Feile an Phobail

[brokencrossbar1]

If/when there is a UI. I'd like to think the OO no matter what we think of them would be accommodated to continue their culture. The band scene is a big part of PUL culture and isn't going away. There is a dodgy element at them parades. Growing up in a majority loyalist area I've witnessed it first hand. Things have changed though. My kids can walk around in gaa tops etc.  The Wolfe Tones craic is a fugazi. No one really cares really. A load of kids shouting up the raa. They aren't running off to join the alphabet raa the next day. It's a reality of this place. I get the whole moral high ground thing but as someone else said it will be forgotten about in a few days when the next moral outrage comes along. Maybe we just accept these things will linger for a while yet. The broad black brimmer and the sash have certainly stuck around.

And it's also fine for thousands of kids to shout uuuvf!! If you are fine with that continuing then we've no problems at all

More just accepting off it than fine tbh. I've had many a nights craic singing the tunes. Wouldn't dream of it now, cringe at the thought. I'll not be anywhere hearing uvf chants but no doubt it exists. As years go on it will lessen. My point maybe poorly made is just let it reach it's natural conclusion.

Things will eventually reach their natural conclusion, and the inevitable is happening, but if we are to move into a New Ireland we need to make concessions, as do the unionist/loyalists. For too long we have lived in a nose thumbing society which basically says we will do what we want and you have to just suck it up. Whilst that may be more from one side of the fence than the other that doesn't mean it doesn't happen from everywhere. I want my children to grow up where this is all part of history. 2 of them are studying history in school and they are doing the Troubles up to the GFA. This is now 'history'. Let's consign the whole lot to history and try to have an accommodation in the way we live. It won't happen the other way too easily but that's the last bark of the crying dog. Be the grown ups and lead it out.

[general_lee]

The thing is, "Unapologetically British" in a 6 county context tends to mean being a belligerent, intransigent, right wing, anti-Irish supremacist.

The brass neck of DUP and other Loyalist politicians bemoaning one single bonfire in Derry when it's exactly the same thing they get up to every July on a much larger scale is almost unbelievable.  Loyalist culture seems to be sacred - you can't challenge, criticise or oppose it without them going into full siege mentality.

There are many thousands of British, Unionist people who aren't belligerent, intransigent, right wing etc.  A lot of people on here tend to tar all Unionists with the same loyalist brush.

I'm not tarring anyone. I know many Unionists who are nothing of the sort, although they aren't as insecure as to describe themselves as "unapologetically British".

If/when there is a UI. I'd like to think the OO no matter what we think of them would be accommodated to continue their culture. The band scene is a big part of PUL culture and isn't going away. There is a dodgy element at them parades. Growing up in a majority loyalist area I've witnessed it first hand. Things have changed though. My kids can walk around in gaa tops etc.  The Wolfe Tones craic is a fugazi. No one really cares really. A load of kids shouting up the raa. They aren't running off to join the alphabet raa the next day. It's a reality of this place. I get the whole moral high ground thing but as someone else said it will be forgotten about in a few days when the next moral outrage comes along. Maybe we just accept these things will linger for a while yet. The broad black brimmer and the sash have certainly stuck around.

And it's also fine for thousands of kids to shout uuuvf!! If you are fine with that continuing then we've no problems at all

You make the equivalence of "kids shouting UVF" when the proper equivalence is the local flute band which will either be UVF or UDA orientated. They don't have to worry about who they are or what they represent because it's seen as perfectly normal for them to go about expressing their culture in public, more often than not in areas they're not even from. Perfect example is that that mob from Larne who had special uniforms made for their wee day in Derry a few years ago.

[imtommygunn]

If/when there is a UI. I'd like to think the OO no matter what we think of them would be accommodated to continue their culture. The band scene is a big part of PUL culture and isn't going away. There is a dodgy element at them parades. Growing up in a majority loyalist area I've witnessed it first hand. Things have changed though. My kids can walk around in gaa tops etc.  The Wolfe Tones craic is a fugazi. No one really cares really. A load of kids shouting up the raa. They aren't running off to join the alphabet raa the next day. It's a reality of this place. I get the whole moral high ground thing but as someone else said it will be forgotten about in a few days when the next moral outrage comes along. Maybe we just accept these things will linger for a while yet. The broad black brimmer and the sash have certainly stuck around.

