focus the minds during the league.

Why it works for hurling is obvious, since the back door was introduced the bigger teams get a second bite at the cherry, they get a bonus of playing a team in a lower tier generally which reintroduces them back into championship.

Laois, Carlow, Kerry and Antrim are a level or two below the big teams, it would take a few seasons in 1b for these teams to get the level up a notch or two, so that when they meet a top tier team they'll have played them

Same for football, teams need to be competing in div 1/2 otherwise they'll get hammered. By all means play the provincial championship but if we get another fluke next year then the teams will get duffed again.

Not a fan of the super 8's just extending the championship further.
But the league is a tiered system and it has amplified the gap between the strong and the weak

Obviously in a league there has to be some element of tiers, but Divisions 1 to 4 is too much

Instead of having one Division 1 with the usual suspects, if you had two equal 8 team Division 1 and Division 2 groups of 8 teams with two from each group qualifying for semi-finals, it would give a better spread of really competitive football for everybody

Division 1A might be
Dublin
Donegal
Tyrone
Meath
Kildare
Laois
Westmeath
Cork

Division 1B might be
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Monaghan
Down
Armagh
Clare

In hurling the weaker counties have been pretty much cut out of playing better opposition in both league and championship, they can never make real progress

Yes amplified showing the difference, so why would you have teams that get that can't compete in the league pit themselves against the likes of Dublin Mayo?

As for Hurling, Laois Carlow and Kerry have made massive strides, still 15 points off the top teams, 8 to 10 points off the second bunch.  They along with ourselves will be yo-yo teams until we get our act together.

The breakthrough for any aspiring County team needs to be done at grassroots and a strategic plan required, which of course needs money, which Croke should cover, but like anything before you throw money at it you need a business plan, how's that money going to be spent, monitored and assessed throughout.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on December 07, 2020, 06:38:31 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 05:52:01 PM
In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)

Division four?? What would a Division one team (Meath) learn from playing Dublin?!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 06:42:21 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 05:52:01 PM
In hurling though when there's a big gap you get tanked. You look at your example Offaly - they were shipping some heavy beatings and were learning nothing. I have sadly watched some heavy beatings in the hurling too.

Football has started to become like it. The professionalism of the top seven or eight teams is on a different level to the rest. There are a lot of games no one is getting anything from any more.  Take an example- what would a division four county learn from playing Dublin?

Maybe two divisions together is ok but then the multiple trophies in hurling gives most counties something to aim for. That has just gone from the football. (That is not a give up btw it is an you earn your right to be in these competitions)
Well Offaly weren't that bad until five or six years ago, even in 2010 they were able to draw with Galway and in 2013 they gave Kilkenny a right game in Leinster, sticking four goals past them

Even in 2018 they got within nine points of Kilkenny in Nowlan Park

Now hurling in Offaly might well be killed off effectively for good because Offaly hurlers are separated from any meaningful exposure to top level hurling, how can they improve, they're stuck in the mire

A Division 4 football team might not learn much from playing Dublin right now, but every year that the current league system is in place reinforces the gap between the strong and the weak and it reinforces that sense of professionalism v amateurism, so you end up with a hurling type scenario

The general point about a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 is that it exposes more teams to a better standard of football on a regular basis, year after year, plus it acts as at least a slight check on the check on the top counties

Every year the current league system remains in place, it amplifies the gap - the gap between Division 1 and Divsion 4 is massive

The gap between Division 1A and Division 2A wouldn't be as much

Every year that a 16 team Division 1 would be in place, it would help to make things more competitive in general

Sligo or Offaly might play Cork or Down, or Tipperary or Derry - better teams - rather than being stuck in a vicious circle of Division 4 football with Waterford, Carlow and London which offers no real avenue to improve

They might have a realistic shot of getting promotion to Division 1

Armagh, for example, might have the opportunity to improve from playing the same teams as Dublin are playing, on a regular basis - and they might have a hope of staying up - as opposed to likely relegation next year, like Meath and Roscommon suffered when they found the jump from Division 2 was too much

This would help to expose them to the sort of teams they need to be playing to make an impact in the championship

Obviously on its own, this system is not enough, but it's one element of several in terms of evening things up


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
So Kerry playing Clare will do what for each team?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 06:02:46 PM
Yes amplified showing the difference, so why would you have teams that get that can't compete in the league pit themselves against the likes of Dublin Mayo?
The league system itself is an active driver of the gap between the strong and the weak

If the strong keep playing the strong, they get stronger because they're constantly exposed to a high level of football

If the weak keep playing the weak and only the weak, they get weaker in relation to the strong, who keep galloping ahead

How can you improve if you're never exposed to a decent level of football?

So you need to redress the balance somewhat in terms of competition
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 06:51:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
So Kerry playing Clare will do what for each team?
It will do more for Clare than it will for Kerry

That's the point

This system was used with much success in the 2000s, and it drove competitiveness across the board

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on December 07, 2020, 08:10:19 PM
Nothing wrong with the tiered nature of the league. The tiering allows counties make incremental, measurable progress. You could argue that three tiers instead of four would be better in a future where the league and championship combine, but tiering as a concept is fine. It works at club level, at school level, in hurling, in ladies football, in camogie. It would work in intercounty championship football too, given a chance.

Token exposure for weaker sides didn't do much for anyone when the system was in use 20 years ago. The competition became like an extended McKenna Cup, with experimentation rife and few counties taking the competition seriously. In 2002, Armagh and Kerry were the two best teams in the country. But both had also allowed themselves fall away to Division 2A in the NFL, such was their indifference towards the competition. The weaker counties were learning nothing playing against disinterested, half-strength versions of the big boys.

But none of it really matters in a world where one team wins everything. This is all just shuffling deck chairs until something is done about that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:24:34 PM
A second championship filled with the likes of Meath Cavan Tipp Roscommon Kildare Armagh Cork Derry and other liked teams would provide a tight tournament with the winners gaining promotion to the Sam Maguire.

None of the teams above will win Sam in the next ten years if they continue to muddle along, when you are fighting to get out of a group that would be equal enough in terms of talent then that puts you in good stead going forward, losing a match in your championship and maybe winning one qualifier won't progress you at all
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.
The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive






Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 08:45:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on December 07, 2020, 08:10:19 PM
Nothing wrong with the tiered nature of the league. The tiering allows counties make incremental, measurable progress. You could argue that three tiers instead of four would be better in a future where the league and championship combine, but tiering as a concept is fine. It works at club level, at school level, in hurling, in ladies football, in camogie. It would work in intercounty championship football too, given a chance.

Token exposure for weaker sides didn't do much for anyone when the system was in use 20 years ago. The competition became like an extended McKenna Cup, with experimentation rife and few counties taking the competition seriously. In 2002, Armagh and Kerry were the two best teams in the country. But both had also allowed themselves fall away to Division 2A in the NFL, such was their indifference towards the competition. The weaker counties were learning nothing playing against disinterested, half-strength versions of the big boys.

But none of it really matters in a world where one team wins everything. This is all just shuffling deck chairs until something is done about that.

But it hasn't worked in inter-county football

The current Divisions 1 to 4 system came back in in 2008

It took a few years for the gaps to open up in a big way, but they opened up, and got wider

Division 1 is such a high standard of football that those who get in and are able to stay in open up a yawning gap on even the Division 2 teams

When the league had 16 teams each in Division 1 and Division 2, it was a more competitive championship across the board

Sligo and Fermanagh and later Wexford were genuinely contending at the business end of the championship - all were Division 1 teams and all reached at least league semi-finals shortly before they went deep in the championship, Sligo and Fermanagh reached league semi-finals in 2001 and 2003 respectively, and Wexford reached a league final in 2005

I don't think they could have gone so deep in the championship without the good standard of league football they were used to - that standard of regular football brought all of them on hugely

Also Armagh and Kerry falling into Division 2 and still reaching an All-Ireland was proof that the gap between counties and divisions was much closer then -  it was a better system

NFL Division 1 now is a good television product, but that's all it is - it has helped to ruin competitiveness in general

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:54:52 PM
I'm talking championship, it's not been done before, leagues unfortunately in football are not taken too seriously by all the teams, otherwise Dublin would be going for 10 in a row.

Are you telling me Tipp should be in a fight for Sam? Or Cavan for that matter?

And explain why
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:56:45 PM
Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on December 07, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.
The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

On the Hurling example - Hurling has improved. The problem is that counties like Antrim and Offaly have been left behind.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.
The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 09:18:33 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 07, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
The game has evolved a lot since then. I think we possibly come from different perspectives here in that you are from a very strong county and myself and mr are not. The constant beatings are not improving us and you could say the same for a number of other counties.

I don't remember offaly's scores from all their games to be honest but I just remember regular post-mortems on them. They haven't been near taking a scalp in a lot of years and are where they deserve to be (no harm to them as I always liked Offaly). They're a county like Antrim who clearly haven't been going anywhere football wise either so what is happening isn't working for them.

Football wise the same could be applied to Wicklow, Wexford, Leitrim, louth(where they go will be very interesting), a team like Laois, Waterford, arguably limerick although they should have beaten tipp this year. The list could go on. There are exceptions- Fermanagh always play above themselves. I am not even sure where I would put Westmeath any more. Sligo I would say the same for.

Also this last few years in hurling Westmeath, Carlow, Kerry and Meath have improved massively. Kildare look to be heading that direction too. Laois have always been a similar level. We have had to improve massively or we would be in the Christy ring too. I would say Westmeath, Carlow and maybe Kerry are the best they have been in my lifetime.

Basically something needs done because football is definitely dying a bit at inter county level. Watching teams in division four try to implement tactics that Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc use is painful to watch too but maybe that's another story but having the chance to win something might hopefully change that.
The principle is the exact same - always has been, always will be

If you're exposed to a higher level of competition on a regular basis, you have more chance to improve, if all you're exposed to a low level of competition, you have less chance to improve

This is not a short term fix and is not a stand alone fix - it has to be accompanied by other thing, and in the first few years, teams will ship heavy beatings in some matches - but not all - but you have to start somewhere in terms of evening things up

For all the talk of improvements in hurling in weaker counties, I just don't see it at all, like, what's improvement, is it improvement in terms of skill levels compared to where your team was 10 or 15 years ago or is it improvement in terms of competitiveness - the latter is all that matters, and I don't think that has improved at all, it's got worse

Westmeath beat Dublin in Leinster in 2006, they wouldn't get near them now

If it's the former, you could argue that Leitrim have made strides in football because their team is probably fitter and more skilled than the team they had 15 years ago, but in terms of competition, they're less competitive

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

On the Hurling example - Hurling has improved. The problem is that counties like Antrim and Offaly have been left behind.

Antrim are promoted and play final on Sunday, but I get your point about Offaly
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on December 07, 2020, 09:21:47 PM
Changing competition structures will do damn all for improving the lot of any county. Money and expertise is what counts
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 09:27:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:28:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:56:45 PM
Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.
If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 07, 2020, 08:58:39 PM

Dublin won the Leinster Championship in 2006. Westmeath beat them in 2004.

Westmeath beat Dublin in hurling in 2006
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 09:34:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.
The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly

Brennan just added to the massive work put in by Cheddar, you'd be foolish to think otherwise.

Beating Dublin 11 years ago .. around the time Dublin football took off!

You can't improve unless the grassroots is in place, sustaining top tier is about improving your underage and schools, pissing against the wind if you think otherwise. Dublin hurling wise did that, they competed and playing the bigger teams is easier at senior level.

I think and it's my opinion that I've seen enough of second tier championship to see benefits... I didn't see any benefits at the weekend of lower teams playing the likes of Mayo or Dublin

Until we Laois Carlow Westmeath and Kerry break into that we won't stay and just be a yo-yo team.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:42:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 09:34:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
So you haven't watched any of the Joe McDonagh games? Why would you? Sunday game won't show them.

Laois pushed Clare this year, beat Dublin a while back, even Antrim beat Dublin under Daly.

Carlow and Kerry are very decent too, and physically big, what we small teams lack is quickness on the ball, that'll come, once the backdoor came in the traditional counties took off!

Breaking into the top tiers needs to be achieved through promotion. You've got to earn it, getting hammered every week will only bring both standards down, the likes of Kerry playing Clare will result in  Kerry throwing out their b team or not getting up for the match, Clare go behind early doors then then it's a collapse, but like Mayo v Tipp, embarrassing.

Whereas when you've beat the teams around you in tight hard fought games and win the final you're above the bottom tier, physically and mentally ready to target the bottom teams in the top group, yes the beatings may come from the top 4/5 but setting your stall out to target the lesser teams will give confidence.
The Sunday Game sometimes shows brief highlights of the lower tier hurling competitions, but it's tokenism, and that's all it will ever be, these second and third tier competitions are of no real interest to television, the viewing public are not interested

Which is a warning as to why they should be avoided in football

As soon as you break into the top tier, you're likely back down straight away because you are not used to the speed of the game at the higher level

This is a pattern in hurling and it's now a pattern for teams who get promoted from Division 2 in football - they go straight back down

It's over 11 years since Antrim beat Dublin

Laois improved because they had Eddie Brennan, who is a good coach and a massive name, who knows what it takes at the highest level, with the best team in history - he is a legend of the game who knows what he's doing - that's why he had total buy in from his players

Also Laois have advantages that Antrim don't have, like geographical proximity to strong hurling counties, meaning a much easier cross-pollination of ideas and people

But Carlow have that too and it's not enough

And but for relegation being abandoned in Leinster this year, Laois would still be back in the Tier 2 competition next year - whoever wins it this year will likely face instant relegation back next year - it's very hard to improve in the long term like that, because it's nearly always one step forward, two steps back - there's no continuity

Laois might get some continuity next year through staying in the Leinster round robin, but now Brennan is gone, which will likely knock them back significantly

Brennan just added to the massive work put in by Cheddar, you'd be foolish to think otherwise.

Beating Dublin 11 years ago .. around the time Dublin football took off!

You can't improve unless the grassroots is in place, sustaining top tier is about improving your underage and schools, pissing against the wind if you think otherwise. Dublin hurling wise did that, they competed and playing the bigger teams is easier at senior level.

I think and it's my opinion that I've seen enough of second tier championship to see benefits... I didn't see any benefits at the weekend of lower teams playing the likes of Mayo or Dublin

Until we Laois Carlow Westmeath and Kerry break into that we won't stay and just be a yo-yo team.
Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois

I stated specifically that competition structures are not a stand alone fix - they will not fix things by themselves - but they are a part of the solution

The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:55:44 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 09:27:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.
The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:55:44 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 09:27:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.
The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

Agreed and a cup competition as the All Ireland championship is should be straight knock in the All Ireland series. A group stage for the last 8 was a daft format to have.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 10:30:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:28:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:56:45 PM
Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.
If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence


I'll disagree with the school analogy. If a child is put in the correct level for his education he'll flourish. In a grade above he'll struggle to meet the high standards.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lar Naparka on December 07, 2020, 10:36:55 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 10:02:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:55:44 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 07, 2020, 09:27:34 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 07, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
So I'm wondering if opinions have changed on this topic in the last year.  We had the two big upsets in the provincial finals followed by two absolute hammerings for those teams.  The more I think about this, the more I am on the side of a tier two competition, with continued participation in the provincial championship.

Tipperary, Cavan provincial title success will be talked about for many years to come. If either was to play in this second tier competition and won it,   it would be quickly forgotten about.
The 2001-2017 football championship format was under rated

It struck as good a balance between tradition and modernity as you could have got

The Super 8 format is a dog's dinner and far too skewed towards the strong counties

Had the Super 8 format been brought in in 1978, it would have been Kerry, Dublin, Offaly and Cork in the last four every year

Meath might never have made the breakthrough in 1986 as these counties consolidated

Had it been brought in in 1988, it would have been Meath, Cork, Dublin and Kerry in the semis

The Ulster teams might never have broken through from 1991

Competition structures do make a difference

Agreed and a cup competition as the All Ireland championship is should be straight knock in the All Ireland series. A group stage for the last 8 was a daft format to have.
Agree with that and with what sid has said also.
The Super 8 is indeed a dog's dinner but it was introduced for one reason only and it never was intended to give a wider spread of counties an enhanced chance of winning Sam or anything approaching this.
It was hoisted on the public as a desperate attempt to halt the slide in gate  receipts as attendances have been plummeting in recent years
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on December 07, 2020, 10:44:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:42:43 PM

Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois


Laois have had a decent underage coaching and development system in place for a number of years and produced talented minor and U21 hurling teams even though they didn't achieve provincial honours. Eddie Brennan stepped in and brought them forward in a similar way that Micko had done with a talented group of footballers in 2003.

Laois hurling people, and more importantly Laois hurlers, are quite happy that Seamus "Cheddar" Plunkett had stepped back in as manager.
He has always had the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and would not take on the job if he did not believe he could build on the progress made.
The makeup of his backroom team has not yet been announced.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Eire90 on December 07, 2020, 11:03:28 PM
yeah the super 8s is not good there no need for basically a league at that stage you already have a league i think they wanted to copy the original champions league went into a super 8 at the last 8.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 11:06:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 07, 2020, 10:30:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:28:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 07, 2020, 08:56:45 PM
Are Dublin not way better than they were in 2006? Also to be honest the game is vastly different from 13/14 years ago. The preparation is on a different level so you would expect skill levels to be better.

