Poll
Question:
What is your preferred nationality? (Choose one)
Option 1: British
Option 2: European
Option 3: Irish
Option 4: Northern Irish
I was thinking about this after reading the US Open thread and how some "young people" define their nationality as Northern Irish. I don't consider myself young but I am happy to identify myself as being Northern Irish. I have a healthy dislike of both British nationality (as manifested by Loyalist/Unionists in NI) and Irish nationality (as manifested by people in the ROI who left their fellow nationalists to suffer in NI and who totally sold out to consumer culture from the early 1990s).
so is there anything ya like then
my opinion, for what it's worth:
I have zero attachment to any kind of British identity and the six counties to me is a statelet which was set up on a sectarian basis and to which I never ever have nor ever will feel any shred of allegience. It is symbolised by it's attachment to Britain (see my first sentence), by a flag I have no respect or affinity towards, by an OWC mindset which is alien to me, by it's supposed position as part of a foreign woman's 'kingdom' and by an identity crisis where on any given day, someone who feels an allegience to it will refer to it one minute as a country, then as a state, then as a region, then as a province...etc etc
My flag is Green, White and Orange, my games are Gaelic, my Christened names are Irish, my music of choice is Irish folk. None of these things are intrinsically "northern Irish". They are intrinsically Irish.
Many other countries have their Patriots, just as Ireland has. In many countries these Patriots are remembered with honesty. I could never allow myself to claim to honour Irelands many generations of fallen Patriots and simultaneously claim to have any allegience to any partitioned off region of Ireland which lies under British jurisdiction.
Someone who claims to be nationalist/republican but says they are now comfortable to be "northern Irish" in my view are simply getting sucked into what the British Government referred to as 'normalisation'. That is a trap I have to intention of falling into.
I'm happy to recognise the existence of the 6 county* state for the time being since you can't really have a civil society if the people don't recognise the institutions of government. But I'm never going to subscribe to this far-fetched idea that the northern state is some sort of nation or distinct entity with its own identity. It's an artificial gerrymandered constituency which was built on the basis of sectarian supremacism, to create a little homeland for the ruling class. My nationality is Irish, my passport is Irish, my name is Irish, and my identity is Irish. Every time I see this "Northern Irish" monicker it makes me bristle. There's no such thing.
* The counties in the north were abolished in the 1970s, but their identities live on in popular culture and are kept alive most notably by the GAA.
Where the heck are all the brits?
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
European - where is earthling?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
It's amazing, your nationality is defined by your passport - so what are 70% or Americans who don't have a passport!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Cold tea on June 21, 2011, 11:02:36 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
It's amazing, your nationality is defined by your passport - so what are 70% or Americans who don't have a passport!!!!!!!!
Ask someone who used that as a definition. The word "passport" doesn't appear anywhere in Myles's post.
But if you are caught in a situation abroad, it governs what nationality you are!!! Do we need lessons, or are you still happily appeasing your funny boss!!!
Quote from: 02 on June 21, 2011, 08:49:09 PM
I was thinking about this after reading the US Open thread and how some "young people" define their nationality as Northern Irish. I don't consider myself young but I am happy to identify myself as being Northern Irish. I have a healthy dislike of both British nationality (as manifested by Loyalist/Unionists in NI) and Irish nationality (as manifested by people in the ROI who left their fellow nationalists to suffer in NI and who totally sold out to consumer culture from the early 1990s).
What age are you and what is consumer culture?
lmao 02 I thought was his year of birth. :D
Who gives a fcuk what you are?
And why should you really care?
No one stops me from living the life I want to live (wife tries :D :D), go for the jobs I want or express the views I have.
If we continue to get hung up on this then it will only wear you down.
Consider myself Irish, born and raised in Belfast but all my grandparents are from the ROI. So an immigrant of sorts. Wouldn't say I'm northern Irish rather from the north of Ireland.
No religion from birth, but a nationalist/republican by choice.
Quote from: Dún Dún on June 21, 2011, 11:40:25 PM
Consider myself Irish, born and raised in Belfast but all my grandparents are from the ROI. So an immigrant of sorts. Wouldn't say I'm northern Irish rather from the north of Ireland.
No religion from birth, but a nationalist/republican by choice.
an immigrant? are you taking the piss?
Quote from: Dún Dún on June 21, 2011, 11:40:25 PM
Consider myself Irish, born and raised in Belfast but all my grandparents are from the ROI. So an immigrant of sorts. Wouldn't say I'm northern Irish rather from the north of Ireland.
No religion from birth, but a nationalist/republican by choice.
If you are of a certain age then all our grandparents were from Ireland?? (Any Grandparents born pre partition?)
Quote from: boojangles on June 21, 2011, 11:19:29 PM
What age are you and what is consumer culture?
