Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[Armagh18]

I don't see what the outrage is regarding the Cavan junior champions being in division 1. League and championship shouldn't be linked as far I'm concerned.
Armagh this year is the perfect example of why they shouldn't be linked.
Look at the Armagh senior championship this year - 16 teams entering into a group stage, seeded based on league positions. So a small club like Shane O'Neills are missing their 3 county players for 90% of their league games, come bottom of division 1b and get punished by a being a bottom seed in the senior championship.
Cullyhanna are another example of the problems caused by linking both - they get relegated in the league in 2022 as they have 3 or 4 players away with the county team. As a result they also move down championship and walk to an intermediate championship in 2023. The Cavan system seems to be much fairer than this.

WTF are you on about?

How were Shane's being punished?

They won Intermediate league & championship double last year ffs! Why wouldn't they be fit to give senior a rattle?

They didn't exactly disgrace themselves either - pretty sure they beat this years senior finalists in the league and and were only beaten by the semi finalists by a point in the groups. They'll be one of the favourites for the Intermediate title in 2024.

They won the league at a canter (mainly without county men) and were full value for their championship win although they got the rub of the green in the final. They'd been knocking at the door for a few years and were ready to go up.

A combination of losing county men for the league; retirements and lads going travelling meant they went down this year. Any normal sport if you win the lower level competition you enter the next level the following year. Not sure why thats such an alien concept

[Dreadnought]

I don't see what the outrage is regarding the Cavan junior champions being in division 1. League and championship shouldn't be linked as far I'm concerned.
Armagh this year is the perfect example of why they shouldn't be linked.
Look at the Armagh senior championship this year - 16 teams entering into a group stage, seeded based on league positions. So a small club like Shane O'Neills are missing their 3 county players for 90% of their league games, come bottom of division 1b and get punished by a being a bottom seed in the senior championship.
Cullyhanna are another example of the problems caused by linking both - they get relegated in the league in 2022 as they have 3 or 4 players away with the county team. As a result they also move down championship and walk to an intermediate championship in 2023. The Cavan system seems to be much fairer than this.

Read that back to yourself a couple of times

And survived with 2 wins out of 12, bottom of the table, and won a relegation playoff with an ambush. They're simply not a Senior level club.

The fact they got relegated from intermediate in 2021 and lost the Junior final last year tells you all as to their actual level at Championship time when all have county players back. Read that back to yourself too

Those words will be comforting to the Cavan junior clubs and Ballymaguigan so far.

Literally a Junior club until they won the final pal, don't know what you want me to say. Some anomalous circumstances, sure, but Junior regardless. The team who beat them in the Junior final last year lost in Ulster...

[Wildweasel74]

Here Derry used to be 16 league team set up for both Senior and Intermediate. Teams wanted to be at that level, sure in Derry teams fought in the boardroom to stay up, when they should been put down. Been some craic telling them you can play senior league but enter Junior championship. The clubs simply wouldn't do it.

[onefineday]

No promotion re championship in Derry this year. Ballymaguigan and Glenullin back to back winners

Its in the official guide that you are automatically promoted via Champ win and if that isn't the case in Derry its a) f**king embarrassing and b) against the rule, but mainly (a). Major red flag that a club has no ambition if they accept another year at the lower level

If memory serves me, glenullin first dropped to div 2 in the mid 2010's and in what was a first for Derry football, demanded to retain senior championship status when they would probably have had an excellent chance of progessing through Ulster and maybe beyond at intermediate level.

[onefineday]

Derry are in the middle of a league and championship restructure that will take a couple of years to work itself out.

Moving from a 14 team senior and intermediate championship to 12 senior and intermediate championship and breaking the link from league and championship.

2 teams being relegated from grade above with no promotion this year. From 2024, it will be 1 up and 1 down. Glenullin are staying intermediate next year but are being joined by Ballinderry and Coleraine.

They were hoping to get it done last year but clubs objected when they realised they were in relegation bother.

What's the rationale behind these changes Jimmy?
Are we going the cavan route, league has no bearing on championship?
My ideal would have been keep it at 16 each and enforce the link between championship and league. 2 teams up and down each year, 1 team via league, 1 team via championship.

[Wildweasel74]

They still had the 2 Bradleys, G O'Kane, B Mullan, at that stage, would been very strong for that level but again weren't strong enough to win the senior championship.

[Jimmy]

Derry are in the middle of a league and championship restructure that will take a couple of years to work itself out.

Moving from a 14 team senior and intermediate championship to 12 senior and intermediate championship and breaking the link from league and championship.

2 teams being relegated from grade above with no promotion this year. From 2024, it will be 1 up and 1 down. Glenullin are staying intermediate next year but are being joined by Ballinderry and Coleraine.

They were hoping to get it done last year but clubs objected when they realised they were in relegation bother.

What's the rationale behind these changes Jimmy?
Are we going the cavan route, league has no bearing on championship?
My ideal would have been keep it at 16 each and enforce the link between championship and league. 2 teams up and down each year, 1 team via league, 1 team via championship.