To me Westmeath etc are way better than they were. Your barometer is competitiveness. I really don't think Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim etc have been competitive for a long time. Offaly too. I mean competitive against the "big boys". I watched these teams a lot over the years and in most cases they have been poor. The current Westmeath team is not poor, the Kerry team isn't poor, Carlow 10-15 years ago imo these teams were poor.

Your point about playing a higher level is fair enough but if teams are getting hammered, and they are, they are learning nothing. That was what was happening in the hurling. That is what happens a lot in the football now. Football doesn't lend itself to as big hammerings scoreboard wise as hurling but the chances of shocks really remains the same.

I don't disagree with some of your points but when the gap is too big you learn nothing. If the sport is in a place where are too many gaps that are too big then something like splitting championship needs seriously looked at.
If Dublin have improved a lot since 2006, and they have, and most other strong counties have improved to a good degree as well - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare, Limerick and Waterford have at any rate, that makes any improvement in Westmeath moot

Only Cork and Kilkenny have not improved, in Kilkenny's case it would have been pretty much impossible to improve from that 2006-2009 team

Offaly have obviously disimproved hugely but even by 2006 they were already trailing off

If Westmeath are improving by a small amount, but the strong counties are improving by a bigger amount, the gap is wider

Laois and Westmeath and Antrim need to be improving by a bigger amount than the strong counties are improving by to close the gap

And it's almost impossible to do that in a lower tier - you already have a lower standard of club hurling than the strong counties, and when you play inter-county, it's at a lower level too - it's like school - if a child gets put into a lower stream, they fall behind and keep falling behind

That's the future that awaits football with a tiered championship structure, it's already a big problem with the league

A 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each divided into 2, is a fair compromise between tiers and competitiveness

Take Meath or Kildare

If they were in a Division 1A as opposed to a full Division 1, they would be exposed to some of the very top teams, and OK, they'd probably lose, but they'd probably also be able to get some confidence boosting wins, finish in mid-table, and stay in the same division for next year, when they would be able to get some continuity, go again, and build on the previous year, all the while building up experience and getting to used to a higher pace of game

Meath may have experienced a higher pace of game lately, but they've lost 10 of their last 13 games, with only two wins, so in terms of confidence, that's a serious setback - it's also nice to win the odd time

Kildare got 0 points in NFL Division 1 in 2018 and I think that knocked them back a good bit in terms of confidence


I'll disagree with the school analogy. If a child is put in the correct level for his education he'll flourish. In a grade above he'll struggle to meet the high standards.
Well they might flourish on their own level but the kids in front of them will likely pull away from their level

A bit like Westmeath

And the "exam" is conducted according to what the kids at the higher level have been studying
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 11:25:36 PM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on December 07, 2020, 10:44:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:42:43 PM

Cheddar is a grand "hurling man" but he is not a top tier inter-county coach by any stretch of the imagination, he's a clear downgrade on Brennan, and that will likely hurt Laois


Laois have had a decent underage coaching and development system in place for a number of years and produced talented minor and U21 hurling teams even though they didn't achieve provincial honours. Eddie Brennan stepped in and brought them forward in a similar way that Micko had done with a talented group of footballers in 2003.

Laois hurling people, and more importantly Laois hurlers, are quite happy that Seamus "Cheddar" Plunkett had stepped back in as manager.
He has always had the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and would not take on the job if he did not believe he could build on the progress made.
The makeup of his backroom team has not yet been announced.
Cheddar clearly has the best interests of Laois hurling at heart and he did a nice job with them in his first spell in charge but I don't think he's at Brennan's level and when a manager comes in who is not as good as the previous one, even if they're only a small bit below the previous level, any sense of inferiority becomes amplified to be bigger than it actually is

Like, when Mick O'Dwyer left Laois they got Liam Kearns who is a decent enough manager in his own right, but he wasn't O'Dwyer and couldn't do what O'Dwyer did, and it fell away bit by bit

Mickey Moran is a fine coach but he was always going to fail with Derry when he took over after Eamon Coleman was sacked, because the players wanted Coleman and were very angry he was sacked

Any amount of other examples too

Cork after Conor Counihan's departure a notable recent one, Rory Gallagher following on from Jim McGuinness another one

This happens across all sport - Carlo Ancelotti bombed at Bayern Munich because he was coming in after Guardiola who challenged players hugely - Ancelotti is a very good manager, but much more low key
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on December 07, 2020, 11:42:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:42:43 PM
The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved

They really haven't.

This is peak sid stuff here. A load of contextless examples of stuff thrown together in an attempt to substantiate some categorical assertion. Nothing has been proven other than the fact that fluff plus waffle equals a dubious conclusion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 12:11:25 AM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on December 07, 2020, 11:42:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 07, 2020, 09:42:43 PM
The benefits of a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2 in football in terms of across the board competitiveness, and the downsides of a Divisions 1 to 4 format in terms of across the board competitiveness have already been proved

They really haven't.

This is peak sid stuff here. A load of contextless examples of stuff thrown together in an attempt to substantiate some categorical assertion. Nothing has been proven other than the fact that fluff plus waffle equals a dubious conclusion.
Sligo played Division 1 football from 1999/2000 on, they reached a league semi-final in 2001 - they beat Kildare in the championship that year and then followed it up the next year by beating Tyrone - and should have beaten Armagh

Fermanagh played Division 1 football from 1999/2000 to 2004 inclusive, reaching a league semi-final in 2003 - they reached the All-ireland quarter-finals in 2003 and were a kick of a ball away from the All-Ireland final in 2004

Laois topped 1B in 2003 and reached the League final, they followed it up by winning Leinster and being regular quarter-finalists

Westmeath were a Division 1 team when they won Leinster in 2004 - that spring they had played Dublin, Tyrone, Cork, Kerry and Mayo

Wexford reached a League final in 2005 and had years of solid Division 1 experience before they reached an All-Ireland semi-final in 2008

It is undeniable that Division 1 football helped all these counties hugely

The Divisions 1-4 format came in in 2008

For most of the 2010s, the latter stages of the championship has been a closed shop - Dublin, Kerry and Mayo have all been there pretty much every year, along with one of Donegal or Tyrone, Monaghan have been knocking around the quarter-finals a lot, in the early part of decade Cork were around

These counties all spent all or almost all their time in an eight team Division 1 with a much higher standard of football than any other division - the circle kept reinforcing itself - high standards drove higher standards, and if you fell into Division 2 for a long stretch, you couldn't compete come championship time

Tipperary in 2016 were very much the exception which proved the rule - and they got a lucky draw



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ed Ricketts on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 AM
And again. A load of stuff with no context bunged together to create the illusion that there's a point being made.

For instance, the relative success of Laois in the 2000s had much more to do with the maturation of their double AI winning minor teams from the 1990s than with whatever league structure was in place around the time.

There's no real evidence of the causation you're attempting to claim. Just some Angelo style bunk. And it's clear this is going in the direction of some weird defence of Dublin unity. If us dumb culchies would only push for different structures everything would be great and vibrant and exciting again. And then Dublin wouldn't win everything always and we wouldn't have to split them up to get some semblance of competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 07:23:48 AM
Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years ;D

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on December 08, 2020, 11:40:48 AM
If the Tailteann Cup had been played this year it would have involved
Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh
Sligo, Leitrim, London*
Limerick Waterford
Wicklow, Wexford, Carlow, Offaly, Longford and Louth.

*If Covid hadnt happened. NY want to play in it too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on December 08, 2020, 12:56:49 AM
And again. A load of stuff with no context bunged together to create the illusion that there's a point being made.

For instance, the relative success of Laois in the 2000s had much more to do with the maturation of their double AI winning minor teams from the 1990s than with whatever league structure was in place around the time.

There's no real evidence of the causation you're attempting to claim. Just some Angelo style bunk. And it's clear this is going in the direction of some weird defence of Dublin unity. If us dumb culchies would only push for different structures everything would be great and vibrant and exciting again. And then Dublin wouldn't win everything always and we wouldn't have to split them up to get some semblance of competition.
But you're not dealing with the point at all - you're just providing rhetoric - and you trail off into an entirely different point - you reveal your real agenda, which is to harm Dublin

I'm not saying that the 2000s league format by itself will make teams competitive - but it will allow teams to have a better chance to be competitive if they get their house in order

What you are asking for is impossible to provide - by the same definition of "proof" you're asking for, one cannot "prove" funding has had any benefits for Dublin GAA, one cannot prove anything - in your words, there is no "evidence" for that

The long and short of it is you just don't like the point, even though it makes perfect sense

The question is, why you object to the point?

Can I ask you, what actual benefits for the game are there from an 8 team Divisions 1-4 format compared to a 16 team Division 1?

Do you agree that a better standard of regular football gives more teams more of a chance to improve?

And that a worse standard of football gives them less chance to improve?

If not, why?




Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 07:23:48 AM
Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years ;D

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.
The Monday TG4 highlights is a good programme but it's very niche, the floating public don't watch it, and it being in Irish doesn't help

So if you want publicity for lower tier competitions, you're going to get much there

Limerick is another example of a team who benefitted from the 2000s league structure - they gained promotion in 2003 and went on to top Division 1B in 2004, only losing to Kerry in by two points in the semi-final

Monaghan's modern rise started with a Division 2 title in 2005

I don't understand how people can say the Super 8s is elitist and reinforces the advantages of Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal etc. - it clearly does - but then not see that an eight team NFL Division 1 does the same

In the last decade, six teams have managed to get into Division 1 and stay there for all or most of the time - Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan -  amazingly enough these teams, with the benefit of constant elite Division 1 football, have been the teams constantly reaching the business end of the championship

Teams can reach an eight team Division 1 for a year or two - Down, Roscommon, Cavan, Kildare, Meath have all done so in recent years, but they're generally straight back down, losing most of their matches by big margins - and that knocks them back

The point is, how many Laoises and Limericks and Westmeaths and Wexfords and Sligo and Fermanaghs of the 2000s didn't happen in the 2010s because the league structures helped to cut them off at the root

From 2000-2009, 17 teams reached an All-Ireland semi-final or won a provincial championship

From 2010-2019, that fell to 11

That's not a Dublin problem - that's an across the board competitiveness problem

GAA historian Paul Rouse makes the exact same point I do about this

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 02:43:56 PM
My point on TG4 wasn't about publicity - my point on TG4 was that you should watch it to see that the Joe McDonagh has improved teams. (I don't know what wil happen on sunday so that may came back to haunt me lol). You were making a point about not seeing improvement but hadn't seen the teams.

On that same note I can tell you that if you're from a lesser county then in the championship you will get token coverage on a show like the sunday game so I don't buy the publicity thing. (However to be fair BBC NI will show ulster but RTE show minimal of "lesser" teams).

Fermanagh have happened since 2010s. The year they clapped the big FF who's name escapes me off at croke park the dubs hammered them but they were very good otherwise. The dubs hammer everyone but that's a different argument.

I don't fully buy the argument about the teams going into division one either. If division one , allbeit for one year, would improve them then they would have improved more than teams who for example came from division three so would beat them and go up again.

Also logistically I actually don't understand what you want. Mix up all the divisions so everyone plays everyone?

how many John Galvins have limerick had since the 2000s? How many Matty Fordes have wexford had since the 2000s? In addition limerick were a whisker away from the munster final this year. The ridiculous point from sweeney in normal time(in a positive way) and the ridiculous miss from the limerick mark(in a negative way) in extra time were what stopped them. Fermanagh don't have as good a team - simple as that. I don't know what is happening sligo but they should be way better. When was the last time Laois were competing regularly at all ireland stage in underage? It was pre 2000s so feeding into 2000s. The standard of player they have produced, bar Kingston, hasn't been the same.

Tbh you could counter what I say all day and I could counter what you say all day long but ultimately I don't agree with what you're saying. I also think we come from a different perspective in terms of county status and that has a bearing on viewpoint.

(On your super 8s point I don't know about the elite thing but I just think they are a load of crap. Also teams like Roscommon and Monaghan *should* have improved from them by your rationale but they have not. I just think the super 8s are a load of crap - they take too much time away from club football and generally teams a few teams will get into them who are nowhere near top 8 then get beat first 2 games and the last is a dead duck). I would like to see more knockout games and if this year has taught us anything it's that knockout is better.)

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 03:12:13 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 02:43:56 PM
My point on TG4 wasn't about publicity - my point on TG4 was that you should watch it to see that the Joe McDonagh has improved teams. (I don't know what wil happen on sunday so that may came back to haunt me lol). You were making a point about not seeing improvement but hadn't seen the teams.

On that same note I can tell you that if you're from a lesser county then in the championship you will get token coverage on a show like the sunday game so I don't buy the publicity thing. (However to be fair BBC NI will show ulster but RTE show minimal of "lesser" teams).

Fermanagh have happened since 2010s. The year they clapped the big FF who's name escapes me off at croke park the dubs hammered them but they were very good otherwise. The dubs hammer everyone but that's a different argument.

I don't fully buy the argument about the teams going into division one either. If division one , allbeit for one year, would improve them then they would have improved more than teams who for example came from division three so would beat them and go up again.

Also logistically I actually don't understand what you want. Mix up all the divisions so everyone plays everyone?

how many John Galvins have limerick had since the 2000s? How many Matty Fordes have wexford had since the 2000s? In addition limerick were a whisker away from the munster final this year. The ridiculous point from sweeney in normal time(in a positive way) and the ridiculous miss from the limerick mark(in a negative way) in extra time were what stopped them. Fermanagh don't have as good a team - simple as that. I don't know what is happening sligo but they should be way better. When was the last time Laois were competing regularly at all ireland stage in underage? It was pre 2000s so feeding into 2000s. The standard of player they have produced, bar Kingston, hasn't been the same.

Tbh you could counter what I say all day and I could counter what you say all day long but ultimately I don't agree with what you're saying. I also think we come from a different perspective in terms of county status and that has a bearing on viewpoint.

(On your super 8s point I don't know about the elite thing but I just think they are a load of crap. Also teams like Roscommon and Monaghan *should* have improved from them by your rationale but they have not. I just think the super 8s are a load of crap - they take too much time away from club football and generally teams a few teams will get into them who are nowhere near top 8 then get beat first 2 games and the last is a dead duck). I would like to see more knockout games and if this year has taught us anything it's that knockout is better.)

But 17 teams have reached All-Ireland semi-finals or won provincial titles in the 2000s compared to 11 in the 2010s

Why has that happened?

Fermanagh did alright in the 2015-18 period but in reality they were not nearly as competitive as the 2000s team who competed seriously at this business end of the championship - an All-Ireland semi-final replay

Monaghan improved because i) they got their underage set up in order ii) they built through the second half of the 2000s under Banty iii) they then got a serious manager in Malachy O'Rourke iv) they got into Division 1 and stayed there - constant Division 1 football improved them - they reached the limit of their ability

Roscommon had three years out of four in Division 1 in 2016, 17 and 19, they're back there again next year - those seasons definitely helped them as regards winning Connacht, Cavan were probably helped this year by their two seasons in Division 1 even if they were relegated both times

But the teams that are most helped by an eight team Division 1 are Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal - they have a constant diet of top level football each spring, and it shows

Mattie Forde was a prodigious talent but he was allowed develop in a split 16 team Division 1, didn't he score four goals against Galway in Tuam once

Niall McNamee was also a prodigious talent, but bar a short spell at the start of his career when Offaly were in the same split 16 team Division 1 and reached a Leinster final off the back of that, they've been languishing in a vicious circle of Division 3 and 4 football - unsurprisingly they've done nothing in the championship since then

What I want is the 1999-2007 league format
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 03:31:13 PM
17 v 11 is not THAT big a disparity. Super 8s are going to narrow down the potential for "lesser" teams to make semi finals. Also Dublin dominance. How many leinster semi finalists this decade vs last?

Fermanagh haven't had as good players this decade as they had last decade. Marty McGrath, Barry Owens, Ryan McCloskey, Brewsters. Those players have not been there this decade.

Monaghan improved because they had better players and a better manager. That happened due to underage becoming better too yes.

Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal... Who would be the strongest in their provinces underage wise over the period preceding now? I would have thought those would be the top 5? Clearly Kerry and Dublin. Tyrone have chipped away at underage and Donegal had a few minors in a row. The only challenger to those teams underage wise is Galway who should really be so much better than they are between corofin and underage success.

Cavan are a bit of an anomaly for me. They clearly have players of pedigree based on underage record but it's not that often they have done it. I don't know that you can say they have improved in division 1 if I'm honest despite this year and ironically it was their division 2 they make a breakthrough. I honestly don't see Roscommon as an improved team either. They're not a bad team and have some fine footballers before anyone jumps on that but they haven't got much better or worse this last few years.

Tbh I can't find the list of the 17 to compare them with the 11 but if you link me them I would happily go through them.

You have a conclusion of clearly the league the way it works etc etc doesn't work and you are trying to use stats to put an argument in their favour. It is lies, damn lies and statistics because I can pretty much do it the other way too lol. I really do not believe for one second that a league structure has anything to do with the variance in all ireland semi finals. Nothing you have put in any post has convinced me of that.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 08, 2020, 03:39:49 PM
Leagues are for playing in and championships are for winning.....

The mindset of the player is Championship, always has been and until the league becomes the bases of where you sit in the championship, first tier or second then that will be the approach of certain counties..

You can have as many formats as you like in the league, unless its linked to championship it won't improve a thing..

Teams will improve over the winter months with when they see that a very good league campaign will result in promotion to the Sam Maguire..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 03:59:27 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 03:31:13 PM
17 v 11 is not THAT big a disparity. Super 8s are going to narrow down the potential for "lesser" teams to make semi finals. Also Dublin dominance. How many leinster semi finalists this decade vs last?

