Though on this ?
There is a problem with players taking over four steps but i don't think that Brian McEvoys idea to have a two second rule is going to sort anything out it would have a referees head melted. AFAIK referees don't even count steps anyway as they only end up counting there own steps.
https://hoganstand.com/Cavan/Article/Index/321662 (https://hoganstand.com/Cavan/Article/Index/321662)
QuoteUlster GAA secretary Brian McAvoy is calling for the 'four steps' rule in gaelic football to be replaced by a 'two seconds' limit.
Writing in his annual report to the 2022 Ulster Convention, which will be held on Friday, January 14, McAvoy states that the current rule, which allows a player to take four steps before having to hop or solo the ball, makes life difficult for referees and outlines his preference for a 'time-based approach'.
"The rule has been in place for many years and in relation to hurling it largely continues to fulfill its purpose. The same, however, cannot be said for football," McAvoy writes.
"It was introduced in an era when 'catch and kick' was the norm and for a player to take even four steps was something of a rarity.
"But the game has evolved - it has changed from a game of 'catch and kick' to a possession game and the rule has failed to keep pace with the evolution of the game. In the modern era a player can have taken four steps before you have time to blink and if a referee in Gaelic Football attempted to implement the rule there would be chaos. They therefore, understandably, choose to ignore it.
"Rarely is a player in possession of the ball penalised for 'over-carrying' (other than when he is surrounded by opposition players) and the vast majority of players take at least seven or eight steps between 'toe-taps' when they are moving unimpeded.
"On many occasions it's many more as we witnessed in a recent All-Ireland final. Where a rule can't be enforced it shouldn't be there.
"Some players move so fast that it would be almost impossible for a referee to count steps in real time, especially when he has so many other matters of which to be mindful.
"A 'time-based' approach rather than a 'steps-based' approach is obviously the approach. I therefore believe that the GAA's Standing Committee on Playing Rules should consider the issue of steps in Gaelic football with a view to bringing forward a proposal for experimentation in 2022 or 2023."
It is hard enough to referee without this crap. Brian needs to stick to bashing the newsletter and staying away from rules.
On the other hand most over carrying is done when you get surrounded in the tackle and you in effect are not taking steps at all, just holding onto the ball. Its rare enough you see the frees for actually carrying the ball too far.
Quote from: Truth hurts on January 07, 2022, 09:32:34 AM
It is hard enough to referee without this crap. Brian needs to stick to bashing the newsletter and staying away from rules.
Wasn't that his actual point. It's too difficult to expect refs to count the steps so a time based approach would be easier to implement. The amount of overcarrying is unreal especially when there is a goal chance on. Either scrap the rule or change it so that it actually can be implemented.
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 07, 2022, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Truth hurts on January 07, 2022, 09:32:34 AM
It is hard enough to referee without this crap. Brian needs to stick to bashing the newsletter and staying away from rules.
Wasn't that his actual point. It's too difficult to expect refs to count the steps so a time based approach would be easier to implement. The amount of overcarrying is unreal especially when there is a goal chance on. Either scrap the rule or change it so that it actually can be implemented.
As a ref, its very hard to get it right exactly, all referees interpret the steps themselves so there is no real consistency across the board, some ref's are hard on steps some are hard on 'tackles' some soft on tackles. Some ref's allow an extra few steps when the lad is being tackled, the advantage rule was brought in then and that should have stopped the 'slow' whistle blow which was an old way to give an advantage.
The vast majority of ref's are ex players so their view on a play in a game is different to others. We've all been at games with friends and had a different view when the ref does or doesn't blow his whistle.
I wonder do these guys who think up these new rules actually implement them in a series of challenge games and have a look at the game afterwards and view the stats and the flow of the game.
The 2 second rule would be a disaster in my view for the game, but life would be easier on the ref
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 07, 2022, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 07, 2022, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Truth hurts on January 07, 2022, 09:32:34 AM
It is hard enough to referee without this crap. Brian needs to stick to bashing the newsletter and staying away from rules.
