The Fine Gael thread

[muppet]

If the next government is beholding to independents then it will both be a disaster and not last very long, a government needs a clear strategy.

IMO FG will be the largest party again after the next election, I'd agree with Deiseach they'll lose that last seat in constituencies like Mayo but there were fewer of those than you think Deiseach, certainly by the scale FF set in the previous election.
Next will probably be SF, although there's a question about their support in rural areas, especially in the west, Midlands and South. And then FF, probably somewhere level with SF.
Labour will be wiped out pretty much leaving them without the seats to go into government with FG. Which leaves a FG-FF government as the most likely.

This is the most logical outcome, which means there isn't a hope in hell of it happening.

TBH it is a terrible state of affairs. You can't put FF back in after what they did. But equally putting FG &/or Labour back sends completely the wrong message regarding their performance in Government.

Maybe we should fill the place with independents knowing that in that event, all the party leaders and their senior colleagues would all have to resign. Then after the independents fail to agree anything, have another election. Of course the EU could do what they did in Italy and appoint someone like Patrick Honohan and tell us to like it or lump it.

[AZOffaly]

If we were playing 'Fantasy Government' and somehow coming up with a series of government ministers, answerable to a wider house of jennets such as the Seanad, I wonder what sort of government we'd end up with? In essence I'm talking about a national election for the main Governmental posts, where the winners fill those posts and those posts only. If you lose that race, you are out of the picture altogether. They could maintain their party affiliations, but each minister appointed would have full responsibility of where the budget for that department was spent.

Then maybe once a week, each minister has to attend the oireachteas and give a presentation on what's going on in their department, and they can be questioned by that house. Whether that's the Seanad, or a set of 'best runners up' in the ministerial races.

Let's say you had this voting slip, no matter what part of Ireland you lived in, who would you vote for. The Tainiste would be automatically the minister with the highest vote for the other departments. So if Ming Flanagan got 2,000,000 for minister for turf, and that was the highest vote, he would also be Tainiste.

Taoiseach:
Minster for Finance:
Minister for Health:
Minster for Trade and Employment:
Minster for Justice:
Minister for Social Welfare:
Minister for Communications:
Minister for Foreign Affairs:

I reckon we might have a motley crew of Ministers, but probably a smaller, neater government and political system in general.

[muppet]

If we were playing 'Fantasy Government' and somehow coming up with a series of government ministers, answerable to a wider house of jennets such as the Seanad, I wonder what sort of government we'd end up with? In essence I'm talking about a national election for the main Governmental posts, where the winners fill those posts and those posts only. If you lose that race, you are out of the picture altogether. They could maintain their party affiliations, but each minister appointed would have full responsibility of where the budget for that department was spent.

Then maybe once a week, each minister has to attend the oireachteas and give a presentation on what's going on in their department, and they can be questioned by that house. Whether that's the Seanad, or a set of 'best runners up' in the ministerial races.

Let's say you had this voting slip, no matter what part of Ireland you lived in, who would you vote for. The Tainiste would be automatically the minister with the highest vote for the other departments. So if Ming Flanagan got 2,000,000 for minister for turf, and that was the highest vote, he would also be Tainiste.

Taoiseach:
Minster for Finance:
Minister for Health:
Minster for Trade and Employment:
Minster for Justice:
Minister for Social Welfare:
Minister for Communications:
Minister for Foreign Affairs:

I reckon we might have a motley crew of Ministers, but probably a smaller, neater government and political system in general.

Does it have to come exclusively from politicians?

*Muppet - Shaking at the thought of people nominating Michael O'Leary for Fuhrer*

[AZOffaly]

If we were playing 'Fantasy Government' and somehow coming up with a series of government ministers, answerable to a wider house of jennets such as the Seanad, I wonder what sort of government we'd end up with? In essence I'm talking about a national election for the main Governmental posts, where the winners fill those posts and those posts only. If you lose that race, you are out of the picture altogether. They could maintain their party affiliations, but each minister appointed would have full responsibility of where the budget for that department was spent.

Then maybe once a week, each minister has to attend the oireachteas and give a presentation on what's going on in their department, and they can be questioned by that house. Whether that's the Seanad, or a set of 'best runners up' in the ministerial races.

Let's say you had this voting slip, no matter what part of Ireland you lived in, who would you vote for. The Tainiste would be automatically the minister with the highest vote for the other departments. So if Ming Flanagan got 2,000,000 for minister for turf, and that was the highest vote, he would also be Tainiste.

