The Fine Gael thread

[Pangurban]

There is no slave worse than the one who kisses his chains, and we have a lot of that type on this forum. Basically Brain Dead individuals

[lynchbhoy]

Really, there is no point in discussing whether there is the optimal security configuration on the strength of a crap newspaper article which didn't describe the purpose of the wifi. The point is that they were objecting to things normal in offices, it is perfectly usual for meeting rooms and the like to have wifi.

Not in civil service offices it's not!
But maybe there was a requirement.
Not the norm and not for employees.
I'd say GSOC might not want wifi in their meeting rooms any more!

[armaghniac]

Really, there is no point in discussing whether there is the optimal security configuration on the strength of a crap newspaper article which didn't describe the purpose of the wifi. The point is that they were objecting to things normal in offices, it is perfectly usual for meeting rooms and the like to have wifi.

Not in civil service offices it's not!
But maybe there was a requirement.
Not the norm and not for employees.
I'd say GSOC might not want wifi in their meeting rooms any more!

This is also the point, people seem to expect the civil service to bring enormous great dusty ledgers to meetings instead of using their tablet like everyone else. Not every form of access has to be on wi-fi, of course.

[lynchbhoy]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

IMO I'd not bother marching
But what would you reckon is the alternative ?

Voting for someone else in a couple of years time isn't much of a deterrent as we have no choice in politics - only dumb and dumber!
That's why I joked about a dictatorship - but realistically there are no electoral alternatives.
Those that spout the line that we get what we vote for and it's our own fault for voting for these people just don't get it - all our politicians are fat cat me feiners who don't give a fcuk about anyone outside their family circle or political party.

Maybe sf or Lucinda's new party might bring something new and worthwhile but I have my doubts.

[Lar Naparka]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

Bejaysus BB, I think you are a bit OTT here.
There were no massive protests when FF were last in government because nobody was expecting the economy to collapse and the speed at which it began to go pear-shaped, threw everyone into confusion.
But there was no mistaking the  electorate's anger when FF lost about two thirds of its seats at the last GE. That was the mother of all "massive protests" without a doubt.
Peoples' expectations were high when the present Coalition came to power. I think everyone knew there would be tough times ahead but very few expected things to be as bad as they are now. If Enda, Eamon and their confidants knew, they took great care to hide the fact.
When it comes to cronyism, jobs for the boys (and girls,) broken promises and the likes all we are getting is a dose of Fianna Fail lite. A little bit better than FF when we were led to expect the highest of standards in public life is just not good enough.
People aren't turning out in droves in this kind of weather for the fun of it.There's an element of principled objection okay but economic desperation is the main reason for the present widespread discontent.
Sure, we're some country okay but it wasn't the honest citizens who took to the streets today who made it so.

[Mike Sheehy]

If you don't like the way you're been governed, you vote accordingly.

You only get a say at an election. How else do you get the message across if you feel that your government are doing a poor job?
So basically do you give them a free run to do whatever they like in the interim? Making bad decisions for the country has become the norm. Certainly seems that way.

I go back to the article that I posted about giving away Ireland's veto on water charges within the EU. I assume from the lack of responses no-one feels this is a big issue and are happy to toe the line on whatever decisions are being made by the current government.

Similarly those who feel that water charges are no big deal are ignoring the fact that even with these "lower" charges that are being proposed that this is only a temporary measure and once compliance has been forced upon the population the prices will get jacked up in a few years time (or privatised, even though there have been promises it won't happen. Heard that before).

If you want to do it go the whole way. Boycott the health services and the roads and take your kids out of school.
It's all paid for by Government. And has to be funded.

No it isn't. It is paid for by tax-payers. You would do well to remember that.

[Mike Sheehy]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

IMO I'd not bother marching
But what would you reckon is the alternative ?