And it's also fine for thousands of kids to shout uuuvf!! If you are fine with that continuing then we've no problems at all

More just accepting off it than fine tbh. I've had many a nights craic singing the tunes. Wouldn't dream of it now, cringe at the thought. I'll not be anywhere hearing uvf chants but no doubt it exists. As years go on it will lessen. My point maybe poorly made is just let it reach it's natural conclusion.

Things will eventually reach their natural conclusion, and the inevitable is happening, but if we are to move into a New Ireland we need to make concessions, as do the unionist/loyalists. For too long we have lived in a nose thumbing society which basically says we will do what we want and you have to just suck it up. Whilst that may be more from one side of the fence than the other that doesn't mean it doesn't happen from everywhere. I want my children to grow up where this is all part of history. 2 of them are studying history in school and they are doing the Troubles up to the GFA. This is now 'history'. Let's consign the whole lot to history and try to have an accommodation in the way we live. It won't happen the other way too easily but that's the last bark of the crying dog. Be the grown ups and lead it out.

Precisely. Let's not accuse one "side" of doing something and then do exactly the same ourselves. There is plenty of room for both cultures.

[keep her low this half]

Trans link are now reviewing their sponsorship of the teddy bears picnic.

Seriously.

World has gone mad.

That's thon Nolan p***k stirring shit again. How dare you give Teddy bears to a bunch of fenian kids.
In fairness holding a review is the equivalent of doing nothing and I fully expect Translink to let it slide for 6 months then continue.

[Milltown Row2]

The thing is, "Unapologetically British" in a 6 county context tends to mean being a belligerent, intransigent, right wing, anti-Irish supremacist.

The brass neck of DUP and other Loyalist politicians bemoaning one single bonfire in Derry when it's exactly the same thing they get up to every July on a much larger scale is almost unbelievable.  Loyalist culture seems to be sacred - you can't challenge, criticise or oppose it without them going into full siege mentality.

There are many thousands of British, Unionist people who aren't belligerent, intransigent, right wing etc.  A lot of people on here tend to tar all Unionists with the same loyalist brush.

I'm not tarring anyone. I know many Unionists who are nothing of the sort, although they aren't as insecure as to describe themselves as "unapologetically British".

If/when there is a UI. I'd like to think the OO no matter what we think of them would be accommodated to continue their culture. The band scene is a big part of PUL culture and isn't going away. There is a dodgy element at them parades. Growing up in a majority loyalist area I've witnessed it first hand. Things have changed though. My kids can walk around in gaa tops etc.  The Wolfe Tones craic is a fugazi. No one really cares really. A load of kids shouting up the raa. They aren't running off to join the alphabet raa the next day. It's a reality of this place. I get the whole moral high ground thing but as someone else said it will be forgotten about in a few days when the next moral outrage comes along. Maybe we just accept these things will linger for a while yet. The broad black brimmer and the sash have certainly stuck around.

And it's also fine for thousands of kids to shout uuuvf!! If you are fine with that continuing then we've no problems at all

You make the equivalence of "kids shouting UVF" when the proper equivalence is the local flute band which will either be UVF or UDA orientated. They don't have to worry about who they are or what they represent because it's seen as perfectly normal for them to go about expressing their culture in public, more often than not in areas they're not even from. Perfect example is that that mob from Larne who had special uniforms made for their wee day in Derry a few years ago.

So its ok then? Whatever spin you want to put on it, mine was a direct link to thousands shouting up the ra and other kids shouting up the UVF if we say "ach sure its only a bitta craic" but have an opinion when kids from the other side are doing it its a bit daft don't you think?

[RedHand88]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

[general_lee]

The thing is, "Unapologetically British" in a 6 county context tends to mean being a belligerent, intransigent, right wing, anti-Irish supremacist.

The brass neck of DUP and other Loyalist politicians bemoaning one single bonfire in Derry when it's exactly the same thing they get up to every July on a much larger scale is almost unbelievable.  Loyalist culture seems to be sacred - you can't challenge, criticise or oppose it without them going into full siege mentality.