Couple of things came into to play but ultimately the main goal was to raise standards in intermediate and junior football. In a 16 team league you have a few going for 1st spot and 3/4 teams trying to avoid relegation and a lot in the middle just playing out games. Whereas a 12 team league would have more games with teams trying to win a league or avoid relegation.

You also have teams 13/14/15/16 along with the top 3/4 teams in old division 2 should make a fairly competitive league. In the old 16 team system when it came to championship, realistically teams 13/14/15/16 were never a factor, unless they happened to draw one another. I don't think the goal was to get better teams in the provincial intermediate and junior competitions, but is undoubtedly a by-product of the changes.

The split season also complicated matters. Even if Derry have an awful year, in the new system they will still be playing in June and clubs are unlikely to have access to county players. County players played no league games at all this year. Add in county under 20 and hurling, that's 4 panels of players that weren't available to clubs at a stage.

Senior hurlers got to Christy Ring final which was in June, under 20 footballers got to ulster final in May I think, and under 20 hurlers won the all Ireland B competition. All teams that have to be catered for and players that were unavailable to clubs in early part of year. It was no coincidence that bottom 5 clubs in early stages of league were all dual clubs at a stage. So I think breaking the link between league and championship is a fair enough move.

There was also time factor. Getting to 12 team division 1 and 2 had been on the cards for a while and it's quicker to run off a 12 team league rather than a 16 team league. But then changes to inter county season meant the expansion of group based championships so probably not that big a factor now.

[Truth hurts]

Is Ballinderry definitely intermediate grade next season?

[ranch]

My point about Shane's being punished this year isn't that they're in the senior championship. It's that they miss their county players throughout the league, but come championship time they're punished by being seeded based on league position. It's ridiculous.

Down, who people like to claim have the fairest system, have also moved away from linking league and championship and are now using relegation playoffs for championship too. Bosco for example were in intermediate but also div 4 this year, whereas Drumaness were div 3 but won the junior.

[Jimmy]

Is Ballinderry definitely intermediate grade next season?

Ballinderry will be intermediate championship and division 1 league next year assuming all league changes stay in place.

[Saffron_sam20]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

[ClubScene13]

Here Derry used to be 16 league team set up for both Senior and Intermediate. Teams wanted to be at that level, sure in Derry teams fought in the boardroom to stay up, when they should been put down. Been some craic telling them you can play senior league but enter Junior championship. The clubs simply wouldn't do it.

And your proud of this? What's went on in Derry the last 2 or 3 years has been shambolic. Genuinely laughable. A complete and utter mess. Glenullin going for 3 in a row intermediate next year would that be correct?

[Lucifer]

My point about Shane's being punished this year isn't that they're in the senior championship. It's that they miss their county players throughout the league, but come championship time they're punished by being seeded based on league position. It's ridiculous.

Down, who people like to claim have the fairest system, have also moved away from linking league and championship and are now using relegation playoffs for championship too. Bosco for example were in intermediate but also div 4 this year, whereas Drumaness were div 3 but won the junior.

I had understood the point you were making Ranch and it is an entirely fair point.  A lot of leagues across the country are played without county players, or at least at various stages of the year.  Meanwhile Championships will virtually always have teams at their strongest, now which seems more logical to base gradings on?  The weaker league teams or the stronger Championship?

It's obviously not as simple as that, but most of you are allowing the rare confluence of events that led Arva to be a Div 1 team and at Junior Championship level to base your opinions off.  However if we were to thoroughly examine Championships based off leagues, would we find certain clubs with no (or few) county players who are arguably playing at a Championship grade beyond them? 

In Fermanagh we have a similar system to Cavan and this rare event has never occurred.  However a team who one year is not good enough to win the Junior Championship within their own County is then deemed to be too strong for the Provincial Championship one  year later?  Bear in mind that the team that won that Championship (Drumlane) didn't even win the Provincial Championship.  It wasn't an issue last year but now once they have improved as a team, it is a problem.  Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to play their returning players from emigration or lads back from injuries which will have them back at the level people seemingly want for the grade .  No grading system will be perfect and on rare occasions teams will end up being very strong at their grade, or very weak, which will be more down to the personal circumstances of the team than whether it is Championship or League based relegation/promotion. 

[DownFanatic]

When you strip it all back, the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions aren't really fit for purpose. The sentiment at the time of their creation was in the right spirit. But when you look at it, both competitions operate on a skewed playing field. There are huge disparities in how counties run their internal competitions.

[Lucifer]

When you strip it all back, the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions aren't really fit for purpose. The sentiment at the time of their creation was in the right spirit. But when you look at it, both competitions operate on a skewed playing field. There are huge disparities in how counties run their internal competitions.

There's no doubt it is a skewed playing field, but I'm not even sure if everyone applied the same rules across the board would the playing field really level out at Provincial level given the disparity in the number of clubs between each county.  It would nearly need an individual directive within each county, is that realistic?  I don't think it is, but there should be some attempt to reduce the anomalies that can occur. 

I still believe they are both good competitions even if they can be skewed at times.