Voting for someone else in a couple of years time isn't much of a deterrent as we have no choice in politics - only dumb and dumber!
That's why I joked about a dictatorship - but realistically there are no electoral alternatives.
Those that spout the line that we get what we vote for and it's our own fault for voting for these people just don't get it - all our politicians are fat cat me feiners who don't give a fcuk about anyone outside their family circle or political party.

Maybe sf or Lucinda's new party might bring something new and worthwhile but I have my doubts.

Why do you think that there are , apparently, no good political candidates ? Is it symptomatic of a  deeper problem in Irish society ?

Why is it that good people don't run for office ?

[lynchbhoy]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

IMO I'd not bother marching
But what would you reckon is the alternative ?

Voting for someone else in a couple of years time isn't much of a deterrent as we have no choice in politics - only dumb and dumber!
That's why I joked about a dictatorship - but realistically there are no electoral alternatives.
Those that spout the line that we get what we vote for and it's our own fault for voting for these people just don't get it - all our politicians are fat cat me feiners who don't give a fcuk about anyone outside their family circle or political party.

Maybe sf or Lucinda's new party might bring something new and worthwhile but I have my doubts.

Why do you think that there are , apparently, no good political candidates ? Is it symptomatic of a  deeper problem in Irish society ?

Why is it that good people don't run for office ?

Thought about that before
Prob loads of reasons

Surely ' as politics attracts inept useless megalomaniac idiot narcissists ' can't be the only reason !!

Any captains of industry stay in industry - societal and business failures seem to head to the dail !

[muppet]

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

Forced into a bailout. And it was accepted without question.
Forced to hand over water rights. accept without question?

If you knew that a water authority were going to do a job properly then it might be accepted. But you know it's another jobs for the boys/profit making exercise. Why's Denis O'Brien involved. For the good of the country?

expected better from you muppet.

What?

We accepted a guarantee of €500n of bank debts without a murmur (except some of us here - check the Bailout thread). Sinn Féin even voted for it.
We accepted the Troika Bailout without a word. And bailout means we were force fed high interest loans which we have to pay back along with some painful medicine. Again not a word from our heroic demonstrators.

But now it seems the straw that breaks the camels back is poxy water charges. 10s of thousands of people manage to get off work (how exactly do they always manage to do that?) to disrupt the rest of us who actually work and pay for everything - to demand that we pay more.

If they don't want to pay for water, fine. But they should be cut off. If it is a natural resource they will have no bother finding it.

Better than that me arse.

[foxcommander]

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

Forced into a bailout. And it was accepted without question.
Forced to hand over water rights. accept without question?

If you knew that a water authority were going to do a job properly then it might be accepted. But you know it's another jobs for the boys/profit making exercise. Why's Denis O'Brien involved. For the good of the country?

expected better from you muppet.

What?

We accepted a guarantee of €500n of bank debts without a murmur (except some of us here - check the Bailout thread). Sinn Féin even voted for it.
We accepted the Troika Bailout without a word. And bailout means we were force fed high interest loans which we have to pay back along with some painful medicine. Again not a word from our heroic demonstrators.

But now it seems the straw that breaks the camels back is poxy water charges. 10s of thousands of people manage to get off work (how exactly do they always manage to do that?) to disrupt the rest of us who actually work and pay for everything - to demand that we pay more.

If they don't want to pay for water, fine. But they should be cut off. If it is a natural resource they will have no bother finding it.

Better than that me arse.

The general population aren't economics graduates so they trusted the governments of the time to get the best deals possible.
Had it been clearer what the deal on the table was exactly you'd have seen similar protests. Sure even Brian Lenihan didn't have the foggiest what was happening, how do you expect the ordinary punter to have such an insight.

Advocating cutting water supplies to the poorer people in society? Again, thought better of you than that.

[foxcommander]

If you don't like the way you're been governed, you vote accordingly.

You only get a say at an election. How else do you get the message across if you feel that your government are doing a poor job?
So basically do you give them a free run to do whatever they like in the interim? Making bad decisions for the country has become the norm. Certainly seems that way.