Taoiseach:
Minster for Finance:
Minister for Health:
Minster for Trade and Employment:
Minster for Justice:
Minister for Social Welfare:
Minister for Communications:
Minister for Foreign Affairs:

I reckon we might have a motley crew of Ministers, but probably a smaller, neater government and political system in general.

Does it have to come exclusively from politicians?

*Muppet - Shaking at the thought of people nominating Michael O'Leary for Fuhrer*

Anybody can run for these slots, just as they can for the Dáil. But that, de facto, makes them politicians.

[Franko]

I like this - maybe a thread of it's own.

The GAABoard 26 County Mock Ministerial Election (Skewed To Favour SF Due To The 6 County Voter Bias) Thread

I'd be really interested to see what came out of this if everyone took it seriously.

[Rossfan]

putting FG &/or Labour back sends completely the wrong message regarding their performance in Government.

What did you ( and the rest) realistically expect them to do?
They were in charge of a broke Country which had done a deal with the Devil to be bailed out.
They had little or no room to manouvre - had to stick woth the "programme"  of spending reductions ans tax increases including the (agreed by FF) widening of the tax base by having private property owners pay a property tax and a water charge.
In the next election the loyal hacks will vote for their party candidates while the overall outcome will be decided by the 40% or more who switch their votes from election to Election.
Would I be right in thinking these are mainly the upper middle class town and city dwellers?
They've had a chequered 28 years of it - PDs then Labour after one of their own - Mary Robinson got the Presidency, they then went for Bertie/McCreevy/PD world of unregulated big business belting away and SSIAs and all the rest, then when that imploded it was FG and Lab in 2011.
I suppose they'll flock to the 2 new Soundbite organisations?

[muppet]

putting FG &/or Labour back sends completely the wrong message regarding their performance in Government.

What did you ( and the rest) realistically expect them to do?
They were in charge of a broke Country which had done a deal with the Devil to be bailed out.
They had little or no room to manouvre - had to stick woth the "programme"  of spending reductions ans tax increases including the (agreed by FF) widening of the tax base by having private property owners pay a property tax and a water charge.
In the next election the loyal hacks will vote for their party candidates while the overall outcome will be decided by the 40% or more who switch their votes from election to Election.
Would I be right in thinking these are mainly the upper middle class town and city dwellers?
They've had a chequered 28 years of it - PDs then Labour after one of their own - Mary Robinson got the Presidency, they then went for Bertie/McCreevy/PD world of unregulated big business belting away and SSIAs and all the rest, then when that imploded it was FG and Lab in 2011.
I suppose they'll flock to the 2 new Soundbite organisations?

I know all of that and have been posting it here for the last few years.

That is not the point.

Despite all of the above I would grade them a fail. They do not deserve to be returned to Government after such a crap performance. It is notable that the only aspect of the Troika Bailout deal they reneged on was the Civil Service reform bit. The failed to do anything to the unions. They brought in property tax, water tax and raided private sector pension funds, while leaving their own non-existent funds unpenalised.

Read this from just over a year ago: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/unions-refuse-to-meet-troika-on-its-final-mission-29723426.html

THE Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) has rejected an invitation to meet the troika during its latest review mission after walking out of a meeting in the summer.

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ICTU general secretary David Begg told the Irish Independent that their experience throughout the three-year bailout programme had been very negative, branding the EU-IMF representatives as "unfeeling, unreceptive and unco-operative".

He said the union chiefs had enjoyed good bilateral discussions with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on its own, but that his experience of the troika as a collective had been very bad.

"We would have found the European Central Bank (ECB) and EU people particularly difficult to deal with," Mr Begg said.

"In our view, as a collective, the troika just presented as an unfeeling technocracy.

"They were really indifferent to any of the social problems that the austerity programme was putting up and they were just so single-minded about the nature of austerity."

The troika review mission to Ireland, the final under the bailout programme, will wrap up on Thursday after officials have held various meetings, including with the Government and political groups.

It is the first review mission that union chiefs have not met the troika.

Mr Begg said that over the course of the past three years, the ICTU representatives had presented the ECB, European Commission and IMF officials with various documents and proposals about how to stimulate the economy while remaining within the parameters of the bailout.

"But we just found them unreceptive and unco-operative," he said.

"We told them at the last meeting three months ago that we didn't see that it was going anywhere and we left the meeting after 20 minutes.

"We weren't making any progress. To have another meeting after the last one went so badly would have been a strange thing to do."

TRANSITION

Meanwhile, the ICTU chief questioned the need for a so-called precautionary credit line, an overdraft facility of sorts, to ease the transition from bailout to full market access when the Government leaves the bailout at the end of the year.

"I find it difficult to understand what the debate is about," he said. "At one level, if everything is so good, why would there be any need for it?

"It displays a certain lack of confidence," Mr Begg added.

The Unions wanted to give the Troika their own agenda to implement and found that they were told to shove it. That explains the sulk above. Why didn't the Government do the same to the hospital consultants for example? I suspect the Troika looked at the multitude of Qangos full of union officials and at Benchmarking in particular, all under the banner 'Partnership', with horror. But still the Government failed to tackle this particular nasty part of Bertie's legacies.

Just to point out the lunacy of this situation, the man quoted above, the Head of ICTU, was on the Board of The Irish Central Bank in the run up to, and during the financial crisis. He served there, AFAIK, for 14 years. Accord to this: https://paddyhealy.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/bank-inquiry-david-begg-must-explain-role-of-central-bank/ he was Chairman of the 'Audit and Risk Management Committee' in 2007 when the Irish Central Bank stress tested our banks and found them adequately funded. If the above was correct he was involved in giving our banks a clean bill of health in 2007. And he, with his ICTU hat on, wanted to tell the Troika how to run their bailout?

These people have some neck.

[Rossfan]

So it's all "the unions" fault then. Nothing to do with unregulated bankers or builders or Quinns .
You've been banging that oul drum for 7 years now.

[Mayo4Sam]

AZ you have too much time on ur hands.


Am I the only one who thinks the goverment had a mixed scorecard? Considering the shambles they were left we are leaving austerity having stabilised the economy, employment and wages are beginning to rise, immigration on the fall. In Europe they have done well, especially in agriculture.

Offset by a fairly poor record on the health system, their radical reform and universal healthcare has proved impossible to implement. Irish Water has been a shambles and shown a real lack of backbone.

Like I say a mixed scorecard 

[Lar Naparka]

So it's all "the unions" fault then. Nothing to do with unregulated bankers or builders or Quinns .
You've been banging that oul drum for 7 years now.

Nah, it was them effin' effers that did it!
I don't blame the banks, builders or Sean Quinnn for the mess we landed in. Of course what they did was wrong but the government of the day should have been aware of what likely to happen and taken steps to prevent it.
Ahern, Cowan and the rest took most of the credit when things were going well and should have to shoulder most of the blame when the economy went belly-up.
What FF did was inexcusable and I don't think I could ever vote for that shower again.
The trouble is that I don't think the present coalition is much better and I've no reason to believe that the crash wouldn't have happened  if FG/Lab had won the 2007 election.
I mean by 2008,  Eddie Hobbs and Stephen Donnelly and all the dogs in the street were telling us that the economy was banjaxed before anyone in either FG or Labour got in on the act.
If there was no other option, I'd probably vote for the Blueshirts before I'd support FF but but it would be a case of necessity rather than choice if I'm forced to do so.

[muppet]

So it's all "the unions" fault then. Nothing to do with unregulated bankers or builders or Quinns .
You've been banging that oul drum for 7 years now.

I have been all over Sean Quinn on that thread and have a glance the bailout thread. Go back to the early pages and read it before you completely misrepresent me. No one said it is all the unions fault, what I said was that they have some neck.

And what does this mean: "Nothing to do with unregulated bankers or builders or Quinns". Do you understand who the Central Bank is and what it does? Did you understand the bit about the stress tests in 2007?

And by the way, instead of dismissing my post, what was wrong with my pointing out the ICTU General Secretary's hypocrisy? Do you have a counter opinion that you can offer?

[deiseach]

So it's all "the unions" fault then. Nothing to do with unregulated bankers or builders or Quinns .
You've been banging that oul drum for 7 years now.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

[foxcommander]

Another Fine (gael) example of the type of people leading the country. Who knew Skype was cheaper?


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/michelle-mulherin-calls-for-skype-in-oireachtas-to-avoid-expensive-phone-bills-30947124.html

[foxcommander]

And while I know he's Labour (fine gael junior) Michael D Higgins is not some god like figure "above politics". By signing bills into law for the government he is just as responsible.

[Rossfan]

Still showing your ignorance of An Bunreacht I see.