Middle right Nationalism, is there such a thing?

[firestarter]

Why is Nationalsim/Republicanism so synonymous with Left wing politics? Both Nationalist parties in the North are socialist/liberal. If a nationalist/republican had a slightly more conservative political outlook they would find themselves completely unrepresented.

[muppet]

Why is Nationalsim/Republicanism so synonymous with Left wing politics? Both Nationalist parties in the North are socialist/liberal. If a nationalist/republican had a slightly more conservative political outlook they would find themselves completely unrepresented.

Because the Empire would have been perceived as Capitalist and right wing and Nationalists/Republicans assumed they must be the opposite.

Given the Brits were mainly heterosexual, it is surprising that we aren't all devout lesbians.

[trileacman]

Why is Nationalsim/Republicanism so synonymous with Left wing politics? Both Nationalist parties in the North are socialist/liberal. If a nationalist/republican had a slightly more conservative political outlook they would find themselves completely unrepresented.

Because the Empire would have been perceived as Capitalist and right wing and Nationalists/Republicans assumed they must be the opposite.

Given the Brits were mainly heterosexual, it is surprising that we aren't all devout lesbians.

There probably was but given their outlook they all died off.

[Oraisteach]

Muppet, would you please leave Khadaffi and those Lesbians out of this discussion.

[firestarter]

I understand the historical rationale but from a current perspective I don't understand why this political view point seems non-existant or at least unrepresented.

[firestarter]

Thats what I am tryiing to establish, if there are any such people with a similar view. In regard to what you were saying about the wide spectrum of views amoung the SF electorate eg business men I would imagine some of them vote for SF as a means to an end!

[armaghniac]

A NI with a self sustaining private sector and an efficient public sector is a fundamental requirement to achieve a UI. The problem is that SF are largely incapable of promoting this as they largely see themselves in the business of distributing wealth rather than creating it.

[Pangurban]

You pose a very good question, based on a wrong assumption, that all Republican/Nationalist parties are left of centre. There are many historical reasons as to why they are perceived to be so, and their own rhetoric adds to this impression. The fact is that no labour movement has ever prospered North or South. The parties which have been successful, FF and FG in the south, Unionist,SDLP and latterly SF in the North, are all broad church parties, with a strong vein of social conservatism and a practical flexible outlook on ecomic matters, which appeals to the working and middle classes. The fact that both socities were largely rural facilitated this stance, as did partition which prevented the development of normal class politics. The strong influence of all the churches was also a major factor.  Even with the move towards a more Urban based electorate,  the decline in Church influence, and the heat being taken out of the partition debate, there is little sign that attitudes will change. In short, there is no place in Ireland for a left wing party

[Hardy]

That's a pretty good analysis and summation, Pangurban. I'd nearly say you couldn't write a book on class politics in 20th century Ireland that could say more in 20 chapters than you have in a paragraph.

[Eamonnca1]

I consider myself a slightly to the right of centre nationalist, and I don't see much worth voting for in the north so I've never really bothered sorting out my proxy voting arrangements.

SF are fond of waving the red flag and sending best wishes to Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez from their ard fheis, but when you speak to senior members of the party about it they claim that it's a party of the centre.

On a more general note, I remember reading something about the way peoples' minds are wired.  Some people have an inherent fear of change and are all about preserving things the way they are because they perceive that as being successful, such people are fearful by nature and tend to lean to the right.  Other people see the need for change and embrace change as being essential to human progress.  Such people are less fearful and are more inclined to lean to the left.

Putting that in Northern Ireland* terms, you've got nationalists who want to change (and are more inclined to lean to the left) and unionists who have built a whole political ideology around blocking change as if their lives depended on it (and are more inclined to lean to the right). Leftist unionists and right-wing nationalists are probably so small in number that there's not enough of them to form representative parties to articulate their viewpoints, so they pick the closest one that's available to them on their own side of the orange/green divide or else just don't bother voting. That's my theory anyway.

I think that the tendency of politics over the long term (in Europe anyway) is for people to move closer to the centre.  The days are gone when your only choice was between 100% laissez faire capitalism on the one hand and communism on the other.  More people are coming around to the idea that there's a role for the state and a role for the private sector, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing approach.  People who have to actually make decisions in government tend to moderate any ideological positions they might have, hence as someone mentioned SF's more centrist approach in the north where they're in government which contrasts with their opposition status in the south.

