Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

pintsofguinness

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 21, 2009, 08:19:42 PM
Quote
Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I'm sory ardmhacha it sounds like you're looking ways to defend the indefensible. 
I dont see how the church alerting the police to the abuse they've discovered would put the church at risk. 
Pints, again I was replying to someone who was blaming the Popes.  I am not seeking to defend what happened.  That would be stupid and wrong.

You do know that members of the clergy alerted the authorities at various times throughout the years and were ignored ?

In my opinion, highlighting the abuse at an earlier stage would have been the right thing to do.  It didn't happen like that so I am putting my own interpretation on it as to why that happened the way it did.
Fair enough, who knows why the church sat on it and I could buy that they didnt want it to get out as it would damage them (still unacceptable imo)
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

ardmhachaabu

I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

pintsofguinness

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:44:28 PM
I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.

Well obviously, I guess they thought attitudes would never change, that there would never be a day when such a report would be issued.

I'm truely ashamed of our previous generations, my mother was telling me there she mentioned the report to an aunt of hers - she must be near 90 - this morning and the aunt's response was "I wouldnt believe everything I hear".  Unbelievable!
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Tony Baloney

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:44:28 PM
I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.

stew

The Church is at fault because it knew about sadistic brothers/ priests as well as the perverse ones, their response was either to ignore them or reassign them elsewhere. what the feck did they think ws going to happen at their new locations???? Guilty.

The State is at fault because not only did it fail to protect the most innocent of its citizens but it actually condemned thousands to lives scarred by sexual depravity and torture at the hands of those who should have been protecting them. Guilty.

The Church MUST come clean, 100% no matter the consequences once and for all.

The state must burden some of the financial and moral blame here, they must do what is right and they must make sure this never happens again.

God Bless those who have to live with the horror of this situation, we will never know the true numbers and it is to our eternal shame as a nation that this was allowed to go on in our Country unchecked.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

Maguire01

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:10:58 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 07:49:50 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 07:16:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 01:14:57 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 20, 2009, 11:46:24 PM
QuoteDo you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Tell me this Maguire, who are you to judge anyone?
I'm not judging anyone, merely commenting on someone else's opinion - this being a discussion board - that there may be a 'greater good' than defending children.

I don't believe there is a justifiably higher priority here than protecting the children. I think any attempts to do so are disgraceful.
Yes, you are judging.  You are judging me for one with your 'disgraceful' comment.

Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I am not condoning those clergy who were involved just to be clear and I also believe they were very evil people who manipulated young people.
Call it judging if it makes you feel better. I said your comment was disgraceful - not you. But if that's judging you, then so be it.

Main Street

Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:01:50 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.


Tony Baloney

Quote from: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:01:50 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.


I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
Quote from: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:01:50 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.


I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!
I liked Sleepers, it had a happy ending!
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

mylestheslasher

Abuse was endemic. That is the key. It means than a lot more than a few bad apples were at the root of this. The report says the abuse was "systematic". I heard a story on RTE radio 1 this morning. It told of a new brother who started at one of these schools. He didn't like to beat the kids. The other brothers teased this guy and told him he'd have to get tough or the boys would think he was a sissy. One day he finally gave in and hammered the head of some young lad. He entered the staff room and got a standing ovation and cheers from the whole staff! This is sick and is not a few bad apples - this was the system.

Now there are those that say things have changed. Really? Lets look at what the report said about the christian brothers behaviour over the past 10 years. The report says they obstructed the investigation. Their apologies were always guarded and conditional. They claimed that 50% of the claims were lies and made for money. They sued the enquiry so that the commission can not name the names of the abusers. So where are the decent priests today within the christian brothers that will stand up and say I am a better man than this shitty corrupt self serving bastard of an organisation. If I was a good man within this organisation I would walk, no question.

Prime time is on now and the haunting faces of little kids in black and white photos from these schools is staring out of the TV. Little kids of 4/5 yrs old. Just a little older than my own daughter. It sickens me to the pit of my stomach. Any of you who's first reaction is to lauch a defence of the church really need to take a look at yourselves.

Elections are coming up now. The tax payer is paying 1 billion euro to cover all these claims, the church gave 100 million I think. This needs to reversed and if it can't be legally then the government should refuse funding to any catholic church project until 1 billion is recouped. Maybe the vatican could sell of some of the gold that adorns their huge palaces to pay the bill. The same vatican that buried the dirty secrets of Irelands industrial schools deep in its vaults.

orangeman

One rotten bastard made a lad who defecated eat his own shit - another bastard made another lad who soiled himself and it got on to the brother's shoe made the young lad lick it off the sole of his shoe.


These bastards were so perverted, so evil, so corrupt that it defies logic. Words can't describe the pian and suffering they caused.


Was listening to one man this morning who was getting the shite knocked out of him every day but who didn't mention anything to his mother when she visited every month - when asked why he said he didn't want to upset his mother more than she was already.

His crime ?? He stole a bicycle !

Tony Baloney

The levels of depravity shown in some stories are reminiscent of the behaviour of the Nazis towards Jews in the concentration camps. These people had evil coursing through their veins and had a peculiar way of spreading the Good News!

I feel genuine pity for anyone that had to endure a minute in the company of those bastards.

Main Street

Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!
Doubt is not that type of film, I'm telling you, have a look, if after 20 minutes you don't like it, walk away.

Pangurban

There will be no justice for victims, nor no meaningful change in the system, until a Bishop, Head of religious order, or government minister, is placed in the dock to account for their stewardship. Then and only then will justice be seen to be done.  Until that happens, nothing has changed. At the root of all of this is class. None of the abused come from upper or middle class backgrounds

armaghniac

Class is very relevant here, there wasn't much sign of this stuff in Blackrock College and no son of a judge or doctor was interfered with. These orders ran regular schools that contributed greatly to Irish education. In the past there was a "spare the rod and spoil the child" mentality and all schools had an element of violence about them. But if you attended a regular school and had a pretty positive experience it was natural to think that other schools run by the same order were similar, i.e. you might get the strap from time to time but you'd get a good education. Normal people could hardly imagine some of the sexual stuff. It is clear that there was two tier system in place, schools with orphans and industrial schools were run on entirely different principles. The perverts and paedophiles made sure to end up in these places where the culture allowed them do what they liked and where parents could not easily control them. But the administrators of these orders knew what was going on and allowed it continue to the eternal shame of the Catholic church.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B