Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66

Started by vallankumous, January 09, 2017, 10:51:11 PM

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Applesisapples

Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.
Why? surely all the demonising being done, mostly in a one sided manner is counterproductive and not conducive to the two warring factions here reaching a compromise.

johnneycool

Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

The much maligned oration at McGuinness's graveside by Gerry Adams actually touched on this but people chose to ignore it;

https://www.periscope.tv/w/1mrGmeYdOvdGy

5 minutes on.

Keyser soze

Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

Not saying victims don't, I was mainly referring to other one-eyed commentators, all of whom appeared to be completely au fait with the inner workings of the RA in Derry and much further afield by the sounds of things all through the 70's and 80's. If only the security forces could have accessed the certain knowledge and proof all these guys had Martin would have caused a helluva lot less bother. The depth of their knowledge and certainty of the facts surrounding McGuinness is matched only by their blissful ignorance surrounding the involvement of any other protaganists in the conflict.

So,  a bit like you Michael.

ned

Quote from: haranguerer on March 30, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 29, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 29, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Watching the documentary last night I as struck by how many of the people who were demonising Martin McGuiness would have been strong supporters of the marine who murdered a wounded man in cold blood getting his sentence reduced or conviction quashed.

The double standards of the brits is breathtaking.

Nowhere near as bad as some of the +++++ on this board though.  ;)
Didn't see it myself - Who was it that was demonising Martin Mc Guiness?  The many victims of IRA terror, catholic and protestant alike, have every right to demonise him.

I think his point is the hypocrisy - venerating the marine who executed the wounded fighter. I agree with you, and I'm sure you couldn't argue with the many victims of British state terror having every right to demonise the British state.

Empire 2.0
In an era which attempts to cough-up a new version of Empire, Adam Ramsay offers up an extensive reading list for anyone who wants to avoid the mythology that the British Empire wasn't about: 'cheerful engineers, kindly building railways for people in far off lands'. Here's his list:

The Opium wars;
The Carnatic wars;
The Anglo-Cherokee war;
Pontiac's rebellion;
The Anglo Mysore wars;
The Anglo Maratha wars;
The American Revolutionary war;
The Irish Rebellion;
The Kandyan wars;
The Anglo-Turkishwar;
The Xhosa wars;
The Ga-Fante war;
The war of 1812;
The Anglo-Ashantiwars;
The Anglo-Burmese wars;
Canada's Rebellions of 1837;
The first, second and third Afghan wars;
The Anglo Sikh wars;
The Flagstaff war in New Zealand – and in fact the New Zealand wars in general;
The Anglo-Persian war;
The Black war;
The Indian Rebellion;
The First Taranaki war;
The invasion of Waikato;
The Bhutan war;
The Klang war;
The Titokowaru War;
The 1868 'Expedition' to Abyssinia;
The Red River Rebellion;
The Anglo-Zulu War;
The Sikkim Expedition;
The Anglo-Zanzibar War;
The Boer Wars;
The Anglo-Aro War;
The British expedition to Tibet;
The Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War;
the Irish War of Independence;
The 1920 conflict between British forces and the Dervish State;
the Great Arab Revolt in Palestine;
The British–Zionist conflict;
the Korean War;
the Mau Mau Uprising;
the Cyprus emergency;
the Suez Crisis;
the Border Campaign against the IRA;
the Falklands War.

(Just a few, then.)

