The Fine Gael thread

[foxcommander]

Seeing the  tabloidesque mock shock horror over the Planning case ( which is of course nothing to do with FG as Mac and Maguire pointed out to the 2 biggest eejits on the Board ) do the Planning Acts and Regulations lay down anything about
- minimum height of person below which Legislation doesn't apply
- Maximum age ditto
- Sex ditto.

If it's not right to prosecute a "little old lady" does it follow that only tall young men can be prosecuted?

If you only had something of substance to contribute but thanks for trying. Glad we're friends again

[macdanger2]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

[foxcommander]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

The government department has overall responsibility for the councils and what they get up to. Not excusing the councils actions either in this. Surely a bit of common sense applied could have sorted it out rather than taking legal routes against a 90 year old.

[macdanger2]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

The government department has overall responsibility for the councils and what they get up to. Not excusing the councils actions either in this. Surely a bit of common sense applied could have sorted it out rather than taking legal routes against a 90 year old.

Of course a bitta common sense could have sorted it out but blaming politicians for the incompetence / pettiness of civil servants is complete rubbish.

Now what the council / govt should do is put in place some sort of guidelines to prevent this sort of waste happening again

[macdanger2]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

Govt acountability? My hunch that u were living in a dream-world has been proven correct.

Eh?? You're the one that's attempting to hold govt accountable for the day to day minutiae of city council civil servant decisions

I think we're done on this from my end Mike

[mikehunt]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

Govt accountability? My hunch that you were living in a dream - world has been proven correct. 

[foxcommander]

Someone should tell Enda he needs to press a button to make the lift go up and down.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34411889

I wonder if they could prosecute the lift for false imprisonment?

[mikehunt]

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Since you believe govt has a role in this, surely it would be the Dublin city councillors who would be accountable rather than central govt??

Govt acountability? My hunch that u were living in a dream-world has been proven correct.

Eh?? You're the one that's attempting to hold govt accountable for the day to day minutiae of city council civil servant decisions

I think we're done on this from my end Mike

You think govt policy does not impact on "day to day minutiae of city council civil servant decisions". You are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong. All decisions in any organisation come from the top. They control the resources and while they may not make every decision, resources dictate what decision is made all the way down to grunt level.

You have mentioned "separation of powers" and "accountability" in relation to govt at local and national level, both of which are oxymorons. They don't exist in Ireland and this is why I think u are living in a dream world.

[mikehunt]

Someone should tell Enda he needs to press a button to make the lift go up and down.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34411889

I wonder if they could prosecute the lift for false imprisonment?

You just know there was nothing wrong with that lift. Denis O Brien wasn't there to tell him what to do, so even the easiest of decisions like pressing a button was beyond our dear leader.

[Maguire01]

So you're going off on a complete tangent now?? 

No, I certainly don't deny that there has been a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich under this govt (and indeed under previous governments, not just here but internationally)

To bring this back to your original point though in relation to this case, do I think that this govt is responsible for this particular case?? Not in the slightest. Some over-zealous clown of a civil servant is to blame - he and his bosses should have better things to do besides bringing something like this to court.

It is decisions made by the govt that are resulting in the City Council chasing people for money. Their revenues are reduced so they look elsewhere and go for easy targets like 90 year old ladies. There is absolutely no tangent here, govt policies are resulting in 90 year old ladies being chased.  (sarky smiley face right back at you. always an argument winner!!!!)

The €1,500 is to go towards Dublin City Council's legal costs for taking her to court. It doesn't even cover all their costs - it's a contribution. A net deficit for the Council in bringing this case. That's an odd way to boost revenue.

So they were right to chase her for 1500? Is this what you are saying.  Makes as much sense as your strategy to close the public deficit by implementing a super quango.

No, it isn't. Are you reading words that aren't there?

