The Fine Gael thread

[foxcommander]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

[weareros]

People said the same about Luas yet it's clearly better than CIE. Imagine if it was left to CIE to create that system. We've had Irish water publically run and it's a system where half the water is lost to leaks and we live in constant fear of getting a dose of the scutters from drinking a glass.

[foxcommander]

People said the same about Luas yet it's clearly better than CIE. Imagine if it was left to CIE to create that system. We've had Irish water publically run and it's a system where half the water is lost to leaks and we live in constant fear of getting a dose of the scutters from drinking a glass.

Big difference being that the luas isn't a natural resource that people use on a daily basis as a necessity - and they were able to start from scratch (and couldn't even get that right to ensure both sides of the luas actually joined at a point)

[weareros]

People said the same about Luas yet it's clearly better than CIE. Imagine if it was left to CIE to create that system. We've had Irish water publically run and it's a system where half the water is lost to leaks and we live in constant fear of getting a dose of the scutters from drinking a glass.

Big difference being that the luas isn't a natural resource that people use on a daily basis as a necessity - and they were able to start from scratch (and couldn't even get that right to ensure both sides of the luas actually joined at a point)

Well in my county the water has been undrinkable for years. By the way lots of things are necessities including food, clothes, warmth, a roof over my head. We have a fair few in this country that expect the taxpayer to pay for all  their necessities. Maybe time for a referendum for taxpayers to see what they no longer want to fund.

[Maguire01]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

The abuse given Higgins has no relevance here

Do you not think that the will of the majority of the people should not be adhered to?
If it wasn't a majority then why no referendum to quell all this?

We are not talking about every piece of legislation - just the water one

But why just the water one? If you want to be sure of majority consent, then why not every bill? There's no logic to that argument.

The fact remains that the majority of people voted for parties that said they would introduce water charges.

[Maguire01]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

[lynchbhoy]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

The abuse given Higgins has no relevance here

Do you not think that the will of the majority of the people should not be adhered to?
If it wasn't a majority then why no referendum to quell all this?

We are not talking about every piece of legislation - just the water one

But why just the water one? If you want to be sure of majority consent, then why not every bill? There's no logic to that argument.

The fact remains that the majority of people voted for parties that said they would introduce water charges.

If you had asked me the question, I'd have said fg promised to not bring in water charges in their pre election manifesto. From your reply their it might appear that's incorrect.

We are only talking about water charges here and it is a significant issue. Is it any less than gay rights to marraige? Etc . I'd say it's more important and affects exponentially more people- all people. So the feet on the street show that my assessment is correct.
People , the majority I'd say, want a referendum and don't want water charges.

[armaghniac]

Marriage is a fundamental unit of society and fiddling with it affects everyone. Whether water is paid as a separate charge or lumped in with tax isn't of any great importance in the overall scheme of things.

[lynchbhoy]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

Lol
You should think about that!!

The public sector /semi-state companies have such a great track record of service and managing their offerings ..... So you aren't setting high expectations here for be by reading that!!
Actually it's quite demotivating!!

If set up properly and ran properly okie a business, with proper waged salaries and none of this bonus rubbish and scurrilous working contract practices in the other semi states/public sector that has been applied to the contracts of Irish water workers..... Plus that most water employees are ex public sector/semi state employees ... Well it's fatally flawed and holed beneath the water line already!

What part of this whole undertaking was done any way properly or professionally?
It has been a farce! From project requirements gathering, funding, ott consultants, over and under speccing things, poor company structure, poor employee contract /work/pay structure-
Then the wonderful customer campaign!

How not to do it !!!..... This would be the example case to all future undertakings!

Don't even joke about future privatization!!

I know you are only standing up for your fg ! But it has been a fiasco from start to finish - irrespective of any good intentions.

[lynchbhoy]

Marriage is a fundamental unit of society and fiddling with it affects everyone. Whether water is paid as a separate charge or lumped in with tax isn't of any great importance in the overall scheme of things.

You won't die from not getting married

So while I understand your point

I can't agree that it is anyway near as important

[Lar Naparka]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

I totally agree with that and I imagine that the rest of the civilised world, with the singular exception   of the board of Irish Water and  the present coalition partners, also concur.
I think it's fair to assume that in the absence of facts, rumours will abound whenever a matter of public concern arises and neither of the guilty parties took any heed whatsoever of the publics' concerns and if ever we had a case of talking down rather than talking to the Plain People of Ireland, this was it.

We heard more about the levels of bonuses and perks but sweet damn all justification for all or any of this. Bedad, there were going to be goodies for everyone including those whose work was not satisfactory. Now, whether or not we were getting the fullls tory is immeterial, the fact is that no one tried to justify the pay scales while the mood of public apprehension and anger mounted by the day.
In no particular we found out that €50 m had been spent on software development. No attempt was made to put this figure in context or to attempt to justify the expenditure in any way. We were told the cost and that was it. Full stop!
We were also told that €250 m had been spent on hiring special advisers and also I think on infrastructural development. The Paul Murphys and the RB Barretts of this world went to town on those figures and again there was no counter argument forthcoming.
Then we were told that around 6 or 7,000 ex-employees of Bord Gais were being added to the payroll. There was no work for them but John Tierney made one of his (very) rare statements when he announced that we needn't worry as the majority were approaching pension age and would be gone inside 5 or 6 years.
Somewhere along the line, we found out that it would cost €181 per hour if an Irish Water tradesman was called out to fix a leak in one's garden, rising to €256 at weekends. again, no govt or board spokesperson tried to justify the charges.
Of course the anti-water charge campaigners were going to town in their criticisms of what was going on and who could blame them?
Then to cap it all, the tariffs to be charged were arrived at, not by a reasoned analysis of what was needed and how much people could realistically afford to pay, but after a last-minute bout of political horse trading between FG and Labour just before the local elections.
So Enda said that Paddy is not for turning but he's finding out to his cost that he assumed a little too much about the gullibility and subservience of the public at large.

[lynchbhoy]

As I said Lar , the project has been a disaster from the start inc communication.
Btw there should be no bonuses etc. These apart from sales dept's are uncommon and unnecessary in salaried industry.
The first thing that needs done is to fix the disasterous leaky water pipe system in Dublin and beyond

[Maguire01]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

Lol
You should think about that!!

The public sector /semi-state companies have such a great track record of service and managing their offerings ..... So you aren't setting high expectations here for be by reading that!!
Actually it's quite demotivating!!

If set up properly and ran properly okie a business, with proper waged salaries and none of this bonus rubbish and scurrilous working contract practices in the other semi states/public sector that has been applied to the contracts of Irish water workers..... Plus that most water employees are ex public sector/semi state employees ... Well it's fatally flawed and holed beneath the water line already!

What part of this whole undertaking was done any way properly or professionally?
It has been a farce! From project requirements gathering, funding, ott consultants, over and under speccing things, poor company structure, poor employee contract /work/pay structure-
Then the wonderful customer campaign!

How not to do it !!!..... This would be the example case to all future undertakings!

Don't even joke about future privatization!!

I know you are only standing up for your fg ! But it has been a fiasco from start to finish - irrespective of any good intentions.

You're starting a completely new debate. Probably to deflect from your lack of understanding on the point that was being discussed. Although i'm not clear where you're going - it sounds like an argument for privatisation, given your low opinion/expectations of the public sector and semi-states.

And I have never argued that this whole issue was well handled - it clearly hasn't. I'm in no way standing up for FG - I think they've been an absolute disaster in this regard. Your attempt to misrepresent me is a cheap shot. All i've been doing on this discussion is pointing out the constitutional position.

[lynchbhoy]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

Lol
You should think about that!!

The public sector /semi-state companies have such a great track record of service and managing their offerings ..... So you aren't setting high expectations here for be by reading that!!
Actually it's quite demotivating!!

If set up properly and ran properly okie a business, with proper waged salaries and none of this bonus rubbish and scurrilous working contract practices in the other semi states/public sector that has been applied to the contracts of Irish water workers..... Plus that most water employees are ex public sector/semi state employees ... Well it's fatally flawed and holed beneath the water line already!

What part of this whole undertaking was done any way properly or professionally?
It has been a farce! From project requirements gathering, funding, ott consultants, over and under speccing things, poor company structure, poor employee contract /work/pay structure-
Then the wonderful customer campaign!

How not to do it !!!..... This would be the example case to all future undertakings!

Don't even joke about future privatization!!

I know you are only standing up for your fg ! But it has been a fiasco from start to finish - irrespective of any good intentions.

You're starting a completely new debate. Probably to deflect from your lack of understanding on the point that was being discussed. Although i'm not clear where you're going - it sounds like an argument for privatisation, given your low opinion/expectations of the public sector and semi-states.

