The Fine Gael thread

[Jeepers Creepers]

Incorrect, they were sold well below Market Value, if you take the time to read the article it will explain it for you.

Perhaps you would like to point out where it says that?
Robbo wanted the properties sold for £1 billion to PIMCO, NAMA wanted them sold on the open market and got £1.3 billion. If they were worth more presumably someone would have bid more for them.

The portfolio was not offered to the open market which was supposedly one of the NAMA terms in order to get the best deal for the Irish tax payer. Both Primco and cerberus were lined up.

[mikehunt]

How many are in a position to make bids for that kind of money? If you take the time to read the article properly it clearly implies that a better price could have been sought. One property sold by Nama in 2012 on Mount Street for 27m was sold on for 42m less than 2 years later. If you believe there is nothing improper going on then why are there criminal charges in the UK and the US but not in Ireland where the actual owners of the assess were based? Can you answer that? Can you answer why NAMA refused to go to Stormont to answer questions on the sale?

I am not a property expert, perhaps the NI properties would have fetched more if broken into smaller lots, perhaps not. But the fact that they were not does not necessarily imply impropriety. Likewise there may be case that NAMA should hold on to properties longer, rather than trying to get their money, but in 2012 money was short and money now may have seemed preferable, this not necessarily imply impropriety. As far as I can see the criminality took place between persons in NI and companies in the US, so that is where the charges should be.

So if they had nothing to hide why did they not go to Stormont? If there's nothing to hide why are they so determined to try to stop any info getting in to the public domain.

http://www.thejournal.ie/nama-appeal-environmental-information-requests-811828-Feb2013/

[weareros]

Incorrect, they were sold well below Market Value, if you take the time to read the article it will explain it for you.

Perhaps you would like to point out where it says that?
Robbo wanted the properties sold for £1 billion to PIMCO, NAMA wanted them sold on the open market and got £1.3 billion. If they were worth more presumably someone would have bid more for them.

The portfolio was not offered to the open market which was supposedly one of the NAMA terms in order to get the best deal for the Irish tax payer. Both Primco and cerberus were lined up.

According to this article, the was at least 9 bidders and it was open market.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/how-it-all-unfolded-nama-project-eagle-341782.html

[mikehunt]

Incorrect, they were sold well below Market Value, if you take the time to read the article it will explain it for you.

Perhaps you would like to point out where it says that?
Robbo wanted the properties sold for £1 billion to PIMCO, NAMA wanted them sold on the open market and got £1.3 billion. If they were worth more presumably someone would have bid more for them.

The portfolio was not offered to the open market which was supposedly one of the NAMA terms in order to get the best deal for the Irish tax payer. Both Primco and cerberus were lined up.

According to this article, the was at least 9 bidders and it was open market.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/how-it-all-unfolded-nama-project-eagle-341782.html

Open market for Hedge Funds. Not quite the same thung.

[weareros]

Incorrect, they were sold well below Market Value, if you take the time to read the article it will explain it for you.

Perhaps you would like to point out where it says that?
Robbo wanted the properties sold for £1 billion to PIMCO, NAMA wanted them sold on the open market and got £1.3 billion. If they were worth more presumably someone would have bid more for them.

The portfolio was not offered to the open market which was supposedly one of the NAMA terms in order to get the best deal for the Irish tax payer. Both Primco and cerberus were lined up.

According to this article, the was at least 9 bidders and it was open market.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/how-it-all-unfolded-nama-project-eagle-341782.html

Open market for Hedge Funds. Not quite the same thung.

Well it was Irish property owners borrowing money from banks (money they could never pay back) that screwed the taxpayer in the first place. Did you want to go down that road again and repeat the cycle?

[haranguerer]

Lot of lads very keen to defend NAMA and the government here. Bizarre

[armaghniac]

Lot of lads very keen to defend NAMA and the government here. Bizarre

What should NAMA have done differently?

[mikehunt]

Well it was Irish property owners borrowing money from banks (money they could never pay back) that screwed the taxpayer in the first place. Did you want to go down that road again and repeat the cycle?

Unlike you I wouldn't be an advocate of Paddy economics. I would prefer if they bought low and sold high. Without wanting to go into the paying Bondholders debate again, the decision to turn private debt into sovereign debt was what screwed the taxpayer, not the actual developers. Bondholders were receiving a premium for the risk associated with lending to these developers.

[mikehunt]

Lot of lads very keen to defend NAMA and the government here. Bizarre

What should NAMA have done differently?