Fermanagh haven't had as good players this decade as they had last decade. Marty McGrath, Barry Owens, Ryan McCloskey, Brewsters. Those players have not been there this decade.

Monaghan improved because they had better players and a better manager. That happened due to underage becoming better too yes.

Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal... Who would be the strongest in their provinces underage wise over the period preceding now? I would have thought those would be the top 5? Clearly Kerry and Dublin. Tyrone have chipped away at underage and Donegal had a few minors in a row. The only challenger to those teams underage wise is Galway who should really be so much better than they are between corofin and underage success.

Cavan are a bit of an anomaly for me. They clearly have players of pedigree based on underage record but it's not that often they have done it. I don't know that you can say they have improved in division 1 if I'm honest despite this year and ironically it was their division 2 they make a breakthrough. I honestly don't see Roscommon as an improved team either. They're not a bad team and have some fine footballers before anyone jumps on that but they haven't got much better or worse this last few years.

Tbh I can't find the list of the 17 to compare them with the 11 but if you link me them I would happily go through them.

You have a conclusion of clearly the league the way it works etc etc doesn't work and you are trying to use stats to put an argument in their favour. It is lies, damn lies and statistics because I can pretty much do it the other way too lol. I really do not believe for one second that a league structure has anything to do with the variance in all ireland semi finals. Nothing you have put in any post has convinced me of that.

It's a simple principle and is backed up by both statistics and the bleedin' obvious - the more you play at a higher level, the more you have the chance to improve, it's a virtuous circle

That's the difference between the 1999-2007 league format and the 2008- one

In the current format, you're either part of the small group of elite counties or you're left in the dust - that wasn't the case with the previous format





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 04:12:09 PM
It only holds if you are close to that level. If you are not it is just demoralising. The gap gets too much and then you get the scenario where players are not willing to put the commitment in. A division 4 team playing dublin achieves nothing. Similarly tyrone, Mayo, Donegal.

Basically I agree it's a simple principle but I don't agree it is a principle that holds with the current state of the GAA in either football or hurling.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 04:12:09 PM
It only holds if you are close to that level. If you are not it is just demoralising. The gap gets too much and then you get the scenario where players are not willing to put the commitment in. A division 4 team playing dublin achieves nothing. Similarly tyrone, Mayo, Donegal.

Basically I agree it's a simple principle but I don't agree it is a principle that holds with the current state of the GAA in either football or hurling.
The current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

That massive gap wasn't really there under the previous system

Teams could compete, they generally wouldn't be beaten out the gate, they had a realistic shot of improving by getting a good regular standard of football

The more the system is tiered, the more the ladder is pulled up after the Division 1 regulars like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal

The gaps between Division 1 regulars and the Division 2 regulars is bigger than it ever was

The gaps between the Division 2 regulars and the Division 4 regulars is bigger than it ever was

Social mobility has declined
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 04:41:40 PM
QuoteThe current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 04:48:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 04:41:40 PM
QuoteThe current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.
And why is that?

Competition structures are at least part of the answer

A widespread argument currently running is that Leinster teams are giving up because they're trapped in the Leinster championship

So the acceptance that competition structures do make a difference is actually pretty uncontroversial

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Eire90 on December 08, 2020, 04:52:23 PM
is the rise of social media to blame are people these days just content with being on facebook
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 05:38:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 04:48:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 04:41:40 PM
QuoteThe current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.
And why is that?

Competition structures are at least part of the answer

A widespread argument currently running is that Leinster teams are giving up because they're trapped in the Leinster championship

So the acceptance that competition structures do make a difference is actually pretty uncontroversial

Yeah but to counter that the Leinster structures have not changed. It's not a variable.

I'm not trolling you. I don't believe mixing everyone up helps lesser teams. I just don't. It may not be the case for every county granted but I believe it is for mine and would be for others. Maybe a team like Laois or Sligo football wise may, may, be different

Why is that could be a phd. It's not a simple question. Strength and conditioning is the biggest reason imo. You would rarely get "lesser teams" buying into these regimes. That has nothing to do with league structure.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 09:39:13 PM
Teams have always sought to get a fitness edge

Kerry would go on collective training camps back in the real old days

Heffo got Dublin fitter than anybody else, O'Dwyer followed

Then Donegal and Derry beat Dublin for fitness in '92 and '93

Armagh and Tyrone brought things up a notch, then Donegal under McGuinness did too

So current day S and C is just a continuation of a trend which has existed for as long as the game has existed

The league structures changed in 2008, Dublin have been in an eight team elite Division 1 since 2009

The stays of other Leinster teams in that eight team Division 1 have all been fleeting - perhaps if they had been at that elite level, their S and C would be at a higher level

S and C is all about what the player puts in, yes a good coach can advise you well but they can't make you look like Con O'Callaghan does, the player has to do the work themselves to achieve that







Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 08, 2020, 09:59:35 PM
So getting dicked every weekend won't encourage a player to work harder, it's actually embarrassing and then you watch it later which Spillane and O'Rourke laughing their heads off..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Seaney on December 08, 2020, 10:08:40 PM
You could allude to them having a disability you have form.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 08, 2020, 09:59:35 PM
So getting dicked every weekend won't encourage a player to work harder, it's actually embarrassing and then you watch it later which Spillane and O'Rourke laughing their heads off..
That's all the more reason to revamp the league

Kildare and Meath got tanked when they were promoted to Division 1 and went straight back down

In a split Division 1 they'd probably have finished mid-table and could build for the following year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on December 08, 2020, 11:27:30 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2020, 07:23:48 AM
Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years ;D

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.
The Monday TG4 highlights is a good programme but it's very niche, the floating public don't watch it, and it being in Irish doesn't help

So if you want publicity for lower tier competitions, you're going to get much there

Limerick is another example of a team who benefitted from the 2000s league structure - they gained promotion in 2003 and went on to top Division 1B in 2004, only losing to Kerry in by two points in the semi-final

Monaghan's modern rise started with a Division 2 title in 2005

I don't understand how people can say the Super 8s is elitist and reinforces the advantages of Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal etc. - it clearly does - but then not see that an eight team NFL Division 1 does the same

In the last decade, six teams have managed to get into Division 1 and stay there for all or most of the time - Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan -  amazingly enough these teams, with the benefit of constant elite Division 1 football, have been the teams constantly reaching the business end of the championship

Teams can reach an eight team Division 1 for a year or two - Down, Roscommon, Cavan, Kildare, Meath have all done so in recent years, but they're generally straight back down, losing most of their matches by big margins - and that knocks them back

The point is, how many Laoises and Limericks and Westmeaths and Wexfords and Sligo and Fermanaghs of the 2000s didn't happen in the 2010s because the league structures helped to cut them off at the root

From 2000-2009, 17 teams reached an All-Ireland semi-final or won a provincial championship

From 2010-2019, that fell to 11

That's not a Dublin problem - that's an across the board competitiveness problem

GAA historian Paul Rouse makes the exact same point I do about this
Have to agree with pretty much all of what sid has said here and in the last few pages.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 09, 2020, 08:34:34 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 08, 2020, 09:39:13 PM
Teams have always sought to get a fitness edge

Kerry would go on collective training camps back in the real old days

Heffo got Dublin fitter than anybody else, O'Dwyer followed

Then Donegal and Derry beat Dublin for fitness in '92 and '93

Armagh and Tyrone brought things up a notch, then Donegal under McGuinness did too

So current day S and C is just a continuation of a trend which has existed for as long as the game has existed

The league structures changed in 2008, Dublin have been in an eight team elite Division 1 since 2009

The stays of other Leinster teams in that eight team Division 1 have all been fleeting - perhaps if they had been at that elite level, their S and C would be at a higher level

S and C is all about what the player puts in, yes a good coach can advise you well but they can't make you look like Con O'Callaghan does, the player has to do the work themselves to achieve that

S and C is far from only about what a player puts in. A major factor in it is the expertise you have working with you.  You are doing  significant disservice to what good S&C can add here. The better advice you get then the better a program you get and the smarter you will work. Also while you may not believe it there will be many players not from Dublin who work equally as hard as Dublin players and the same could be applied from many "non traditional counties" to "traditional counties". That is not me doubting how hard the Dubs work - that is me saying that they are far from alone in working hard.

You are right that teams will always seek advantages in fitness but gone are the days where all that entails is slogging the guts out of yourself on a running track or doing press ups or the like. There is significant science behind it. That science requires expertise and that expertise costs money. The "weaker" teams will be less prepared to spend this money.So tbh money is a massive factor.

(In addition btw that strength and conditioning leads to being able to play tactics right. Teams in the lower tiers try to play systems like Dublins, Donegals etc and they fail miserably. If you look at the evolution of Donegal under McGuinness they were like they were in 2011 because they at that stage weren't fit enough to play like they did 2012. People seem to forget because of that horrendous 2011 game against Dublin but they played fast counter attacking football in 2012 which was very good at times to watch. They could play defensively and have that fitness to break at speed. In 2011 it's like the lower divisions are - they hadn't the fitness to break the way they were doing so they were just turgidly defensive. That is what the lower divisions look like now)

I would concede that maybe a 1a and 1b from 1 and 2 and a 2a and 2b from divisions 3 and 4 may be something but merging 1 to 4 would be a waste of time. There isn't much between top of division 2 and top of division 3 at the minute. Division 2 is a lottery as to who gets promoted and relegated. To survive the way the leagues are at the minute I think that the team top of division 2 would need to be way better than the rest. I do think the likes of Armagh next year are in for a few lessons. I also think Roscommon knew this the other year so peaked for the league and then were a busted flush come championship then when they did it the other way round and peaked for championship they got relegated in the league. There is just a gap in standard. I don't think personally that is because of the league structures. You do - fair enough but there have been many variables in whatever number of years you think the spread of standard has dropped and I think you're picking one when you can be as sure/unsure of one as another.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 10, 2020, 04:15:51 PM
Yeah I would agree with that. Also a large part of fitness at that level is the ability to recover. Easier jobs equal more ability to recover. That may not sound like much but recovery is hugely important in s&c as you can train a lot harder due to it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 10:43:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 11:34:18 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 10:43:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?

I'd asked the same question of Cork Galway and Belfast
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on December 11, 2020, 01:22:58 AM
Not only a 2nd tier, but a third tier also; works at club level and in ladies' football. Finals to be played at Croke Pk on same day or w/e as senior final
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 11, 2020, 07:13:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 11:34:18 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 10:43:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 10, 2020, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 10, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
The major issue with S&C is the amount of time you can afford to put in.

For players with a demanding job, who work a significant amount of time and distance away from their own county and are deprived of as much collective and individual attention that players who don't have these demands - it is hugely significants.

No real need for guessing which county is primed to be able to commit the most amount of time S&C work.

The county team with the most teachers and students would have the best chance

The county team with the least actual jobs and physically located in their own counties will. How many current Dublin panelists work outside Dublin?

I'd asked the same question of Cork Galway and Belfast

That kind of thing is very far from a silver bullet. It just helps.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 11, 2020, 07:57:02 AM
Well Angelo thinks differently..

His arguments have no substance on this

It was never brought up before 2011, because Dublin players obviously worked away from Dublin in those days ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 11, 2020, 08:19:03 AM
Yeah to be honest that kind of thing creates a much deeper problem related to big cities- e.g. for country clubs with players living in the bigger cities. Travelling to training is time consuming and a pain in the arse at times. I know from about 10 years of experience of it lol.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 11, 2020, 08:54:23 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2020, 08:19:03 AM
Yeah to be honest that kind of thing creates a much deeper problem related to big cities- e.g. for country clubs with players living in the bigger cities. Travelling to training is time consuming and a pain in the arse at times. I know from about 10 years of experience of it lol.

Complete pain in the hole, but the likes of Antrim, its an hour at its longest journey Belfast to Ballycastle or Cushendall... That's a choice for players, you can't blame the City clubs for being in the city, that's just the way it is and has been for over a 100 years.. Derry must be the exception in all of this.

What Dublin club would travel the longest, distance wise to Dublin? And in all my time driving through Dublin, I rather take 40 minutes up the country than travel through that place
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on December 11, 2020, 08:57:21 AM
Yeah some Dublin clubs are likely a further drive timewise from the city than bottom to top of antrim.

(FYI I don't blame the city clubs however don't agree it's a choice. Your club is part of you so you don't ditch it(without good reason) just because there's a long drive...)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 11, 2020, 09:37:09 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2020, 08:57:21 AM
Yeah some Dublin clubs are likely a further drive timewise from the city than bottom to top of antrim.

(FYI I don't blame the city clubs however don't agree it's a choice. Your club is part of you so you don't ditch it(without good reason) just because there's a long drive...)

Exactly, I'd never move from my club, even though I'm 20 minutes from it  ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on December 11, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Looking more like a County first in 2021

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1211/1183877-july-football-final-due-as-county-first-season-backed/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on December 11, 2020, 05:28:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 11, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Looking more like a County first in 2021

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1211/1183877-july-football-final-due-as-county-first-season-backed/

My only observation on this is about Covid. The modest crowds at club games are more likely to be allowed before the bigger crowds at county games and at lest for 2021 this might be an issue.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2020, 05:35:18 PM
I would yeah

Dubs in tier 1
Everyone else in tier 2
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on December 14, 2020, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 11, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Looking more like a County first in 2021

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1211/1183877-july-football-final-due-as-county-first-season-backed/

I like the idea, at least club players know when the season will start and end rather than being held to ransom by provincials, back doors etc..  I hope it goes through.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on December 14, 2020, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on December 14, 2020, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 11, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Looking more like a County first in 2021

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1211/1183877-july-football-final-due-as-county-first-season-backed/

I like the idea, at least club players know when the season will start and end rather than being held to ransom by provincials, back doors etc..  I hope it goes through.
I'd be happy to see how it goes, but IMO, it's fixing something that's not broken in many counties
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on December 14, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
Only question for 2021 is will Cub or County be played first.
I think it's a given that the "split season" will be adopted for 22 onwards.
It's flavour of the month after the successful Club championships played over the Summer and hard to see a case against it.
It's normalising what was in effect the norm in most Counties anyway.
Only difference is County lads won't be playing Club league games now except the last 2 or 3 if their County is finished for the year.
Will the weaker County teams  be able to improve if their playing season consists of 4 months?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: reillycavan on December 14, 2020, 06:10:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 14, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
Only question for 2021 is will Cub or County be played first.
I think it's a given that the "split season" will be adopted for 22 onwards.
It's flavour of the month after the successful Club championships played over the Summer and hard to see a case against it.
It's normalising what was in effect the norm in most Counties anyway.
Only difference is County lads won't be playing Club league games now except the last 2 or 3 if their County is finished for the year.
Will the weaker County teams  be able to improve if their playing season consists of 4 months?
[/quote
Let club play first instead waiting 8 months for championship game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2021, 09:39:52 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/sean-moran-gaa-has-a-big-decision-to-make-on-championship-reform-1.4607095

Sean Moran: GAA has a big decision to make on championship reform
Choice will essentially be – rejig the provinces or bring the league into the summer



 
What does the GAA want to be? The question and its answer go to the heart of what happened on the first weekend of championship. Opening day was Saturday and a spate of beatings that emphasised the gulf between competing counties.

Five matches across three provinces and two championships culminated in a combined winning margin of 93 points – well over 18 per fixture.

It can be argued that this is a bit random and unrepresentative given that Sunday's fixtures were a lot more competitive, but it was hardly unprecedented for the GAA championship to start so underwhelmingly and can it simply be glossed over as one of those things that can happen?

Firstly, the GAA condition. Public interest ensures that the focus on Gaelic games is always on the big intercounty competitions. They are the activities that get most attention with sponsors' advertisements and broadcasters' promotion. Yet the core business of the association is as a community sporting organisation based in 2,000 or so clubs around the country and the world at large.

Of course a central part of that existence is the provision of competitive on-field activities, which impact on the public interest. By the nature of these things vast numbers of clubs have no realistic prospect of regular success even within the graded championships.

I remember former GAA president Aogán Ó Fearghail in a speech launching the five-year plan of Cuala, then All-Ireland hurling champions, that in his own club Drumgoon when they spoke of championship wins, they meant actual matches rather than titles.

Jarlath Burns, a presidential candidate and former Armagh captain, made the same sort of point when talking about what drives clubs in competitions which they have little chance of winning. He said that the motivation is to do something notable, be it simply beat a better fancied team, win a first round or whatever.

His own club Silverbridge has a modest history with high points being an intermediate championship, a first division title and sundry similar achievements. Down the road is Crossmaglen with their six All-Irelands and yet Silverbridge is as vital a part of their community with a stunning clubhouse despite not troubling the trophy engravers that often.

Liam Sheedy relishing the challenge of championship
Munster hurling: Kelly points the way as Clare get their campaign up and running
Clare revival continues apace but profligacy a worry for Brian Lohan
CLICK HERE: Irish Times guide to sport on TV this weekCLICK HERE: Irish Times guide to sport on TV this week
This is commonplace in amateur sport. A club's or a team's sense of itself is not exclusively tied to silverware.

This might be the case at intercounty level but for the fact that it is a world far more in tune with professional sport. Its most visible presence is in the coverage on national television and the major competitions and All-Ireland finals. It has become, like it or not, a 'product' for broadcasters rather than in the old days, simply a championship that allowed the cameras in for it handful of big days.

