The Fine Gael thread

[muppet]

That doesn't stop the faux outrage.

Where did they think the money was coming from?

Taxpayers forking out more to cover banking debts and mismanagement of public money causes faux outrage?
Next you'll be saying there's no health crisis.

The water was paid for in the past. The water will need to be paid for in the future.

You are outraged abut this.

Where did you think the money came from in the past? And where would you take the money from in the future, assuming you want us to have water?

I'd turn this around and ask you why you pay income tax in the first place, and such a high rate at that.
They've been splitting out environment and infrastructure charges in recent times (privatising bin charges for example).

So according to the government this is what the money goes on

• State Administration (sack them all)
• Security (why do we need this? Where do we plan to invade next?)
• Education (Still requires subsidies from taxpayer)
• Community, Culture and Environment (WTF!)
• Infrastructure (Now being paid for by new taxes)
• Social Programmes (New Years eve fireworks?)
• Foreign Affairs (Licking Merkels boots)
• Health and Children (You are joking)
• Economic Supports (Helping bankers)
• Servicing Debts (You betcha!)

I see.

Well done whoever is behind this. You got me. 

[Maguire01]

the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

If everyone fully complied and paid their water charges what was going to be done with the money that was moved from motor tax revenue? Are you saying that in times of recession local authorities are building slack in to their budget or that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

No, local authorities were supplying water, now they aren't, so the funding moves. Nothing to do with building slack.

I don't know what specifically would happen the motor tax revenue if IW became self finding through charges, but given that the country continues to run a deficit...

A deficit you seem perfectly happy to increase with another super quango.

Sometimes you have to spend money, unless you want to continue with a system that leaks at a rate of 40-50%, where people have to boil their water before they can use it, where there are water shortages and supply interruptions in Dublin...

You also seem to be missing the point that water charges were introduced to make IW self-funding (i.e. the full cost of running providing clean water and investing in infrastructure etc. being covered by charges), therefore not increasing the deficit.

[muppet]

the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

If everyone fully complied and paid their water charges what was going to be done with the money that was moved from motor tax revenue? Are you saying that in times of recession local authorities are building slack in to their budget or that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

No, local authorities were supplying water, now they aren't, so the funding moves. Nothing to do with building slack.

I don't know what specifically would happen the motor tax revenue if IW became self finding through charges, but given that the country continues to run a deficit...

A deficit you seem perfectly happy to increase with another super quango.

Sometimes you have to spend money, unless you want to continue with a system that leaks at a rate of 40-50%, where people have to boil their water before they can use it, where there are water shortages and supply interruptions in Dublin...

You also seem to be missing the point that water charges were introduced to make IW self-funding (i.e. the full cost of running providing clean water and investing in infrastructure etc. being covered by charges), therefore not increasing the deficit.

The great advantages of populism is that you never have to add anything up.

Until some time after you get elected.

[AZOffaly]

In fairness it's not just the anti water charge brigade that seem averse to mathematics, or at least providing figures.

[muppet]

In fairness it's not just the anti water charge brigade that seem averse to mathematics, or at least providing figures.

Absolutely, I was thinking particularly of Bertienomics when I posted. IW has been a disaster, but the taxpayer is on the hook either way.

It reminds me of Homer Simpson when he ran for election:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpYVqZM4NnA&spfreload=10

[foxcommander]

In fairness it's not just the anti water charge brigade that seem averse to mathematics, or at least providing figures.

Absolutely, I was thinking particularly of Bertienomics when I posted. IW has been a disaster, but the taxpayer is on the hook either way.

It reminds me of Homer Simpson when he ran for election:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpYVqZM4NnA&spfreload=10

I'd rather live in a dump than in a world run by snooty government officials garbage men

[Maguire01]

I really think the best way to stop this nonsense about people complaining for paying for services provided, as well as giving people some level of confidence that their taxes are actually going somewhere sensible, every state and semi state should publish their accounts.

I know this is very difficult because we have never done this, but if Irish Water, for example, were to say we require x billion income to provide and maintain the service, based on the following expenditure, then people would be able to sensibly challenge the expenditure, or else accept it and realise that more money was needed (or not) from somewhere. Then a specific water charge which provided the correct income would be understandable at least, if still not universally loved.

At budget time, every department issues what it needs, and why, so the basis for this report is already there.

Give some visibility and people might be more knowledgeable and less angry when increases are necessary. The fact that such transparency is NOT available makes me think the government knows we are squandering money, and rather than tackle that, they prefer to levy more charges to raise the necessary funds.

