The Fine Gael thread

[Billys Boots]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Yes.  Why would I want a deeply flawed analysis of an incompetence from the originator?  Are you saying I'm stupid?

[AZOffaly]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Not at all, criticism of a Forfás screw up can come from Government back-bench TDs, the Senate ( ) or even the media.

But it is simply hypocrisy hearing it from FF.

So you think backbenchers, the soon to be extinct Seanad or the media are the ones who should be the ones providing the challenge to the current government? I don't think that's a good basis for democracy.

[AZOffaly]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Yes.  Why would I want a deeply flawed analysis of an incompetence from the originator?  Are you saying I'm stupid?

I think what you are saying is ridiculous. The opposition of the day (whether you like them or not, or whether they made a balls of things or not) are supposed to challenge the government of the day with regard to current policies and decisions. If you disqualify them from doing that, then you might as well ban all ex-members of government from sitting in the Dáil, because every one of them has made a balls of things at various times.

[muppet]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Not at all, criticism of a Forfás screw up can come from Government back-bench TDs, the Senate ( ) or even the media.

But it is simply hypocrisy hearing it from FF.

So you think backbenchers, the soon to be extinct Seanad or the media are the ones who should be the ones providing the challenge to the current government? I don't think that's a good basis for democracy.

FF's populism is not a good basis for democracy either.

[AZOffaly]

Absolutely not, but populism is not the exclusive property of the Fianna Fáil strategy.

And I realise that you were talking about a specific example here, and I can see how your response to Michéal Martin would be along the lines of 'Are you f**king serious with this?'. In fact I'd say the sale of brass has increased quite a bit when you see some of the stuff that the soldiers of destiny are spouting.

However, in the general sense, I can't see how a system of oppositional politics can function if the voice of the main opposition party is not allowed to be heard. Of course it's up to you if you listen to them, but to suggest that they've forfeited their right to comment on current day events is crazy. As I said, we might as well just bar all ex-government party members (including those who weren't around to f**k things up) from being present in the Dáil.

[Billys Boots]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Yes.  Why would I want a deeply flawed analysis of an incompetence from the originator?  Are you saying I'm stupid?

I think what you are saying is ridiculous. The opposition of the day (whether you like them or not, or whether they made a balls of things or not) are supposed to challenge the government of the day with regard to current policies and decisions. If you disqualify them from doing that, then you might as well ban all ex-members of government from sitting in the Dáil, because every one of them has made a balls of things at various times.

You're talking in generalities; I'm talking in specifics.  Of course the opposition should highlight the incompetencies of the incumbents - they shouldn't however dress up their own f**k-ups as someone else's.  The immense public-sector costs to the state are a direct consequence of FF policy in government - if their contribution to office in opposition is to try to blame this on the present government then I'm perfectly entitled to regard it as disingenuous (and typical) of them. 

[muppet]

But lads, if you don't want to hear criticism of what's happening today from those who made a c**k up of it initially, then basically you are limiting the criticism to either Sinn Fein or the Independents. Is that really what ye want?

Yes.  Why would I want a deeply flawed analysis of an incompetence from the originator?  Are you saying I'm stupid?

I think what you are saying is ridiculous. The opposition of the day (whether you like them or not, or whether they made a balls of things or not) are supposed to challenge the government of the day with regard to current policies and decisions. If you disqualify them from doing that, then you might as well ban all ex-members of government from sitting in the Dáil, because every one of them has made a balls of things at various times.

You're talking in generalities; I'm talking in specifics.  Of course the opposition should highlight the incompetencies of the incumbents - they shouldn't however dress up their own f**k-ups as someone else's.  The immense public-sector costs to the state are a direct consequence of FF policy in government - if their contribution to office in opposition is to try to blame this on the present government then I'm perfectly entitled to regard it as disingenuous (and typical) of them.

☝

This

[AZOffaly]

OK fair enough. In this specific example I agree that it's fairly rich.

In general though, I would defend their right to oppose in opposition. And I'd say they'll have a good while to get used to getting good at it.

[muppet]

OK fair enough. In this specific example I agree that it's fairly rich.

In generalities though, I would defend their right to oppose in opposition. And I'd say they'll have a good while to get used to getting good at it.

It is scary thinking about what the next Dáil will look like.

I hate the idea of returning a Government to power in a GE, even if they do a brilliant job, which is a scenario we don't have.

So if you reasonably assume the country doesn't want FG/Labour again, then what will we have? (I am aware of the irony of sounding like Bertie/McCreevy 'but shur look at the alternative').

I have a feeling we might get an awful lot of independents which is not a good thing. Look at the likes of Wallace, Healy-Rae and Ming. Do we want even more of that?

[AZOffaly]

This is kind of what I'm saying muppet. I have no issue with returning a government if they are doing a good job, and pulling the plug if they are not. But the problem is I suppose that in a small country, with a political 'class', you end up with the same names and the same ideologies just going around and around. So if it's not FG/Lab next time, it might be FF/Lab or even FF/SF. It'll never be anything other than FF or FG led coalitions for years to come I think. To be honest the thoughts of Mick Wallace having *any* say in my children's Ireland frightens the shit out of me. The likes of Joe Higgins or Clare Daly as strident leftist voices may be useful as a counterpoint to the FG and FF centre-right policies. Labour stand for nothing anymore as far as I can see, which is disappointing. Sinn Fein would be a leftist option, but they seem to be still trying to get an identity in the south that isn't just anti-everything.

Unless a new party emerges from somewhere, that's basically the cycle we are in.

[Billys Boots]

I have no love for the incumbents but I would like to see what they'll do (if it ever happens again) with an expansionary budget before castigating them.  They're on a hiding to nothing in the present position - they've done what they said they would, but no-one is feeling anything but pain from them. 

[Maguire01]

From Twitter:

SBP REDC post budget poll FG wins, Lab slips to single figures FG 29 (+2) FF 23 (=) Lab 9 (-1) SF 17 (=) Ind/Oth 22 (-1) (D/K 18%)

Unbelievable that the opposition can't boost their figures in a post-budget poll.

Seat estimates based on constituency level analysis of SBP-Red C poll: FG 57, FF 45, SF 22, LAB 9, GP 0, IND/OTH 25

80 for a majority next time out - FG/FF looks like the only option on those numbers.

[armaghniac]

80 for a majority next time out - FG/FF looks like the only option on those numbers.

How about an anti Blueshirt coalition of FF SF & Lab!

[Farrandeelin]

From Twitter:

SBP REDC post budget poll FG wins, Lab slips to single figures FG 29 (+2) FF 23 (=) Lab 9 (-1) SF 17 (=) Ind/Oth 22 (-1) (D/K 18%)

Unbelievable that the opposition can't boost their figures in a post-budget poll.

Seat estimates based on constituency level analysis of SBP-Red C poll: FG 57, FF 45, SF 22, LAB 9, GP 0, IND/OTH 25

80 for a majority next time out - FG/FF looks like the only option on those numbers.

Re: your first point, is it that unbelievable?

[Maguire01]

80 for a majority next time out - FG/FF looks like the only option on those numbers.

How about an anti Blueshirt coalition of FF SF & Lab!

That's 31 short of a majority by my calculations.