Widespread exposure
That meant that the casual followers got to see the most important matches, which were generally the most competitive and exciting – and not the likes of Sligo-Mayo and fixtures as likely to attract the interest of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports as a rapt TV audience.

By professional standards the GAA championship is not built for widespread exposure. The counties by size and resources are grossly divergent and nearly all know their fate in advance. Why do they persevere? Ask Drumgoon and Silverbridge.

Amateur sports were founded on knockout formats, as they didn't need the regular income stream of league-based competitions. Knockout appeals to the 'have a go' mentality even if the giantkillers have no notion of winning the competition and few expect to replicate the feat.

At present the GAA is trying to manoeuvre what is an amateur arrangement into professional packaging and from a certain stage it works very well, but it also contains the seeds of days like last Saturday.

There are two gripes with the proposed Tier 2 championship. One is that counties don't want to be involved, not just because of the status it signifies but because the dream of a big day dies with it. Secondly, the mechanism for tiering creates resentment because there isn't a clean division between top and bottom.

In the league just concluded, the Ulster and Munster champions were relegated to next year's Division Four by Wicklow and Longford respectively. The main reason for that, however, was the history-making identity of the 2020 provincial championships, which were an outlier compared to recent years.

In 2019, the previous season to have an All-Ireland qualifiers section, for instance, of the 67 matches played just five saw a county beat opponents from a higher division.

Hurling incorporates tiered championships but it has no history of open competition and so no counties with significant days in the past, wanting to stay involved.

Football does. Just two counties, Wicklow and Fermanagh, have yet to win a single senior provincial championship. For many it may all be as far in the past as wrist watches but that sense of themselves is there.

How do you force that sensibility into a conventional competition structure? There is universal acceptance of the league divisions and the concept of winning your way up the pecking order but championship is different.

The GAA has a big choice to make later this year with a view to reforming the championship: essentially, rejig the provinces or bring the league into the summer. It will have to decide what it wants its competitions to be.

In the meantime, the beatings will continue.

smoran@irishtimes.com
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Louther on June 30, 2021, 11:10:52 AM
Good article that.

GAA need to decide what it wants to be. For years it's been trying to be everything for everyone and not getting close, changing direction again and again and again. Not everyone can win but there should be victories for them in their own right.

No future in current football championship in any of its current guises, the only competition in any GAA code that tries to put everyone in same competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2021, 11:23:17 AM
Imagine going to a County Convention proposing to abolish the Senior, Inter and Junior grades and having 1 County Championship?
Ya'd  be laughed out if it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 30, 2021, 11:51:47 AM
Just two counties, Wicklow and Fermanagh, have yet to win a single senior provincial championship. For many it may all be as far in the past as wrist watches but that sense of themselves is there.

This is a key line. Like what right have Fermanagh to be in same competition as Dublin or Kerry? They've never done anything of any significance and along with Antrim are a regular laughing stock in Ulster.
Make the league the new Championship and use the provincials as a warm up campaign to blood youth. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 30, 2021, 01:00:38 PM
Fermanagh have produced some very good teams and players this century. If there were more than one tier then currently they should be in tier 2 but you are disrespecting them a bit there and unfairly so. McGrath and Owens would have made most Tyrone teams including the AI winning ones. They got to a replay in an AI semi which they arguably could have won and have been to a few provincial finals.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 30, 2021, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on June 30, 2021, 01:00:38 PM
Fermanagh have produced some very good teams and players this century. If there were more than one tier then currently they should be in tier 2 but you are disrespecting them a bit there and unfairly so. McGrath and Owens would have made most Tyrone teams including the AI winning ones. They got to a replay in an AI semi which they arguably could have won and have been to a few provincial finals.

Ack away and shite, Barry Owens or Marty McGrath would get in any Tyrone team blah blah blah. Bottom line is this. They have never won an USFC title since the competition started. They regularly get humped in the first round. They are a small county with something like 16 or 17 clubs. It's like saying Barnet should be in the Champions League. They are not good enough, they never have been good enough and they never will be good enough. Put them into a competition that they can possibly win and stop these God awful hammering matches.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on June 30, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Tiers work well in club football and ladies county football; just watch the celebrations when an intermediate or junior championship is won. But these competitions would need support, resources and coverage e.g the 2nd tier final should be the opener on All-Ireland day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2021, 03:35:46 PM
How many tickets would the 2 Competing Counties get.?
If Leitrim, Carlow etc get to an All Ireland Final giving them 1,000 tickets each would be an insult.
Play the 3 Finals Minor, U20 and Tier 2 on the Saturday of AI weekend.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Teams moan and complain about the coverage of 2nd tier competitions yet they regularly fail to provide players and management for interviews and press days, just in case someone might say something honest.
In regards to the coverage of the Rackard and Meagher finals (4th and 5th tier) it is a demand issue - in that there is no demand... Tyrone and Mayo are not Hurling counites and 15 mins on the Sunday Game isn't going to change that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Probably not, but since when did media coverage dictate the structure of what our games should be.
Club games generally dont have much media coverage....it doesn't dilute the passion or desire of the teams involved in a junior club championship final if they're not on tv.
They want to win, to prove themselves against the competitions who ever that may be.

I've changed my stance on this over the years where I used to be totally against a 2nd tier championship. But there is such a disparity now between teams that we are not getting competitive games until the semi-finals/finals and it seems to be getting worse. Teams need a chance to develop and a 20point hammering doesn't help anyone. 2nd or even 3rd tier championships, like the hurling are not an absolute fix to the problem (Derry v Offally in the Christy Ring being an example) but it should certainly still help teams develop.

I take your point though on RTE coverage. It shows very little respect to players and Counties in an AI final to only give a couple of minutes of an afterthought on the weekly highlights show. I just don't think the amount of tv coverage should come into the decision making process at all.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Teams moan and complain about the coverage of 2nd tier competitions yet they regularly fail to provide players and management for interviews and press days, just in case someone might say something honest.
In regards to the coverage of the Rackard and Meagher finals (4th and 5th tier) it is a demand issue - in that there is no demand... Tyrone and Mayo are not Hurling counites and 15 mins on the Sunday Game isn't going to change that.

Nobody in second tier hurling counties struggles to get access to players or management. I've done lots of pieces on them for a few places, and you get great copy, and people are only too happy to chat to you.

Also, TG4's success has proven that people will watch games if the coverage is good. It doesn't need to be the highest standard in the world for that to work out - how many of us would happily sit down and watch a good county final, even though a Christy Ring or Nickey Rackard final would be at least as good, if not better?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Probably not, but since when did media coverage dictate the structure of what our games should be.
Club games generally dont have much media coverage....it doesn't dilute the passion or desire of the teams involved in a junior club championship final if they're not on tv.
They want to win, to prove themselves against the competitions who ever that may be.

I've changed my stance on this over the years where I used to be totally against a 2nd tier championship. But there is such a disparity now between teams that we are not getting competitive games until the semi-finals/finals and it seems to be getting worse. Teams need a chance to develop and a 20point hammering doesn't help anyone. 2nd or even 3rd tier championships, like the hurling are not an absolute fix to the problem (Derry v Offally in the Christy Ring being an example) but it should certainly still help teams develop.

I take your point though on RTE coverage. It shows very little respect to players and Counties in an AI final to only give a couple of minutes of an afterthought on the weekly highlights show. I just don't think the amount of tv coverage should come into the decision making process at all.

Firstly, this is the nub of the issue - and creating tiered championships will only make that worse. Hurling has proven that. There are far fewer instances any more of teams at the Joe McDonagh level knocking over an elite team. During the  1980's and 1990's, Down beat Kilkenny in an important league match, Kerry knocked Waterford out of the championship, Westmeath beat Galway, Roscommon beat Wexford, and there were plenty more instances. Now we have a situation where Laois beat Dublin two years ago, arguably a game between two counties that would have been next to each other in the overall rankings at the time, in Portlaoise - and we all think that's the biggest upset imaginable.

Secondly, club is not comparable, for one simple reason. At club level, a player with Tuam Stars or Annaghdown will see his name in the Tuam Herald a lot more than a player with St. Gabriel's or Kilconly, but that's no huge sporting advantage. At county level, it means a massive difference in commercial income for the county, and thus more backroom support for county teams, while it's arguably a bigger advantage for the player. A Dublin player who suddenly needs €500 for an unexpected bill goes and cuts a ribbon at a local pharmacy, or pops up two sponsored instagram posts. A Wicklow player has to go out and work 25 hours of overtime, 25 hours in which the Dublin player is doing his recovery, extra skills work, video work, yoga etc..

Then the Wicklow player has to listen to people tell him how the Dublin players works harder than he does, and that's why he's successful.

This is why coverage is important - it levels the financial playing field. It's also why I know of some weaker counties that have said they'll happily support a tier two competition, as long as all the commercial sponsorship income going into each of the counties is pooled. Needless to say they were given short shrift when they made that suggestion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:26:33 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Teams moan and complain about the coverage of 2nd tier competitions yet they regularly fail to provide players and management for interviews and press days, just in case someone might say something honest.
In regards to the coverage of the Rackard and Meagher finals (4th and 5th tier) it is a demand issue - in that there is no demand... Tyrone and Mayo are not Hurling counites and 15 mins on the Sunday Game isn't going to change that.

Nobody in second tier hurling counties struggles to get access to players or management. I've done lots of pieces on them for a few places, and you get great copy, and people are only too happy to chat to you.

Also, TG4's success has proven that people will watch games if the coverage is good. It doesn't need to be the highest standard in the world for that to work out - how many of us would happily sit down and watch a good county final, even though a Christy Ring or Nickey Rackard final would be at least as good, if not better?

Good so there is no problem re coverage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Probably not, but since when did media coverage dictate the structure of what our games should be.
Club games generally dont have much media coverage....it doesn't dilute the passion or desire of the teams involved in a junior club championship final if they're not on tv.
They want to win, to prove themselves against the competitions who ever that may be.

I've changed my stance on this over the years where I used to be totally against a 2nd tier championship. But there is such a disparity now between teams that we are not getting competitive games until the semi-finals/finals and it seems to be getting worse. Teams need a chance to develop and a 20point hammering doesn't help anyone. 2nd or even 3rd tier championships, like the hurling are not an absolute fix to the problem (Derry v Offally in the Christy Ring being an example) but it should certainly still help teams develop.

I take your point though on RTE coverage. It shows very little respect to players and Counties in an AI final to only give a couple of minutes of an afterthought on the weekly highlights show. I just don't think the amount of tv coverage should come into the decision making process at all.

Firstly, this is the nub of the issue - and creating tiered championships will only make that worse. Hurling has proven that. There are far fewer instances any more of teams at the Joe McDonagh level knocking over an elite team. During the  1980's and 1990's, Down beat Kilkenny in an important league match, Kerry knocked Waterford out of the championship, Westmeath beat Galway, Roscommon beat Wexford, and there were plenty more instances. Now we have a situation where Laois beat Dublin two years ago, arguably a game between two counties that would have been next to each other in the overall rankings at the time, in Portlaoise - and we all think that's the biggest upset imaginable.

Secondly, club is not comparable, for one simple reason. At club level, a player with Tuam Stars or Annaghdown will see his name in the Tuam Herald a lot more than a player with St. Gabriel's or Kilconly, but that's no huge sporting advantage. At county level, it means a massive difference in commercial income for the county, and thus more backroom support for county teams, while it's arguably a bigger advantage for the player. A Dublin player who suddenly needs €500 for an unexpected bill goes and cuts a ribbon at a local pharmacy, or pops up two sponsored instagram posts. A Wicklow player has to go out and work 25 hours of overtime, 25 hours in which the Dublin player is doing his recovery, extra skills work, video work, yoga etc..

Then the Wicklow player has to listen to people tell him how the Dublin players works harder than he does, and that's why he's successful.

This is why coverage is important - it levels the financial playing field. It's also why I know of some weaker counties that have said they'll happily support a tier two competition, as long as all the commercial sponsorship income going into each of the counties is pooled. Needless to say they were given short shrift when they made that suggestion.

I think there is 4 hurling clubs in Tyrone with a senior team. In Donegal it used to be only one team. Cavan have a few teams. You're advocating that those counties who play lip service to Hurling should have a shot at winning the Liam McCarthy. Everyone needs to get real here.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 11:32:50 AM
Anybody read much in the papers about Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Antrim or Waterford footballers in the last few weeks?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on August 02, 2021, 11:37:55 AM
There has to be an outlet at the highest level for good players in smaller counties. There aren't many sports that I know of where the best players can never compete at the top. The county system is fundamentally flawed in that regard
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:38:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:26:33 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Teams moan and complain about the coverage of 2nd tier competitions yet they regularly fail to provide players and management for interviews and press days, just in case someone might say something honest.
In regards to the coverage of the Rackard and Meagher finals (4th and 5th tier) it is a demand issue - in that there is no demand... Tyrone and Mayo are not Hurling counites and 15 mins on the Sunday Game isn't going to change that.

Nobody in second tier hurling counties struggles to get access to players or management. I've done lots of pieces on them for a few places, and you get great copy, and people are only too happy to chat to you.

Also, TG4's success has proven that people will watch games if the coverage is good. It doesn't need to be the highest standard in the world for that to work out - how many of us would happily sit down and watch a good county final, even though a Christy Ring or Nickey Rackard final would be at least as good, if not better?

Good so there is no problem re coverage.

That's not what I said. There is no problem with access, once the will is there. I write for local papers, and for GAA.ie, who are interested in these stories. I'm not an editor for the Sunday Game or a commissioning producer for a TV station, which is the where the problem lies.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:41:54 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:38:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:26:33 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
A sign of things to come with any proposed tiered championship. The Sunday game showed highlights of the 3 hurling finals last night.

Ring - 2 minutes
Rackard - 1 minute 30 seconds
Meagher - 1 minute 20 seconds

With a total of 90 seconds discussion

And that was including celebrations and trophy lift. Bear in mind these were FINALS.

Let's not kid ourselves. Will the tier 2 or 3 football championships be any different?

Teams moan and complain about the coverage of 2nd tier competitions yet they regularly fail to provide players and management for interviews and press days, just in case someone might say something honest.
In regards to the coverage of the Rackard and Meagher finals (4th and 5th tier) it is a demand issue - in that there is no demand... Tyrone and Mayo are not Hurling counites and 15 mins on the Sunday Game isn't going to change that.

Nobody in second tier hurling counties struggles to get access to players or management. I've done lots of pieces on them for a few places, and you get great copy, and people are only too happy to chat to you.

Also, TG4's success has proven that people will watch games if the coverage is good. It doesn't need to be the highest standard in the world for that to work out - how many of us would happily sit down and watch a good county final, even though a Christy Ring or Nickey Rackard final would be at least as good, if not better?

Good so there is no problem re coverage.

That's not what I said. There is no problem with access, once the will is there. I write for local papers, and for GAA.ie, who are interested in these stories. I'm not an editor for the Sunday Game or a commissioning producer for a TV station, which is the where the problem lies.

Look I take your point. I sat down and watched Down v Monaghan on Friday. By chance just happened onto it, but my point is valid. Tyrone have no Hurling pedigree. They have very little interest in Hurling. I watched the Sunday game last night and went to bed after the football. RTE Editors would be castigated if they dedicated 15 mins to those 4th and 5th tier matches. There is very little demand unfortunately.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:45:11 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:29:29 AM


I think there is 4 hurling clubs in Tyrone with a senior team. In Donegal it used to be only one team. Cavan have a few teams. You're advocating that those counties who play lip service to Hurling should have a shot at winning the Liam McCarthy. Everyone needs to get real here.

Either argue with the actual points I made, or leave it be. Of course I'm not saying that Longford should enter the Leinster hurling championship. I'm saying that tiers are grand, as long as nobody mistakes them for a solution to the problem of a massive disparity in ability. Tiers give you a competition framework, but they aren't a helping hand to get better, and if they're not managed very carefully, they only serve to set in stone the gap between teams.

Also, when it comes to tier two football, we're not talking about putting counties who pay lip service to football into it. We're talking about putting Cavan into it. Westmeath, who gave Kildare a hell of a game in the Leinster semi-final and have been very competitive all year. Leitrim, where gaelic football is the only sport in the county worth talking about. Fermanagh, likewise.

In fact if we were to do tiers right to make it competitive, you'd actually put Division Two in there as well, since the big gap is between the top seven or eight teams and the rest. There's feck all between Division Two and Division Three. Do Meath, Cork and Galway pay lip service to football as well? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 11:46:39 AM
Talking of Tiers
Sligo had to give a walkover last year to Galway, while Fermanagh had to play a game without a scatter of players.
Will Cork be conceding
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0801/1238535-cork-unable-to-fulfil-u20-final-fixture-over-covid-case/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:41:54 AM

Look I take your point. I sat down and watched Down v Monaghan on Friday. By chance just happened onto it, but my point is valid. Tyrone have no Hurling pedigree. They have very little interest in Hurling. I watched the Sunday game last night and went to bed after the football. RTE Editors would be castigated if they dedicated 15 mins to those 4th and 5th tier matches. There is very little demand unfortunately.

How are you not getting this? The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny, and they are not the type of county that's at issue here. Offaly football and hurling is now broadly similar, in that we're ranked around the middle of the pack in both. Our football matches against Louth and Kildare got 100 times the exposure of all our Christy Ring Cup matches combined. Yet the interest level in the two teams, both domestically and nationally, is about the same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 12:13:23 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 11:41:54 AM

Look I take your point. I sat down and watched Down v Monaghan on Friday. By chance just happened onto it, but my point is valid. Tyrone have no Hurling pedigree. They have very little interest in Hurling. I watched the Sunday game last night and went to bed after the football. RTE Editors would be castigated if they dedicated 15 mins to those 4th and 5th tier matches. There is very little demand unfortunately.