Ironically, in the case of IW, this information is already published. Water charges are determined by the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER). IW essentially submit a business plan to the CER, setting out how much they plan to spend and on what, and base their proposed charges on this. The CER reviews this and makes determines how much IW is allowed to charge.
See here: http://www.water.ie/docs/Irish-Water-Charges-Plan.pdf
And for the detail: http://www.cer.ie/docs/000979/CER14454%20WCP%20Revenue%20Response%20&%20Decision%20Paper.pdf

But you're deluded if you think that 99% of the population would have any interest in actually reading this stuff.

[AZOffaly]

Does this detail how much income they are currently receiving, and from where? It seems to be a proposal for revenue and expenditure going forward. And it is a good document. If we have one of these for every dept you should be able to see exactly where our taxes are going. From this it appears as if 46% of the 2 billion over 3 years was to come from government subvention which is presumably from other taxes collected. That's just under 1 billion. 31% from domestic customers new charges and the remainder from non domestic.

Thanks for posting that. I do like the relatively detailed expenditure line items.

[Maguire01]

Does this detail how much income they are currently receiving, and from where? It seems to be a proposal for revenue and expenditure going forward. And it is a good document. If we have one of these for every dept you should be able to see exactly where our taxes are going. From this it appears as if 46% of the 2 billion over 3 years was to come from government subvention which is presumably from other taxes collected. That's just under 1 billion. 31% from domestic customers new charges and the remainder from non domestic.

Thanks for posting that. I do like the relatively detailed expenditure line items.

The government subvention is due to the government rolling back on implementing full charges from the start.

But you won't get this for other government bodies, just where there's economic regulation.

As to how much they're currently receiving, I'm not sure; the detail may be on the CER website somewhere and the source would presumably be from the big pot of general taxation. I don't know whether it would be any more transparent than when under the local authorities.

I'm sure you'd agree however, that while you like the detail in those documents, the vast majority of people, including those out protesting, wouldn't be as interested.

[AZOffaly]

Probably not, but when you can show the real, actual need for investment via charges, it takes away a lot of the rationale for the protests.

These figures, in a simple i&e, where people could query the figures that make up the expenditure, would be very easy to explain and defend. Or should be. It would also have the benefit of the actual agencies realising they are going to have to explain their requirements.

[muppet]

Probably not, but when you can show the real, actual need for investment via charges, it takes away a lot of the rationale for the protests.

These figures, in a simple i&e, where people could query the figures that make up the expenditure, would be very easy to explain and defend. Or should be. It would also have the benefit of the actual agencies realising they are going to have to explain their requirements.

It is a nice idea, introducing facts to the political arena, but I can't see it catching on.

[foxcommander]

Olivia Mitchell. So if you disagree with policy you get a label?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op6qlBQ5Ha8

She needs a dictionary and a dose of cop on tablets.

[Hardy]

You really should be taking a good look at yourself when even Olivia Mitchell, even when she's making less sense than usual, makes more sense than you.

Hint: Policy wasn't even mentioned in that clip.
Hint eile: Check out the difference between disagreeing with policy and street yobbery.

[foxcommander]

You really should be taking a good look at yourself when even Olivia Mitchell, even when she's making less sense than usual, makes more sense than you.

Hint: Policy wasn't even mentioned in that clip.
Hint eile: Check out the difference between disagreeing with policy and street yobbery.

A bit too thick to read between the lines eh? Or maybe you just agree with Ms Mitchell.
The government policy, if you are too thick or ignorant to realise it, is to continually repeat the same words over and over again in relation to certain topics within the media. It's like they've been to some crappy one-day seminar with the spin doctors on language usage and now they're playing buzzword bingo.

Ms Mitchell mentioned the word "terrorists" to describe anyone who dares protest and raise their voice. Not clear enough?
Now justify her use of language.

Is having the truffle hunters from Templemore willing to raid peoples homes at 6am to arrest folk and detain them for questioning for hours at a time with no evidence ok?
I believe that was called internment in the 70's.

[Hardy]

Well why didn't you say that in the first place? I was indeed too thick, and way too ignorant to recognise the conspiracy you have so lucidly exposed. I hadn't a clue about the one-day seminar, the buzzword bingo, the victimisation of meek, innocent citizens who "dare to protest". I didn't know there was no evidence of any wrongdoing at Tallaght and nowhere in the media did I see the slightest mention of internment. Feckin' RTE, Irish Times, etc. in on the conspiracy too? Good lord. 

Can I apply to join your movement? What's it called again - Bowsies Against Democracy and Decency In Every Sense? Makes a grand acronym anyway. Can you send me on the handbook, so that I can learn OUR side's buzzwords. I loved "truffle hunters". If I could learn a few more like that I'm sure I'd make a great little fascist.