The Fine Gael thread

[Maguire01]

Yet the right of every individual in Ireland to have access to free clean drinking water is being taken away because the government can't afford to pay for water services?

A right to free clean drinking water? Really? Is this a new thing?

[mikehunt]

Do the Blueshirts not see the irony in getting the Stasi to arrest Paul Murphy?

[muppet]

Well given that this relates to a year where there were no water charges, how did you think it was funded?
And until water is fully funded through charges, it will continue to be funded from other taxes. What did you expect?

That this comes as a surprise to you speaks volumes.

Many of those burdening us with their rhetoric aren't burdening themselves with any thinking.

The government certainly aren't burdening themselves with thinking. They just do as they are told.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/we-didnt-stab-the-greeks-in-back-on-debt-coveney-30975400.html

Why wouldn't you look for a write-down? Please answer if you can.

Yet the right of every individual in Ireland to have access to free clean drinking water is being taken away because the government can't afford to pay for water services? erm.....

Taking money earmarked for road improvements and maintenance and taking money from property taxes to set up an entity which will subject the general population to a new form of tax is acceptable?

You can't say the situation isn't a little fuc'd up but let's go with the classic irish shrug and "sure what can we do".

The time to look for a write-down was the time when we had the greatest leverage. That was before the bank guarantee and, to a far lesser extant, when we were in secret negotiations with the Troika on a bailout with 6 months cash. The latter fell apart when Honohan phoned RTE (with his ECB hat on) and completely undermined any leverage we had.

Looking for a write-down now is pointless, unless you want to fool some dim-witted voters and then do a u-turn after being elected.

Greece are in a different situation. Middle class people are leaving their children in orphanages. But regardless, they won't get a write down. If you think the powers that be in Europe are going to baulk at reckless populism you will learn fast. If the new Government sticks to its guns I predict Greece will be launched from the Euro all the way back to the 3rd World.

Irish people cheering for the Greek Government need their heads examined. The Greeks got themselves into debt by, amongst other generous public spending, giving everyone pensions at 61. The Greeks took to the streets when they raised it to 63. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_generous_pensions

The Irish got themselves into debt, mainly on the instruction of the ECB to save Anglo from going under. Put it this way, the Greeks are paying their own debt while we are paying private bank debt that has nothing to do with the vast majority of us.

A tiny anarchic part of me is fascinated with the behaviour of the Greeks, but the head says they are f*cked and we would be mad to follow suit.

[mikehunt]

Greek Civil Servants used to drive around in Ferrari's. Poor Irish Civil Servants have to make do with BMW's. Supporting Greece in their battle with the ECB is the equivalent of sticking a rusty blade in your eye unless you're a civil servant in which case you'll be hoping Greeks get their way and the unfunded gravy train starts accelerating again.

[muppet]

Greek Civil Servants used to drive around in Ferrari's. Poor Irish Civil Servants have to make do with BMW's. Supporting Greece in their battle with the ECB is the equivalent of sticking a rusty blade in your eye unless you're a civil servant in which case you'll be hoping Greeks get their way and the unfunded gravy train starts accelerating again.

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

[StephenC]

Greek Civil Servants used to drive around in Ferrari's. Poor Irish Civil Servants have to make do with BMW's. Supporting Greece in their battle with the ECB is the equivalent of sticking a rusty blade in your eye unless you're a civil servant in which case you'll be hoping Greeks get their way and the unfunded gravy train starts accelerating again.

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

That's a pretty good idea. Has it been implemented in any country previously?

[deiseach]

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

If you were king, would you seriously implement this?

[Billys Boots]

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

If you were king, would you seriously implement this?

Just to throw in my tuppenceworth - given that Revenue seem incapable of accurately forecasting annual income, how would you agree payroll amounts in advance?  Or would it be annually in arrears?

[mikehunt]

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

If you were king, would you seriously implement this?

Just to throw in my tuppenceworth - given that Revenue seem incapable of accurately forecasting annual income, how would you agree payroll amounts in advance?  Or would it be annually in arrears?

The argument that is used to prevent change in the public service is that they would all go out on strike. The fact that most of them do sfa seems to be lost on the people making this argument.

[armaghniac]

Greek Civil Servants used to drive around in Ferrari's. Poor Irish Civil Servants have to make do with BMW's. Supporting Greece in their battle with the ECB is the equivalent of sticking a rusty blade in your eye unless you're a civil servant in which case you'll be hoping Greeks get their way and the unfunded gravy train starts accelerating again.

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

This type of global simplistic ratio is total horse manure, as it is completely devoid of any analysis as to what the proper ratio should be. You could hire more home helps, a large part of the cost might be labour but it might still be the right thing to do.

[deiseach]

The argument that is used to prevent change in the public service is that they would all go out on strike. The fact that most of them do sfa seems to be lost on the people making this argument.

I was more concerned that such a policy would be procyclical. But feel free to argue against points that are not being made.

[mikehunt]

The argument that is used to prevent change in the public service is that they would all go out on strike. The fact that most of them do sfa seems to be lost on the people making this argument.

I was more concerned that such a policy would be procyclical. But feel free to argue against points that are not being made.

Wasn't saying it was your argument, i was just making a general response to the pay discussion.

[muppet]

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

If you were king, would you seriously implement this?

Just to throw in my tuppenceworth - given that Revenue seem incapable of accurately forecasting annual income, how would you agree payroll amounts in advance?  Or would it be annually in arrears?

Annually in arrears would obviously work better. It would put a lag on pay adjustments, but at least it removes the problem you mention. Ideally you would hope for accurate forecasts and go on that basis so you could give rises if the (hopefully accurate) forecast was good.

Within the system you would reward performance as well which might make things a bit more competitive and encourage whistle blowers to flag the useless.

As for the if I were king question, that is the current position. Public Service is king and it rewards its current elite very well.

[muppet]

Greek Civil Servants used to drive around in Ferrari's. Poor Irish Civil Servants have to make do with BMW's. Supporting Greece in their battle with the ECB is the equivalent of sticking a rusty blade in your eye unless you're a civil servant in which case you'll be hoping Greeks get their way and the unfunded gravy train starts accelerating again.

A good start would be a strict financial budgetary rule limiting public salaries to a percentage of Government revenue.

How does 1/3rd sound? Most businesses wouldn't have payroll costs has high as that so why should the Government get away with it? That way the unions could fight it out amongst themselves.

This type of global simplistic ratio is total horse manure, as it is completely devoid of any analysis as to what the proper ratio should be. You could hire more home helps, a large part of the cost might be labour but it might still be the right thing to do.

Are you against a ratio, or against throwing out a number as an example of what such a ratio might be?

[deiseach]

As for the if I were king question, that is the current position. Public Service is king and it rewards its current elite very well.

That's not an answer to the question.