How are you not getting this? The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny, and they are not the type of county that's at issue here. Offaly football and hurling is now broadly similar, in that we're ranked around the middle of the pack in both. Our football matches against Louth and Kildare got 100 times the exposure of all our Christy Ring Cup matches combined. Yet the interest level in the two teams, both domestically and nationally, is about the same.

Leave it so then. Lets all tune in to watch Tyrone put 20 points on Antrim. Do you think Pairc Chaoimh will be able to hold the crowd for the Clare V Waterford in the Football?
If teams are good enough by all means they should get the chance but the reality is this. Dublin are now playing in an All Ireland SF and no one has has come close to them Kerry likewise. It's a cake walk for them and totally unfair against other counties like Tyrone or Donegal who have to battle through a competitive Ulster.
Offaly aren't good enough in either codes. Their footballers got far too much exposure. Sure they have great pedigree but at this moment in time it's not happening. Their players train just as hard as Dublin but they are not good enough. All the column inches and TV exposure in Ireland will not change that. The more the GAA offers up these mis matches the more people will turn off.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 01:30:57 PM
The current proposals both have every team playing in their Provincials.
Having a graded AI inter Co Championship should stand or fall on its own merits I.e is it good for the game and especially in those Counties in the lower grade.
What media think is important is their business.
Mind you the GAA in giving TV rights could say. "For every 2 top tier matches you sho you must show 1 lower tier".
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Applesisapples on August 02, 2021, 02:00:55 PM
I have long held the view that there should be 3 tiers in Football, as with the hurling Counties would compete at a level at which they are competitive. Grade of All Ireland to be dictated by league status. Its all well and good saying players want a crack at Sam but unless the County has a good team this will invariably lead to a beating.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on August 02, 2021, 02:26:30 PM
Over the long run, there aren't as many tiers in football as there is in hurling. 

I would say you could get away with two. 

Consider over the last 20 years, there have been many times where typical division 3/4 teams have contested the latter stages of the championship or division 1 /2 in the league, or beaten typical mid- or top tier opposition.

It's becoming rarer, but off the top of my head:
Fermanagh 2004 AI Semi, Ulster Final 2018 - beat Armagh & Monaghan
Tipperary - All Ireland Semi - 2016
Wexford - All Ireland Semi - 2008, League Final - 2005, beat Galway in 2010
Wicklow - knocked Cavan, Down and Fermanagh out of the qualifiers in 2008
Carlow, beat Kildare 2018
Antrim, beat Donegal and Cavan to make an Ulster Final
Sligo have played in AIQFs and won Connacht
Limerick were respectable in the Munster Championship for much of the noughties

The point I'm making is that, for all of those teams, a Tier 2 competition could actually provide a spring board for success for a few years in the top tier. 

This will never happen in hurling, because while an Armagh, Tyrone or Mayo may win the Rackard Cup, they are unlikely to progress on and win a Ring Cup and get promoted to the Joe McDonagh or Liam McCarthy.  Even if they do, there isn't the interest or structures long term to sustain a long term progression, because the gap is so wide and the skills development from a young age is so critical. 

Football is different and some of these counties would have serious support (Sligo, Wexford etc).  If Dublin are to come back into the pack, it is possible to see a two tier competition work extremely well. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 02, 2021, 02:35:53 PM
Quote from: High Fielder on August 02, 2021, 11:37:55 AM
There has to be an outlet at the highest level for good players in smaller counties. There aren't many sports that I know of where the best players can never compete at the top. The county system is fundamentally flawed in that regard
That the problem- most amateur sports like boxing, gymnastics, athletics or whatever are individual sports, a class talent born in Dublin has as much chance of making it to the top as someone born in Wicklow- the individual talent shines through.


Most other team sports like soccer or whatever- if a world class talent like George Best is born in Belfast where the local standard is shite, he doesn't have to stick playing for his local team, he gets transferred to a better one.  doesn't matter where you are born (to a certain extent) a top talent in an individual sport only has to rely on themselves whereas in team sports they are obviously depending on those around them to make it to the top.

If talents like David Clifford and Con O'C were born in Waterford or Wicklow, it doesn't matter how good they are they have about as much chance as winning an All Ireland as I have of winning Miss World. But that comes with the territory of the GAA being first and foremost about representing your local area be it county or club and I'd never want to lose that.

Quick example look at Aston Villa and Jack Grealish at the minute, he's being offered crazy money to leave his boyhood club, sadly for him he'll have to leave them at somestage to have a hope at winning anything.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on August 02, 2021, 02:58:48 PM
make the AI series a stand alone. do away with pre season tournament, McKenna cup etc. play provincial series before the league season starts. Play the leagues as normal, do away with league finals just do winners promoted. Play the 2 tier championship after on a knock out basis. with the winner of tier 2 gaining a place in next years tier 1 (and div 2). I genuinely dont see how anyone could have any complaints at that. every other sport in the world has teams graded by ability, I dont know why the GAA think that Gaelic football should be different.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:00:02 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 02:21:12 PM
8 teams in the championship (presumably having to play each other a hape of times to prolong it beyond 3 weeks)? No thank you.

The current format is completely drawn out. Pre Covid it took Connacht about 4 months to run off their province. 3 weekends would've sufficed. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: APM on August 02, 2021, 02:26:30 PM
Over the long run, there aren't as many tiers in football as there is in hurling. 

I would say you could get away with two. 

Consider over the last 20 years, there have been many times where typical division 3/4 teams have contested the latter stages of the championship or division 1 /2 in the league, or beaten typical mid- or top tier opposition.

It's becoming rarer, but off the top of my head:
Fermanagh 2004 AI Semi, Ulster Final 2018 - beat Armagh & Monaghan
Tipperary - All Ireland Semi - 2016
Wexford - All Ireland Semi - 2008, League Final - 2005, beat Galway in 2010
Wicklow - knocked Cavan, Down and Fermanagh out of the qualifiers in 2008
Carlow, beat Kildare 2018
Antrim, beat Donegal and Cavan to make an Ulster Final
Sligo have played in AIQFs and won Connacht
Limerick were respectable in the Munster Championship for much of the noughties

The point I'm making is that, for all of those teams, a Tier 2 competition could actually provide a spring board for success for a few years in the top tier. 

This will never happen in hurling, because while an Armagh, Tyrone or Mayo may win the Rackard Cup, they are unlikely to progress on and win a Ring Cup and get promoted to the Joe McDonagh or Liam McCarthy.  Even if they do, there isn't the interest or structures long term to sustain a long term progression, because the gap is so wide and the skills development from a young age is so critical. 

Football is different and some of these counties would have serious support (Sligo, Wexford etc).  If Dublin are to come back into the pack, it is possible to see a two tier competition work extremely well.

There are still plenty of instances of Division Three and four teams beating Division Two teams. There are zero instances of shock defeats for the established counties at the top of the pecking order - Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo, Donegal. Monaghan seem to be the only team that are able to trouble those elite powers, but can also be vulnerable to sucker punches from weaker opposition themselves.

Take away 2020, when no team was prepared properly, and basically the only teams that beat that elite group are each other. There's your tier one, and everyone else is tier two. There's a greater chance of a bad Division four team like Sligo or Carlow beating a top ten side like Roscommon or Meath than there is of that top ten team turning over Kerry or Dublin.

Anything that happened prior to 2010 is irrelevant. Since we changed the leagues from 1a/1b/2a/2b to 1/2/3/4, the strong got stronger and the weaker fell away. Before that change (allowing a couple of years for the effects to bake in) is a different world.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on August 02, 2021, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 11:46:39 AM
Talking of Tiers
Sligo had to give a walkover last year to Galway, while Fermanagh had to play a game without a scatter of players.
Will Cork be conceding
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0801/1238535-cork-unable-to-fulfil-u20-final-fixture-over-covid-case/
Match rescheduled for next week. As expected the bigger more high profile county accommodated.

The way Fermanagh and Sligo was treated last year showed what those at the top thought of the lesser counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on August 02, 2021, 02:58:48 PM
make the AI series a stand alone. do away with pre season tournament, McKenna cup etc. play provincial series before the league season starts. Play the leagues as normal, do away with league finals just do winners promoted. Play the 2 tier championship after on a knock out basis. with the winner of tier 2 gaining a place in next years tier 1 (and div 2). I genuinely dont see how anyone could have any complaints at that. every other sport in the world has teams graded by ability, I dont know why the GAA think that Gaelic football should be different.

I think two tiers is enough.
I don't mind pre-season tournaments like the McKenna cup. They are a good way to prepare for the season ahead, glorified friendlies really. But they should be run off over a couple of weeks. Two/three games a week for each team, it will ensure the whole panel of players get used and brings the focus onto playing football rather than doing loads of fitness work on a training field.

The provincial championship remains as is but the AI championship gets split into 2 tiers. Tier1 in my head is Div1&2 plus teams promoted from Div3 that year.
Tier2 is everyone else.
Straight knockout format in the AI series, regardless of Tier.

This ties consistent league form to championship entered and should give lower division teams who are on form or progressing a chance at the big boys in the AI series. But it should also give the Div3/4 teams something to aim for post league, as realistically at the moment when the league is over, their championship is over too. I also would stipulate that only league position will determine championship Tier, so that the winner of Tier2 doesn't automatically go into Tier1 next year.

Retaining the provincials will give the lower div teams the chance to beat their neighbours but also give them a chance at an AI competition. 
I'd scrap all league finals as I don't see the point in them. The top team at the end of a league campaign should be the division winner.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

No because I am from Tyrone that would've been wrong.
It's absolutely irrelevant to the debate 65 years on but yes if they weren't good enough then of course they should've been.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 03:23:53 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on August 02, 2021, 02:58:48 PM
make the AI series a stand alone. do away with pre season tournament, McKenna cup etc. play provincial series before the league season starts. Play the leagues as normal, do away with league finals just do winners promoted. Play the 2 tier championship after on a knock out basis. with the winner of tier 2 gaining a place in next years tier 1 (and div 2). I genuinely dont see how anyone could have any complaints at that. every other sport in the world has teams graded by ability, I dont know why the GAA think that Gaelic football should be different.

I think two tiers is enough.
I don't mind pre-season tournaments like the McKenna cup. They are a good way to prepare for the season ahead, glorified friendlies really. But they should be run off over a couple of weeks. Two/three games a week for each team, it will ensure the whole panel of players get used and brings the focus onto playing football rather than doing loads of fitness work on a training field.

The provincial championship remains as is but the AI championship gets split into 2 tiers. Tier1 in my head is Div1&2 plus teams promoted from Div3 that year.
Tier2 is everyone else.
Straight knockout format in the AI series, regardless of Tier.

This ties consistent league form to championship entered and should give lower division teams who are on form or progressing a chance at the big boys in the AI series. But it should also give the Div3/4 teams something to aim for post league, as realistically at the moment when the league is over, their championship is over too. I also would stipulate that only league position will determine championship Tier, so that the winner of Tier2 doesn't automatically go into Tier1 next year.

Retaining the provincials will give the lower div teams the chance to beat their neighbours but also give them a chance at an AI competition. 
I'd scrap all league finals as I don't see the point in them. The top team at the end of a league campaign should be the division winner.

Despite the fact that if the name of the game was to reduce mismatches, Division two teams should clearly be put in tier two, based on results over the last three or four years? Again I say, Division three and four teams being competitive against D2 happens all the time. D2 being competitive against the top five or six happened a couple of times in 2020 when everyone's preparation was disrupted, and basically never outside of that?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
Likewise Kerry vs Clare, Kerry vs Cork. Tier two for them boyos as well, if mismatches is your problem.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I’m not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don’t necessarily agree with that and I can’t see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that’s not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

No because I am from Tyrone that would've been wrong.
It's absolutely irrelevant to the debate 65 years on but yes if they weren't good enough then of course they should've been.

It's actually very relevant just don't let your biased views cloud that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

No because I am from Tyrone that would've been wrong.
It's absolutely irrelevant to the debate 65 years on but yes if they weren't good enough then of course they should've been.

It's actually very relevant just don't let your biased views cloud that.

You're going to need to share your definition of the word "biased" as it doesn't make sense in this context. Maybe it means something else in your part of the world?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

No because I am from Tyrone that would've been wrong.
It's absolutely irrelevant to the debate 65 years on but yes if they weren't good enough then of course they should've been.

It's actually very relevant just don't let your biased views cloud that.

You're going to need to share your definition of the word "biased" as it doesn't make sense in this context. Maybe it means something else in your part of the world?
You can read back on your own comment. "No because I am from Tyrone" Enough said.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tbrick18 on August 02, 2021, 05:00:24 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 03:32:51 PM
I'd agree with that. The team that took the biggest humping in this years Ulster Championship was Down. They'd be in Tier 1 by tbrick18's split.

True, but that was in the Ulster Championship which would be affected by the Tiers or determine what Tier you would be in. League position would as it gives a better notion on where a team consistently performs.
In my Tier1 idea, Down would be more likely to be drawn against a team of similar ability than one of vastly superior ability.
We'd never be able to completely remove the possibility of a team getting tanked. Sure a Div4 team could hammer another Div4 team and that has happened in the past I'm sure.
The point is that in general the teams in each Tier at the AI level have a realistic opportunity to progress and most teams would be in with a chance of winning.

It's all hypothetical anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 02, 2021, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 02, 2021, 03:48:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PMTyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

I'm old enough to recall Tyrone playing in Division 3 and Division 3 (North) in the NFL in the late 80's and early 90's, the latter relegated to that Division not long after the All-Ireland final of 1986. Hard to argue that given the results in the league that this was merited.

Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:50:56 AM...The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny...

Such comparisons IMO are lazy. Hurling in Tyrone, like in most counties north of the Dublin to Galway railway line, is largely kept going by a small number (compared to football) of enthusiasts that are able to sustain county teams at adult and youth levels. In KK OTOH football is more of an off-season activity to be played before the hurling kicks in, meaning that far more club hurlers in Kilkenny play competitive football than club footballers in Tyrone play competitive hurling. The flip side of this is that there is next to no enthusiasm for football at intercounty level in Kilkenny even among the few that take more interest in it over hurling. If the Tyrone county hurling teams were to be comparable to Kilkenny county footballers, they'd be regularly hockyed in the basement of the NHL & Lory Meagher Cup if they bothered to field at all.

It's easy to take up football anytime even if you've never played. It's basic game reduced to glorified basketball. Footballers who never held a hurl couldn't even attempt a go at it off season. Football is more popular because it's easy to start up , play and compete in .
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 02, 2021, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 02, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not sure I follow.

Monaghan played Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone this year. Are you saying it would have been much better if they had just played Armagh and Tyrone?

Was the interest in those games less because they played Fermanagh first?

Dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I don't see what Fermanagh got out of the 10 point defeat. Would they not have been better to play teams at their level?
Sorry, I thought your point was that having teams like Fermanagh in the championship is the reason why people are turning off/losing interest.

I don't necessarily agree with that and I can't see how early round mismatches have any bearing on the interest people have in the matches later on in the championship.
People understand that Tyrone are likely to put 20 points on Antrim and may only show a passing interest in that game but that's not going to put them off the whole championship.

Yes 100% not the whole championship. But there are lots of different issues here.
Mis Matches: People as you say are turned off the mis matches but by not grading teams we miss the chance of some great games at 2nd and 3rd tiers. Like in reality the Championship is only started to get interesting for Dublin, Kerry and probably Mayo. But if we had 8 teams all playing each other in an even format, the quality and the product would be far superior at all levels.

Coverage: Weird one for me. There are hapes of instances of managers denying access to players for interviews. Teams are named with a host of changes. No one had a notion of the Tyrone team on Saturday and when it did come out it wasn't near right. There was changes on the Dublin team as well. Teams moan all the time but they don't help themselves. By all means promote the dung out of the games but Counties shoulder a lot of the blame for me.
GAA should insist that all teams are named 2 days before the game any changes only within the 26 named. And a mandatory press conference with Management and Players available before and after.

Chance to win Sam or Liam: Another red herring. Leitrim, Antrim, Sligo etc have no chance of winning Sam and this is the reality. Put them in a competition that they can realistically win and get promoted from.

There is no rational for continuing with the current Provincial and All Ireland format. It's time we all got real.
Tyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

No because I am from Tyrone that would've been wrong.
It's absolutely irrelevant to the debate 65 years on but yes if they weren't good enough then of course they should've been.

It's actually very relevant just don't let your biased views cloud that.

You're going to need to share your definition of the word "biased" as it doesn't make sense in this context. Maybe it means something else in your part of the world?
You can read back on your own comment. "No because I am from Tyrone" Enough said.

Sorry that was actually joke. If you had have read the entire post all 32 words of it (I know, quite a lot) you would've realised that I absolutely think they should've been in a 2nd or 3rd tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 05:14:31 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 02, 2021, 03:48:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 02, 2021, 03:05:54 PMTyrone didn't win their first Ulster title until 1956. That was very shoddy. Should Tyrone have been shunted off into a different competition in the 1940s?

I'm old enough to recall Tyrone playing in Division 3 and Division 3 (North) in the NFL in the late 80's and early 90's, the latter relegated to that Division not long after the All-Ireland final of 1986. Hard to argue that given the results in the league that this was merited.

Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 11:50:56 AM...The only footballing equivalent to Tyrone hurling is Kilkenny...

Such comparisons IMO are lazy. Hurling in Tyrone, like in most counties north of the Dublin to Galway railway line, is largely kept going by a small number (compared to football) of enthusiasts that are able to sustain county teams at adult and youth levels. In KK OTOH football is more of an off-season activity to be played before the hurling kicks in, meaning that far more club hurlers in Kilkenny play competitive football than club footballers in Tyrone play competitive hurling. The flip side of this is that there is next to no enthusiasm for football at intercounty level in Kilkenny even among the few that take more interest in it over hurling. If the Tyrone county hurling teams were to be comparable to Kilkenny county footballers, they'd be regularly hockyed in the basement of the NHL & Lory Meagher Cup if they bothered to field at all.

I would argue that there is roughly the same amount of enthusiasm for football in Kilkenny as there is hurling in Tyrone, and while it's run off season, that's to ensure that they get a chunk of the year where they can play their games unimpeded. I'd argue that if Tyrone GAA offered the same to Tyrone hurling, it would probably be an improvement on what they have for most ordinary players. Yes, they sacrifice county to have a decent enough club championship, and there is an argument to say that this is probably healthier than what happens to hurling in the majority of counties north of the N5.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on August 02, 2021, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 02, 2021, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: APM on August 02, 2021, 02:26:30 PM
Over the long run, there aren't as many tiers in football as there is in hurling. 

I would say you could get away with two. 

Consider over the last 20 years, there have been many times where typical division 3/4 teams have contested the latter stages of the championship or division 1 /2 in the league, or beaten typical mid- or top tier opposition.

It's becoming rarer, but off the top of my head:
Fermanagh 2004 AI Semi, Ulster Final 2018 - beat Armagh & Monaghan
Tipperary - All Ireland Semi - 2016
Wexford - All Ireland Semi - 2008, League Final - 2005, beat Galway in 2010
Wicklow - knocked Cavan, Down and Fermanagh out of the qualifiers in 2008
Carlow, beat Kildare 2018
Antrim, beat Donegal and Cavan to make an Ulster Final
Sligo have played in AIQFs and won Connacht
Limerick were respectable in the Munster Championship for much of the noughties

The point I'm making is that, for all of those teams, a Tier 2 competition could actually provide a spring board for success for a few years in the top tier. 

This will never happen in hurling, because while an Armagh, Tyrone or Mayo may win the Rackard Cup, they are unlikely to progress on and win a Ring Cup and get promoted to the Joe McDonagh or Liam McCarthy.  Even if they do, there isn't the interest or structures long term to sustain a long term progression, because the gap is so wide and the skills development from a young age is so critical. 

Football is different and some of these counties would have serious support (Sligo, Wexford etc).  If Dublin are to come back into the pack, it is possible to see a two tier competition work extremely well.

There are still plenty of instances of Division Three and four teams beating Division Two teams. There are zero instances of shock defeats for the established counties at the top of the pecking order - Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo, Donegal. Monaghan seem to be the only team that are able to trouble those elite powers, but can also be vulnerable to sucker punches from weaker opposition themselves.

Take away 2020, when no team was prepared properly, and basically the only teams that beat that elite group are each other. There's your tier one, and everyone else is tier two. There's a greater chance of a bad Division four team like Sligo or Carlow beating a top ten side like Roscommon or Meath than there is of that top ten team turning over Kerry or Dublin.

Anything that happened prior to 2010 is irrelevant. Since we changed the leagues from 1a/1b/2a/2b to 1/2/3/4, the strong got stronger and the weaker fell away. Before that change (allowing a couple of years for the effects to bake in) is a different world.

I think that's spot on actually. 

Changing the leagues from 1a/1b etc, probably seemed like a logical thing to do at the time. 
Ironically, it was probably good for the league as a competition, but ultimately as you say, it was bad for overall competition

I would previously have explained the progress of Sligo, Wexford, Fermanagh etc in the 00s by the qualifier system.  I'd say there is a very strong case for it being the league structure. Because for a good 10 year period, you had the top 16 teams playing against each other. 

Am I right in saying that the big downside was that promotion was between 1b and 2b and between 1a and 2a it was a case of never the twain shall meet for teams that were in league division A and those in league division B.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 08:01:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?
Tyrone get to play a full national league, likely in Div 1, an Ulster Championship (at least one game), and then All Ireland (at least one game), and with the thrill of knock out football and open draws - I'm ready for that, and it's at least one game more than most counties enjoy on a regular basis, plus very few hammerings.  Just my tuppence worth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?

Yep.
That's how it should be.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 08:01:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?
Tyrone get to play a full national league, likely in Div 1, an Ulster Championship (at least one game), and then All Ireland (at least one game), and with the thrill of knock out football and open draws - I'm ready for that, and it's at least one game more than most counties enjoy on a regular basis, plus very few hammerings.  Just my tuppence worth.

Yes, but also no. I'd be up for that but invert it and give Sam to the league winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: yellowcard on August 02, 2021, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?

Yep.
That's how it should be.

Would agree with that. The League already provides plenty of games for the top sides to play each other so I've no interest in watching super 8 type drawn out structures without the cutting edge of knockout football. Also allows for a proper split season for club football to take place. It's the most sensible logical solution.

The problem will be in getting the provincial councils to agree to abolish the link between their championships and the AI series. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 08:24:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2021, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?

Yep.
That's how it should be.

Would agree with that. The League already provides plenty of games for the top sides to play each other so I've no interest in watching super 8 type drawn out structures without the cutting edge of knockout football. Also allows for a proper split season for club football to take place. It's the most sensible logical solution.

The problem will be in getting the provincial councils to agree to abolish the link between their championships and the AI series. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
I honestly think there's enough honour baked into the provincial championships that they'd be fine.  Every team wants to give every competition a good rattle.  This way every county would be in at least two competitions which they'd have a chance of winning, and they get a free shot at their Province if they are a 'weaker county' - nothing to lose and a realistic route to climbing the ladder.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 08:57:35 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 08:24:15 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2021, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 02, 2021, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on August 02, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
For me the answer is open draw knock-out Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland's, same as clubs.  Lots of lads on here will have proudly won a Junior or Intermediate with their club and it's a stepping stone to the next level.  All Ireland B, Tailteann Cup etc just don't get me interested but if my county was in the Junior level and aiming for an All Ireland final in Croke Park then I'd be looking forward to it, plus can enjoy the big teams in the Senior as well knocking bells out of each other.  Keep the Provincials as separate competitions and use the leagues to determine who is at what level.

No. This definitely not the answer. We want more evenly matched games. Not less.
Don't think you've read it right, or else I haven't explained myself - 3 tiers, junior, intermediate and senior = more evenly matched games.

But still open draw knock out? Tyrone draw Dublin 1st round and one of them is out? Season over?

Yep.
That's how it should be.

Would agree with that. The League already provides plenty of games for the top sides to play each other so I've no interest in watching super 8 type drawn out structures without the cutting edge of knockout football. Also allows for a proper split season for club football to take place. It's the most sensible logical solution.

The problem will be in getting the provincial councils to agree to abolish the link between their championships and the AI series. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
I honestly think there's enough honour baked into the provincial championships that they'd be fine.  Every team wants to give every competition a good rattle.  This way every county would be in at least two competitions which they'd have a chance of winning, and they get a free shot at their Province if they are a 'weaker county' - nothing to lose and a realistic route to climbing the ladder.

As interesting and competitive as the league can be, the big teams at the top don't go at it flat out. Half arsed lineouts, players having a rest until the championship, once safety is achieved they can't be arsed etc. They seek the bigger prize, and by doing that, the league in reality is devalued. A league title means a lot less than it did.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on August 02, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Look at the pathetic coverage of the three hurling finals this weekend.
That is where a Tier 2 football competition will end up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 02, 2021, 09:13:48 PM
Bet the 3 winning sides  aren't crying all weekend over the lack of coverage.
Apart from Offaly none of the other 5 hurling teams ever got much media coverage as they played their minority sport.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on August 02, 2021, 09:24:36 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 02, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Look at the pathetic coverage of the three hurling finals this weekend.
That is where a Tier 2 football competition will end up.

Their finals were at croke park which was a great bonus for the players. Have any of those counties ever had any kind of decent support for their hurlers? They haven't and that's why there would be no great interest in showing the matches on tv. It's different for football where counties at all levels can get big crowds for championship matches. There is a good interest in those counties and even neutrals could enjoy seeing them eg if Meath and Cork were playing in an All Ireland intermediate final or Offaly and Tipperary in an All Ireland junior final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 02, 2021, 09:27:44 PM
I was against tiered competitions until this year... especially the way Mayo hammered Sligo and Leitrim. However should Cork be excluded from tier 1 given the tanking they took from Kerry last week?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on August 02, 2021, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 02, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Look at the pathetic coverage of the three hurling finals this weekend.
That is where a Tier 2 football competition will end up.

Mayo hurlers won at the weekend. How many people travelled down to that compared to the footballers?

The level of coverage was comparable to the level of interest to those teams.

How much coverage did the Wicklow, Waterford, Antrim footballers for example get on the Sunday Game for their games this season?

People claiming lack of media coverage for 2nd tier competitions seem to ignore smaller counties are more or less ignored as it is. At least if they got to a 2tier final they'd actually get some national coverage in the papers/tv
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 02, 2021, 09:49:41 PM
Rankings probably are Kerry and Dublin out on their own and will tank anyone else bar Mayo who you'd say would be close to the other 2 but also likely to be caught out by the lesser teams below them, the likes of the 4 Ulster semi finalists (Derry will be in this bracket soon if they keep improving), and Galway. Probably a bit further back would be the Kildares, the Meaths the Corks and Clares. The likes of these probably aren't tier one material but would be safer off playing each other in a meaningful championship game rather than getting whacked by Kerry or Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 02, 2021, 09:55:15 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on August 02, 2021, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 02, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Look at the pathetic coverage of the three hurling finals this weekend.
That is where a Tier 2 football competition will end up.

Mayo hurlers won at the weekend. How many people travelled down to that compared to the footballers?

The level of coverage was comparable to the level of interest to those teams.

How much coverage did the Wicklow, Waterford, Antrim footballers for example get on the Sunday Game for their games this season?

People claiming lack of media coverage for 2nd tier competitions seem to ignore smaller counties are more or less ignored as it is. At least if they got to a 2tier final they'd actually get some national coverage in the papers/tv

I was in Croke park for Tyrone v Mayo and I didn't even watch it, yet some people want a full Sunday game analysis on it for the 6 people who'd tune in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 02, 2021, 11:01:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 02, 2021, 09:55:15 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on August 02, 2021, 09:48:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 02, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Look at the pathetic coverage of the three hurling finals this weekend.
That is where a Tier 2 football competition will end up.

Mayo hurlers won at the weekend. How many people travelled down to that compared to the footballers?

The level of coverage was comparable to the level of interest to those teams.

How much coverage did the Wicklow, Waterford, Antrim footballers for example get on the Sunday Game for their games this season?

People claiming lack of media coverage for 2nd tier competitions seem to ignore smaller counties are more or less ignored as it is. At least if they got to a 2tier final they'd actually get some national coverage in the papers/tv

I was in Croke park for Tyrone v Mayo and I didn't even watch it, yet some people want a full Sunday game analysis on it for the 6 people who'd tune in.

What you go in for ? By the way great day for Keith Higgins , he certainly looked to be seeing the value Nicky Rackard.
These lads are what the GAA is all about , passion
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: TheGreatest on August 03, 2021, 09:20:31 AM
5th Time in 9 years its Dublin, Mayo , Kerry and Tyrone in the semis. Every second year since 2013. @fotoole13 in twitter.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on August 03, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
Quote from: TheGreatest on August 03, 2021, 09:20:31 AM
5th Time in 9 years its Dublin, Mayo , Kerry and Tyrone in the semis. Every second year since 2013. @fotoole13 in twitter.
And that's a big problem.  There has been no credible ladder back to the top for the Down's and Offaly's of this world. They've both produced fine U20 teams this year through a lot of hard work no doubt, but will anything have changed in 5 years time?  If there was tiering, those Down and Offaly lads would be finding their feet next year at say intermediate level, aiming to win silverware, and climb the ladder.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.

Thats because soccer is the game of choice in larges swathes of those areas. I wouldnt say Derry are nowhere. Footballers got promoted/won league and pushed DL to a point. Hurlers got to CR final. Minor footballers are AI champs 2020. The U17 hurlers won 3rd Celtic Challenge in a rown and u20 hurlers are in AI B final this Wednesday. Better balanced than Tyrone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:46:41 AM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 03, 2021, 11:21:02 AM
Antrim try to ride 2 horses with football and hurling.

Edit: I'm not suggesting that this is their only problem but they are splitting resources a lot closer to the middle than most other counties.

drop the football lol
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 12:00:26 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 03, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

A lot of counties don't deserve to be in the same competition as the top teams. Antrim are a good example a team that fails to field a team in same jersey. These so called weaker counties are only weak because they are run by imbeciles. Get their house in order and then worry about trying to win a football match.

Surely population and money play a big part

Does it? Antrim and Derry have a bigger population that Tyrone yet they are nowhere. Two counties who should really look at themselves and wonder what the f**k they are at.

Thats because soccer is the game of choice in larges swathes of those areas. I wouldnt say Derry are nowhere. Footballers got promoted/won league and pushed DL to a point. Hurlers got to CR final. Minor footballers are AI champs 2020. The U17 hurlers won 3rd Celtic Challenge in a rown and u20 hurlers are in AI B final this Wednesday. Better balanced than Tyrone

Yes Derry are up to Div 2 and should be pushing for promotion next year and Minors did well, but it wasn't that long ago they were Div 4 which was a disgrace.
Tyrone have a lot of work to do in Hurling, but I'm not standing here saying they should be in Liam McCarthy competition which is the argument some are making for Antrim.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 12:03:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

There's absolutely nothing prophetic about looking at competitions that have previously failed, analysing why they failed, and assessing that if attempted again, the same thing would happen again. It should be as much commonsense as not eating Jellyfish.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: yellowcard on August 03, 2021, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

So you're suggesting a single tier championship with 16 teams and that the bottom 16 sides will only play League football? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 03, 2021, 12:32:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford /
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford also victims of Kerry
Soccer relevant in Longford, Sligo, Wicklow , Louth etc
Antrim never got over the Troubles.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 12:35:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 03, 2021, 12:32:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Weaker football Counties and the reason
Hurling -Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford /
Population Fermanagh *, Leitrim,  Longford, Carlow.
Tipp and Clare pinching above their weights recently, as did Wexfird and Limerick some years ago.
Overseas London.
No excuse Antrim,  Louth Wicklow.

* 48% of population not interested.

Some posters here seem to have the gift of prophecy!

Tipperary, Clare,  Limerick,  Waterford also victims of Kerry
Soccer relevant in Longford, Sligo, Wicklow , Louth etc
Antrim never got over the Troubles.

I don't understand this. Please explain. Are they still fighting the troubles 23 years on?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 03, 2021, 11:34:53 AM
Sligo? Cavan?
Temporary blips.
Sligo are operating with a bit of a handicap with the town being a soccer stronghold. E.g Ros Co Board area pop 61k has around 6,500 registered players, Sligo pop 65k has around 4,800.

Wobbler, I agree that the Tailtean  Cup could go the way of TM and the AI ' B' as the GAA seem intent on  making it another meaningless tournament with all sorts of escape hatches for teams to get out of it.
As for myself I favour copying the System that serves well in  Club football, Club and County hurling, Club and County Camogie  and Club and County Ladies football.
Graded AI Championships with promotion/relegation. Now if that's to be doubled up with the League or whatever off  ye go.
However that's not what's planned to be going to this special Congress which was to be held in October.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 03, 2021, 12:43:00 PM
There are arguments for those in favour of 2nd tier and those not in favour of 2nd tier competitions.

To stick with football (lets not cloud it with hurling) having a second division championship will improve competitiveness within that group to gain promotion, some teams improve with promotion and stay up and compete, but they must work on their juvenile and structures to continue to bring along those players into senior

Of course some teams go straight back down and that is the case in all sporting leagues, getting a taste of the top tier can keep the fire there. You only have to look at club teams that traditionally would have never competed at senior level but have improved structures to the point that they are winning championships, if it can be done at club level then it should be replicated at county level.

Being in the top tier does allow you more exposure which has a knocked on affect with younger ones watching and getting involved, improving participation, but wining a championship at any level produces the same effect, getting to Croke park to see your county is a great moment, the competition really doesn't feature to the fan in fairness, maybe the players have a different view.

What we need to have is good grass root structures at county level, good schools producing good teams which are the building blocks to the future, if you don't then it'll be a flash in the pan type results every 10/15 years, that has nothing to do with the competitions, be they 4th 3rd 2nd or top tier, it's totally down to the CB to fix that and plan properly to provide the structures needed.

The gaps between the top teams will continue with 'we' don't get our act together.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 12:53:30 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 03, 2021, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

So you're suggesting a single tier championship with 16 teams and that the bottom 16 sides will only play League football?

That's one way of looking at it.

The other is that the championship would then become an extension / culmination of the league, and to reach the knockout stages you must have a successful league run.

There'd be at least 2 changes in the the knockout qualifying teams every year.