Wasn't that his actual point. It's too difficult to expect refs to count the steps so a time based approach would be easier to implement. The amount of overcarrying is unreal especially when there is a goal chance on. Either scrap the rule or change it so that it actually can be implemented.
As a ref, its very hard to get it right exactly, all referees interpret the steps themselves so there is no real consistency across the board, some ref's are hard on steps some are hard on 'tackles' some soft on tackles. Some ref's allow an extra few steps when the lad is being tackled, the advantage rule was brought in then and that should have stopped the 'slow' whistle blow which was an old way to give an advantage.
The vast majority of ref's are ex players so their view on a play in a game is different to others. We've all been at games with friends and had a different view when the ref does or doesn't blow his whistle.
I wonder do these guys who think up these new rules actually implement them in a series of challenge games and have a look at the game afterwards and view the stats and the flow of the game.
The 2 second rule would be a disaster in my view for the game, but life would be easier on the ref
I remember a few years ago a particular ref (a generally quite good one, in my opinion) in my county started implementing this rule in it's strictest form. I was still playing at the time, and I think between league and championship we had him for 3 or 4 games. It was absolute mayhem. Players falling over themselves trying to adapt mid-game. It's became a completely different game.
This ref went back to the "normal" interpretation the following year.
I think objectively one knows what overcarrying looks like when they see it. Certainly I don't find myself complaining about opposing players overcarrying very often. We know it's not 4 steps - but it looks like it's close enough. I don't see it as a problem in the game.
Quote from: shark on January 07, 2022, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 07, 2022, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: tyrone08 on January 07, 2022, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Truth hurts on January 07, 2022, 09:32:34 AM
It is hard enough to referee without this crap. Brian needs to stick to bashing the newsletter and staying away from rules.
Wasn't that his actual point. It's too difficult to expect refs to count the steps so a time based approach would be easier to implement. The amount of overcarrying is unreal especially when there is a goal chance on. Either scrap the rule or change it so that it actually can be implemented.
As a ref, its very hard to get it right exactly, all referees interpret the steps themselves so there is no real consistency across the board, some ref's are hard on steps some are hard on 'tackles' some soft on tackles. Some ref's allow an extra few steps when the lad is being tackled, the advantage rule was brought in then and that should have stopped the 'slow' whistle blow which was an old way to give an advantage.
The vast majority of ref's are ex players so their view on a play in a game is different to others. We've all been at games with friends and had a different view when the ref does or doesn't blow his whistle.
I wonder do these guys who think up these new rules actually implement them in a series of challenge games and have a look at the game afterwards and view the stats and the flow of the game.
The 2 second rule would be a disaster in my view for the game, but life would be easier on the ref
I remember a few years ago a particular ref (a generally quite good one, in my opinion) in my county started implementing this rule in it's strictest form. I was still playing at the time, and I think between league and championship we had him for 3 or 4 games. It was absolute mayhem. Players falling over themselves trying to adapt mid-game. It's became a completely different game.
This ref went back to the "normal" interpretation the following year.
I think objectively one knows what overcarrying looks like when they see it. Certainly I don't find myself complaining about opposing players overcarrying very often. We know it's not 4 steps - but it looks like it's close enough. I don't see it as a problem in the game.
I agree and have a personally softer approach to steps., unless they are taking the piss and within a reasonable 4 seconds then play on, as long as you do it for both then there should be no issues, TV highlights incidents in slow motion, which on reflection does look a lot worse. Players need to know the style of a ref and its on them if they don't
Disagree. Defenders job is difficult enough trying to time the tackle after the bounce / solo on the 4th step.
Craziest overcarring decision of last year!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc)
Quote from: rrhf on January 07, 2022, 12:40:33 PM
Disagree. Defenders job is difficult enough trying to time the tackle after the bounce / solo on the 4th step.
To tackle someone is not a foul? What are you on about?
Con O'Callaghan took 6 steps and a bounce then 7 to 8 steps before scoring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE)
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 01:06:39 PM
Con O'Callaghan took 6 steps and a bounce then 7 to 8 steps before scoring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE)
Again, in real time and in the heat of the game those things will happen, its a mistake on the ref for not pulling that
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
Craziest overcarring decision of last year!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc)
The goal keeper over carrying? I counted first few carry's were fine, he over carried the ball the later and was called on it
I actually dont think there is too much of a problem with over carrying, I think each referee is different in how they implement the rules if they blow a couple early doors well then you know how its gonna pan out. Most players know what certain refs are hard on and more lenient on. Even if its a ref you're not sure on you learn in the first 5-10 mins what he's gonna be like with letting steps go etc, just leave it as is, why do we need to make changes every year
Quote from: themac_23 on January 07, 2022, 01:13:51 PM
I actually dont think there is too much of a problem with over carrying, I think each referee is different in how they implement the rules if they blow a couple early doors well then you know how its gonna pan out. Most players know what certain refs are hard on and more lenient on. Even if its a ref you're not sure on you learn in the first 5-10 mins what he's gonna be like with letting steps go etc, just leave it as is, why do we need to make changes every year
I can see how some people can get annoyed about it, if a goal is scored and it looked like he over carried the ball the ref will come in for some stick..
I normally give extra steps for small people lol ;)
Run very fast and don't stop to think ;D
As the attacker, as long as you don't hesitate you usually get away with a lot more steps. The minute you show any hesitation the ref will blow you up. Also if you are 'riding' a tackle you can get away with 10 steps a lot of the time.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 07, 2022, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
Craziest overcarring decision of last year!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc)
The goal keeper over carrying? I counted first few carry's were fine, he over carried the ball the later and was called on it
At no stage does the Goalkeeper go over the 4 steps or even hold the ball and stand still! There isn't even an exaggerated hop!
Referee was looking to punish Dublin for playing the possession game.
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 07, 2022, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
Craziest overcarring decision of last year!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc)
The goal keeper over carrying? I counted first few carry's were fine, he over carried the ball the later and was called on it
At no stage does the Goalkeeper go over the 4 steps or even hold the ball and stand still! There isn't even an exaggerated hop!
Referee was looking to punish Dublin for playing the possession game.
Seen a lot worse than Comerfords, was definitely more than 4 steps but was after riding a tackle so should have been allowed to continue.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 07, 2022, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 07, 2022, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 07, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
Craziest overcarring decision of last year!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuFl_8DiWc)
The goal keeper over carrying? I counted first few carry's were fine, he over carried the ball the later and was called on it
At no stage does the Goalkeeper go over the 4 steps or even hold the ball and stand still! There isn't even an exaggerated hop!
Referee was looking to punish Dublin for playing the possession game.
Seen a lot worse than Comerfords, was definitely more than 4 steps but was after riding a tackle so should have been allowed to continue.
But riding a tackle does not constitute extra steps! There used to be that but if the tackle was a foul the ref should raise his hand for advantage.
And the keeper in video clearly took more than four steps, this is where we as supporters look at incidents and view it differently. Think how hard it is for ref's!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDpW80WUk4
Sean O Sheas goal, about 8 steps, but Conor Meyler takes the biscuit from 1.22 , about 12 or 13
Also frees from the hand, players generally steal 5 meters, which reduces shot length &/ or angle. Never punished. Could referees use foam similar to soccer referees.
Quote from: Rudi on March 06, 2023, 01:17:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDpW80WUk4
Sean O Sheas goal, about 8 steps, but Conor Meyler takes the biscuit from 1.22 , about 12 or 13
Also frees from the hand, players generally steal 5 meters, which reduces shot length &/ or angle. Never punished. Could referees use foam similar to soccer referees.
Meyler seemed to take about 8 steps in that bit no? He lays it off to Harte who hits the top of the post. The scoreboard rolls over to 2 points. Then the ref overruled the umpires and the score is disallowed. Has there been any clarification on why that was disallowed?
Players seems to get away with 3 or 4 extra steps if they are about to take a shot for a goal or so it seems to be in any league game I've seen this year. O'Shea in that goal above and O'Donoghue v Kerry the 2 that spring to mind.