Main Street

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 28, 2017, 09:45:45 AM
Quote from: Main Street on March 27, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 27, 2017, 10:30:09 AM
Maloney is a journalist, not an historian so you cannot accept as gospel all he writes, that is not to say there are not elemnts of truth. His job though is to sell books. The very people who point the finger at McGuinness et al are the same one who lionise Carson, Craig, Collins, De Valera etc... Some of them have even voted to send UK bombers and troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them rejoiced at the sinking of the Belgrano. War is dirty i for one do not condone it or the right of any one to kill for any cause, but some balance please.
Apples, you're asking me to decide for myself which part of Maloney's account is truth and which is lies?
We were asked to comment on an article which claimed to have account of McGuinness' actions and in which final damming judgements were passed by Maloney on McGuinness. Maloney has set himself up on a moral and judgemental pedestal.
Veracity is the issue when reading such an account.
When Maloney's credibility as a journalist or historian is shattered in the first two paragraphs,
it is safe to dismiss all he writes in the article. If he ascribes truth to a secret source who we cannot scrutinise, then we have no idea just how much balderdash he tags onto his article in order to support his agenda. And when a source does provide an account which supports Maloney's agenda, what scrutiny does Maloney exercise to inspect that source's account and what importance does he give to witness accounts of the same incident which oppose his agenda?
No I am saying he cannot be read as an historian, but as someone with a skewed version of events to suit his own angle, as is the case with most journalists.
Fair enough. I assume the sparse elements of truth in Maloney's account you refer to, are there to carry a ton of speculations and mistruths.. ;D


Owen Brannigan

#440
From today's Newsletter.........


Dr Philip McGarry: The terrorism of McGuinness and others was not 'mindless' - it was mindful Bloodied and shaken.

Friday 31 March 2017

Last week, we witnessed the bizarre juxtaposition of the national media and political establishment going into complete overdrive following the murder of four people in London by a man armed with a car and two knives, alongside a dramatically different response to the death of Martin McGuinness. Mr McGuinness, as outlined in Saturday's News Letter by Ed Moloney ('He was savagely cruel but only McGuinness could end the terror'), for so much more suffering.

While Islamists have killed only 57 people in the UK the IRA claimed over 1,770 victims. Whereas Khalid Masood and Michael Adebolajo (who killed Gunner Lee Rigby in 2013) fortunately had no access to firearms or explosives, the IRA had a large arsenal of sophisticated weaponry and the technical capacity to carry out operations at the heart of government, such as the Brighton bombing and the mortar attack on Downing Street. In truth Masood, variously described as 'a maniac', 'sick and depraved' and (my favourite mindless insult) 'mindless', posed no fundamental threat to British democracy. The IRA, arguably, did.

It is instructive to note that 30 years ago the IRA and the loyalist paramilitaries were routinely described as ' maniacs', 'crazy', 'blood - thirsty' or 'psychopaths'. This was nonsense. Politically motivated violence/terrorism is by definition mindful; it is designed to achieve a political end. Few paramilitaries are mentally ill; indeed the mentally ill would make highly ineffective paramilitaries. Everyone loves a narrative, and that of the 'bad' man becoming a 'good' man is universally compelling.

The aftermath of the Westminster terror attack last week. It was carried out by one man, who had nothing like the access to the arms of the IRA, which has caused many more deaths than Islamic extremists have done in Britain This was the major theme of much of last week's commentary. This is perhaps rather insulting to Martin Mc Guinness as it implies that the 22 year old who met Willie Whitelaw in London was a thoughtless, violent 'Paddy', who was somehow transformed into a totally different Gandhi-type figure. In fact he was always a thoughtful, intelligent strategic thinker who understood that every current generation of physical force nationalists is roundly condemned, by people who simultaneously condone the previous generation who did exactly the same things! Mr McGuinness illustrated this himself by persistently condemning the 'New IRA' as 'criminals' for attacking police officera and shooting young men in the legs.

I have been a consultant psychiatrist since 1991, for much of that time in West Belfast. I did see a few patients who had suffered ill treatment by the army and police. Dr Philip McGarry, consultant psychiatrist and Alliance Party member However this was overwhelmingly dwarfed by the number I saw who were shot or beaten by republican paramilitaries, which were – in a truly Orwellian phrase – deemed by the two governments to be 'on ceasefire'. And we think Donald Trump invented 'alternative facts'!

It is entirely correct that Northern Ireland, prior to 1969 was in many ways a partially sectarian Protestant state; equally the Republic was a partially sectarian Catholic state. However no respectable independent body has ever argued nor could argue that the violence of the loyalists and republicans was a legitimate or remotely proportionate response to those wrongs. It is deeply regrettable that it took so long for that basic concept to be accepted, and it should have us hanging our heads in shame that we had to endure the Abercorn bar, McGurks bar, Enniskillen, the Greysteel massacre and so many other relentless, tawdry killings over so many years.