I go back to the article that I posted about giving away Ireland's veto on water charges within the EU. I assume from the lack of responses no-one feels this is a big issue and are happy to toe the line on whatever decisions are being made by the current government.

Similarly those who feel that water charges are no big deal are ignoring the fact that even with these "lower" charges that are being proposed that this is only a temporary measure and once compliance has been forced upon the population the prices will get jacked up in a few years time (or privatised, even though there have been promises it won't happen. Heard that before).

If you want to do it go the whole way. Boycott the health services and the roads and take your kids out of school.
It's all paid for by Government. And has to be funded.

No it isn't. It is paid for by tax-payers. You would do well to remember that.

You've obviously been swallowing the government message a little too much Seafoid. It's not THEIR money but just goes to show how constant brainwashing and spin is effective.

This is what Ireland has become. Greed from some of the better off in society making sure that the lower on the totem pole are stripped of the basics needs to exist.
St Vincent DePaul will be even busier this xmas. Simon community too. Food banks will start popping up all over the place. The secret poor will be forced out into the open, these numbers are a lot higher than you would think.

Also goes to show how effective the government have been on deepening the divides among the people into haves and have nots.

[Maguire01]

on the wifi - dont now the article, but there would be no need for employees in civil service to use wifi when they would and should have wired network.
that would be a bit of a luxury.
wifi for guests/visitors/customers is a different matter.

One way or another a couple of wifi routers cost feck all.

on the matter of generalising about civil service.
having worked in a couple of agencies and still dealing with many, I was party to the waste of monies by them and the waste in terms of lazy work-to-rule/thats-not-my-job types that are part and parcel of ALL the agencies that I have worked in or have worked with.
Many great people and fantastic workers are being held back by co-workers and the negative atmosphere in many of these placs. its the majority not the minority.
I have said for a long time now- over 10 years, we need a root and branch overhaul of th epublic sector. But as they hold th epower over successive governments, this is unlikely to happen.

The government has to propose measures of performance, which allow efficiency be measured in some reasonable way, but this type of think is anathema to a politician as if public service performance is measured then so is the politician and politicians can no longer spout off. When measures are introduced they are ignored. Take the recent programme on the ambulance service, there are inefficiencies there, but there are also simply not enough ambulances by any rational measure. Why do the marchers today not require targets and targets that are met?

I didnt go marching and I dont know what 'targets' the marchers are looking for.

the civil service (in some depts) have performance management systems/practices - and yet their employees still pass , and in some cases even qualify for bonuses - despite doing a rubbish below par job.
i have seen it.

A gov is voted in and dont have enough time to concentrate on the civil service

the vote for someone else is often said, but there are no alternatives to vot for.
ff and fg are the same side of a shitty coine.
as are lab and most of the independents
sf havent been in power and so cannot be labelled as this yet.

the kind of people that go for public office seem to the the shitty coin type.

id be all for a dictatorship and have michael o'leary take power.

he would hopefully put in metrics in the civil service where employees have proper targets in a perf mgt system and are penalised by wage deductions if they dont at least hit a 40% or above rating (unlike now where more than a quarter do well to reach the 40-50% bracket).
Underperforming bodies like health, gardai, education, gov agencies - all civil service - should have proper metrics set. Their jobs adjudicated and these people made hit the mark of efficiency.
Duplicate or triplicate covering employees farmed out elsewhere.
Legal people to graft a proper contract to strip bonuses etc if measures not hit.

anyhow none of this will happen.

we have no one decent to elect. there is no choice.

Given that the context is public sector performance / reform, SF has been in power in NI for almost two mandates at this stage - a look at the Northern Ireland Civil Service should give you a good idea of what you might expect if SF gain power in the south.

[Maguire01]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

IMO I'd not bother marching
But what would you reckon is the alternative ?

Voting for someone else in a couple of years time isn't much of a deterrent as we have no choice in politics - only dumb and dumber!
That's why I joked about a dictatorship - but realistically there are no electoral alternatives.
Those that spout the line that we get what we vote for and it's our own fault for voting for these people just don't get it - all our politicians are fat cat me feiners who don't give a fcuk about anyone outside their family circle or political party.