This is a format that will work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 01:00:51 PM
Maybe it's a long blip ;D
Sligo were very competitive in the 2001 to 2010 decade and could regularly make the BIG 3 sweat.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: yellowcard on August 03, 2021, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 12:53:30 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 03, 2021, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
I'm sure I've mentioned it before on this thread. But to go again.

The league offers team natural progression and (mostly) a relevant standard of football.

A championship cannot do this. No matter how you dress it up, for the smaller and weaker counties, the reaper will swing his scythe before it gets interesting.

We do not need 32 counties in the AISF Championship. 16 would be plenty. And the league should be used to determine which 16.

But more importantly we do NOT need a Championship for the bottom 16 teams. For the simple reason that these players can all return immediately to club football, and many, many of them will.

Which means that any "intermediate" county success will always be tarnished by the fact that it'll be a competition in which a lot counties/players have no desire to compete. Everyone will know this and it will have a knock on effect of diluting its integrity further and further each year. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't produce a sprinkling of success stories and happy memories. But ultimately, so does club football - which often time would be better attended, higher profile and more competitive.

How can I be so confident about this?

It's simple enough. History. The problems with AI B championships and Tommy Murphy cups was never marketing, and always player interest. The lure of playing competitive top flight club football is simply too strong compared to the lure of playing lower rung county football.

People need to stop making fantasy stories in their head about how Louth or Antrim's footballers will do anything for a day out in Croke Park, and realise that the drive to play football comes from competition, not venues.

So you're suggesting a single tier championship with 16 teams and that the bottom 16 sides will only play League football?

That's one way of looking at it.

The other is that the championship would then become an extension / culmination of the league, and to reach the knockout stages you must have a successful league run.

There'd be at least 2 changes in the the knockout qualifying teams every year.

This is a format that will work.

I can see your point in terms of the difficulty in getting player buy in for a second tier championship but I think it needs to be at least properly trialed in parallel with the senior championship for a period. I don't see how denying the bottom 16 teams any form of intercounty championship football will do anything for player buy in either.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 01:58:29 PM
But it's not a case of denying them an intercounty championship.

It's rewarding progress and effort over a season (two at worst) with a place in the knockout stages. Not much different to how NFL playoff system operates.

Honestly the biggest roadblocks that intercounty game faces is people coming to terms with the fact that there's 20+ counties in Ireland now take league football more seriously than the the AISFC..: and that holding onto this 1920s vision that championship is everything, is misguided and even a little insulting.

Liatroim's effort levels vs Mayo a few weeks ago epitomises what the championship has become. We really, really don't need this format (automatic entry) to have thriving intercounty games. The league will provide the competition and the enjoyment needed for every player in Ireland . The playoffs then serves as a cherry on top for the elite.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 02:53:18 PM
Are you from Louth?

Or are you just trying to guess what it would feel like?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Applesisapples on August 03, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Wouldn't quite put it like that, but you see how in LGFA and Camogie a championship win for Intermediate and Junior Counties with a move up next year motivates the teams. Its like the old days when a club is in the middle of division 2 and persists in entering the Senior Championship as they've always been a senior team, albeit they only won it once 30 years ago. Sometimes decisions have to be taken out of the hands of players and county officials for the good of the game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 03, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Wouldn't quite put it like that, but you see how in LGFA and Camogie a championship win for Intermediate and Junior Counties with a move up next year motivates the teams. Its like the old days when a club is in the middle of division 2 and persists in entering the Senior Championship as they've always been a senior team, albeit they only won it once 30 years ago. Sometimes decisions have to be taken out of the hands of players and county officials for the good of the game.

It was tongue n cheek. But I agree I think we need 3 levels.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 04:35:56 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 02:53:18 PM
Are you from Louth?

Or are you just trying to guess what it would feel like?

Yeah I didn't write it correctly..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 04:59:28 PM
3 Tiers are successfully implemented at club level in every county. Its a big thing to win a junior championship if you happen to play at that level. I have written this before it is all about marketing at county level. Here is what is needed in my opinion.

All Ireland Final day is Senior, Intermediate and Junior finals all played one after each other. Minor final moved to a different date.
6 teams get 83,000 tickets minus say 10,000 for sponsors, players etc etc. So 70k odd tickets/6 = 12k tickets per county
No tickets for every club in Ireland. This has to stop.
TV rights to All Ireland final sold to competing TV channels only on the proviso that they show all 3 games live.
I think team holidays paid for by Croke Park as Mr Brolly suggested I think would also be a good incentive for the 3 winners.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 03, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Wouldn't quite put it like that, but you see how in LGFA and Camogie a championship win for Intermediate and Junior Counties with a move up next year motivates the teams. Its like the old days when a club is in the middle of division 2 and persists in entering the Senior Championship as they've always been a senior team, albeit they only won it once 30 years ago. Sometimes decisions have to be taken out of the hands of players and county officials for the good of the game.

It was tongue n cheek. But I agree I think we need 3 levels.

So that'll be say, 10/11 teams in Tier 1?

No doubt a champions league style format for the Championship is coming. So yes, you're right, we need yet more games between Dublin Kerry Mayo and Tyrone every week. We don't get nearly enough of those  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 04:59:28 PM
3 Tiers are successfully implemented at club level in every county. Its a big thing to win a junior championship if you happen to play at that level. I have written this before it is all about marketing at county level. Here is what is needed in my opinion.

All Ireland Final day is Senior, Intermediate and Junior finals all played one after each other. Minor final moved to a different date.
6 teams get 83,000 tickets minus say 10,000 for sponsors, players etc etc. So 70k odd tickets/6 = 12k tickets per county
No tickets for every club in Ireland. This has to stop.
TV rights to All Ireland final sold to competing TV channels only on the proviso that they show all 3 games live.
I think team holidays paid for by Croke Park as Mr Brolly suggested I think would also be a good incentive for the 3 winners.

Can you elaborate on that?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on August 03, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

More League to Summer, Give Sam to the winners.
The solution is staring us in the face if only we'd embrace it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 03, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Wouldn't quite put it like that, but you see how in LGFA and Camogie a championship win for Intermediate and Junior Counties with a move up next year motivates the teams. Its like the old days when a club is in the middle of division 2 and persists in entering the Senior Championship as they've always been a senior team, albeit they only won it once 30 years ago. Sometimes decisions have to be taken out of the hands of players and county officials for the good of the game.

It was tongue n cheek. But I agree I think we need 3 levels.

So that'll be say, 10/11 teams in Tier 1?

No doubt a champions league style format for the Championship is coming. So yes, you're right, we need yet more games between Dublin Kerry Mayo and Tyrone every week. We don't get nearly enough of those  ::)
Well is there much point watching Dublin play Leitrim or Wicklow or Kerry play Antrim?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:42:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

More League to Summer, Give Sam to the winners.
The solution is staring us in the face if only we'd embrace it.
League football will never ever replace proper knockout championship.

32 county open draw, first round losers into their own championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 04:59:28 PM
3 Tiers are successfully implemented at club level in every county. Its a big thing to win a junior championship if you happen to play at that level. I have written this before it is all about marketing at county level. Here is what is needed in my opinion.

All Ireland Final day is Senior, Intermediate and Junior finals all played one after each other. Minor final moved to a different date.
6 teams get 83,000 tickets minus say 10,000 for sponsors, players etc etc. So 70k odd tickets/6 = 12k tickets per county
No tickets for every club in Ireland. This has to stop.
TV rights to All Ireland final sold to competing TV channels only on the proviso that they show all 3 games live.
I think team holidays paid for by Croke Park as Mr Brolly suggested I think would also be a good incentive for the 3 winners.

Can you elaborate on that?

Sure, there are a finite amount of tickets for a game in Croke Park. Counties in a tiered competition need to earn the right to get there. It is ridiculous to take a huge proportion of the tickets for that game and give them out to every single club in Ireland at the expense of giving to the counties competing. In my proposal there would be 6 teams competing on the day and those tickets will be needed to in some way satisfy the demand in those counties. Even today, I think it is completely ridiculous that a football club in Cavan say can get tickets to an All Ireland hurling final and people say in Limerick who could be in the final miss out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 05:44:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

Is that what your county do in club football. I assume you have a tiered championship and a tiered league too. Why do you want something different for the Inter County competitions?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 06:00:44 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 05:44:27 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

Is that what your county do in club football. I assume you have a tiered championship and a tiered league too. Why do you want something different for the Inter County competitions?
Club and Inter County is like chalk and cheese.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 06:13:42 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 03, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
We need 3 tiers. Elite, Improving and Muck. 3 Champos. If I was from Louth and Mickey Harte won a Muck Championship with us, I would be delighted.
Wouldn't quite put it like that, but you see how in LGFA and Camogie a championship win for Intermediate and Junior Counties with a move up next year motivates the teams. Its like the old days when a club is in the middle of division 2 and persists in entering the Senior Championship as they've always been a senior team, albeit they only won it once 30 years ago. Sometimes decisions have to be taken out of the hands of players and county officials for the good of the game.

It was tongue n cheek. But I agree I think we need 3 levels.

So that'll be say, 10/11 teams in Tier 1?

No doubt a champions league style format for the Championship is coming. So yes, you're right, we need yet more games between Dublin Kerry Mayo and Tyrone every week. We don't get nearly enough of those  ::)
Well is there much point watching Dublin play Leitrim or Wicklow or Kerry play Antrim?

Dublin and Kerry would beat the other 30 anyway, most of them by a sizeable margin. And even if you keep the provincial championships, they will still continue to beat the other teams by sizeable margins.

The cream usually rise to the top, but not always. We seen last year the upsets that are possible in knockout championship football. 2010 was also a strange year. Kildare/Down could have realistically won Sam that year out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 06:15:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 04:59:28 PM
3 Tiers are successfully implemented at club level in every county. Its a big thing to win a junior championship if you happen to play at that level. I have written this before it is all about marketing at county level. Here is what is needed in my opinion.

All Ireland Final day is Senior, Intermediate and Junior finals all played one after each other. Minor final moved to a different date.
6 teams get 83,000 tickets minus say 10,000 for sponsors, players etc etc. So 70k odd tickets/6 = 12k tickets per county
No tickets for every club in Ireland. This has to stop.
TV rights to All Ireland final sold to competing TV channels only on the proviso that they show all 3 games live.
I think team holidays paid for by Croke Park as Mr Brolly suggested I think would also be a good incentive for the 3 winners.

Can you elaborate on that?

Sure, there are a finite amount of tickets for a game in Croke Park. Counties in a tiered competition need to earn the right to get there. It is ridiculous to take a huge proportion of the tickets for that game and give them out to every single club in Ireland at the expense of giving to the counties competing. In my proposal there would be 6 teams competing on the day and those tickets will be needed to in some way satisfy the demand in those counties. Even today, I think it is completely ridiculous that a football club in Cavan say can get tickets to an All Ireland hurling final and people say in Limerick who could be in the final miss out.

Hard to argue with that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 03, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
So no tickets available to hurlers in Cavan for the final? Christ the night!

Ticket allocation is distributed fairly from Croke to clubs (outside of participating counties) based on player/club numbers.

A hurling only club in the Glens could have 400 plus members, they should just sit at home?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:42:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

More League to Summer, Give Sam to the winners.
The solution is staring us in the face if only we'd embrace it.
League football will never ever replace proper knockout championship.

32 county open draw, first round losers into their own championship.

When oh when will it dawn on the likes of you that current Leitrim being drawn to play current Dublin is a farcical farce of absolute farcity. It's a complete embarrassment for the former and a bye/inconvenience for the latter.

Why anyone conjures up "formats" that enable such scenarios is just beyond me. Beyond me.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
Re All Ireland tickets
How many are unavailable due to 3/5/10 year seats, various other bodies and the Club allocation?
Not many left then leaving a small allocation if 6 teams involved.
Why not have an All Ireland weekend with the Minor, U20 and lower Grade Finals on Saturday with loads of tickets for the 6 Counties involved and reasonably priced so whole families can afford to go?
Big Senior Final on the Sunday and have whatever you want beforehand..  u16s, Bunscoil or whatever.

Some lad earlier saying Club and Inter County are like chalk and cheese.....but obviously not in Hurling, Camogie or Ladies football ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 07:38:08 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:42:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

More League to Summer, Give Sam to the winners.
The solution is staring us in the face if only we'd embrace it.
League football will never ever replace proper knockout championship.

32 county open draw, first round losers into their own championship.

When oh when will it dawn on the likes of you that current Leitrim being drawn to play current Dublin is a farcical farce of absolute farcity. It's a complete embarrassment for the former and a bye/inconvenience for the latter.

Why anyone conjures up "formats" that enable such scenarios is just beyond me. Beyond me.
This way they get their cut at sam maguire and sure always the chance they get a handy draw or 2 and go on a run. Even more interesting would be Kerry drawing Dublin in the first round. The current system of the provincials being linked to the all ireland is a joke. Look at the battles Tyrone had to come through compared to the cake walks for the other 3. (Bar Mayo at times vs Galway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 03, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
So no tickets available to hurlers in Cavan for the final? Christ the night!

Ticket allocation is distributed fairly from Croke to clubs (outside of participating counties) based on player/club numbers.

A hurling only club in the Glens could have 400 plus members, they should just sit at home?

Yes, unless antrim are in the final. Why would a antrim supporter get a ticket to watch say limerick v tipp, when people in those 2 counties can't go. Pure stupid and 100% not fair
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 09:04:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 03, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
Re All Ireland tickets
How many are unavailable due to 3/5/10 year seats, various other bodies and the Club allocation?
Not many left then leaving a small allocation if 6 teams involved.
Why not have an All Ireland weekend with the Minor, U20 and lower Grade Finals on Saturday with loads of tickets for the 6 Counties involved and reasonably priced so whole families can afford to go?
Big Senior Final on the Sunday and have whatever you want beforehand..  u16s, Bunscoil or whatever.

Some lad earlier saying Club and Inter County are like chalk and cheese.....but obviously not in Hurling, Camogie or Ladies football ;)

Maybe, I suppose I don't trust the gaa and its media partners to market it. If they did I'd be happy with what you propose. Yer man earlier made that statement but didn't bother to explain it. We could do worse than just copy ladies lock stock and barrel.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 03, 2021, 09:24:12 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2021, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on August 03, 2021, 05:42:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on August 03, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 03, 2021, 05:10:42 PM
We already have tiers it's called the league. Make the league more important and use the championship as it should be a knock out cup competition whereby underdog stories aren't confined to history.

More League to Summer, Give Sam to the winners.
The solution is staring us in the face if only we'd embrace it.
League football will never ever replace proper knockout championship.

32 county open draw, first round losers into their own championship.

When oh when will it dawn on the likes of you that current Leitrim being drawn to play current Dublin is a farcical farce of absolute farcity. It's a complete embarrassment for the former and a bye/inconvenience for the latter.

Why anyone conjures up "formats" that enable such scenarios is just beyond me. Beyond me.

Clare are an established Div 2 team and Kerry tanked them by 17 points. They would likely be in a Tier 1 championship together. Cork too, and Kerry beat them by 22 points. Donegal beat Down by 16 points, and they'd be in Tier 1 together too. It's not just Dublin v Leitrim where you'd get big defeats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 04, 2021, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 03, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
So no tickets available to hurlers in Cavan for the final? Christ the night!

Ticket allocation is distributed fairly from Croke to clubs (outside of participating counties) based on player/club numbers.

A hurling only club in the Glens could have 400 plus members, they should just sit at home?

Yes, unless antrim are in the final. Why would a antrim supporter get a ticket to watch say limerick v tipp, when people in those 2 counties can't go. Pure stupid and 100% not fair

I've been going to All Ireland finals for the past 30 odd years, right through the whole redevelopment of Croke park to the 80 odd thousand seater it is now, I'm entitled to watch our national games as someone from the teams participating on the day, the allocation is the bare minimum for non competing counties and that's fair enough. I'll accept that there are times I may not get a ticket

What you find a lot of is the bandwagon supporters who wouldn't watch their county team if they lived next door the the county ground, those 'supporters' actually don't deserve a ticket in my opinion.

So to finish, have you been to a final at Croke that didn't involve your county?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 04, 2021, 11:28:59 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 04, 2021, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 03, 2021, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 03, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
So no tickets available to hurlers in Cavan for the final? Christ the night!

Ticket allocation is distributed fairly from Croke to clubs (outside of participating counties) based on player/club numbers.

A hurling only club in the Glens could have 400 plus members, they should just sit at home?

Yes, unless antrim are in the final. Why would a antrim supporter get a ticket to watch say limerick v tipp, when people in those 2 counties can't go. Pure stupid and 100% not fair

I've been going to All Ireland finals for the past 30 odd years, right through the whole redevelopment of Croke park to the 80 odd thousand seater it is now, I'm entitled to watch our national games as someone from the teams participating on the day, the allocation is the bare minimum for non competing counties and that's fair enough. I'll accept that there are times I may not get a ticket

What you find a lot of is the bandwagon supporters who wouldn't watch their county team if they lived next door the the county ground, those 'supporters' actually don't deserve a ticket in my opinion.

So to finish, have you been to a final at Croke that didn't involve your county?

No I haven't. And not having a go at you, but I would personally feel shit to take a ticket from say a Mayo man who might miss a piece of history of his county just so I could go. I had win a ticket once and gave it away. The only all ireland finals I've been to were 2 u21 finals involving cavan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 04, 2021, 11:37:47 PM
I agree with Itchy.

