The Fine Gael thread

[Lar Naparka]

To take Hardy's tactic, Neither me nor my grandfather "offed" anyone.

Say your grand da killed someone in the 1910's or 1920's, you'd agree that they shouldn't be let anywhere near politics / running a country ever again? Or if they were part of an organisation that did this, ditto? I just want to be clear.

Where did I come into this? I don't have a murky past like Lar.

You're goddamn right.
My murky past is a lot murkier than your murky past.
My murky past great grandfather was a Fenian fanatic and he'd have shot every bloody Tan in sight if he could.
But he couldn't for a number of reasons.
Here they are in no particular order:
He didn't have a gun.
He was as blind as a bat.
There were no Tans about the place in his time.

[Lar Naparka]

Not really, because your just saying that yeah our guys did that 80 odd years ago, but we've moved on. Well SF have moved on as well, and are now a political only party. So I'm asking you how long is it until they can distance themselves from their past just as you've done with the boys from 1920.

The rest of your post as Nally pointed out was complete Indo spoofing about bodygards and other such tripe to muddy the water.

It's not idiot proofing you need, it's an idiot filter for your posts.

There are none so blind as those who cannot see...
Don't bother telling me what I'm saying and then going on to say something else. I never mentioned SF's involvement in the recent Troubles nor said that it would take years for them to be accepted anywhere.
I'd give Gerry, Marty & co great credit for laying down the gun in favour of the ballot box. Same of course applies to Paisley.

I didn't need the Indo to point out anything about Marty or anybody else. Anything at all "as Nally pointed out" will be well wide of reality. I'm saying Marty went on and on about what he's do as president when he hadn't a clue what he could or couldn't do if he won the election.
I've told Nally what I'm telling you now: Come up with an article from any source that shows Marty knew what he was talking about and I'll come back with two to show he was talking sh1te.
It's a bit rich for any of youse to tell any of us how to run our business when you've haven't a clue what you're on about.

You won't find too many of us "down here" lecturing you "up there" about how to conduct your affairs.

[trueblue1234]

I pulled you up on one issue. Just in case your unsure, I'll quote it for you.

Ah, they did indeed, although they weren't FF or FG at the time and they carried out their share of Northern Bank heists and Jerry McCabe murders as well. But that was about 80/90 years ago and people nowadays have no appetite for the shinners coming along and re-inventing that particular wheel all over again.

Maybe I'm picking you up wrong, but would you like to enlighten me as to what this means?

Take your time.

[Maguire01]

We don't have your first past the post model so it's not as easy to fiddle the system as it is for you.

In the interests of accuracy, FPTP only applies to Westminster elections. It's PR-STV for the Assembly, the same as the Dail.

[Lar Naparka]

I pulled you up on one issue. Just in case your unsure, I'll quote it for you.

Ah, they did indeed, although they weren't FF or FG at the time and they carried out their share of Northern Bank heists and Jerry McCabe murders as well. But that was about 80/90 years ago and people nowadays have no appetite for the shinners coming along and re-inventing that particular wheel all over again.

Maybe I'm picking you up wrong, but would you like to enlighten me as to what this means?

Take your time.

Sure, that's no problem. It's a reasonable request.


I wrote what you have quoted in response to one of lawnseed's posts.

I supposed the fact that many ff and fg tds attended the first dail sessions carrying guns.. but they were good guns weren't they ?

I pointed out to him that FF and FG weren't in existence when the first dail was convened. That may come across as nit picking but it also shows that poor lawnseed hadn't done his research.
Now, the Bolshies (Anti Treaty) and the (Free) Staters brought their guns to the Dail for many years afterwards and not just for the first session. Their main purpose was not to shoot anyone in particular but to protect themselves against any assassination attempts.
There were plenty who would shoot many of them if only they could.
It was real Wild West stuff back then.
Both sides sprung from the ranks of the Old IRA so there were very few policy differences between them. But the IRA of those times weren't all noble-minded patriots; not by a long shot; same as the 'Ra of recent times.
There were plenty of bank, post office and mail train robberies carried out as well as fighting the Brits and a lot of the money wasn't used to buy cartridges for their guns either.
More Irish people were killed by the old IRA than were killed by the Tans, special agents, Auxies or regular forces. Very few were collaborating with the Crown forces in any way; most were bumped off because the refused to pay protection money or because an IRA warlord in the are held a grudge against them and the likes.
Now, we put all of that behind us many years ago and for me and most other people there are no "good guns."
If SF can stick with constitutional policies and keep their guns out of politics, I'll be very happy. If they come up with realistic policies and show they are interested in democracy, they have as much right ass any other party to look for support anywhere they please.
But they are not going to be able to run the show here in the republic for many years to come if ever. I've given my reasons for saying this is in part due to our PR system. Another problem is that many down here aren't yet convinced that SF in the North has fully accepted that constitutional politics is the only way to go.
As long as splinter IRA groups remain active, the fear is that the Provos haven't really gone away.
So for lawnseed to come on here and tell us all that the shinners will transform the face of Irish politics if only we listen to their message is a bit ironic, given their own origin in violence. We've been that way before and don't want another dose of it.