* I sometimes say "the north" but that wouldn't make much sense here, so I don't mind occasionally referring to the state by its actual name.  I think people who go out of their way to say "the six counties" or anything equally convoluted are not much different from the people who go out of their way to say "Londonderry" when a much shorter alternative is available. If you have thoughts on that topic, please start another thread on it because this thread has the potential to be a lot more interesting.

[Billys Boots]

You pose a very good question, based on a wrong assumption, that all Republican/Nationalist parties are left of centre. There are many historical reasons as to why they are perceived to be so, and their own rhetoric adds to this impression. The fact is that no labour movement has ever prospered North or South. The parties which have been successful, FF and FG in the south, Unionist,SDLP and latterly SF in the North, are all broad church parties, with a strong vein of social conservatism and a practical flexible outlook on ecomic matters, which appeals to the working and middle classes. The fact that both socities were largely rural facilitated this stance, as did partition which prevented the development of normal class politics. The strong influence of all the churches was also a major factor.  Even with the move towards a more Urban based electorate,  the decline in Church influence, and the heat being taken out of the partition debate, there is little sign that attitudes will change. In short, there is no place in Ireland for a left wing party

Good post.

[MR99]

Thats what I am tryiing to establish, if there are any such people with a similar view. In regard to what you were saying about the wide spectrum of views amoung the SF electorate eg business men I would imagine some of them vote for SF as a means to an end!

I would be of similar view to yourself and my own political views would be middle right, but given the general thinking of people in the North there is no way a middle right nationalist party would survive.  Real 'politics' as such has never existed in the North as primarily our voting has been based along nationalist / loyalist lines and very few of our 'politicians' can actually handle themselves when faced with questions based aroung tax rates, inflation, the general economy etc... which is why Stormont is in such a mess. 

Economically the 6 counties are too dependent on state handouts, governement sponsored jobs etc... that it wouldn't 'pay' to argue for middle right politics, just compare the number of civil service jobs here compared to the south or the UK. 

If a middle right party started there would be a fear that it would split the nationalist vote and let in unionists so therefore it is very unlikely to happen.  Would you vote for a middle right unionist before you vote for a leftist nationalist just because they are middle right?  Very few would.

[Rossfan]

You pose a very good question, based on a wrong assumption, that all Republican/Nationalist parties are left of centre. There are many historical reasons as to why they are perceived to be so, and their own rhetoric adds to this impression. The fact is that no labour movement has ever prospered North or South. The parties which have been successful, FF and FG in the south, Unionist,SDLP and latterly SF in the North, are all broad church parties, with a strong vein of social conservatism and a practical flexible outlook on ecomic matters, which appeals to the working and middle classes. The fact that both socities were largely rural facilitated this stance, as did partition which prevented the development of normal class politics. The strong influence of all the churches was also a major factor.  Even with the move towards a more Urban based electorate,  the decline in Church influence, and the heat being taken out of the partition debate, there is little sign that attitudes will change. In short, there is no place in Ireland for a left wing party

good post indeed... but why oh why is Left/right "Class" politics seen as "normal" or edesirable??

[firestarter]

A NI with a self sustaining private sector and an efficient public sector is a fundamental requirement to achieve a UI. The problem is that SF are largely incapable of promoting this as they largely see themselves in the business of distributing wealth rather than creating it.

Very true...

[firestarter]

You pose a very good question, based on a wrong assumption, that all Republican/Nationalist parties are left of centre. There are many historical reasons as to why they are perceived to be so, and their own rhetoric adds to this impression. The fact is that no labour movement has ever prospered North or South. The parties which have been successful, FF and FG in the south, Unionist,SDLP and latterly SF in the North, are all broad church parties, with a strong vein of social conservatism and a practical flexible outlook on ecomic matters, which appeals to the working and middle classes. The fact that both socities were largely rural facilitated this stance, as did partition which prevented the development of normal class politics. The strong influence of all the churches was also a major factor.  Even with the move towards a more Urban based electorate,  the decline in Church influence, and the heat being taken out of the partition debate, there is little sign that attitudes will change. In short, there is no place in Ireland for a left wing party

Firstly I wish this assumption was wrong but it isn't. The social conservatism you attribute to SF and SDLP was only present (tolerated) because of the strong influence of the catholic church, the absense of an actual economy and the conflict in the north which meant that neither party had to formulate any actual policy.
Now that the business of politics has began here and the influence of the chuch is in terminal decline you will see that they are infact left wing parties!