And I have never argued that this whole issue was well handled - it clearly hasn't. I'm in no way standing up for FG - I think they've been an absolute disaster in this regard. Your attempt to misrepresent me is a cheap shot. All i've been doing on this discussion is pointing out the constitutional position.

You brought up privatization not me - so if anyone was deflecting it's you!
You've admitted my point that Higgins had alternatives.
But do you think that 'if' a referendum about the water charges came up - would it be defeated by the majority or not?

[Maguire01]

So you now admit he could have stopped it and there were ways and means of stopping the bill a

There was no reason to stop it.! You can't be stopping every minor revenue measure approved by the two houses of the Oireachtas because people are ranting about it.

I'd be ok with it but I'd still like to see root and branch clear out if the deadwood in public sector /civil service

Unless people vote for a government that will do this, it won't happen. Government carefully avoids any value or performance measures as it might inhibit pet projects. When pay talks resume, performance won't be a big item.

It isn't a minor revenue measure though is it!
Do you think it would get through a referendum?

Seriously, apply that test to every piece of legislation that would result in a tax rise, new charge etc.
How many would pass a referendum?

Making the water charge go through a referendum might actually force the entity to be set up correctly in the first place on a non-profit basis. It should be FOR the people at cost. You would have better chance of buy-in if you thought you weren't been taken for another ride, just like the property tax (another made-up charge to penalise home owners) and the bailout.

One of the biggest issues is that this resource is being sold off to private companies to make money (Corrib gas fields or M50 toll bridge anyone?). This is why it should be put to a vote to allow the local councils to relinquish control of a natural resource that is being handed over to a dodgy third party who report bonus issues before they even start. This resource belongs to the people, not the government. Why shouldn't they have a say?

I did love in the FG manifesto how they informed that they would bring in the water charges once local councils handed over control of water supplies. There wasn't even going to be a debate. DO'B probably had agreed this years ago.

Seriously, the extent to which people are mis-informed on Irish Water is unbelievable.

Irish Water is NOT a private company. It is owned by the state. If there are any 'profits', they'll stay within the company and be used to invest in the network. There are no private shareholders. It's like An Post, CIE/Bus Eireann.... it's in public ownership.

Of course there is the possibility that Irish Water could be privatised at some point in the future (there is legislation to prevent this, but that legislation could be over-turned). It's something i'd strongly oppose. But it's a totally separate argument.

Centralising the management of water, taking it away from being managed by individual local councils made sense. Why would you manage water within small local boundaries? 34 different organisations trying to manage water and maintain infrastructure in a country the size of Ireland?

Lol
You should think about that!!

The public sector /semi-state companies have such a great track record of service and managing their offerings ..... So you aren't setting high expectations here for be by reading that!!
Actually it's quite demotivating!!

If set up properly and ran properly okie a business, with proper waged salaries and none of this bonus rubbish and scurrilous working contract practices in the other semi states/public sector that has been applied to the contracts of Irish water workers..... Plus that most water employees are ex public sector/semi state employees ... Well it's fatally flawed and holed beneath the water line already!

What part of this whole undertaking was done any way properly or professionally?
It has been a farce! From project requirements gathering, funding, ott consultants, over and under speccing things, poor company structure, poor employee contract /work/pay structure-
Then the wonderful customer campaign!

How not to do it !!!..... This would be the example case to all future undertakings!

Don't even joke about future privatization!!

I know you are only standing up for your fg ! But it has been a fiasco from start to finish - irrespective of any good intentions.

You're starting a completely new debate. Probably to deflect from your lack of understanding on the point that was being discussed. Although i'm not clear where you're going - it sounds like an argument for privatisation, given your low opinion/expectations of the public sector and semi-states.

And I have never argued that this whole issue was well handled - it clearly hasn't. I'm in no way standing up for FG - I think they've been an absolute disaster in this regard. Your attempt to misrepresent me is a cheap shot. All i've been doing on this discussion is pointing out the constitutional position.

You brought up privatization not me - so if anyone was deflecting it's you!
You've admitted my point that Higgins had alternatives.
But do you think that 'if' a referendum about the water charges came up - would it be defeated by the majority or not?

I made reference to privatisation in response to another poster who seemed to be of the opinion that Irish Water operating to make profits for private shareholders.

In general terms, the President has a number of options when presented with a bill. In reality, in this situation, he had one option.

A referendum on water charges would no doubt be defeated. As would a referendum on just about every tax or charge. But that's totally irrelevant, so I don't know why you persist with it.