Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[Evil Genius]

Anyone who has a position of  "We cannot do away with 1 million Unionists in the North" is deluded. Deluded to think it was ever the position of anyone and deluded to think it ever will be.

A united Ireland s Organic and will probably come to pass. Republicanism and Unionism is not the problem. The problem is Nationalism!!! Republicanism and Unionism are Political ideals while Nationalism is a tool of control. Nationalism is more divisive here than religion. It will always be as long as we buy in to the patriotic bullshit we are brain washed in. Nationalism is a tool of war appealing to the emotion of the most vulnerable (most stupid) in society in order to keep us loyal to one or another. The 'them and us" mentality of the British and Irish Nationalism was clear to see with the Loyalist mobs yesterday. Those Loyalists were covered in their UJs and British symbolism looking for a confrontation with people they expected to be Irish Nationals and were disappointed when they were meet with Republicans. While all the flagless and colourless Unionists were in the city centre having a nice day the most vulnerable (and stupid) of brain washed British Nationalists were trowing bottles and singing sectarian songs. Republicanism and Nationalism need to be separated as widely as possible for Republicanism to show its true potentail.

Whilst I would hardly agree with your characterisation of yesterday's events(!), I will run with your general thesis, and put this back to you. If for the sake of argument we remove the trappings of Nationalism, both British and Irish, from the debate, so that we are left with pure versions of Republicanism and Unionism to battle for the hearts and minds of the people of Ireland, you appear to assume that a United Ireland would (probably) come to pass, almost as if it were pre-ordained. Which would imply that Republicanism must in some way be more inherently attractive than Unionism; or that Unionists in some way lack fully critical faculties, so that they have almost been "brainwashed" into taking their stance.

Well I've news for you. Unionism does not exist merely as a riposte to Irish Nationalism, so that if Irish Nationalism were to be removed, then Unionism would suddenly evaporate before our eyes. Nor is Unionism something which has been imposed upon us by our Masters in England etc. In fact, Unionism has been a proud, principled and legitmate political movement in Ireland for every bit as long as Republicanism. Consequently, it will not be enough for the latter to clear away the offensive or threatening trappings of Irish Nationalism, put on its best suit and tie, present us with a fresh bunch of flowers and quote a few of Yeats's more lyrical verses, for our Unionist Heart to melt.

For Unionsim has its own coherence and attractions, dearly held by its adherents and not to be forsaken lightly.

Which brings us right back to yesterday's parade. One of (the?) chief attractions of Unionism is that it allows us to take our place in the United Kingdom, alongside our British brothers and sisters. As such, there can be few, if any, more powerful affirmations of this than that demonstrated by voluntary enlistment in a (common) British Army, allowing us to serve Queen and Country as our ancestors have done for centuries before, from Normandy to the Somme, to Waterloo and beyond. Which is why, when Republicans and Nationalists determined to attach a greater meaning upon the parade, it became for Unionists so much more than merely a chance to welcome home our fathers, sons and brothers home from the latest conflict. Rather, that parade became a representation of an entire people, indeed, a people "whose day had come" (if I may borrow an apposite phrase!)

Faugh a Ballagh!

[delboy]

I thought we'd had an end to this nonsense when Sammy left. Let's get something clear, there are not nor have there ever been a million unionists in the six counties.

2005 election
Combined unionist (DUP, UUP, Alliance, Conservatives) vote: 400,179

Currently between 8%-12% of these unionists would need to change their voting preference now to trigger an UI or if we leave it a few years about 5%. Not an unrealistic target and the reason why unionist political parties will do their damnedest to stoke the tribal/sectarian fires for as long as possible.

Sinn fein seem to be doing a damn fine job of helping to this end.

[thejuice]

"The day will come when we fight them, today is not that day"  - A line from Brian Leeson's speech yesterday,

perhaps I've taken that out of context but that sounds chilling, I hope we're not meant to take that on face value.

[delboy]

I don't buy this either. If you consider that the majorty of people in the UK and the USA are against the current war in Iraq then I don't believe that this protest could have a negative effect on 95% of unionists. Surely, within Unionism, there is a large amount of people who are against the war in Iraq.

You miss one very important part of the equation, yes lots of people in the UK and USA are against the war but almost all are in favour of the troops and thats a very important disctinction.
Yesterdays protests would be construed as anti-troops and therefore not very popular to say the least.

[red hander]

Anyone who has a position of  "We cannot do away with 1 million Unionists in the North" is deluded. Deluded to think it was ever the position of anyone and deluded to think it ever will be.

