Messages

Like yourself Benny I find it hard to believe people could still have genuine medical concerns given the millions of vaccines that have now been administered around the world.

In fairness a simple google search will provide numerous "bat shit crazy" anti covid conspiracy nut jobs. Look up anything Gemma O'Doherty and/or John Waters have to say on the subject for example

You can increase suspensions all you want but until you clean up the rule book and clubs/counties continue to appeal even the most blatant red cards nothing will change.

I don't think there's a sport in the world were indiscipline is ignored and so many suspensions overturned on ridiculous technicalities and the actual sending off offence is ignored

A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

Dead right. Keep it all the same, it's working great.

It's normally around this time of year the draw for next year's provincial championship takes place. Exciting times for the Leinster and Munster championship in particular. I'm sure the likes of Carlow/Wexford and Louth will be hoping to get the dubs and a chance for their game to be covered by RTE

Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

In what way will this current dubs team coast through? They aren't the invincible team they used to be

A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don't we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.

Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they're still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It's not about funding, it's about numbers and that's where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won't bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.

That's it in a nutshell. No point in these players training to get hammered in the championship and what's worse for some of them is their own out of touch dinosaur delegates voted against a better championship for them.

They'd be better boff off sodding of to US/Australia rather than stay in Ireland to get battered/humiliated

All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.

Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages

Some of the narrative round this vote has been depressing. And can sum up what the issues across the GAA are. At the top level - county board, provincial, central council - we have lots of people who see committees and meetings as been at the core of the GAA and tradition been the bedrock.

Fail to see what's going round them and how a few big days in Croke Park, more games and increased pricing has masked the strength of the GAA in recent years. The product itself matters little to a lot of people until the big day out when there will be competition.

We have one person who came up with the options talking them down and saying they need amendments. Amateur hour.

Took a progressive county board like Offaly who said they'd support to get the ball rolling. Offaly aren't a county feeling sorry for themselves and looking others to do it for them. They going out and been active and slowly get rewards. The provincial councils see a challenge coming and dismiss it and everything that comes with it. Rather than seeing opportunities and progressive thinking they run and hide.

They talk about traditional games. It wasn't until recently that they actually started club competitions across all grades. Senior club provincial games aren't about 130 years either. Wasn't until the 70s they started. Intermediate and Junior grades started much later and all these competitions came about because progressive clubs seen these games as opportunities and held good watch tournaments and then later the invitation tournaments for intermediate and junior clubs. Such was their success wasn't long until they became officially under the banner of the provincial councils.

Self preservation is all they see. Leinster county boards have proved this time and time again once Dublins money dangled in front of them.

All the talk now seems to be about keeping more teams in the knock out stages. Why? If you don't qualify you don't qualify. Not as if Div 3 or 4 teams are going to take up half a dozen places. They get an outside chance.

I just don't know if any ambition exists. Roll it out and make it all work. We can amend when it's running after a number of years but the Intercounty championship game of 2019 is dead.

That's a great post. Even on this thread you've got posters criticising plan B because 1 team in division one might be inconvienced. Forget the fact the new plan will benefit many counties, 1  county could potentially lose out so that means vote no.

The ironic thing is the same people will be moaning over counties like Dublin strolling through the provincial championship as it is and claiming they've an unfair advantage

The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.

How exactly do can you get Leitrm/Carlow to compete with Dublin and Mayo on a regular basis? You can throw all the funding/coaching in the world at both counties but with their size and playing numbers neither county will ever win Sam.

The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.

You are saying let's not make perfect the enemy of good.  It's not as if Option B is good.   
No point going from one broken system to a worse system on the basis that change is necessary, anything is better than what we have.  I do not know how on earth these proposals were arrived at, but it will not fix the problems we have and to put this scutter to congress only wastes an opportunity.

I think option B while not perfect is a good idea. I also think it's far better than the current system. No one has said the rules can't be amended after this in future to further improve them and no one could become up with a system that would please everyone.

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

[Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.]

Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League

Eight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1.  Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..

The teams that finished above them are all better, but they should be allowed try again against them in the knock out stages? Sure put all the div 1 teams in the knock out stages then if that's the case. A line has to be drawn somewhere. Expecting a team to be the 5th best to qualify isn't unreasonable

Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League