The Fine Gael thread

[deiseach]

So what, we just bridge the rest of the deficit by increasing income tax rates? Why not scrap VAT and add that to income tax as well?
It has to pay for people to work.

I never suggested we should 'bridge the rest of the deficit by increasing incomes tax rates' or anything like it. I'm saying that we should pay for improvements to public services by increasing tax rates at the top. There is little evidence that this proves a disincentive to work and plenty that it doesn't, e.g. just about every country on the continent.

Just about every other country on the continent charges for water.

So you want to follow them when it comes to water charges but ignore the evidence from them that high tax rates are not a disincentive to work?

[deiseach]

Hmmmmmmmm......
I wonder how many were actuually ordinary people  against the specific water charge? As opposed to Political people (SF/loony left/Ming populists etc), the pay for nothing brigade, people generally disgruntled with the Government, people who after 6 years have become "Austerity weary" and so on.

The government seem confident that the turn out represented a hard core Trot element. I think they might be right, although getting people to pay is still going to be a fraught business.

[Maguire01]

So what, we just bridge the rest of the deficit by increasing income tax rates? Why not scrap VAT and add that to income tax as well?
It has to pay for people to work.

I never suggested we should 'bridge the rest of the deficit by increasing incomes tax rates' or anything like it. I'm saying that we should pay for improvements to public services by increasing tax rates at the top. There is little evidence that this proves a disincentive to work and plenty that it doesn't, e.g. just about every country on the continent.

Just about every other country on the continent charges for water.

So you want to follow them when it comes to water charges but ignore the evidence from them that high tax rates are not a disincentive to work?

No, I don't want to ignore the evidence (i'd be interested in seeing the examples) - I accept your point. On water specifically however, I maintain the need for Ireland to broaden its tax base, to incentivise conservation of water, to have a ring-fenced funding etc.

[deiseach]

No, I don't want to ignore the evidence (i'd be interested in seeing the examples) - I accept your point. On water specifically however, I maintain the need for Ireland to broaden its tax base, to incentivise conservation of water, to have a ring-fenced funding etc.

Okay. That's a fair viewpoint and we can agree to differ.

[Denn Forever]

Fine, we'll agree to disagree so.

You're no fun

No, I don't want to ignore the evidence (i'd be interested in seeing the examples) - I accept your point. On water specifically however, I maintain the need for Ireland to broaden its tax base, to incentivise conservation of water, to have a ring-fenced funding etc.

Okay. That's a fair viewpoint and we can agree to differ.

So who's right?

[deiseach]

So who's right?

Genghis Khan.

[Maguire01]

Hmmmmmmmm......
I wonder how many were actuually ordinary people  against the specific water charge? As opposed to Political people (SF/loony left/Ming populists etc), the pay for nothing brigade, people generally disgruntled with the Government, people who after 6 years have become "Austerity weary" and so on.

The government seem confident that the turn out represented a hard core Trot element. I think they might be right, although getting people to pay is still going to be a fraught business.

Yep, the number of SF flags and the reported reception for Gerry Adams' speech was probably a bit of an own-goal in that respect.

[deiseach]

Yep, the number of SF flags and the reported reception for Gerry Adams' speech was probably a bit of an own-goal in that respect.

The applause continued for minutes without stopping and everyone was growing weary, but who would dare to be the first to stop clapping? As the labored applause wore on an old man collapsed. Finally the mayor allowed his arms to drop and the noise died. The next evening the mayor was sentenced to the gulag, and no charges were ever spoken against him. As he stepped into the train, a party official whispered into his ear, "Never be the first one to stop clapping."

[Maguire01]

Yep, the number of SF flags and the reported reception for Gerry Adams' speech was probably a bit of an own-goal in that respect.

The applause continued for minutes without stopping and everyone was growing weary, but who would dare to be the first to stop clapping? As the labored applause wore on an old man collapsed. Finally the mayor allowed his arms to drop and the noise died. The next evening the mayor was sentenced to the gulag, and no charges were ever spoken against him. As he stepped into the train, a party official whispered into his ear, "Never be the first one to stop clapping."

[Rossfan]

Yep, the number of SF flags and the reported reception for Gerry Adams' speech was probably a bit of an own-goal in that respect.

The applause continued for minutes without stopping and everyone was growing weary, but who would dare to be the first to stop clapping? As the labored applause wore on an old man collapsed. Finally the mayor allowed his arms to drop and the noise died. The next evening the mayor was sentenced to the gulag, and no charges were ever spoken against him. As he stepped into the train, a party official whispered into his ear, "Never be the first one to stop clapping."

Like the old newsreels of Nazi Germany seeing who could keep the arm raised the longest and highest when AH was around.

[muppet]

Does progressive taxation just mean loading the cost of water onto income tax? Workers just take on the burden? Is there another solution i'm missing?

Yes. Whatever way you cut it, water charges are a tax. The reason I use the word 'progressive' is because charges are regressive. The poorer you are, the greater a proportion of your income you are going to have to set aside to pay for water.

This ideology seems to be accepted as an unquestionable truth, i.e. there are those that can be tapped to pay for everything and those who should never pay for anything. Should we pay for everything as a proportion of our salaries? Or should it only things associated with those that we vote for and their self-serving promises, such as Health, Education, Transportation etc. There is strong evidence that too many benefits discourage many of the unemployed from seeking work.

