The Fine Gael thread

[Maguire01]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

Water treated for drinking purposes is not a natural resource. 

And even putting that aside, the treatment of wastewater seems to be constantly overlooked in this discussion.

[Maguire01]

Brendan Ogle, from Right2Water and the Unite union, estimated numbers earlier at between 70 to 80 thousand.
Gardaí have told us numbers are more like 30 to 35 thousand.

http://www.thejournal.ie/live-water-charges-protest-1826150-Dec2014/

The Government will surely be happy enough if it's close to the lower figure there. Not sure how you'll ever get a reliable figure for a march like this.

[lynchbhoy]

on the wifi - dont now the article, but there would be no need for employees in civil service to use wifi when they would and should have wired network.
that would be a bit of a luxury.
wifi for guests/visitors/customers is a different matter.

One way or another a couple of wifi routers cost feck all.

on the matter of generalising about civil service.
having worked in a couple of agencies and still dealing with many, I was party to the waste of monies by them and the waste in terms of lazy work-to-rule/thats-not-my-job types that are part and parcel of ALL the agencies that I have worked in or have worked with.
Many great people and fantastic workers are being held back by co-workers and the negative atmosphere in many of these placs. its the majority not the minority.
I have said for a long time now- over 10 years, we need a root and branch overhaul of th epublic sector. But as they hold th epower over successive governments, this is unlikely to happen.

The government has to propose measures of performance, which allow efficiency be measured in some reasonable way, but this type of think is anathema to a politician as if public service performance is measured then so is the politician and politicians can no longer spout off. When measures are introduced they are ignored. Take the recent programme on the ambulance service, there are inefficiencies there, but there are also simply not enough ambulances by any rational measure. Why do the marchers today not require targets and targets that are met?

I didnt go marching and I dont know what 'targets' the marchers are looking for.

the civil service (in some depts) have performance management systems/practices - and yet their employees still pass , and in some cases even qualify for bonuses - despite doing a rubbish below par job.
i have seen it.

A gov is voted in and dont have enough time to concentrate on the civil service

the vote for someone else is often said, but there are no alternatives to vot for.
ff and fg are the same side of a shitty coine.
as are lab and most of the independents
sf havent been in power and so cannot be labelled as this yet.

the kind of people that go for public office seem to the the shitty coin type.

id be all for a dictatorship and have michael o'leary take power.

he would hopefully put in metrics in the civil service where employees have proper targets in a perf mgt system and are penalised by wage deductions if they dont at least hit a 40% or above rating (unlike now where more than a quarter do well to reach the 40-50% bracket).
Underperforming bodies like health, gardai, education, gov agencies - all civil service - should have proper metrics set. Their jobs adjudicated and these people made hit the mark of efficiency.
Duplicate or triplicate covering employees farmed out elsewhere.
Legal people to graft a proper contract to strip bonuses etc if measures not hit.

anyhow none of this will happen.

we have no one decent to elect. there is no choice.

[lynchbhoy]

One way or another a couple of wifi routers cost feck all.

secure wifi ?- used by employees?
connecting to what - leased line?

thats just it. if it is just wifi for employees, irrespective of the cost, it isnt something that the civil service should be giving out or encouraging. There is a cost to it.
there is a security and thus data protection vulnerability to it.

yes it is easy to set up and deliver a wifi connection, but this isnt a guest wifi hot spot.
you said it was for employees???

[Rossfan]

id be all for a dictatorship and have michael o'leary take power.

Dear God in Heaven preserve us from this and from the loolahs who promote the idea.

[armaghniac]

id be all for a dictatorship and have michael o'leary take power.

he would hopefully put in metrics in the civil service where employees have proper targets in a perf mgt system and are penalised by wage deductions if they dont at least hit a 40% or above rating (unlike now where more than a quarter do well to reach the 40-50% bracket).
Underperforming bodies like health, gardai, education, gov agencies - all civil service - should have proper metrics set. Their jobs adjudicated and these people made hit the mark of efficiency.

This is an example of lack of focus I mentioned, you basically mention everything in the same breath as equally bad and you imply that it is laziness of people that is the sole problem. O'Leary got things done in Ryanair not only by making the baggage handlers process a certain number of bags but also by charging for bags and reducing the the number they had to handle. Bad procedures can mean that the people are working hard as part of inefficient process.

One way or another a couple of wifi routers cost feck all.

secure wifi ?- used by employees?
connecting to what - leased line?

thats just it. if it is just wifi for employees, irrespective of the cost, it isnt something that the civil service should be giving out or encouraging. There is a cost to it.
there is a security and thus data protection vulnerability to it.

yes it is easy to set up and deliver a wifi connection, but this isnt a guest wifi hot spot.
you said it was for employees???

Really, there is no point in discussing whether there is the optimal security configuration on the strength of a crap newspaper article which didn't describe the purpose of the wifi. The point is that they were objecting to things normal in offices, it is perfectly usual for meeting rooms and the like to have wifi.

[foxcommander]

If you don't like the way you're been governed, you vote accordingly.

