The Fine Gael thread

[Maguire01]

We are only talking about water charges here and it is a significant issue. Is it any less than gay rights to marraige? Etc . I'd say it's more important and affects exponentially more people- all people. So the feet on the street show that my assessment is correct.
People , the majority I'd say, want a referendum and don't want water charges.

Again, totally missing the point. Whether marriage equality is more or less significant than water charges is totally irrelevant.

The courts have deemed that same sex marriage is unconstitutional and therefore in order to legislate for it, a change the Constitution is required. Any change to the constitution requires a referendum.
The introduction of water charges is not unconstitutional, therefore there is no requirement for a referendum.

It's that straightforward.

[muppet]

Latest poll:

[lynchbhoy]

We are only talking about water charges here and it is a significant issue. Is it any less than gay rights to marraige? Etc . I'd say it's more important and affects exponentially more people- all people. So the feet on the street show that my assessment is correct.
People , the majority I'd say, want a referendum and don't want water charges.

Again, totally missing the point. Whether marriage equality is more or less significant than water charges is totally irrelevant.

The courts have deemed that same sex marriage is unconstitutional and therefore in order to legislate for it, a change the Constitution is required. Any change to the constitution requires a referendum.
The introduction of water charges is not unconstitutional, therefore there is no requirement for a referendum.

It's that straightforward.

You've agreed with the points I was making that the president had the ability to stop the bill and that such a referendum would be defeated.

Unconstitutional due to being Undemocratic

[Maguire01]

We are only talking about water charges here and it is a significant issue. Is it any less than gay rights to marraige? Etc . I'd say it's more important and affects exponentially more people- all people. So the feet on the street show that my assessment is correct.
People , the majority I'd say, want a referendum and don't want water charges.

Again, totally missing the point. Whether marriage equality is more or less significant than water charges is totally irrelevant.

The courts have deemed that same sex marriage is unconstitutional and therefore in order to legislate for it, a change the Constitution is required. Any change to the constitution requires a referendum.
The introduction of water charges is not unconstitutional, therefore there is no requirement for a referendum.

It's that straightforward.

You've agreed with the points I was making that the president had the ability to stop the bill and that such a referendum would be defeated.

Unconstitutional due to being Undemocratic

I didn't agree that the President could stop the bill. He could delay a bill under certain circumstances and refer it to the Supreme Court. Those circumstances didn't exist for this bill.

And that's not what unconstitutional means. If you can't grasp that, there's little point.

[Mayo4Sam]

As I said Lar , the project has been a disaster from the start inc communication.
Btw there should be no bonuses etc. These apart from sales dept's are uncommon and unnecessary in salaried industry.
The first thing that needs done is to fix the disasterous leaky water pipe system in Dublin and beyond

Lynchbhoy, the reason that Irish Water is full of ex-public servants/semi-staters is because they were TUPE'd in, their jobs were moved from one body to the other and as such that body had to take on the employees, that law is there to protect workers rights. It's the exact same reason that there are bonuses in IW, some of the contracts would have had bonuses (going back to Bertie's give them what they want to shut them up days) and these had to be protected under TUPE also.

Also the president could only agree with the council of state (ex taoisigh and Chief justices) to send the law for judisical review, check its constitutionality. After this the law could never again be questioned in court. This has happened a handful of times in the state, clearly they did not feel it was unconstitutional.

As someone said, a lot of misinformed people

[Rossfan]

2 in particular here and those scumbags who abused Ml D.

[lynchbhoy]

As I said Lar , the project has been a disaster from the start inc communication.
Btw there should be no bonuses etc. These apart from sales dept's are uncommon and unnecessary in salaried industry.
The first thing that needs done is to fix the disasterous leaky water pipe system in Dublin and beyond

Lynchbhoy, the reason that Irish Water is full of ex-public servants/semi-staters is because they were TUPE'd in, their jobs were moved from one body to the other and as such that body had to take on the employees, that law is there to protect workers rights. It's the exact same reason that there are bonuses in IW, some of the contracts would have had bonuses (going back to Bertie's give them what they want to shut them up days) and these had to be protected under TUPE also.

Also the president could only agree with the council of state (ex taoisigh and Chief justices) to send the law for judisical review, check its constitutionality. After this the law could never again be questioned in court. This has happened a handful of times in the state, clearly they did not feel it was unconstitutional.

As someone said, a lot of misinformed people

It didn't have to be staffed by ex public servants though!
It was /is a new entity!

For all the word play , it is not the will of the people.
But I've paid! But tell me that this would be passed by a referendum!!!!!!
Then carry on with any discussion!
Plenty here just don't get the simple truth!

[armaghniac]

It would be ridiculous to set up Irish Water without hiring the people currently running the system, what would you then do with these people.

[lynchbhoy]

It would be ridiculous to set up Irish Water without hiring the people currently running the system, what would you then do with these people.

Same as you do in normal commercial business ( what should happen in aerlingus)
Cherry pick the cream to lead the company and hire additional baggage free staff in to work hard and efficiently

Those who don't make the cut - do what happens all other public sector workers, subsume them into departments that require staff.
Either that or they quit.
That this question is even coming up shows how much the tail wags the dog in too much of Irish 'work culture'. Too many sheep following blindly and no progressive thinking or leadership save from a few like Michael Oleary Dermot Desmond etc.

[Lar Naparka]

It would be ridiculous to set up Irish Water without hiring the people currently running the system, what would you then do with these people.