The reality is that the Government can't stop the water charges. It is a deal done with the Troika and have a look at Greece to see what happens when you try to renege on such deals. With that in mind Higgins & Ogle, the other Trots and co will ramp up the protests calling for the scrapping of the charges knowing full well that it can't be done. This government has already shown a lack of a spine and this could bring forward an election, which is all the organisers want. Then the protests will end. What odds Ogle announces he is running then.

I believe SF are there only because they don't want to be outflanked on the left and their knee-jerk reaction is to run on to the streets. I await their first 100 days in Government (which I believe will happen) after the next election with great interest as they will then have to explain to their supporters that they can't scrap the water charges. But at least they will have extra (ministerial?) pensions earned.

[Maguire01]

Water charges AND property tax they'll reverse.

[Rossfan]

And will increase public spending.
Magic lads altogether.

[Lar Naparka]

Lar wrote:

"I'd love think that Coalition policies played a major part in stopping the recession but, going by the way in which it handled the water tax issue, I'm damn sure it didn't. "

Well that's an Irish trait, blaming them for what goes wrong and giving them no credit for what goes right. I don't think even Jesus Christ would have come out of Irish Water unscathed and he was a man who could turn it into wine. There's a lot who are not on breadline and simply believe it's a god given right to have free water. Mind you you won't see them drinking the stuff the Gods piss with abandon from the sky or the polluted stuff that fills our rivers and lakes, that we as irish people are solely responsible for (not Europe, not the Brits). Then you have those that believe it should always be state run, as if that is somehow better. CIE anyone? Then there's those who think it magically comes from taps for free, even though Dublin will soon have a huge shortage and needs to drain Lough Ree abd Lougn Derg and it's only a matter of time before what happened in Galway and Roscommon happens all over the country. Then we'll have a water system that is not only 40% wasted in leaks but littered with disease carrying bacteria. And the people will shout why didn't we fix this problem. And the answer will be that as a race of people we are a right shower of thickos who have no problem buying The Sun and The Mirror or heading off to NYC to fill the auld suitcase  and paying to watch our English soccer teams on Sky to Mr Murdoch but God forbid we cough up to invest in the single most important resource in our country.

Arrah, g'wan outa that!   

It's a mighty fine rant alright but most of it has little or nothing to do with anything I wrote. Can anyone recall  a single statement from any govt. source, predicting that we'd have a turnaround in our economy before it actually came to pass? 

More to the point, can you? 

No, I don't think that pointing out the obvious is an Irish trait, quite the opposite in fact. I am also prepared to give the government proper credit wherever and whenever it's due. Trouble is I have found sweet FA to date to suggest that they are getting on top of our economic problems.   

Can you point out an example of anything they did that I'm overlooking and I'll gladly retract that statement.   

For the record, I said in an earlier post on this thread that I am in favour of a water tax. It's the least odious of all the levies that have been brought in since the economy went belly up. I also agree wholeheartedly that there are plenty of people who are not on the breadline who could afford to pay a fair an equitable levy but refuse to do so. 

 

But what about the countless thousands who are on the breadline, those who haven't a pot to piss in? 

Do you accept that there are multitudes of children who arrive in school every day without having had a decent breakfast or that many teachers either buy or make up sandwiches out of sheer pity and concern? Don't take my word for it, there's plenty of evidence for those who are prepared to look around them. Ask any teacher you know if kids arrive in their classroom who are ravenous with hunger or if they have heard of this happening in any other classroom or school. I'll leave the answer to you because I'm pretty confident they will back up what I am saying to you. 

Sure, we can do without another CIE but we're landed with the mother of all quangoes instead. 

Lemme see now.... 

First Irish Water was set up and a Board was appointed. So far, so good. 

Before a tap was turned on, the  board announced details of their proposed bonuses. WE were also told that if we used less water, the tariffs would be increased. They also demanded our PPS details and, if my memory is correct the original plan was to sell off Irish Water to the private sector after a few years. 

Oh and a few thousand former Bord Gais employees were going to landed onto the payroll even though there was no work for the. But, since they were approaching retirement age and all would be gone within 6 or 7 years, we shouldn't be unduly bothered about it. 

Then the all important issue of tariffs was dealt with. Those figures weren't arrived at after a detailed study of our actual requirements and without taking peoples' ability to pay into consideration. Instead, we were treated to the spectacle of a political dogfight  in the lead up to the local election, as each party  sought save its political skin.   

After a serious mauling in the polls, followed shortly after by an unprecedented  display of protest when over 150,00 took to the streets to show their opposition to the  proposed charges, we had a complete back down by our supposed leaders. Enda then chipped in his tuppence worth by declaring his opposition to the payment of bonuses.   

John Tierney then took centre stage when he went ahead anyway and announced his proposed bonus system.  According to him, bonuses would be paid to personnel whose work was sub-standard. 

Good God, you wouldn't get the likes of this in the Beano. I'd settle for another CIE if I had to make the choice. 

BTW, one of my nieces told mew that under the original proposed tariffs, she'd would have had to come up with a total of €548 to pay the household charges. Now the demand is down to €160 and if she gets the promised €100 sweetener, she will get away with just €60. 

So €548 was demanded and €60 will be accepted. Someone got the figures seriously wrong somewhere along the line. It's a case of the monkeys being in complete control of the zoo.

[macdanger2]

Or more likely, the money will simply have to come from somewhere else Lar.

The money IW are raising through charges isn't going to cover the cost of providing water, treating sewerage and upgrading the network