31 and this extract by Fintan O'Toole neatly encapsulates what consumer culture in ROI meant:
The shame comes from knowing that, two years ago, an Irish rugby fan would have thought nothing of paying €85—even though this is over 50 per cent higher than the price of an equivalent ticket in Scotland. Spending was a badge of honour: it proved you were a hero of the boomtime economy. You belonged in one of the world's most enthusiastic (and, in retrospect, gullible) consumer cultures. It was an attitude that combined some of the worst and best of Irish culture. It was fed by an older wildness, generosity, and contempt for the mean and the tight-fisted. But that admirable spirit became distorted into an often demented consumerism. People paid through the nose for everything—and now, with the painful realisation that long-term prosperity was an illusion, comes a buyer's remorse. It is not just that people feel like fools for spending so much, but embarrassed for spending it so easily. Hence the reluctance to pay €85 for rugby, or, for that matter, €3 for a coffee.
Quote from: Cold tea on June 21, 2011, 11:13:22 PM
But if you are caught in a situation abroad, it governs what nationality you are!!! Do we need lessons, or are you still happily appeasing your funny boss!!!
Ah, I had to re-read the posts and see where you're coming from. I thought you were disagreeing with the idea that your nationality is defined by your passport, but you're making the point that it is. It was your reference to the yanks without one that threw me off.
As for "appease", have you left school yet? Because if you haven't, I can assure you that one of the things you're going to learn is that when your boss tells you to do something, it's generally a good idea to make sure you do it. Anything else can have you looking for another job before long.
If my boss tells me to do something that isn't within my terms and conditions of employment or I believe contravenes my rights in any way, I'd be tell him to take a reddner!! You would need to grow a set kid!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 21, 2011, 11:29:54 PM
Who gives a fcuk what you are?
And why should you really care?
No one stops me from living the life I want to live (wife tries :D :D), go for the jobs I want or express the views I have.
If we continue to get hung up on this then it will only wear you down.
Agree with most of that apart from the bit about your wife unless she is HR in our place!!!
As far as I'm concerned, the OP misses the point when he asks us to "Choose one" answer for his Poll, since I do not/cannot/will not allow myself to be "pigeon-holed" in that way.
That is, I am "Irish", by virtue of having been born and bred in Ireland, as is obvious the moment I open my mouth!
At the same time, I am "British" eg when I fill in a census, or renew my Passport.
And I am "European" whenever eg I find myself in Africa or Asia etc, or following the Ryder Cup.
Beyond that, I am an "Ulsterman" when the time comes to Stand Up at a rugby game, but a proud "Fermanaghman" whenever a foreigner asks me where is the best place to visit in Ireland. Hell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
And when I was young/skint/single, I was whichever of those which offered the best chance of getting a good time/free drink/laid!
How to explain those (apparent) contradictions? Simple: when it comes down to it, I'm "Northern Irish" - the only designation which allows me to be myself i.e. all of the above. Which is perhaps why probably the happiest I've ever been (with my clothes on, at least!) was when David Healy scored that goal at Windsor Park in 2005 (though maybe Gerry Armstrong edges it after Valencia, 1982?)
Over and above that, I can have no problem with any of my neighbours from NI/the Six Counties (delete as appropriate) choosing a different designation (or combination), so long as they do not try to deny me my choice, or force their own upon me.
P.S. If 'Eammonica1' should be reading, I'm not an "Orangeman", have never been one and have no intention of ever being one. ::)
P.P.S. I'm also an "Atheist", if that helps ;)
P.P.P.S. And a "Yiddo" on Saturday afternoons :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the OP misses the point when he asks us to "Choose one" answer for his Poll, since I do not/cannot/will not allow myself to be "pigeon-holed" in that way.
That is, I am "Irish", by virtue of having been born and bred in Ireland, as is obvious the moment I open my mouth!
At the same time, I am "British" eg when I fill in a census, or renew my Passport.
And I am "European" whenever eg I find myself in Africa or Asia etc, or following the Ryder Cup.
Beyond that, I am an "Ulsterman" when the time comes to Stand Up at a rugby game, but a proud "Fermanaghman" whenever a foreigner asks me where is the best place to visit in Ireland. Hell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
And when I was young/skint/single, I was whichever of those which offered the best chance of getting a good time/free drink/laid!
How to explain those (apparent) contradictions? Simple:
It is simple. Youse don't know your asses from your elbows.
Ask a crowd of our ones what they are and they'll all say they're Irish. As ten planters what they are and you'll get ten different answers, some of them as convoluted as the one you just gave concerning yourself.
Quote from: 02 on June 22, 2011, 12:04:30 AM
Quote from: boojangles on June 21, 2011, 11:19:29 PM
What age are you and what is consumer culture?
31 and this extract by Fintan O'Toole neatly encapsulates what consumer culture in ROI meant:
The shame comes from knowing that, two years ago, an Irish rugby fan would have thought nothing of paying €85—even though this is over 50 per cent higher than the price of an equivalent ticket in Scotland. Spending was a badge of honour: it proved you were a hero of the boomtime economy. You belonged in one of the world's most enthusiastic (and, in retrospect, gullible) consumer cultures. It was an attitude that combined some of the worst and best of Irish culture. It was fed by an older wildness, generosity, and contempt for the mean and the tight-fisted. But that admirable spirit became distorted into an often demented consumerism. People paid through the nose for everything—and now, with the painful realisation that long-term prosperity was an illusion, comes a buyer's remorse. It is not just that people feel like fools for spending so much, but embarrassed for spending it so easily. Hence the reluctance to pay €85 for rugby, or, for that matter, €3 for a coffee.
So you have a healthy dislike ??? of Irish Nationality because some people paid 85 euro for a rugby game ticket and because they left nationalists in the North to suffer? Have I got it right?
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the OP misses the point when he asks us to "Choose one" answer for his Poll, since I do not/cannot/will not allow myself to be "pigeon-holed" in that way.
That is, I am "Irish", by virtue of having been born and bred in Ireland, as is obvious the moment I open my mouth!
At the same time, I am "British" eg when I fill in a census, or renew my Passport.
And I am "European" whenever eg I find myself in Africa or Asia etc, or following the Ryder Cup.
Beyond that, I am an "Ulsterman" when the time comes to Stand Up at a rugby game, but a proud "Fermanaghman" whenever a foreigner asks me where is the best place to visit in Ireland. Hell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
And when I was young/skint/single, I was whichever of those which offered the best chance of getting a good time/free drink/laid!
How to explain those (apparent) contradictions? Simple: when it comes down to it, I'm "Northern Irish" - the only designation which allows me to be myself i.e. all of the above. Which is perhaps why probably the happiest I've ever been (with my clothes on, at least!) was when David Healy scored that goal at Windsor Park in 2005 (though maybe Gerry Armstrong edges it after Valencia, 1982?)
Over and above that, I can have no problem with any of my neighbours from NI/the Six Counties (delete as appropriate) choosing a different designation (or combination), so long as they do not try to deny me my choice, or force their own upon me.
P.S. If 'Eammonica1' should be reading, I'm not an "Orangeman", have never been one and have no intention of ever being one. ::)
P.P.S. I'm also an "Atheist", if that helps ;)
P.P.P.S. And a "Yiddo" on Saturday afternoons :D
WTF Are you parents English, were you born in England? Otherwise this is the only one I cannot get my head around.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 06:01:17 PM
It is simple. Youse don't know your asses from your elbows.
Ask a crowd of our ones what they are and they'll all say they're Irish. As ten planters what they are and you'll get ten different answers, some of them as convoluted as the one you just gave concerning yourself.
Our ones!!! Do you say it with an American accent?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the OP misses the point when he asks us to "Choose one" answer for his Poll, since I do not/cannot/will not allow myself to be "pigeon-holed" in that way.
That is, I am "Irish", by virtue of having been born and bred in Ireland, as is obvious the moment I open my mouth!
At the same time, I am "British" eg when I fill in a census, or renew my Passport.
And I am "European" whenever eg I find myself in Africa or Asia etc, or following the Ryder Cup.
Beyond that, I am an "Ulsterman" when the time comes to Stand Up at a rugby game, but a proud "Fermanaghman" whenever a foreigner asks me where is the best place to visit in Ireland. Hell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
And when I was young/skint/single, I was whichever of those which offered the best chance of getting a good time/free drink/laid!
How to explain those (apparent) contradictions? Simple:
It is simple. Youse don't know your asses from your elbows.
Ask a crowd of our ones what they are and they'll all say they're Irish. As ten planters what they are and you'll get ten different answers, some of them as convoluted as the one you just gave concerning yourself.
Firstly, not sure if I like what seems to be your derogatory use of the term "planter". Lest we forget, many non-planter "Gaels" were also blow-ins to these shores over the centuries. In addition, just because protestants / unionists are not homoegeneous / come from different religious denominations / possess the ability to use independent thought, is this necessarily a bad thing?
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 09:21:17 PM
Firstly, not sure if I like what seems to be your derogatory use of the term "planter". Lest we forget, many non-planter "Gaels" were also blow-ins to these shores over the centuries. In addition, just because protestants / unionists are not homoegeneous / come from different religious denominations / possess the ability to use independent thought, is this necessarily a bad thing?
Yes. If they'd drop their delusions of "otherness" from their fellow Irishmen then the political situation on the island would be a whole lot more stable, wouldn't you say?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 22, 2011, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
AHell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
WTF Are you parents English, were you born in England? Otherwise this is the only one I cannot get my head around.
See what I mean? "Ass and elbow" spring to mind.
Quote from: Cold tea on June 22, 2011, 08:28:38 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 06:01:17 PM
It is simple. Youse don't know your asses from your elbows.
Ask a crowd of our ones what they are and they'll all say they're Irish. As ten planters what they are and you'll get ten different answers, some of them as convoluted as the one you just gave concerning yourself.
Our ones!!! Do you say it with an American accent?
No. Why?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 09:28:20 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 09:21:17 PM
Firstly, not sure if I like what seems to be your derogatory use of the term "planter". