Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[Dreadnought]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

[InnocentByStander]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

[general_lee]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

[Dreadnought]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

They won 2 from 12 without county men and finished bottom of the table. Then ambushed a relegation playoff.

Make no mistake, they are not a Senior level team. I cannot understand how people can think a team that got relegated to Junior in 21 and lost a Junior final in 22 are suddenly fit to be a Senior team. Their Championship results show that. An odd League set-up which is played without county players is not representative of all the teams. Is this really hard to understand?

[Dreadnought]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Each team are where they are for a reason. Ballyhaise a good side, but have lost multiple Intermediate finals in recent years before this year. They were not good enough to get up before this.

[Westside]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

[Ethan Tremblay]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

They won 2 from 12 without county men and finished bottom of the table. Then ambushed a relegation playoff.

Make no mistake, they are not a Senior level team. I cannot understand how people can think a team that got relegated to Junior in 21 and lost a Junior final in 22 are suddenly fit to be a Senior team. Their Championship results show that. An odd League set-up which is played without county players is not representative of all the teams. Is this really hard to understand?

I really struggle to see your argument. 
I mean, a team that is capable of winning 2 games against other senior teams, and then manage to defeat another senior team to stay in the top division, cannot be that bad that they compete in junior?

No disrespect to any junior teams in Armagh, but if they were playing in the top division in the league, they would be getting tanked every week, there would be no wins for them, no draws,  no close results. 
Senior teams are senior for a reason, and junior are junior for a reason and compete at that level come championship, because the playing field is truly level. 

The other junior teams in Cavan that play junior league, whats their stance on teams plying their trade all year in the senior team playing junior champo, surley they cannot be happy with that?

[tiempo]

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

All Cavan's provincial reps played Senior league this year, weak mentality in the county pushing this drivel and amalgamations into provincial underage competitions

[general_lee]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

I'm familiar with Stewartstown, for all intents and purposes they're a middling Intermediate team that slipped into junior (Covid-related) and came right back up again. So for a Cavan Junior team to take them to extra time leads me to believe that like Stewartstown, they're not actually Junior standard.

[InnocentByStander]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

They won 2 from 12 without county men and finished bottom of the table. Then ambushed a relegation playoff.

Make no mistake, they are not a Senior level team. I cannot understand how people can think a team that got relegated to Junior in 21 and lost a Junior final in 22 are suddenly fit to be a Senior team. Their Championship results show that. An odd League set-up which is played without county players is not representative of all the teams. Is this really hard to understand?

They managed not to get relegated to Div 3, What's stopping them from tanking for a few years to go down and get success because to me it sounds very do able.

[clarshack]

I'm familiar with Stewartstown, for all intents and purposes they're a middling Intermediate team that slipped into junior (Covid-related) and came right back up again. So for a Cavan Junior team to take them to extra time leads me to believe that like Stewartstown, they're not actually Junior standard.

Drumlane were the slightly better team that day and can consider themselves very unlucky to have lost on penalties.
They were a big physical team and would have been the equivalent of a top half Tyrone Division 2 side. They also had at least 3 players who played for Cavan Seniors at some stage as well - Dane O'Dowd, Ryan Connolly and whatever you called their full back. Think they finished joint top of Division 2 with Arva last year but Arva won the playoffs final. Arva 2023 version will be a stronger outfit than Drumlane 2022 from the benefit of their Division 1 experience.

[Dreadnought]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

They won 2 from 12 without county men and finished bottom of the table. Then ambushed a relegation playoff.

Make no mistake, they are not a Senior level team. I cannot understand how people can think a team that got relegated to Junior in 21 and lost a Junior final in 22 are suddenly fit to be a Senior team. Their Championship results show that. An odd League set-up which is played without county players is not representative of all the teams. Is this really hard to understand?

I really struggle to see your argument. 
I mean, a team that is capable of winning 2 games against other senior teams, and then manage to defeat another senior team to stay in the top division, cannot be that bad that they compete in junior?

No disrespect to any junior teams in Armagh, but if they were playing in the top division in the league, they would be getting tanked every week, there would be no wins for them, no draws,  no close results. 
Senior teams are senior for a reason, and junior are junior for a reason and compete at that level come championship, because the playing field is truly level. 

The other junior teams in Cavan that play junior league, whats their stance on teams plying their trade all year in the senior team playing junior champo, surley they cannot be happy with that?

It's literally this simple: In Championship they were poor enough in 2021 to win 1 from 4 in Intermediate and then lose a relegation playoff to get relegated to Junior. And then last year lost a Junior final. Any team supposedly good enough for Senior is not doing the likes of that.

It is honestly mind boggling to me how much ye have this the wrong way round. I'd understand if both were linked nad teams moved up and down on merits of both. But they don't here. Their Championship record has them where they are, and one result in Ulster against what looks like a poor team from a County with equally weird layouts does not mean that these are some unbelievable Senior side based on League. If they walk the All Ireland maybe we could talk, but hold your horses

[Lucifer]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

I'm familiar with Stewartstown, for all intents and purposes they're a middling Intermediate team that slipped into junior (Covid-related) and came right back up again. So for a Cavan Junior team to take them to extra time leads me to believe that like Stewartstown, they're not actually Junior standard.

So what you are saying is that Stewartstown shouldn't have been a Junior team but nevertheless ended up a Junior team, despite this being based on the presumed correct way of doing things via the league.  Have yous thought of basing the gradings off the Championship

[marty34]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

My issue with the club leagues is that start far too early.

Club lads will be training like mad from January on even though there's a 'split season' now.

Push the club leagues back 6 weeks and start training in March.

[general_lee]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

I'm familiar with Stewartstown, for all intents and purposes they're a middling Intermediate team that slipped into junior (Covid-related) and came right back up again. So for a Cavan Junior team to take them to extra time leads me to believe that like Stewartstown, they're not actually Junior standard.

So what you are saying is that Stewartstown shouldn't have been a Junior team but nevertheless ended up a Junior team, despite this being based on the presumed correct way of doing things via the league.  Have yous thought of basing the gradings off the Championship

Precisely. I think Tyrone amended their leagues as a one-off during Covid and for whatever reason Stewartstown ended up being relegated to Junior. Hence why they were talked up so much as being contenders for an AI club junior. Not for one second do I think Stewartstown were a junior club last year.