The Meyler one was so blatantly obvious though. He got 14 steps with one bounce. Not sure what the referee was doing on that one.
The foam is a good idea but then people will give out we're copying the soccer again ::)
Referees seem to let overcarrying go unless it is very obvious. I would be in favour of the foam marker for frees. Players start their run up from the spot and in many cases the free is reduced to a tap over free.
I used to get be strict in training with the young lads with steps. It was really frustrating in games seeing other teams take the piss with steps. I now tell them in training to take 6 in open play and 8 bursting through the tackle. They get away with it every time, unless they hesitate. I've seen lads hesitate on 4 steps and get pulled for over-carrying.
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 06, 2023, 02:34:28 PM
I used to get be strict in training with the young lads with steps. It was really frustrating in games seeing other teams take the piss with steps. I now tell them in training to take 6 in open play and 8 bursting through the tackle. They get away with it every time, unless they hesitate. I've seen lads hesitate on 4 steps and get pulled for over-carrying.
This is the most frustrating part! Sometimes lads are fine with the amount of steps but if they have a look of panic and are in trouble with men around them the ref often blows the whistle! Usually a bit of shouting and roaring from the supporters helps this too!
Quote from: CK_Redhand on March 06, 2023, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: Rudi on March 06, 2023, 01:17:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDpW80WUk4
Sean O Sheas goal, about 8 steps, but Conor Meyler takes the biscuit from 1.22 , about 12 or 13
Meyler seemed to take about 8 steps in that bit no? He lays it off to Harte who hits the top of the post. The scoreboard rolls over to 2 points. Then the ref overruled the umpires and the score is disallowed. Has there been any clarification on why that was disallowed?
Ball must go between the post, hitting the top is same as when ball goes over the post, a wide.
Quote from: JimStynes on March 06, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 06, 2023, 02:34:28 PM
I used to get be strict in training with the young lads with steps. It was really frustrating in games seeing other teams take the piss with steps. I now tell them in training to take 6 in open play and 8 bursting through the tackle. They get away with it every time, unless they hesitate. I've seen lads hesitate on 4 steps and get pulled for over-carrying.
This is the most frustrating part! Sometimes lads are fine with the amount of steps but if they have a look of panic and are in trouble with men around them the ref often blows the whistle! Usually a bit of shouting and roaring from the supporters helps this too!
Isn't the rule 4 steps, or the amount of time it would take to take 4 steps? So if you've taken 4, and then decide to stop and look around, that's still overcarrying. Unless they changed that rule over the past few years?
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 06, 2023, 02:34:28 PM
I used to get be strict in training with the young lads with steps. It was really frustrating in games seeing other teams take the piss with steps. I now tell them in training to take 6 in open play and 8 bursting through the tackle. They get away with it every time, unless they hesitate. I've seen lads hesitate on 4 steps and get pulled for over-carrying.
This is it exactly. If you take 3 steps and pause for a second before giving a handpass you get done. Last night the sunday game were showing Brendan Rodgers and his exciting runs, he was taking as many as 8 steps to break the line - totally illegal and yet complimented by the "experts".
As someone who started reffing hurling recently, I would find time easier to count than steps. When you're watching out for fouls you're watching the upper part of the players, not watching their feet.
Refs take this approach to steps... if it looks wrong it is wrong. Them blowing overcarrying has nothing to do with how many steps the player takes. Ask them after they blow the whistle how many does the player take and they couldn't tell you.
Quote from: trailer on March 06, 2023, 04:30:50 PM
Refs take this approach to steps... if it looks wrong it is wrong. Them blowing overcarrying has nothing to do with how many steps the player takes. Ask them after they blow the whistle how many does the player take and they couldn't tell you.
Over 4 steps I tell them if they ask, you blow for over carrying there's usually no complaints, but be rest assured when the other team has a player carrying it for 3 steps they'll be bleating in your ear the whole game!!