A united Ireland s Organic and will probably come to pass. Republicanism and Unionism is not the problem. The problem is Nationalism!!! Republicanism and Unionism are Political ideals while Nationalism is a tool of control. Nationalism is more divisive here than religion. It will always be as long as we buy in to the patriotic bullshit we are brain washed in. Nationalism is a tool of war appealing to the emotion of the most vulnerable (most stupid) in society in order to keep us loyal to one or another. The 'them and us" mentality of the British and Irish Nationalism was clear to see with the Loyalist mobs yesterday. Those Loyalists were covered in their UJs and British symbolism looking for a confrontation with people they expected to be Irish Nationals and were disappointed when they were meet with Republicans. While all the flagless and colourless Unionists were in the city centre having a nice day the most vulnerable (and stupid) of brain washed British Nationalists were trowing bottles and singing sectarian songs. Republicanism and Nationalism need to be separated as widely as possible for Republicanism to show its true potentail.

Whilst I would hardly agree with your characterisation of yesterday's events(!), I will run with your general thesis, and put this back to you. If for the sake of argument we remove the trappings of Nationalism, both British and Irish, from the debate, so that we are left with pure versions of Republicanism and Unionism to battle for the hearts and minds of the people of Ireland, you appear to assume that a United Ireland would (probably) come to pass, almost as if it were pre-ordained. Which would imply that Republicanism must in some way be more inherently attractive than Unionism; or that Unionists in some way lack fully critical faculties, so that they have almost been "brainwashed" into taking their stance.

Well I've news for you. Unionism does not exist merely as a riposte to Irish Nationalism, so that if Irish Nationalism were to be removed, then Unionism would suddenly evaporate before our eyes. Nor is Unionism something which has been imposed upon us by our Masters in England etc. In fact, Unionism has been a proud, principled and legitmate political movement in Ireland for every bit as long as Republicanism. Consequently, it will not be enough for the latter to clear away the offensive or threatening trappings of Irish Nationalism, put on its best suit and tie, present us with a fresh bunch of flowers and quote a few of Yeats's more lyrical verses, for our Unionist Heart to melt.

For Unionsim has its own coherence and attractions, dearly held by its adherents and not to be forsaken lightly.

Which brings us right back to yesterday's parade. One of (the?) chief attractions of Unionism is that it allows us to take our place in the United Kingdom, alongside our British brothers and sisters. As such, there can be few, if any, more powerful affirmations of this than that demonstrated by voluntary enlistment in a (common) British Army, allowing us to serve Queen and Country as our ancestors have done for centuries before, from Normandy to the Somme, to Waterloo and beyond. Which is why, when Republicans and Nationalists determined to attach a greater meaning upon the parade, it became for Unionists so much more than merely a chance to welcome home our fathers, sons and brothers home from the latest conflict. Rather, that parade became a representation of an entire people, indeed, a people "whose day had come" (if I may borrow an apposite phrase!)

Faugh a Ballagh!

An alternative view would be that it was the dying, damp squib of loyalism waving wee union jacks at £180 a week Taliban and al-Qaida cannonfodder who are too thick to get a job doing anything else but dying for some parasite in buck house.  unionism has never been a proud, principled and legitimate movement in ireland ... unionism has been all about keeping the native Irish people down by violent and political means, an aparthied system practised by foreigners who always thought they were superior to the people they attempted to control ... but who never for a second of this centuries-long domination accepted that control, despite being labelled 'terrorists'  ... and talking of being deluded, if you think your british brothers and sisters give a flying fiddler's f**k about the scarf-wearing scum on the scaffodling yesterday, who were the REAL representation of an entire people ... now, go and swig a bottle of gaviscon, i'm sure you're suffering severe indigestion after swallowing that oxford english dictionary

[Evil Genius]

The protest was against actions carried out by these people not about where they are from.

Really? I listened to the 15 minute speech at the barricade yesterday by Brian Leeson of eirige on YouTube, and there was no mention e.g. of the rights of the people of Helmand Province that I heard. Rather, it was all about "undying resistance", "getting the Brits Out" and the maintenance of "physical force" to establish the "United Irish Republic our fathers and forefathers fought and died for blah, blah, blah"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1072306004065845106&ei=RhgOSfGaBoT22gLn4u3BBQ&q=eirigi

P.S. On a lighter note, in observing the way Leeson continually had to stop, even sometimes mid-sentence, to suck in breath, chew his tongue and find his place on the page again etc, was anyone else reminded of that glorious episode where Alan Partridge had to give a speech to a Conference of Heating Engineers? Perhaps Leeson had impaled his foot on a British spike? Hilarious.  
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqa11NCbmA&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ytDCZS9oM&feature=related

[Zapatista]

ETG, you completely wasted that post on me

Either you miss my point entirely or you are an example of my point.

