Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[Rav67]

5ive times you really are a clueless sc**bag!

[pintsofguinness]

Careful you dont upset 5ivetimes, he's been know to...shall we say, overreact.

[Aoise]

I can't believe some of the stuff I've been reading on this thread.  All I can say is that those of you who felt that a protest shouldn't have happened today have never lost a loved one or family member through the hands of the British army, who lets not forget had the seal of approval and the weaponry handed down from a state government to murder and maim the people who share the same constitution as their own.

I too felt at the beginning that maybe the best policy would be to ignore the parade as undoubtedly it was proposed as a means of provocation.  But as I thought more on it, I realised that I ws being sucked in to exactly what the DUP are hoping Nationalists will feel.  All you had to do was listen to the DUP conference.  These bunch of idiots still use words such as "control" and "power" when they speak of the politics their involved in.  30 years taught them nothing and sometimes I wonder what we as Irish people collectively learned from it.  If the ku Klux Klan wanted to walk throught he streets of Alabama or if the Nazi's demanded the right to march through Warsaw, there would be global outcry, but for our victims, ah sure just put up and shut up.  If the last 30 years has taught me anything as an Irish person, it has been to be respectful of others and proud to be what I am.  I wouldn't feel it to be right for the IRA to receive a state military procession through Belfast, but I do, as an equal citizen, expect the respect shown to my community and it wasn't.

I was proud of Sinn Fein today and proud of the victims who held themselves with such dignity - I am proud to be Irish and I no longer have to be "controlled" by fascist unionists, however if our own people don't reaalise this, hen we're just giving them ammunition for another 30 years of "control" its our choice!!!

[5iveTimes]

Donagh it appears that all the bitterness on this thread is coming from you, after all you started another sectarian thread not me. I dont give a toss who marches where, as long as they dont annoy me or my family. Unlike yourself, I`m not a tea boy or a paper seller, I actually spent a few years behind bars, another member of my family served 14 years and a member of my mothers family was killed on active service. What we all have to realise is that the day the first pound was diverted from the military campaign to Sinn Fein we lost. If you read Eamon Collins` book, he said something similar. He also sums up your old mate Gerry very very well. Adams has led Republicanism into a cul-de-sac and because the IRA have been dismantled and disarmed they have no way out. So what we have is a stalemate, in reality Unionism has won and no matter how you dress it up our side has lost.  The IRA completed the final act of surrender when it decomissioned the last of its arms, it seems that decomissioning is a nice way of saying surrender.
For anyone wanting to know what we should do, I dont have the answers. Maybe we should try to get on with our neighbours as best we can. let them parade all they want, to me they look pathetic, but unless they parade past Faughart Shrine they wont annoy me. The border is here to stay, no matter what way Sinn Fein dress it up. An old friend of mine* used to say, "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Its very true. Sinn Fein are being paid very well to run Northern Ireland by the British Government. They have thrown the dolly out of the pram over policing and justice, but they will be back round the table with the DUP once Gordon Brown has time to deal with them.  Out in the real world, real politicians are dealing with an economic crisis. Jobs are being lost, the cost of living is effecting more and more, but that doesnt concern too many in Stormont. As long as themmuns aren`t getting anything thats all that matters up there.
Build a bridge and move on Donagh, the rest of us have. Maybe its hard for those at the bottom to see what those at the top have done to you.

* edited to add that that old friend of mine is no longer with us, he was murdered by the IRA as he was seen as a threat to the peace process. He was a great lad when he was doing their dirty work, but after the ceasefires of 94 and 96 he was persona non grata.

[delboy]

Well as far as i can see if this was a coat-trailing exercise then sinn fein stepped on it.

Perhaps the army should drop their adverts on TV and pay sinn fein to picket recruitment offices, on yesterdays evidence it would have people flocking to sign up.

[Orior]

5ive times, I cant work out whether:

a) you've surrendered to the british
b) you've still aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by force
c) you've aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by stealth

or something else. Which is it?

[Donagh]

The only thing you know about me 5iveTimes is that I chose to not to run away. The rest of your rant is just embarrassing. If you had any sense you'd stop with the MOPE, we've enough of that going on with the OWCers.

[Zapatista]

We will never achieve the Nation we say we want and that is because most of us really don't want it. If history and the present have proved anything it has proved that the majority of the Irish people are selfish and scared. We are a proud nation and that pride has overcome everything else. The DUP epitomise the Irish people. If we never admit to being wrong we will never be wrong.

[Hardy]

5ive times, I cant work out whether:

a) you've surrendered to the british
b) you've still aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by force
c) you've aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by stealth

or something else. Which is it?

Orior, I was going to ask why you would want to know more of the opinion of someone who is capable of something like this:

Quote from: 5iveTimes on 2008-11-02, 19:19:41:

I`ve just watched a cheating black british racing driver cheat his way to the FIA world title. I managed to say that without using the N word.

Then I thought maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to shed a little more light on the Ireland of equals this character and his ilk would have in mind for us.

[Evil Genius]

5ive times, I cant work out whether:

a) you've surrendered to the british
b) you've still aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by force
c) you've aspirations of a Unitied Ireland by stealth

or something else. Which is it?

How curious the use of the word "stealth". For having failed to achieve a United Ireland by force, do you really believe that you can in some way "trick" one million unwilling Unionists into a United Ireland without their noticing? Is that the purpose behind Barry McElduff's campaign to paint pillar boxes green? That they'll all suddenly forget themselves some morning when they go to post a letter?