Transparency would have been a start. Maybe not hire the likes of Johnny Ronan and his ilk at over 200k a year. And remember these are the things we know about, fcuk knows what else lurks beneath. When I hear "commercially sensitive" I immediately smell a rat. Sometimes wish I was naive like you and I wouldn't get so annoyed.

[Mayo4Sam]

Lot of lads very keen to defend NAMA and the government here. Bizarre

What should NAMA have done differently?

Transparency would have been a start. Maybe not hire the likes of Johnny Ronan and his ilk at over 200k a year. And remember these are the things we know about, fcuk knows what else lurks beneath. When I hear "commercially sensitive" I immediately smell a rat. Sometimes wish I was naive like you and I wouldn't get so annoyed.

I'm sorry, what?

[mikehunt]

Lot of lads very keen to defend NAMA and the government here. Bizarre

What should NAMA have done differently?

Transparency would have been a start. Maybe not hire the likes of Johnny Ronan and his ilk at over 200k a year. And remember these are the things we know about, fcuk knows what else lurks beneath. When I hear "commercially sensitive" I immediately smell a rat. Sometimes wish I was naive like you and I wouldn't get so annoyed.

I'm sorry, what?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/thanks-nama-for-having-us-pay-developers-to-sort-out-their-debts-26789282.html

Did you not know this???

[muppet]

Citing a Brendan O'Connor article on NAMA is like referencing Ray Darcy on the Higg's Boson.

NAMA was inevitable once Cowan and Lenihan made the bonkers Bank Guarantee decision. You can dispute elements of the way it is run (e.g. the secrecy Lenihan wrote into the legislation is disgraceful), but calling for it to be closed down now, as O'Connor does, is idiotic. For example, NAMA's debt isn't on the Government's books, but they would be instantly if we shut it down. Our National Debt would soar overnight.

It is too late now, but I thought the way it was set up was a conjob on taxpayers. For example (wild example not to be taken literally), if a bank had a balance sheet of €100B and half of that was toxic loans in property, here is (to a simple layman like myself) what happened. The state forced the bank to sell the toxic €50B to NAMA, with a much publicised 'haircut'. So NAMA paid (say) €30B and we were told that the lower price was good for us the taxpayer. Of course the value of the property was far less than €30B and NAMA's job was to find a way (secretly of course) to raise the value of the portfolio and get money back for the taxpayer. This naturally was a disaster for the taxpayer, but we were told it was all good.

But there was another problem that seemed to get missed. When NAMA paid this fictitious bank €30B for a €50B portfolio, the bank's balance sheet was down €20B. So the Government (taxpayer) made up the difference to 'recapitalise' the bank. Thus the €50B (on toxic loans) that was removed from the bank's balance sheet was replaced by €30B from NAMA (taxpayers head on the block) and €20B from the Government to recapitalise (taxpayers head on the block).

I accept the above is an over-simplistic view of what went on and the reality was far more complicated, but I would argue that much of the complication was artificial and deliberately added (like the secrecy) to divert the ordinary punters interest elsewhere. Most of us don't bothering questioning things we don't understand.

As for hiring developers, while it is certainly galling, who else would you hire to take on these failed massive property schemes and turn them into something with value? (Serious question btw - there may be a better answer than what NAMA did but it isn't obvious). To me paying the Irish developers who know the trade is a teeny, tiny problem in comparison to what went on earlier.

It is a bit like doing nothing at the time of the Bank Guarantee, nothing at the time of the Bailout, and then throwing a missive tantrum over Irish Water. The Troika and Government mandarins must be quietly laughing at our stupidity and predictability.

[mikehunt]

Citing a Brendan O'Connor article on NAMA is like referencing Ray Darcy on the Higg's Boson.

Apologies oh wise one, I will say ten Hail Muppet's and self flagulate for the next 15 minutes. 

[armaghniac]

Citing a Brendan O'Connor article on NAMA is like referencing Ray Darcy on the Higg's Boson.

Apologies oh wise one, I will say ten Hail Muppet's and self flagulate for the next 15 minutes.

I'd suggest 45 minutes, at least.

[mikehunt]

Citing a Brendan O'Connor article on NAMA is like referencing Ray Darcy on the Higg's Boson.

Apologies oh wise one, I will say ten Hail Muppet's and self flagulate for the next 15 minutes.

I'd suggest 45 minutes, at least.

You overthrow muppet as the intellectual and moral Oracle of the board then you shall have your wish.