Your ramble is not the Unionism I was holding separate as a political ideal but a Unionism steeped in Nationalism. Your longings to be connected with your British brothers and sisters and your place in the UK is entirely a product of British Nationalism and no more than an emotion rather than a political ideal. It is of no realistic benefit to anyone other than someone who is politically attached to the UK. Then your heavy Nationalism can be tapped into to serve the political needs of those politically attached to the UK. You are merely a tool at the whim of British politicians who attach a Union Jack to anything which is wrong but needs support. The faithfull British Nationalist will jump to support the cause and the true meaning of the Union Jack and the Queen, God save her. Ireland boast these robots too.

Unionism as a political ideal is at home in Ireland. Political Unionism and Republicanism are not connected to Nationalism. Political Unionism and Republicanism tap into the resourceful emotion of Nationalism to gain support and justify their actions in the view of many.

Unionism is an ideal whereas we (they) are better placed if a Union is maintained with Britain which is a monarchy. Republicanism is an ideal were no one is born with a title and political leaders and heads of state are elected (as is the Republic oI). Two political ideals not connected to Nationalism.

I did not say Unionism would dissapear in a UI. You seem overly defencive there
There was a united Ireland before which was not a Republic but there were Republicans in that UI. The Rep. o Ire is a Republic yet it has some Unionists among it's citizens. I am not naive enough to think a UI will bring an end to Unionism I just believe an end to Nationalism will bring a UI, and a Republic.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Which brings us right back to yesterday's parade. One of (the?) chief attractions of Unionism is that it allows us to take our place in the United Kingdom, alongside our British brothers and sisters.

In that case, you could have no possible objection to a referendum on the north's position within the 'United' Kingdom been held on an all-UK basis, given that they're your "brothers and sisters", or could you?

[Tonto]

Unionism as a political ideal is at home in Ireland. Political Unionism and Republicanism are not connected to Nationalism. Political Unionism and Republicanism tap into the resourceful emotion of Nationalism to gain support and justify their actions in the view of many.

Unionism is an ideal whereas we (they) are better placed if a Union is maintained with Britain which is a monarchy. Republicanism is an ideal were no one is born with a title and political leaders and heads of state are elected (as is the Republic oI). Two political ideals not connected to Nationalism.

I did not say Unionism would dissapear in a UI. You seem overly defencive there
There was a united Ireland before which was not a Republic but there were Republicans in that UI. The Rep. o Ire is a Republic yet it has some Unionists among it's citizens. I am not naive enough to think a UI will bring an end to Unionism I just believe an end to Nationalism will bring a UI, and a Republic.

So...... if that's all 'republicans' are concerned about, if British republicanism won the day and created the 'United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', would republicanism in Northern Ireland cease to exist?  Would it have to find a new name for itself?

[Evil Genius]

I thought we'd had an end to this nonsense when Sammy left. Let's get something clear, there are not nor have there ever been a million unionists in the six counties.

2005 election
Combined unionist (DUP, UUP, Alliance, Conservatives) vote: 400,179

Taking your figures from the 2005 Election, 400,179 amounts to 55.77% of the turnout:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/rw2005.htm
Therefore, we may conclude that 55.77% of the population of NI is Unionist. The nearest reliable population figure I can get for 2005 is (an estimated) 1,741,600 in 2006:
http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-dfp/news-dfp-february-2008/news-dfp-280208-overall-population-growth.htm
And 55.77% of 1,741,600 works out at 971,290.
Fair enough, if you want to make a liar out of me for 28,710 people then go ahead, knock yourself out...

P.S. I'd enjoy your little victory whilst you can, for as the NIO points out "...The population of Northern Ireland is projected to increase by seventy thousand people (4%) over the five years from 2006 to 2011". With 55.77% of 70,000 amounting to 39,039, I'd say Unionism will hit the million mark some time towards the end of next year, or early 2010!  

Currently between 8%-12% of these unionists would need to change their voting preference now to trigger an UI or if we leave it a few years about 5%.

That would only work if the Nationalist vote remains solid. You appear not to accept the possibility that Nationalists might be just as easily persuaded to change their voting preference as Unionists.

Not an unrealistic target and the reason why unionist political parties will do their damnedest to stoke the tribal/sectarian fires for as long as possible.

