Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Pangurban

Totally agree Ardmhachaabu, no one should be demonised except the guilty, and i include those involved in the cover up amongst the guilty. But you and i both know that if the laity do not demand and force the speed of change, very little will happen. We owe it too the vast majority of good Priests, to lift this burden from them

muppet

Quote from: Pangurban on November 27, 2009, 09:27:49 PM
Totally agree Ardmhachaabu, no one should be demonised except the guilty, and i include those involved in the cover up amongst the guilty. But you and i both know that if the laity do not demand and force the speed of change, very little will happen. We owe it too the vast majority of good Priests, to lift this burden from them

Agreed. The rush to avoid scandal ends up causing the tarring of innocent and decent people with the same brush as those being protected.
MWWSI 2017

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
I disagree muppet, I think you will find that the people are the Church for that Arch-Diocese, just like any other
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

muppet

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:35:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
I disagree muppet, I think you will find that the people are the Church for that Arch-Diocese, just like any other

That is mere semantics. The people in positions of authority make the decisions on behalf of the Church, not the people. In fact more than any other organisation I can think of, the people have no say whatsoever. It is all dogma.
MWWSI 2017

ardmhachaabu

muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 05:27:20 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!

It's not just going without, it's enforced abstinence, or supposed to be, and I'd reckon there were more than a few that took that vow under emotional duress. And I haven't said that that's the sole reason, but it is part of the mix IMO. If it isn't, why don't the non-Catholic churches have the same problem to the same degree (they all have their perverts, but not to the extent that the Catholic Church does)?

Can you answer me that?

Of course, like I also said, it became a bolthole for perverts too, with the complicity of the State. Shameful.
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

muppet

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
MWWSI 2017

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.



Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

muppet

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
MWWSI 2017

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow.
Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from! 
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:58:34 PM
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from!

I've already said I don't have proof (but when the only evidence you have are the prevailing factors, you make a reasoned judgement, then you test the hypothesis). And no, I'm not saying when people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, feck off PoG, and read back a bit and quit putting words in my mouth. Lazy fecker, you like straw-men arguments.

I've already said what you're saying in your second paragraph about the haven, many, many posts ago. Ho hum  ::)
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

Franko

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:58:34 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow.
Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from!

I have to agree with FOSB here.  I dont think that celibacy was the main factor in these priests doing what they did. However, to forcibly suppress the natural human urge to have sex has to cause some sort of psychological disruption in a person and to think that it was not a factor at all is being very naive imho.

pintsofguinness

Which one of you bitches wants to dance?