I don't know whether 5ive Times would concur, but surely the reasonable answer to your question must be "something else". And for me, that "something else" is quite simple. Namely, that the people on the ground in NI need to remember what has already been agreed by London, Dublin, Washington and the UN (i.e. everyone that truly counts), indeed what they themselves overwhelmingly voted for.  That is, NI is British and will remain so as long as a majority of the people of NI so desire.

Which, if we are truly honest, was only what yesterday's Parade was all about. For this was not some "Army of Occupation" sent over by Westminster to kick down doors in Ballymurphy and drag the occupants off to a compound in Long Kesh. Rather, it was a Regiment of Irish soldiers, Protestant and Catholic, from North and South, marching through their home city, after a tour of duty in Afghanistan, where they had been flying the Queen's Colours and operating under the mandate of the United Nations. Which in 2008 is the reality of "the British presence in Ireland"

And it seems to me that if that is ever going to change, then the Nationalist population of Ireland need first to recognise and accept that reality. Moreover, they need to learn the same lesson that Unionists needed to learn earlier. Namely, just as they (Unionists) could never coerce or trick an unwilling population of Nationalists in NI into freely accepting a United Kingdom, then Nationalists will never coerce or trick an unwilling population of Unionists in NI into a (genuinely) United Ireland.

Which leaves those who still retain an aspiration towards a United Ireland with only two possible courses of action. The first is to wait for demographics to overturn the pro-Union majority in NI. And the second is to try to persuade that majority to change their opinion and join with them.

As regards the former, I have no idea when or even whether it will come about. And if I were a Nationalist, I might not be willing just to wait, either. Which leaves persuasion. Now in truth, that course is probably no easier than either coercion or stealth, and a sight less fun than demographics (outbreeding!). But it is at least the principled approach and therefore the only one (imo) which ought to be followed.

Which only leaves one final question. When confronted yesterday with the symbolic, tangible and undeniable truth of the real nature of the British presence in Ireland, what did SF and Eirige etc think they were going to achieve with their counter demonstration? For such a display did nothing to persuade Unionists; in fact it was quite the opposite - it served only to harden attitudes amongst the Unionist population of NI. And considering that it also seemingly did little to persuade NI Nationalists (if the paltry numbers who bothered to get out of bed and be offended on Donegall Place are anything to go by), then yesterday was in fact a triumph for Ulster Unionism and a spectacular "own goal" for the cause of Irish Nationalism.

Clear the Way!

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Which, if we are truly honest, was only what yesterday's Parade was all about. For this was not some "Army of Occupation" sent over by Westminster to kick down doors in Ballymurphy and drag the occupants off to a compound in Long Kesh. Rather, it was a Regiment of Irish soldiers, Protestant and Catholic, from North and South, marching through their home city, after a tour of duty in Afghanistan, where they had been flying the Queen's Colours and operating under the mandate of the United Nations. Which in 2008 is the reality of "the British presence in Ireland"

And it seems to me that if that is ever going to change, then the Nationalist population of Ireland need first to recognise and accept that reality.

Hmmm  an awful lot of "somes" ignored there EG.

Some people may have opposed the march because:

a) Where the soldiers are returning from. People from all walks of life, countries etc.. have conscientious objections to the "War on Terror"
b) The origins of the RIR (Were they not formed from the UDR, a regiment who had almost 300 members convicted of terrorist offenses?)
c) They are unhappy with past British Army actions in Northern Ireland (Bloody Sunday etc..)
d) They were on the direct receiving end of British Army actions in Northern Ireland.  (Families of victims such as Aidan McAnespie's)

By defining yesterday's protests in purely tribal terms you are just as bad as thosed you are criticising.

/Jim.

[nifan]

I`ve just watched a cheating black british racing driver cheat his way to the FIA world title. I managed to say that without using the N word.

Well done, it must have been difficult to hold in

Perhaps youd have been happier with a member of the aryan race winning, but unfortunately it was Hamilton or Massa so youd have been disappointed either way.

[full back]

I hate Britain with a passion, I hate everything about it and what it stands for. I`ve just watched a cheating black british racing driver cheat his way to the FIA world title. I managed to say that without using the N word.

Did you drink a gallon of whiskey while watching it?
Jaysus 5ivetimes, that is some sh1te to be spouting

[mylestheslasher]

5times is exhibiting what most of the disident republicans I have come across do. Real bitterness and anger. The fact you bring Lewis Hamilton and the colour of his skin into the debate really shows your true colours to me. Conflict cannot continue indefinetely and the winning by conflict alone was never going to happen when you are in stalemate 30 years later. A political solution, a truce or a treaty of some sort ends most of these conflicts. In such a agreement both sides need to compromise and that is what happened. You are a tiny minority within the republican family and maybe you should remember  that.

As for EG going on about republicans having to convince 1 million unionists on the benefits of a United Ireland. Again, that is wrong. Republicans only need to convince 50.1% of the whole of the 6 counties. That could means as little as 5% of unionists would have to vote for a united Ireland (if all catholics voted for). Now, if that happened what would the unionist attitude to democracy be I wonder?? Why, I'm sure there would be parades everywhere celebrating a truly historical democratic decision. What would you do EG?

[bennydorano]

Lots of pictures of the loyalist rent-a-mobs in today's Irish News.  Evil Genius's smugness seems misplaced to me.