The legal costs are sunk. Getting the 1500 now is money in so could be called revenue or income or blackmail of a 90 year old. Your Irish Water defence was wafer thin so good luck trying to defend this latest public sector fcuk up. To repeat my point for those a bit slow on the pick up. Resources are tight because of govt policy. This directly leads to them chasing a 90 year old. The decision to go to court in the first place was incompetence. In boomier times they may not have decided to go after her for the 1500.

I'm not trying to defend the actions of the DCC. I'm just pointing out the holes in your contribution.

This council brought this woman to court to seek a criminal conviction for breach of planning laws, not for money. The woman lost her case and the council sought recovery of their legal costs from her. There's no way of interpreting that as a revenue generation move. At best, the council would break even.

If costs can be recovered they are not 'sunk'.

Legal costs I assume have already been paid to their solicitors. Are they recoverable from their solicitors? If not, then they are sunk costs. They are now chasing their losses. If they get the 1,500 from this 90 year old woman then  this will be money in which could thus be deemed to be "revenue", "income" or "cash from blackmail".

Now you're just making up new definitions. It doesn't matter who the cost is recovered from.

[Maguire01]

Seeing the  tabloidesque mock shock horror over the Planning case ( which is of course nothing to do with FG as Mac and Maguire pointed out to the 2 biggest eejits on the Board ) do the Planning Acts and Regulations lay down anything about
- minimum height of person below which Legislation doesn't apply
- Maximum age ditto
- Sex ditto.

If it's not right to prosecute a "little old lady" does it follow that only tall young men can be prosecuted?

A very valid point. Do we even know how many people not fitting into the "little old lady" category have been prosecuted? Is it just that this is the only one that has been highlighted because it was a "little old lady"?

[Maguire01]

Seeing the  tabloidesque mock shock horror over the Planning case ( which is of course nothing to do with FG as Mac and Maguire pointed out to the 2 biggest eejits on the Board ) do the Planning Acts and Regulations lay down anything about
- minimum height of person below which Legislation doesn't apply
- Maximum age ditto
- Sex ditto.

If it's not right to prosecute a "little old lady" does it follow that only tall young men can be prosecuted?

Why isn't everyone with a satellite dish at the front of their house brought to court?

Because it is govt policy to go after those who are most vulnerable. This approach feeds down through the ranks, something public sector "workers" obviously approve of.

Now get back to that trough!!!!

Do you know how many have been brought to court? Unless you can demonstrate that only 'vulnerable' people are brought to court, then you can't really ask that question.

[Maguire01]

Do you even read these articles or just look at the headlines??

She was taken to court in order to get her to remove a satellite dish. If it hadn't gone to court, there would have been no monetary return to the council. They weren't following her for cash.

At this point in time they are following her for the cash. Their decision to take her to court was typical public sector incompetence. Legal costs are now sunk costs. Chasing her for 1500 is now a revenue generating exercise.

A 'sunk cost' is, by definition, a cost that can't be recovered. The 1500 is to recover the legal costs.

Not to mention the man hours in wages and fees used up in chasing this 90 year old woman.
Go after the easy targets lads...

Absolutely fox but literally NOTHING to do with the current govt!!

Funding for these bozos comes from Department of Finance and ultimate responsibility for the councils lies with Alan Kelly's Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Well part of their funding comes from the LPT but regardless, are you seriously suggesting that the minister of environment should get involved or even be aware of this kind of stuff?? Come on, I don't believe for a second that you actually think that.

The day to day running of the country at a micro level is determined by civil servants who remain in place regardless of what party is in power.

I'm glad you've acknowledged that the government does actually play a role in all of this.
It's up to the department of local government to oversee how funds are being allocated and used (and wasted) - otherwise they aren't doing their job. Wasting judges/court time and taxpayers money into the bargain.

Do you really expect the government department to micro-manage local authorities? DCC has 63 Councillors. It's their job to set the policy for the Council. Maybe the Councillors should set a policy that planning law is not enforced?

[foxcommander]

It's all right now lads...I'm immune to shafts at this stage...

[mikehunt]

It's all right now lads...I'm immune to shafts at this stage...

Shamone.