People from the 6 counties (our wee country)

[michaelg]

"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed.  That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc.  I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.

Wow.  I dont know what to say.  Other than thats the biggest load of rubbish I have read in some time.
[/quote
Why do you think then that so many Ulster protestants do not accept / feel comfortable being called Irish?

[Applesisapples]

Boojangles, I would agree with almost all of this post. I think there are common misconceptions on all sides nationalist/unionist/north/south in relation to each other. I have never found the majority of peolpe in the South to be apathetic to the North. We may not have been their main priority at times but that is understandable. Northern Nationalists have always looked to the South more than Southern Nationalists did nortwards but that was because of the situation we were in. The reality was that the Government in the South did what it could to help whilst trying to engage the British Government, which it successfully did. To have invaded or openly sent arms would have been seen by the Brotish as an act of war, a war the Irish Government could not win let alone afford. We in the North can say that people in the South have been living beyond their means as we have been doing it since partition at the expense of the Great British tax payer. People in the South did what most of us would have done had we started to earn more money...They spent it. The people who destroyed the economy in the a small minority, many of them from the North who borrowed heaviliy to fuel over heating in the property market.

[Galwaybhoy]

"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed.  That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc.  I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.

Wow.  I dont know what to say.  Other than thats the biggest load of rubbish I have read in some time.

Why do you think then that so many Ulster protestants do not accept / feel comfortable being called Irish?

I'm sorry I read that while I was working, I misread it as I thought it was your opinion you didn't consider someone to be Irish unless they met the criteria that you stated above.  My apologies.

[02]

Thanks Boojangles and Applesisapples for informative posts, I am happy to acknowledge that I was overgeneralising. However I am stating my own perceptions which of course could be wrong.  I suppose that like everything on this island things are always more complex than can be easily articulated on a message board.  I suppose the betrayal goes back to the fall out from the Irish civil war and how there is still (for me) bitterness about how Irish people in the north had to endure being cut off from the type of nation which they longed to be part of.   

Captialism along with the decline of religion (not a bad thing) means that there is very little difference to strive for an overhaul of the status quo.  This is controversial but I think Sinn Fein are part of the British establishment and have been since their organisation was infiltrated by British intelligence operatives.  With that in mind I do not see an end to Northern Ireland any time soon, so better just to live with it.

[Main Street]

Fatalism.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county),

Had your grandparents not moved you might be defending Republican values on the OWC website right now.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.

I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.

Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.

I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...

The fact that they never bothered to try and develop a description to include the so called other island of the union, shows how little they cared for their colony to the west, just a place to rape for resources and offload troublesome fanatics.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.

I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.

Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.

I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...

Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.

Re-read what you have just posted.

Note the word "Great".

When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?

It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".

But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".

As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....

Great has othing to do with differentiating UK citizens/subjects from the U.K. from those from the other major island to our east. Great Britain and Britain are the same place. In fact Great only exists to differentiate from the other Britain (not Ireland) which is Brittany.

[Eamonnca1]

Whereas by contrast, I often find that those who cling most determinedly to a fixed and unyielding position, which brooks no challenge, subtlety or nuance, are actually concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity, such that they dare  not admit that these things are never "black and white".

So people who can answer the question of what they are without sounding confused are "concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity"?  HAHAHAHA!! That's a good one!

I support England in Test Cricket, and considering I have lived in England for years, I have no problem in considering myself "English" when the Test team is playing Australia or India or whoever.

I spent a fortnight in Mallorca once. Doesn't make me Spanish.

For I, too, am a "proud Irishman from Fermanagh".

But I am also a "Brit".

"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"

[Eamonnca1]

So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.

Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.

You have to hand it to him though, don't you?  An inability to make your mind up about what you are is actually a sign of confidence, whereas a lack of confusion is actually a sign of some deep-seated psychological problems where you're actually hiding something.  That's the best bit of sophistry I've seen in a while. 

For his next trick EG is going to prove that the north pole is actually the south pole and vice versa.

[Evil Genius]

We are indeed entitled to call ourselves what we are, but the term British or GB invariably refers to the other Island.

"Often", "usually" or even "mostly", but "invariably"?

Nonsense.

For example, when I fly back into Heathrow from abroad, I line up in the queue saying "British Passport Holders" (along with my fellow Brits from Eng, Scot and Wales).

The sign does not say: "British and Northern Irish Passport Holders".

I would seriously doubt many Scots or Welsh would call themselves British in the first instance.

How does it affect the issue whether it be 90% or 9% etc - the principle remains.

And as for your qualification "... in the first instance", that is a poor attempt at wriggling further away from the point. For it doesn't matter whether someone from Eng, Scot, Wales or NI designates himself as primarily "British"; or "English/Scottish/Welsh/Norn Iron" first and "British" second etc, they are all British and equally so, should they choose. 

[Evil Genius]

The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know."  And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?"  That's why you get ten different answers...

As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.

"Homogeneous" 

Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.

Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.

I am not such a person, even if you may be.

So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.

Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.

Aye, you've heard it. It's a shame you seem incapable of understanding it, though.

Still, that's your problem, not mine.

OK but leaving the arrogant and condescending attitude at the door, have you anything constructive to say in regards my post?

Tbh, there isn't anything "constructive" I can say.

I have explained why the question of my identity is complex, rather than simplistic. You do not accept that that is so, frankly I don't care.

And as for this causing some sort of "crisis" for me, all I can say is that I am entirely happy with my identity. Once more, I couldn't care less if you don't believe me.

[Evil Genius]

For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county),

Had your grandparents not moved you might be defending Republican values on the OWC website right now.

Doubt it - they weren't Republicans when they were in Tipp or Leitrim, either.
Which is one of the reasons why, having met in the North due to their work circumstances, they stayed up there after Partition.

[Evil Genius]

My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.

I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.

Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.

I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...

The fact that they never bothered to try and develop a description to include the so called other island of the union, shows how little they cared for their colony to the west, just a place to rape for resources and offload troublesome fanatics.

It wasn't that they "never bothered", rather it simply wasn't necessary.

Though they did incorporate St. Patrick's Cross in the Union Flag, along with the Cross of St. George and the Scottish Saltire. Dunno what happened the Welsh, mind     

[Evil Genius]

My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.

I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.

Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.

I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...

Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.

Re-read what you have just posted.

Note the word "Great".

When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?

It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".

But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".

As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....

Great has othing to do with differentiating UK citizens/subjects from the U.K. from those from the other major island to our east. Great Britain and Britain are the same place. In fact Great only exists to differentiate from the other Britain (not Ireland) which is Brittany.

It all depends on context eg Geography, History, Law, Politics or Idiom. One of the reasons why English (not "British", btw!) was so successful in becoming the 'world language' is down to its flexibility.