The Fine Gael thread

[mikehunt]

Are you suggesting we should burn the streets? Or bully little old men and women? I don't think there's anything particularly brave or principled about either of those things?

Who's being bullied? Pay this new tax to service state debts or go to jail.
Not advocating violence, just showing how hysterical the irish media got over one protest in comparison to other countries.

That's democracy. You pay taxes and you get services. I'm of the opinion we are already paying for our water via existing taxes, but I accept that you can't have it for free. It's a service and it costs money to run it.

But will the money gathered from all these taxes be used to service the items they are being collected for? Or will it be  used to service the banking debts? They have admitted that road tax has been used to fun irish water...so what money have they used for the roads???
This is why I find it incredible that so many seem to be so passive about it. What's the next squeeze they can get out of the population because it's going to happen. repeatedly.

Great little country to do business in.... if you're in the golden circle.

The irony being that full water charges would be solely used for water, rather than going anywhere near the government coffers. It's one place where the money collected would be ringfenced for its intended purpose.

By the way, it has been public knowledge since 1996 that the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

You're delusional if you think money raised was going to fund infrastructure.  Funding another quango was where that money was going.

[foxcommander]

That doesn't stop the faux outrage.

Where did they think the money was coming from?

Taxpayers forking out more to cover banking debts and mismanagement of public money causes faux outrage?
Next you'll be saying there's no health crisis.

[foxcommander]

You're delusional if you think money raised was going to fund infrastructure.  Funding another quango was where that money was going.

Correction : funding another quango which was sub-contracting services to an un-named media mogul was where that money was going.

[Maguire01]

That doesn't stop the faux outrage.

Where did they think the money was coming from?

Taxpayers forking out more to cover banking debts and mismanagement of public money causes faux outrage?
Next you'll be saying there's no health crisis.

I think he was referring specifically to your faux outrage at motor tax being used for water, given that this has been public knowledge for close to 20 years.

[muppet]

That doesn't stop the faux outrage.

Where did they think the money was coming from?

Taxpayers forking out more to cover banking debts and mismanagement of public money causes faux outrage?
Next you'll be saying there's no health crisis.

The water was paid for in the past. The water will need to be paid for in the future.

You are outraged abut this.

Where did you think the money came from in the past? And where would you take the money from in the future, assuming you want us to have water?

[Maguire01]

Are you suggesting we should burn the streets? Or bully little old men and women? I don't think there's anything particularly brave or principled about either of those things?

Who's being bullied? Pay this new tax to service state debts or go to jail.
Not advocating violence, just showing how hysterical the irish media got over one protest in comparison to other countries.

That's democracy. You pay taxes and you get services. I'm of the opinion we are already paying for our water via existing taxes, but I accept that you can't have it for free. It's a service and it costs money to run it.

But will the money gathered from all these taxes be used to service the items they are being collected for? Or will it be  used to service the banking debts? They have admitted that road tax has been used to fun irish water...so what money have they used for the roads???
This is why I find it incredible that so many seem to be so passive about it. What's the next squeeze they can get out of the population because it's going to happen. repeatedly.

Great little country to do business in.... if you're in the golden circle.

The irony being that full water charges would be solely used for water, rather than going anywhere near the government coffers. It's one place where the money collected would be ringfenced for its intended purpose.

By the way, it has been public knowledge since 1996 that the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

You're delusional if you think money raised was going to fund infrastructure.  Funding another quango was where that money was going.

That quango is in turn responsible for funding investment in infrastructure, treating water and waste water etc.

[foxcommander]

That doesn't stop the faux outrage.

Where did they think the money was coming from?

Taxpayers forking out more to cover banking debts and mismanagement of public money causes faux outrage?
Next you'll be saying there's no health crisis.

The water was paid for in the past. The water will need to be paid for in the future.

You are outraged abut this.

Where did you think the money came from in the past? And where would you take the money from in the future, assuming you want us to have water?

I'd turn this around and ask you why you pay income tax in the first place, and such a high rate at that.
They've been splitting out environment and infrastructure charges in recent times (privatising bin charges for example).

So according to the government this is what the money goes on

• State Administration (sack them all)
• Security (why do we need this? Where do we plan to invade next?)
• Education (Still requires subsidies from taxpayer)
• Community, Culture and Environment (WTF!)
• Infrastructure (Now being paid for by new taxes)
• Social Programmes (New Years eve fireworks?)
• Foreign Affairs (Licking Merkels boots)
• Health and Children (You are joking)
• Economic Supports (Helping bankers)
• Servicing Debts (You betcha!)

[Maguire01]

Bin charges are "infrastructure"?

[mikehunt]

the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

If everyone fully complied and paid their water charges what was going to be done with the money that was moved from motor tax revenue? Are you saying that in times of recession local authorities are building slack in to their budget or that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

[Maguire01]

the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

If everyone fully complied and paid their water charges what was going to be done with the money that was moved from motor tax revenue? Are you saying that in times of recession local authorities are building slack in to their budget or that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

No, local authorities were supplying water, now they aren't, so the funding moves. Nothing to do with building slack.

I don't know what specifically would happen the motor tax revenue if IW became self finding through charges, but given that the country continues to run a deficit...

[mikehunt]

the motor tax was to fund the local authorities, as a replacement to water charges at that time. As local authorities are no longer responsible for funding water, and in the absence of full water charges, that money moves to Irish Water.

If everyone fully complied and paid their water charges what was going to be done with the money that was moved from motor tax revenue? Are you saying that in times of recession local authorities are building slack in to their budget or that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

No, local authorities were supplying water, now they aren't, so the funding moves. Nothing to do with building slack.

I don't know what specifically would happen the motor tax revenue if IW became self finding through charges, but given that the country continues to run a deficit...

A deficit you seem perfectly happy to increase with another super quango.

[AZOffaly]

Can I ask a really dumb question? Why doesn't motor tax fund investments in our road and transport infrastructure? It's labyrinthine at times.

I really think the best way to stop this nonsense about people complaining for paying for services provided, as well as giving people some level of confidence that their taxes are actually going somewhere sensible, every state and semi state should publish their accounts.

I know this is very difficult because we have never done this, but if Irish Water, for example, were to say we require x billion income to provide and maintain the service, based on the following expenditure, then people would be able to sensibly challenge the expenditure, or else accept it and realise that more money was needed (or not) from somewhere. Then a specific water charge which provided the correct income would be understandable at least, if still not universally loved.

At budget time, every department issues what it needs, and why, so the basis for this report is already there.

Give some visibility and people might be more knowledgeable and less angry when increases are necessary. The fact that such transparency is NOT available makes me think the government knows we are squandering money, and rather than tackle that, they prefer to levy more charges to raise the necessary funds.

[Hardy]

What, so that the barbers, taxi-drivers and Joeduffy jockeys would have to use facts? Couldn't work.

[mikehunt]

What, so that the barbers, taxi-drivers and Joeduffy jockeys would have to use facts? Couldn't work.

Is Hardy short for "Hard of learning"?

[Rossfan]

What, so that the barbers, taxi-drivers and Joeduffy jockeys would have to use facts? Couldn't work.

Brilliant 
Which of the above are Mikehunt and Foxcommander I wonder?