I daresay some Unionists/Loyalists will attempt to maintain the vote along tribal/sectarian lines, just as their counterparts within Nationalism/Republicanism will do likewise. However, just as the more perceptive and far-sighted Nationalists (at least) appreciate that their quickest hope towards a UI is to persuade Unionists to switch, so do the more perceptive and far-sighted of those in Unionism appreciate that their best hope lies within persuading Nationalists to switch.

On which latter point, now that the Border is an evermore less important issue for ordinary people in NI, then I suspect that "normal" politics such as health, jobs and education etc will assume greater significance in determining how people vote. And these issues are inevitably both an engine of, and a product of, our wider economic prospects*, I feel that remaining within the United Kingdom will offer greater security than joining the (ailing) Celtic Tiger to our South, at least for the next decade or so.

Which is why it is actually in the interests of Republicans like SF and Eirige to keep the pot boiling over the Border Question as much as possible. Hence their need to come out onto the streets of Belfast yesterday to be "offended", when any normal person will have pulled the duvet over his head and copped an extra hour's kip on a Sunday morning...



* - Was it Bill Clinton who proclaimed: "It's the Economy, Stupid!"?

[5iveTimes]

There are many better, more experienced and more intelligent men then you who have chosen to continue the struggle and improve things for out people (in both jurisdictions) by whatever means suit the times.

Donagh you are really outdoing yourself this time. Continue what struggle? Sitting in Stormont drinking tea with Peter Robinson and Reg Empty is in no way a continuing a struggle. The 1994 ceasefire was the unconditional surrender of the IRA. Sinn Fein taking their seats in Stormont was the final nail in the coffin. They are administering British rule in the North and the only thing more pathetic than that is the fact that you are in denial.
You spoke of a man who was imprisoned in every decade from the 40s to the 80s, is it any wonder we lost with volunteers of that caliber. Then again the people he trusted were probably working for the other side. Its not as if you arent riddled with informers now is it?   How is Scap keeping these days?  I believe he has a lovely little villa in Tuscany, I wonder who paid for that? Then again, where did the money for all those holiday homes in Donegal come from? Maybe Donaldson couldnt keep up his repayments  

[Evil Genius]

No-one, but the mindless few EG, want to drive the million or so Unionists off the island. They'd hope to show that a United Ireland is beneficial to the Unionist community, as well as the Nationalist / Republican community.

When I hear what SF and Eirige etc were saying yesterday, I saw absolutely no benefit for the Unionist community in their manifesto - quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyhow, I suppose I should qualify my "drive a million Unionists off the island" remark to "accept a United Ireland on our terms, or clear off", which was effectively the choice offered to those Unionists who were caught on the Southern side of the Border in 1921. And as we've seen that population decline from something over 10% then, to less than 3% now (or "Statistically Insignificant", as the demographers call it), that choice is hardly very appealing.

P.S. I don't imagine for one moment imagine that the modern Irish Republic of 2008 is anything like the Free State of 1921 when I say that. But if there is even a 1% chance that our joining a UI would deliver us into the hands of the likes of Brian Leeson or Gerry Adams, then it will be a Cold Day in Hell before any Unionist will take that risk.    

[Maguire01]

On topic, good too see the protests held in a dignified manner.

When I was talking to the local protesters afterwards they said there is no credit in behaving in a dignified manner. It should be expected by everyone and it was expected by those locals in attendance. I think much of this false credit comes from RTE reports of nothing over 10 years.

I'd agree 100%. You shouldn't get a gold star for not being a thug - it should be the minimum standard of conduct.

[Maguire01]

After all, if large numbers of Nationalists were not prepared to get out of bed on Sunday morning in order to be "offended", who's to say they'll all stride out on some future Thursday to a Polling Station, so as to be "liberated" via the stroke of a pencil?

I think the rest of us would see that as a sign of community confidence rather than what happened in the unionist community who had to rely on the mobilsation of the worst of the loyalist gangsters, lumpenproletariat and armed paramilitaries in order to secure a march for a few dozen wee lads in funny suits.

Does that mean that those who did turn out to protest don't share the confidence of the wider Nationalist Community?

[Zapatista]

So...... if that's all 'republicans' are concerned about, if British republicanism won the day and created the 'United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', would republicanism in Northern Ireland cease to exist?  Would it have to find a new name for itself?

It would not cease to exist anyway, how could you run a Republic without Republicans? Irish Nationalism would probably raise it's ugly head to take the lead in the call for a UI. There are Republicans who are also Nationalists and the over lap would prob keep the issue of a UI high on the agenda.

There would still be Unionists and Irish Nationalists and the issue of cultural and ethnic unity among the Irish people.