Not nowadays, but for a long time I wouldn't have had to work too hard to secure an AI ticket. But after moving along a couple to better homes (lads from counties competing) I stopped looking. Neutrals should step aside on big occasions. It's not about what the natives have contributed before. It's about what drives them thereafter.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:30:19 AM
Mick Fennelly getting a taste of hurling at the lower levels;;

"I think the Christy Ring, Lory Meagher, Nickey Rackard competitions are kind of being forgotten about and suppressed. Let's be honest about it, the promotion of it is very, very poor. That falls on the GAA and the broadcasting companies. Something has to be done about it. I'm not surprised there are football players concerned about this new tier two competition. I think it's the right thing to do personally speaking but that's from an outside point of view. They are afraid they will be forgotten about, that it will be suppressed, that they will not be on The Sunday Game. The Christy Ring, it might get 10 seconds, 20 seconds — that's no good for kids to be inspired to play for Offaly, they want to be seen on The Sunday Game. They want to see their players or their role models on the TV, on RTÉ, on Sky, on TG4. I don't know, I just feel a lot needs to be done for the promotion of the games. For me it's not working and it's not fit for purpose the way it is."
-Michael Fennelly
✪ (Irish Examiner/August 2021)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 04, 2021, 11:37:47 PM
I agree with Itchy.

Not nowadays, but for a long time I wouldn't have had to work too hard to secure an AI ticket. But after moving along a couple to better homes (lads from counties competing) I stopped looking. Neutrals should step aside on big occasions. It's not about what the natives have contributed before. It's about what drives them thereafter.

Yes to a point I'm not going to argue getting tickets over a loyal supporter, but there are county players the length of the country who give up a lot of their time and effort to play for their county, they shouldnt' get tickets either? Referee's who get abused all summer long shouldn't be entitled to have the opportunity to head to the show piece of the year or county officials?

But bandwagon 'supporters' who way in on the big occasions I've no time for
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:30:19 AM
Mick Fennelly getting a taste of hurling at the lower levels;;

"I think the Christy Ring, Lory Meagher, Nickey Rackard competitions are kind of being forgotten about and suppressed. Let's be honest about it, the promotion of it is very, very poor. That falls on the GAA and the broadcasting companies. Something has to be done about it. I'm not surprised there are football players concerned about this new tier two competition. I think it's the right thing to do personally speaking but that's from an outside point of view. They are afraid they will be forgotten about, that it will be suppressed, that they will not be on The Sunday Game. The Christy Ring, it might get 10 seconds, 20 seconds — that's no good for kids to be inspired to play for Offaly, they want to be seen on The Sunday Game. They want to see their players or their role models on the TV, on RTÉ, on Sky, on TG4. I don't know, I just feel a lot needs to be done for the promotion of the games. For me it's not working and it's not fit for purpose the way it is."
-Michael Fennelly
✪ (Irish Examiner/August 2021)


Thats why i prosposed the 3 finals are on the same day and must be all televised as part of any deal with TV stations. The GAA and TV channels cannot be trusted to do it otherwise.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club

Two ways to look at that, your footballers inspired a group of people to go follow their county - if only they had kept it up maybe you would be the superpower you should be with the population you have. In my club, and i imagine a lot of club, All Ireland tickets are raffled so there is no way to decide if a club active member like those youve described get them or a useless toerag that only is going up for the jolly.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:25:40 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club

Two ways to look at that, your footballers inspired a group of people to go follow their county - if only they had kept it up maybe you would be the superpower you should be with the population you have. In my club, and i imagine a lot of club, All Ireland tickets are raffled so there is no way to decide if a club active member like those youve described get them or a useless toerag that only is going up for the jolly.

We put ours into a draw also, so yes someone who does nothing but pay his membership will get the ticket, but we agreed to that at an AGM and so be it.

We'll never be a superpower unless we have a production line of players coming through, that aint happening
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: thewobbler on August 05, 2021, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:30:19 AM
Mick Fennelly getting a taste of hurling at the lower levels;;

"I think the Christy Ring, Lory Meagher, Nickey Rackard competitions are kind of being forgotten about and suppressed. Let's be honest about it, the promotion of it is very, very poor. That falls on the GAA and the broadcasting companies. Something has to be done about it. I'm not surprised there are football players concerned about this new tier two competition. I think it's the right thing to do personally speaking but that's from an outside point of view. They are afraid they will be forgotten about, that it will be suppressed, that they will not be on The Sunday Game. The Christy Ring, it might get 10 seconds, 20 seconds — that's no good for kids to be inspired to play for Offaly, they want to be seen on The Sunday Game. They want to see their players or their role models on the TV, on RTÉ, on Sky, on TG4. I don't know, I just feel a lot needs to be done for the promotion of the games. For me it's not working and it's not fit for purpose the way it is."
-Michael Fennelly
✪ (Irish Examiner/August 2021)


Thats why i prosposed the 3 finals are on the same day and must be all televised as part of any deal with TV stations. The GAA and TV channels cannot be trusted to do it otherwise.

The problem inherent in this is that the media doesn't actually create a product or get it off the ground: the media simply responds to what is provided. The more a product gains public interest, the more coverage it receives. Don't get me wrong, the two can help each other tremendously. But only if the product is right.

And even if the product is good, it still has to have general public interest. I mean after all, you're asking a national broadcaster to cover an event that might not even hold a regional interest.

Have a look around for public / free to air broadcasters anywhere in the world that gives sufficient coverage of second or third tier grades of a sport. You'll struggle.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club

Two ways to look at that, your footballers inspired a group of people to go follow their county - if only they had kept it up maybe you would be the superpower you should be with the population you have. In my club, and i imagine a lot of club, All Ireland tickets are raffled so there is no way to decide if a club active member like those youve described get them or a useless toerag that only is going up for the jolly.

Why do people volunteer at their club? Is someone just helping out just so they can claim a potential AI ticket? I don't understand why someone would piss and moan about a member who doesn't get involved. If someone helps out, great. If they don't, so be it. But even non-active members are contributing to the club via membership (or lotto, buying tickets, attending matches). People seem to forget that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tintin25 on August 05, 2021, 02:26:40 PM
I'd say there are some folk who easily give their club say £200 - £300 a year through membership fees, club lotto, and other fundraising activities etc.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 02:27:49 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on August 05, 2021, 10:30:19 AM
Mick Fennelly getting a taste of hurling at the lower levels;;

"I think the Christy Ring, Lory Meagher, Nickey Rackard competitions are kind of being forgotten about and suppressed. Let's be honest about it, the promotion of it is very, very poor. That falls on the GAA and the broadcasting companies. Something has to be done about it. I'm not surprised there are football players concerned about this new tier two competition. I think it's the right thing to do personally speaking but that's from an outside point of view. They are afraid they will be forgotten about, that it will be suppressed, that they will not be on The Sunday Game. The Christy Ring, it might get 10 seconds, 20 seconds — that's no good for kids to be inspired to play for Offaly, they want to be seen on The Sunday Game. They want to see their players or their role models on the TV, on RTÉ, on Sky, on TG4. I don't know, I just feel a lot needs to be done for the promotion of the games. For me it's not working and it's not fit for purpose the way it is."
-Michael Fennelly
✪ (Irish Examiner/August 2021)


Thats why i prosposed the 3 finals are on the same day and must be all televised as part of any deal with TV stations. The GAA and TV channels cannot be trusted to do it otherwise.

I should have added that it was a Kilkenny man who relegated those competitions to their current graveyard slots.

In the beginning with the much slated Sean Kelly, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard competition finals were played before the two AI senior semi-finals with the minor semi-finals played at 12.30 the same day.

Along came "hurling man" Nicky Brennan and decided the kilkenny minors were more important than these competitions and moved them to a separate slot and we are where we are.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 02:32:48 PM
Is anyone who played in the recent Ring, Rackard, Meagher Finals complaining?
The Club Leagues in Roscommon get no newspaper coverage and few if any spectators. Yet they continue and lads continue to play in them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club

Two ways to look at that, your footballers inspired a group of people to go follow their county - if only they had kept it up maybe you would be the superpower you should be with the population you have. In my club, and i imagine a lot of club, All Ireland tickets are raffled so there is no way to decide if a club active member like those youve described get them or a useless toerag that only is going up for the jolly.

Why do people volunteer at their club? Is someone just helping out just so they can claim a potential AI ticket? I don't understand why someone would piss and moan about a member who doesn't get involved. If someone helps out, great. If they don't, so be it. But even non-active members are contributing to the club via membership (or lotto, buying tickets, attending matches). People seem to forget that.

You dont have to be a volunteer, you just need to buy a ticket in the raffle in our clubs case. In Milltowns it seems to be a raffle between club members.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 05, 2021, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 02:32:48 PM
Is anyone who played in the recent Ring, Rackard, Meagher Finals complaining?
The Club Leagues in Roscommon get no newspaper coverage and few if any spectators. Yet they continue and lads continue to play in them.

True, but if Roscommon ever suffered and had to enter a tier 2 competition would you be happy if it was 3-15 to 2-18 against a similar level county and not a word on the Sunday Game?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 02:58:59 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 05, 2021, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 02:32:48 PM
Is anyone who played in the recent Ring, Rackard, Meagher Finals complaining?
The Club Leagues in Roscommon get no newspaper coverage and few if any spectators. Yet they continue and lads continue to play in them.

True, but if Roscommon ever suffered and had to enter a tier 2 competition would you be happy if it was 3-15 to 2-18 against a similar level county and not a word on the Sunday Game?

The Sunday game is shit no matter what division you are in. Again, GAA should be doing much more to ensure a quality program. In UK there are shows showing league 1 and 2 games for example on SKY.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 03:19:53 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 05, 2021, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 02:32:48 PM
Is anyone who played in the recent Ring, Rackard, Meagher Finals complaining?
The Club Leagues in Roscommon get no newspaper coverage and few if any spectators. Yet they continue and lads continue to play in them.

True, but if Roscommon ever suffered and had to enter a tier 2 competition would you be happy if it was 3-15 to 2-18 against a similar level county and not a word on the Sunday Game?
I'd be happier if it was 3-15 to 2-17 :D
And fk the Sunday game, I couldn't care less ( but would probably be moaning about it though!):.
Up to the GAA to push the media-- e.g ye must show one lower grade/tier/ whatever for every higher level game te show ....and not on YouTube or streaming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on August 05, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
People keep talking about the sunday game etc etc. I'm from antrim and one of the best things about lockdown has been that I am actually able to watch all the antrim games because streaming services cover that. I never saw a sniff of us on the sunday game and we maybe got a brief mention. Half the country is like that and then some with regard to football. The hurling is probably three quarters. I don't buy the argument of not being seen on the sunday game because it's very very limited how much a lot of teams will ever be seen on a show like that anyway.

RTE isn't great for coverage. TG4 great for underage and lower tiers like this. The reality is the higher tier stuff is better to watch. I would watch antrim all day but take for example this year I wouldn't have been that bothered about watching other division 4 matches. I imagine a lot would be the same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 04:27:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 05, 2021, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 05, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Aren't the majority of crowds at big Championship games bandwagon supporters/ tribalists?
Mind you their €€€€€s are a great help to the GAA coffers.

What I notice when I head down to Croke for the finals is real Gaa supporters from my county, no part time supporters of their club or bandwagoners, county hurlers, ex county hurlers, managers of club teams and committee men/women from the clubs referees and grounds men. We normally all head to one or two different pubs so you know.

The year Antrim got to the Ulster final, everyone and their dog left West Belfast to head to Clones, Id say 45% haven't been to a game since or even associated with a club

Two ways to look at that, your footballers inspired a group of people to go follow their county - if only they had kept it up maybe you would be the superpower you should be with the population you have. In my club, and i imagine a lot of club, All Ireland tickets are raffled so there is no way to decide if a club active member like those youve described get them or a useless toerag that only is going up for the jolly.

Why do people volunteer at their club? Is someone just helping out just so they can claim a potential AI ticket? I don't understand why someone would piss and moan about a member who doesn't get involved. If someone helps out, great. If they don't, so be it. But even non-active members are contributing to the club via membership (or lotto, buying tickets, attending matches). People seem to forget that.

You dont have to be a volunteer, you just need to buy a ticket in the raffle in our clubs case. In Milltowns it seems to be a raffle between club members.

Yeah, and that's fair enough. But my point was about the 'useless toerag' comment. These so called toerags still pay membership, buy lotto etc, and contribute financially to the club. They mightn't cut the grass or wash the jersies, but they're important all the same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on August 05, 2021, 05:47:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 05, 2021, 04:27:08 PM
Yeah, and that's fair enough. But my point was about the 'useless toerag' comment. These so called toerags still pay membership, buy lotto etc, and contribute financially to the club. They mightn't cut the grass or wash the jersies, but they're important all the same.

The ability to attend in person is one of the potential strengths of the GAA in relation to televised sports. Attendance of people who do not normally go should be welcome and if they take their children along then that can contribute to the growth of the GAA. Turning events into an inner circle only operation is not in the interests of the GAA. It is in the interests of the GAA to be seen to represent the community at large, whether club or country, and not just the traditional clan.
If people from all over the country want to meet and go to the pub then some other occasion should be designed for this,
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ck on August 18, 2021, 09:28:22 AM
Sligo were withdrawn from the C'ship due to Covid. Tyrone got 2 extra weeks to play.

This tells you how the GAA will treat the 2nd tier counties!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.

One rule for Sligo, another for Tyrone is my point. It's an insight as to how the GAA will treat a 2nd tier C'ship
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on August 18, 2021, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.

One rule for Sligo, another for Tyrone is my point. It's an insight as to how the GAA will treat a 2nd tier C'ship

Sligo couldn't fill a fixture and delaying the cam would have meant re-arranging fixtures for multiple counties and their wasn't a date in the calendar available to reschedule the game for. The GAA offered an additional week to Tyrone as it only affected two teams and their was an available date. Only for Kerry offering to change the date of the game Tyrone wouldn't be playing in the semi final either, so to say the GAA are being consistent in fairness
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:44:43 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on August 18, 2021, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.

One rule for Sligo, another for Tyrone is my point. It's an insight as to how the GAA will treat a 2nd tier C'ship

Sligo couldn't fill a fixture and delaying the cam would have meant re-arranging fixtures for multiple counties and their wasn't a date in the calendar available to reschedule the game for. The GAA offered an additional week to Tyrone as it only affected two teams and their was an available date. Only for Kerry offering to change the date of the game Tyrone wouldn't be playing in the semi final either, so to say the GAA are being consistent in fairness

Yes there are a number of dimensions to it but the bottom line is that there was little effort made to accommodate Sligo. In fact there was none. Sure it's only Sligo.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on August 18, 2021, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:44:43 AM
Yes there are a number of dimensions to it but the bottom line is that there was little effort made to accommodate Sligo. In fact there was none. Sure it's only Sligo.

Were Sligo and Tyrone at the same point in the competition? If not, then you cannot say that the name of the county was the main point.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 11:32:52 AM
Quote from: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.

It's an insight as to how the GAA will treat a 2nd tier C'ship

That they won't let Sligo play in it??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Applesisapples on August 18, 2021, 11:59:18 AM
As an Armagh man, I'd like to say that the GAA got it right allowing Tyrone the time to recover. We are operating in extraordinary times, presumably the evidence viewed by the GAA showed that the out break was through no fault of the county structures or the players. to have a less than fit Tyrone going up against Kerry would have devalued both the GAA and the competition for the winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 18, 2021, 11:07:47 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on August 18, 2021, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: ck on August 18, 2021, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 18, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Sligo were entering the single tier Connacht Championship.

One rule for Sligo, another for Tyrone is my point. It's an insight as to how the GAA will treat a 2nd tier C'ship

Sligo couldn't fill a fixture and delaying the cam would have meant re-arranging fixtures for multiple counties and their wasn't a date in the calendar available to reschedule the game for. The GAA offered an additional week to Tyrone as it only affected two teams and their was an available date. Only for Kerry offering to change the date of the game Tyrone wouldn't be playing in the semi final either, so to say the GAA are being consistent in fairness
There was two weeks between the semi-final and final last year. Could have played it a week later and Galway wouldn't even have needed to go full tilt as they were going to trounce us anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on August 19, 2021, 09:27:31 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 18, 2021, 11:59:18 AM
As an Armagh man, I'd like to say that the GAA got it right allowing Tyrone the time to recover. We are operating in extraordinary times, presumably the evidence viewed by the GAA showed that the out break was through no fault of the county structures or the players. to have a less than fit Tyrone going up against Kerry would have devalued both the GAA and the competition for the winners.
Yep, exactly.

For the Sligo position, to properly analyze it you'd need to go back and see what the knowns and unknowns were at that time, what the risks appeared to be, what Sligo said and what the GAA said, to determine if the decision was right and fair, or not. 

However, whether it was right or wrong should not influence on the decision to award extra time to allow Tyrone play in an All Ireland semi final. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on August 19, 2021, 09:59:07 AM
There was a tweet from one of the fermanagh corrigan's about fermanagh not getting play whatever game they couldn't and saying that no matter about that two wrongs don't make a right and tyrone should be allowed to play the game. I thought that was quite gracious - and correct.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on August 19, 2021, 10:01:56 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 19, 2021, 09:59:07 AM
There was a tweet from one of the fermanagh corrigan's about fermanagh not getting play whatever game they couldn't and saying that no matter about that two wrongs don't make a right and tyrone should be allowed to play the game. I thought that was quite gracious - and correct.
Absolutely.