Maybe sf or Lucinda's new party might bring something new and worthwhile but I have my doubts.

Why do you think that there are , apparently, no good political candidates ? Is it symptomatic of a  deeper problem in Irish society ?

Why is it that good people don't run for office ?

For most people - particularly those who'd be capable - it's just more hassle than it's worth. It's a thankless task. And while the media and the public continually berate salaries, they're actually fairly modest in the grand scheme of things, in that a doctor, accountant, solicitor, engineer (add any number of professional jobs here) with 10+years post-qualification experience could feasibly earn more than a TD, without the public scrutiny, or the need to be available pretty much 24/7.

[Billys Boots]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

Bejaysus BB, I think you are a bit OTT here.
There were no massive protests when FF were last in government because nobody was expecting the economy to collapse and the speed at which it began to go pear-shaped, threw everyone into confusion.
But there was no mistaking the  electorate's anger when FF lost about two thirds of its seats at the last GE. That was the mother of all "massive protests" without a doubt.
Peoples' expectations were high when the present Coalition came to power. I think everyone knew there would be tough times ahead but very few expected things to be as bad as they are now. If Enda, Eamon and their confidants knew, they took great care to hide the fact.
When it comes to cronyism, jobs for the boys (and girls,) broken promises and the likes all we are getting is a dose of Fianna Fail lite. A little bit better than FF when we were led to expect the highest of standards in public life is just not good enough.
People aren't turning out in droves in this kind of weather for the fun of it.There's an element of principled objection okay but economic desperation is the main reason for the present widespread discontent.
Sure, we're some country okay but it wasn't the honest citizens who took to the streets today who made it so.

This water-charges protesting nonsense annoys me a lot - it's a complete red herring.  If the 'brains' behind these protests thought they'd change anything it wouldn't be happening. 

I don't think anyone who had been watching the collapse had high expectations of this Govt - how could they have?  The incumbent's hands were tied, their budget income was decimated and they were expected to 'fix' what FF had done, with feck all resources.  And guess what - take a look around you, things are starting to move slowly again, the debt burden is starting to lift again, and those lucky enough to have jobs can see a few extra quid in their pockets.  The unemployment figures are improving slowly, and the builders are starting to build again.  And SF/FF are running scared and stirring shite; what's new?

Sure Irish Water is a mess - sure there are a bunch of incompetent gobshites appointed to do an important job, that will take longer to do than it should.  But what is happening is making a currently amateur operation undertakne by local authorities into a professional outfit, just like the rest of the civilised world.  What we should be asking ourselves is why it has taken so long to do (there's a two-letter answer to that question).  Let me assure you, in 20 years time we'll be glad we did it.

[Maguire01]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

Bejaysus BB, I think you are a bit OTT here.
There were no massive protests when FF were last in government because nobody was expecting the economy to collapse and the speed at which it began to go pear-shaped, threw everyone into confusion.
But there was no mistaking the  electorate's anger when FF lost about two thirds of its seats at the last GE. That was the mother of all "massive protests" without a doubt.
Peoples' expectations were high when the present Coalition came to power. I think everyone knew there would be tough times ahead but very few expected things to be as bad as they are now. If Enda, Eamon and their confidants knew, they took great care to hide the fact.
When it comes to cronyism, jobs for the boys (and girls,) broken promises and the likes all we are getting is a dose of Fianna Fail lite. A little bit better than FF when we were led to expect the highest of standards in public life is just not good enough.
People aren't turning out in droves in this kind of weather for the fun of it.There's an element of principled objection okay but economic desperation is the main reason for the present widespread discontent.
Sure, we're some country okay but it wasn't the honest citizens who took to the streets today who made it so.

Whatever about Labour (who were ambiguous), FG were quite upfront in their manifesto that there would be water charges.
On the issue of political reform, most definitely, the current government has failed massively.