[Lar Naparka]

We don't have your first past the post model so it's not as easy to fiddle the system as it is for you.

In the interests of accuracy, FPTP only applies to Westminster elections. It's PR-STV for the Assembly, the same as the Dail.

Sorry about that. I was only thinking of parliamentary elections when I wrote that as we don't have the likes of the Assembly down here.

[Nally Stand]

Lar, apart from the indo propaganda rehashing and the boogieman stories about how SF get their vote out in nationalist areas (I live in a nationalist area of the six counties and you don't, so I'll wager I have a better idea of the topic you speak of); what exactly do you think mcguinness didn't understand about the role of the presidency, considering it is a meet-and-greet, public appearances, head of state type role, which is a a role he has more experience in than the other candidates had put together? For a man who says he only talks in bare facts, you give an awful lot of fanciful opinions grounded in nothing but anti-SF indo/rte propeganda about the big bad SF boogiemen and all their evil deeds.

[Syferus]

Lar, apart from the indo propaganda rehashing and the boogieman stories about how SF get their vote out in nationalist areas (I live in a nationalist area of the six counties and you don't, so I'll wager I have a better idea of the topic you speak of); what exactly do you think mcguinness didn't understand about the role of the presidency, considering it is a meet-and-greet, public appearances, head of state type role, which is a a role he has more experience in than the other candidates had put together? For a man who says he only talks in bare facts, you give an awful lot of fanciful opinions grounded in nothing but anti-SF indo/rte propeganda about the big bad SF boogiemen and all their evil deeds.

You're hardly an impartial observer, Nally.

Y'see, I think for a big swathe of people in the six counties SF are the best thing going right now in terms of providing a voice on the future of the north but down here the situation is very different and even gobeens are going to be more palatable to the majority of the electorate than SF will be for the foreseeable future. You can blame the Sindo or RTE all you want you want and try to make SF victims of some huge conspiracy to discredit them but people here genuinely do not want SF in government and nor will they be in government.

[Itchy]

Where are SF in the polls old bean. I believe they very well could be in the next government if they wish to be, unless some how you have a veto on it. I wouldn't vote for them but then I know a lot who would.

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, apart from the indo propaganda rehashing and the boogieman stories about how SF get their vote out in nationalist areas (I live in a nationalist area of the six counties and you don't, so I'll wager I have a better idea of the topic you speak of); what exactly do you think mcguinness didn't understand about the role of the presidency, considering it is a meet-and-greet, public appearances, head of state type role, which is a a role he has more experience in than the other candidates had put together? For a man who says he only talks in bare facts, you give an awful lot of fanciful opinions grounded in nothing but anti-SF indo/rte propeganda about the big bad SF boogiemen and all their evil deeds.

Ah, there you go again, Nally; what I am saying call all be put down to  indo propaganda rehashing and boogieman stories, can it? I think you have a tendency to come out with broad generalisations and then glide on to your next subject without backing up what you just said. Nothing personal intended here btw –just an observation.
You see I don't read the bloody indo- can't stand the sight of it and if what I have to say tallies with what you see in the indo, there's a strong possibility that it's either co-incidence or that what we have to say is patently obvious.
As for the boogieman stories?
Are you saying that they're all untrue? I accept that someone in a nationalist area probably knows  what goes on better than I do but you didn't claim that SF don't do vote rigging.