There are many thousands of British, Unionist people who aren't belligerent, intransigent, right wing etc.  A lot of people on here tend to tar all Unionists with the same loyalist brush.

I'm not tarring anyone. I know many Unionists who are nothing of the sort, although they aren't as insecure as to describe themselves as "unapologetically British".

If/when there is a UI. I'd like to think the OO no matter what we think of them would be accommodated to continue their culture. The band scene is a big part of PUL culture and isn't going away. There is a dodgy element at them parades. Growing up in a majority loyalist area I've witnessed it first hand. Things have changed though. My kids can walk around in gaa tops etc.  The Wolfe Tones craic is a fugazi. No one really cares really. A load of kids shouting up the raa. They aren't running off to join the alphabet raa the next day. It's a reality of this place. I get the whole moral high ground thing but as someone else said it will be forgotten about in a few days when the next moral outrage comes along. Maybe we just accept these things will linger for a while yet. The broad black brimmer and the sash have certainly stuck around.

And it's also fine for thousands of kids to shout uuuvf!! If you are fine with that continuing then we've no problems at all

You make the equivalence of "kids shouting UVF" when the proper equivalence is the local flute band which will either be UVF or UDA orientated. They don't have to worry about who they are or what they represent because it's seen as perfectly normal for them to go about expressing their culture in public, more often than not in areas they're not even from. Perfect example is that that mob from Larne who had special uniforms made for their wee day in Derry a few years ago.

So its ok then? Whatever spin you want to put on it, mine was a direct link to thousands shouting up the ra and other kids shouting up the UVF if we say "ach sure its only a bitta craic" but have an opinion when kids from the other side are doing it its a bit daft don't you think?

It's not spin, it is fact. The IRA for all intents and purposes are defunct. Neither the UDA nor the UVF are; and if reports are to be believed there are some 12,500 members of Loyalist paramilitaries. Kids on the other side dont have to shout UVF, they just put on their band uniform and go marching. That is them saying up the UVF. 

[Snapchap]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

[haranguerer]

Agreed

[Throw It Up Ref]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder

[Snapchap]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder

You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

[marty34]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Totally agree.

These are the same people who compare the OO to the GAA.

Same as the bonfire in Derry City - was that the only one this year? People comparing it with hundreds of bonfires on the 11th night with anti-Irish stuff on top on them.

When unionists are down to one bonfire, then they can talk.

But this 'they're as bad as each other' narrative must be pulled up.

[Throw It Up Ref]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder

You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

[Snapchap]

I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?

Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder

You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

If the only way to define a terrorist organisation is whether or not they ever targeted civilians, then can you name for me a single armed group anywhere that wasn't "terrorist"? Were the allied forces in WW2 terrorist? After all, they carpet bombed the densely populated city of Dresden for three days, dropping 3,900 tonnes of explosives on it, killing 25,000 people.

And lived experience doesn't alter basic facts. The IRA over the course of the conflict is estimated to have detonated approximately 19,000 bombs/IEDs. The overwhelming majority were directed at british security force personnel/infrastructure. Less than 1% of them resulted in civilian deaths. So if you believed that IRA campaign was directed at civilians, you'd have to say they were pretty awful at it. To quote the widely respected veteran BBC journalist Peter Taylor:

"by and large, the IRA tactic was not to kill civilians... Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic state deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as possible and that's epitomised by Al-Queda's attack on New York and Washington on 9/11.

In contrast the IRA's cardinal policy was not to deliberately go out and massacre civilians. Now I accept and I also qualified it with notable exceptions such as Tullyvallen Orange Hall and Whitecross massacre when protestant workmen were gunned down by the IRA, so there are notable exceptions.

With regard to Enniskillen the bomb was planted in a position to target security forces. The bomb was placed in a position where civilians were watching and whether or not that was deliberate, I very much doubt it.

It didn't actually pay the IRA to massacre and kill civilians...the IRA used violence primarily against security forces"

Singing along to a rebel songs isn't the same as sectarian gloating over the murder of an innocent woman. No matter how how try to spin it.

[RedHand88]

Some people really need to drop the tribalism and look at things objectively. If you can't take the blinkers off and see how songs about the ra can be offensive to victims then I myself really do despair.