Maybe the ref's just blow the real obvious ones so they ain't being tortured the whole game
Maybe in time we will have smart socks that measure the steps and message the ref automatically to his ear piece
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 06, 2023, 04:34:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 06, 2023, 04:30:50 PM
Refs take this approach to steps... if it looks wrong it is wrong. Them blowing overcarrying has nothing to do with how many steps the player takes. Ask them after they blow the whistle how many does the player take and they couldn't tell you.
Over 4 steps I tell them if they ask, you blow for over carrying there's usually no complaints, but be rest assured when the other team has a player carrying it for 3 steps they'll be bleating in your ear the whole game!!
Maybe the ref's just blow the real obvious ones so they ain't being tortured the whole game
Yes!
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on March 06, 2023, 03:22:05 PM
Quote from: CK_Redhand on March 06, 2023, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: Rudi on March 06, 2023, 01:17:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDpW80WUk4
Sean O Sheas goal, about 8 steps, but Conor Meyler takes the biscuit from 1.22 , about 12 or 13
Meyler seemed to take about 8 steps in that bit no? He lays it off to Harte who hits the top of the post. The scoreboard rolls over to 2 points. Then the ref overruled the umpires and the score is disallowed. Has there been any clarification on why that was disallowed?
Ball must go between the post, hitting the top is same as when ball goes over the post, a wide.
Thanks. Surely it depends on exactly how it happens. The one yesterday for example, as it bounces back between the posts, it should be counted as a point. The whole ball has to be over the line for it to be out of play. So the instant the ball does go out of play it is in fact between the posts.
I presume when it hits the top of the post it is out of play. Even it bounce back onto the field or between the post. Only my thoughts.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on March 06, 2023, 05:23:22 PM
I presume when it hits the top of the post it is out of play. Even it bounce back onto the field or between the post. Only my thoughts.
If it's over the post it's wide, unless you make the posts longer but that rule has never changed
Kerry player bounces the ball twice before passing to Clifford for his first point from play. Very hard for refs to spot these things in real time.
Quote from: phpearse on March 06, 2023, 07:22:06 PM
Kerry player bounces the ball twice before passing to Clifford for his first point from play. Very hard for refs to spot these things in real time.
I'd say it would happen at least twice in a game but rarely caught
I've seen coaches on the sideline roaring at a ref for "two hops" but after viewing the footage it showed the player did a toe-tap that somehow looked like a bounce. Maybe her foot was very low to the ground at the time of contact, or something.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 06, 2023, 07:49:07 PM
I've seen coaches on the sideline roaring at a ref for "two hops" but after viewing the footage it showed the player did a toe-tap that somehow looked like a bounce. Maybe her foot was very low to the ground at the time of contact, or something.
There would be sometimes in a match that the player hasn't 'control' of the ball and you'd hear a cry for "two bounces" when actually he's trying to gain control and looks like two bounces
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 06, 2023, 07:47:10 PM
Quote from: phpearse on March 06, 2023, 07:22:06 PM
Kerry player bounces the ball twice before passing to Clifford for his first point from play. Very hard for refs to spot these things in real time.
I'd say it would happen at least twice in a game but rarely caught
Spectators do not realise that reffing a game takes a huge amount of concentration. It can be hard to spot steps, two bounces, jersey tugs, Marks, square balls. Decisions have to be made on the spur of the moment. Most Refs want to let the game flow. They don't want to be giving frees every minute.
Quote from: phpearse on March 06, 2023, 07:22:06 PM
Kerry player bounces the ball twice before passing to Clifford for his first only point from play. Very hard for refs to spot these things in real time.
Fixed that for you! ;)
Players are going that fast these days u need about 6steps in the rule book.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 06, 2023, 07:49:07 PM
I've seen coaches on the sideline roaring at a ref for "two hops" but after viewing the footage it showed the player did a toe-tap that somehow looked like a bounce. Maybe her foot was very low to the ground at the time of contact, or something.
Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKZ5lvDOwVU&t=408s
From the coach viewpoint the curve of the field probably hid the player's foot and it looked like a bounce. Either way, it's amazing how people on the sideline see what they want to see and are convinced the ref missed something.