We should indeed be thankful that large scale violence is unlikely ever to return. Two cheers for that. But the price must not be a psychological amnesia about the past, nor a ''post- truth' rewriting of history. Our young people must not be brought up to believe that the violence was other than totally wrong. To murder human beings and secretly bury the bodies, to cut a man's throat because he happens to be a Catholic, to use men as human bombs; these are such obviously foul and cruel deeds that no society can function properly without openly acknowledging and dealing with them.

Germany is now possibly the world's leading democracy, specifically because it has never stopped taking responsibility for what its people did, and learning from it. One of David Cameron's finest moments was his statement in the House of Commons on the launch of the Saville report that Bloody Sunday was 'unjustified and unjustifiable'. This had the virtue of being simple, clear and honest, and it made a genuine, immediate and lasting impact.

In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.

Dr Philip McGarry, whose younger brother is the comedian Tim, is a consultant psychiatrist in Belfast, who worked in the west of the city for 18 years and is a member of the Alliance Party.

foxcommander

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 31, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.


That will never and should never happen. You can not revise history like that. Time and place. You can look back with regret of all the things that were done and make sure it never happens again.
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

Windmill abu

It looks like the wrong brother is hosting "The Blame Game"
Never underestimate the power of complaining

Avondhu star

Quote from: Windmill abu on April 01, 2017, 12:54:21 AM
It looks like the wrong brother is hosting "The Blame Game"
Because he tells the truth and isnt blinded by propaganda
Lee Harvey Oswald , your country needs you

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: foxcommander on March 31, 2017, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 31, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
In the wake of the many generous and warm tributes paid from across the spectrum last week to the contribution made by Martin McGuinness in his later years, is it conceivable that Sinn Fein could now state, without equivocation, that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable? That would be a real contribution to peace.


That will never and should never happen. You can not revise history like that. Time and place. You can look back with regret of all the things that were done and make sure it never happens again.


That statement is not re-writing history, it is asking the question as to whether Sinn Fein will every agree with the majority of people in N.Ireland that the violence of the IRA was unjustified and unjustifiable?  Perhaps you should take a read at the article by Newton Emerson in the Irish Times that explores the fact that the majority of the people in N.Ireland never participated in the conflict, despite their experience of it never felt the need to join with any of the protagonists and most of them just got on with their lives with little regard for what was happening around them.


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-troubles-did-not-find-martin-mcguinness-he-found-them-1.3029156


https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/03/30/northern-ireland-survived-the-troubles-through-those-who-kept-small-quotidian-bonds-of-trust/

grounded

The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

Minder

Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Over the Bar

Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 

It will never happen

Quite simply no.  When the DUP won't even admit that the Unionist majority discriminated against Catholics it's pretty unlikely they'll come clean about their hand in glove relationship with Loyalist paramilitaries which continues to this day.

Minder

Quote from: Over the Bar on April 01, 2017, 10:55:15 PM
Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 

It will never happen

Quite simply no.  When the DUP won't even admit that the Unionist majority discriminated against Catholics it's pretty unlikely they'll come clean about their hand in glove relationship with Loyalist paramilitaries which continues to this day.

SF no interest either
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

theticklemister

Quote from: Minder on April 01, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: grounded on April 01, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
The only thing that has any hope of working would be some form of truth and reconciliation forum like they had in SA. Anyrhing else i.e. trying to exclusively blame one group or another wont work. Many groups had a hand in the '  troubles '  e.g. both governments,  some political parties,  paramilitary groups and others.
                     By the logic of McGarry Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael should also apologise for the actions of the IRA during the war of independence or were their actions justified(there were plenty of atrocities during this conflict as well)?
                 
                     

It will never happen

Just like........

No decommissioning
Smash Stormont
No to meeting the Queen

  ::) ::) ::)