You only get a say at an election. How else do you get the message across if you feel that your government are doing a poor job?
So basically do you give them a free run to do whatever they like in the interim? Making bad decisions for the country has become the norm. Certainly seems that way.

I go back to the article that I posted about giving away Ireland's veto on water charges within the EU. I assume from the lack of responses no-one feels this is a big issue and are happy to toe the line on whatever decisions are being made by the current government.

Similarly those who feel that water charges are no big deal are ignoring the fact that even with these "lower" charges that are being proposed that this is only a temporary measure and once compliance has been forced upon the population the prices will get jacked up in a few years time (or privatised, even though there have been promises it won't happen. Heard that before).

[Hound]

what did those shower of scumbags think they'd gain by blocking the quays and other city centre roads at rush hour?
Making people coming out after a hard days work having to spend an extra hour plus in the car on their way home is hardly going to attract new followers. 

[Rossfan]

Those extremists don't give 2 flying fcuks about people who have to work for a living as it's not something they will be doing.
By the looks of the pictures of the crowd every SF member must have been given a flag to carry.

Foxxommander -the way you change Governements in a Democracy is by voting for other parties in an election.
If we change Govts every time there's a protest march we'd have some chaos.
What are the "bad decisions that have become the norm"? What would you do if you were in Government (in the real world)?

[muppet]

Strangely, I don't recall massive protests when FF were discovered to have robbed us, ruined us and destroyed our childrens' futures.  But we'll all turn out in droves when FG asks us to pay for what we use.  What a country, I'm so proud.

It's not just about water charges. It's about the total mismanagement by successive governments.

If you read the article I posted it involves giving up the right of the irish people to another natural resource and handing it over to europe to do what it will. Once given away there won't be any going back. Remember the Lisbon treaty and how they forced a re-vote to get their way by using scare tactics?

I'd say this is important enough to protest about, no?

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

[seafoid]

If you don't like the way you're been governed, you vote accordingly.

You only get a say at an election. How else do you get the message across if you feel that your government are doing a poor job?
So basically do you give them a free run to do whatever they like in the interim? Making bad decisions for the country has become the norm. Certainly seems that way.

I go back to the article that I posted about giving away Ireland's veto on water charges within the EU. I assume from the lack of responses no-one feels this is a big issue and are happy to toe the line on whatever decisions are being made by the current government.

Similarly those who feel that water charges are no big deal are ignoring the fact that even with these "lower" charges that are being proposed that this is only a temporary measure and once compliance has been forced upon the population the prices will get jacked up in a few years time (or privatised, even though there have been promises it won't happen. Heard that before).

If you want to do it go the whole way. Boycott the health services and the roads and take your kids out of school.
It's all paid for by Government. And has to be funded. 

[armaghniac]

It is on the RTÉ News now, asteroids brought water to Earth. Why right does Fine Gael have to charge for something that came a billion years ago? It is a disgrace, Joe.

[foxcommander]

Those extremists don't give 2 flying fcuks about people who have to work for a living as it's not something they will be doing.
By the looks of the pictures of the crowd every SF member must have been given a flag to carry.

Foxxommander -the way you change Governements in a Democracy is by voting for other parties in an election.
If we change Govts every time there's a protest march we'd have some chaos.
What are the "bad decisions that have become the norm"? What would you do if you were in Government (in the real world)?

So the elderly and underpriveleged are extremists now. Is Glen Hansard one too?

I wouldn't sign over rights to the EU regarding water charges for a start.

Anyway, you decide to bury your head in the sand so it's not worth debating with you. Vote FG in the next election.

[foxcommander]

If you are going to refuse to pay, then do the decent thing and go outside and turn off your water. Put up a sign outside your house saying you won't pay for the water, nor will you use any, and you will have the empathy of most and admiration of some.

Bring Dublin to a standstill for something that was signed off 3 years ago is completely idiotic.

But since we were forced into a bailout, there is no point in protesting. Look at Greece. It causes chaos locally, spooks badly needed investors and tourists, and the austerity doesn't go away. Joe Higgins & co will gain a seat or two and that is about it.

Is is worth it?

Forced into a bailout. And it was accepted without question.
Forced to hand over water rights. accept without question?

If you knew that a water authority were going to do a job properly then it might be accepted. But you know it's another jobs for the boys/profit making exercise. Why's Denis O'Brien involved. For the good of the country?

expected better from you muppet.

[lynchbhoy]

This is an example of lack of focus I mentioned, you basically mention everything in the same breath as equally bad and you imply that it is laziness of people that is the sole problem. O'Leary got things done in Ryanair not only by making the baggage handlers process a certain number of bags but also by charging for bags and reducing the the number they had to handle. Bad procedures can mean that the people are working hard as part of inefficient process.

Give me specifics and I will respond with specifics.
All I am saying here is opinion from actual observations on the waste and dreadful performance in civil service and gov agencies from first hand exp.
I know and acknowledged that there are a lot of good workers, but if the dross and waste were eradicated and the civil service made efficient - then we would save millions which undoubtedly would mean less additional tax requirements etc