That is precisely the problem.
The answer appears to be nothing!
From what was said when the controversy arose was that a few thousand ex-Bord Gais employees would be seconded to Irish Water even though there was no work for them. They'd be on the payroll but idle until they retired.
That didn't go down well with the public at large.

[Franko]

As I said Lar , the project has been a disaster from the start inc communication.
Btw there should be no bonuses etc. These apart from sales dept's are uncommon and unnecessary in salaried industry.
The first thing that needs done is to fix the disasterous leaky water pipe system in Dublin and beyond

Lynchbhoy, the reason that Irish Water is full of ex-public servants/semi-staters is because they were TUPE'd in, their jobs were moved from one body to the other and as such that body had to take on the employees, that law is there to protect workers rights. It's the exact same reason that there are bonuses in IW, some of the contracts would have had bonuses (going back to Bertie's give them what they want to shut them up days) and these had to be protected under TUPE also.

Also the president could only agree with the council of state (ex taoisigh and Chief justices) to send the law for judisical review, check its constitutionality. After this the law could never again be questioned in court. This has happened a handful of times in the state, clearly they did not feel it was unconstitutional.

As someone said, a lot of misinformed people

It didn't have to be staffed by ex public servants though!
It was /is a new entity!

For all the word play , it is not the will of the people.
But I've paid! But tell me that this would be passed by a referendum!!!!!!
Then carry on with any discussion!
Plenty here just don't get the simple truth!

It's you that doesn't get the simple truth. The president CAN NOT stop a bill. CAN NOT STOP A BILL. Simple as. Stop talking shite about referenda and 'will of the people'. You are spewing bullshit. You elected a party to govern you that promised to bring in water charges in their manifesto. Maguire said it wouldn't pass if put to the people in your mythical referendum so please give over about it. Jaysus but you can be an awful scunderin hoor.

[foxcommander]

This had got me thinking about the last election. The people of Roscommon were told that their local A&E wouldn't be closed down by politicians from a particular party who get duly elected on the back of this promise.

The A&E closed. The voters were lied to by their representatives of this party and now they have to wait another 4 years for democracy. In the meantime their elected representatives can do whatever they like. Please feel free to point out how this is the democratic process at work.

There is where the problem lies. You rely on elected politicians to do the right thing which they tend not to once they get into power. There is no accountability for their actions and no-one to stop them. Fine Gael promised in their manifesto that this was one of the issues to be tackled.

Franko, as I have pointed out water charges were mentioned in the manifesto, down the back of the booklet and very ambiguous.

What surprises me most about the 26 county irish population is the willingness to accept the orders of the rulers over and over again. Those who question or challenge these elite are "scumbags" (as viewed by rossfan). It's pretty much Stockholm Syndrome. No wonder Britain had no issue overrunning the place.

[Hardy]

This had got me thinking about the last election. The people of Roscommon were told that their local A&E wouldn't be closed down by politicians from a particular party who get duly elected on the back of this promise.

The A&E closed. The voters were lied to by their representatives of this party and now they have to wait another 4 years for democracy. In the meantime their elected representatives can do whatever they like. Please feel free to point out how this is the democratic process at work.

Please feel free to point out how the appropriate response to a failure to implement measures promised in the manifesto is to campaign against the implementation of a measure promised in the manifesto.

[Mayo4Sam]

It would be ridiculous to set up Irish Water without hiring the people currently running the system, what would you then do with these people.

Same as you do in normal commercial business ( what should happen in aerlingus)
Cherry pick the cream to lead the company and hire additional baggage free staff in to work hard and efficiently

Those who don't make the cut - do what happens all other public sector workers, subsume them into departments that require staff.
Either that or they quit.
That this question is even coming up shows how much the tail wags the dog in too much of Irish 'work culture'. Too many sheep following blindly and no progressive thinking or leadership save from a few like Michael Oleary Dermot Desmond etc.

Lynchbhoy, you're not really grasping the TUPE concept. Whether you are public or private sector and you take over a business you are legally obliged to take the staff that comes with them, it's the law. You can't cherry pick, you can't take half, you have to take all, look it up, it's the LAW!

What Micheal O'Leary would do is make half of them redundant, the government doesn't do compulsory redundancy, it would lead to all out strikes from the public sector, something we can't afford. So they will probably give voluntary redundancy, the problem there is it's never the useless f**kers that take that, only the good ones who will get a job elsewhere.

[Tubberman]

It would be ridiculous to set up Irish Water without hiring the people currently running the system, what would you then do with these people.

Same as you do in normal commercial business ( what should happen in aerlingus)
Cherry pick the cream to lead the company and hire additional baggage free staff in to work hard and efficiently

Those who don't make the cut - do what happens all other public sector workers, subsume them into departments that require staff.
Either that or they quit.
That this question is even coming up shows how much the tail wags the dog in too much of Irish 'work culture'. Too many sheep following blindly and no progressive thinking or leadership save from a few like Michael Oleary Dermot Desmond etc.

Lynchbhoy, you're not really grasping the TUPE concept. Whether you are public or private sector and you take over a business you are legally obliged to take the staff that comes with them, it's the law. You can't cherry pick, you can't take half, you have to take all, look it up, it's the LAW!

What Micheal O'Leary would do is make half of them redundant, the government doesn't do compulsory redundancy, it would lead to all out strikes from the public sector, something we can't afford. So they will probably give voluntary redundancy, the problem there is it's never the useless f**kers that take that, only the good ones who will get a job elsewhere.

Precisely! And you're left with the bone-idle fckers who know they're on a good number and won't get it as cushy anywhere else.