Do you maintain that SF are/were never guilty of vote manipulation- or maybe just a little bit or what?
It seems HMG strongly believed that in the 1983 General Election, SF gained 25% of their support through "intimidation" and "personation".
You can read all about it here.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0801/465679-british-archives/

You can't put that down to propaganda of any sort since the cabinet document in question was confidential and has only been made public at the beginning of this month.
What do you have to say about it?
You ask me why I think McGuinness didn't understand the role of the presidency and then go on to give quite a good synopsis of presidential duties.
Trouble is I have already attempted to do so not once but twice.
You know what a president is supposed to do; Marty did not when he set about canvassing for the job. I can rely o personal recollections when I say this because I heard him speak twice and I'm also going by what I read, saw or heard in a number of media outlets.
McGuinness promised to set up a forum where interested parties and individuals could meet and discuss matters of interest to the nation. Then he reckoned he'd take the concerns of the forum members to government and pressure it into action to address the same issues.
That sounded grand but Marty soon found out that he could do nothing of the sort as a president may not intervene in political matters while in office.
That's just one goof up. There are plenty more.
I have already asked you to come up with one positive report on Marty's campaigning style and promised in return to come with two to show he hadn't a clue.
You can put it all down to "SF indo/rte propeganda about the big bad SF boogiemen and all their evil deeds if you like but I'm asking you to back up what you have to say.
Nothing personal you understand. It's just that I'd like to what you are basing your suppositions on.

[Maguire01]

Where are SF in the polls old bean. I believe they very well could be in the next government if they wish to be, unless some how you have a veto on it. I wouldn't vote for them but then I know a lot who would.

Unless there's a major change in the political order, it won't be a decision for SF.

[Farrandeelin]

Lawnseed SF will not be in government in Ireland (Republic of) in the next 50 years.

I wouldn't rule out a FF/SF coalition after the next election.

Everyone else will, though.

Suppose you're right, Enda is the most popular leader in the world, ever. The economy is in good health, likewise the health service and the schools, unemployment is way below the E.U. average and the housing market is making a slow but steady recovery.

As opposed to SF's discount store populism? Beyond any concerns about going into coalition with a party that has 'links' (as in their leaders ran the bloody show) to paramilitary groups there's plenty of ideological reasons FF, Labour and FG won't touch SF.

I supposed the fact that many ff and fg tds attended the first dail sessions carrying guns.. but they were good guns weren't they

putting ff and fg together is logical they are and always have been the same party. they both have the same policies... all pigs on the one sow the sooner the better

Ah, they did indeed, although they weren't FF or FG at the time and they carried out their share of Northern Bank heists and Jerry McCabe murders as well. But that was about 80/90 years ago and people nowadays have no appetite for the shinners coming along and re-inventing that particular wheel all over again.
I don't think you really understand the way our electoral system works. We don't have your first past the post model so it's not as easy to fiddle the system as it is for you.
Once upon a time FF and FG get were fairly good at intimidating voters and voting twice with cards picked up from old folks' homes and the likes but things are a lot stricter now.
This would put the shinners at a disadvantage straightaway.

so once a certain period of time passes murder becomes ok? how long?

Forever I guess.

SF never wanted in the Irish state, now jog on back to administering British Rule in the north east of our island.

Awwww Lawnseed, don't be bringing that issue up. Don't ya know that's the one that ties our southern friends in knots. I wouldn't be expecting any detailed answers!!!

What detail do you want trueblue?

[trueblue1234]

I've just been through it with Lar (And to be fair his last post clarifies something I had picked us differently orginally). SF have given up the bullet and work solely on a political only basis now. Yet some posters would have them black balled for eternity due to their history with the IRA. But the same posters tend to overlook the orgins of other parties and actions of members within those parties because it was 90 odd years ago. Why?

[Syferus]

I've just been through it with Lar (And to be fair his last post clarifies something I had picked us differently orginally). SF have given up the bullet and work solely on a political only basis now. Yet some posters would have them black balled for eternity due to their history with the IRA. But the same posters tend to overlook the orgins of other parties and actions of members within those parties because it was 90 odd years ago. Why?

They'll be blacklisted as long as they're ran by senior IRA figures. Give people the choice between politicians without terrorist links and those who do and take a wild guess as to which of the two the majority will prefer.

SF is marmite and you need to be a nice bland piece of cucumber to be in the government here.

[Rossfan]

Most 26 Co Political parties up to the 1960s were all ran by Senior IRA figures ( although Dev like Gerry seemed to miss out on all the fighting).
However until the bright articulate types like Pearse Doherty become the leadership in SF they will struggle to get more than the dedicated SFs or protest vote.
By then they will simply have morphed into Labour circa mid 20th Century.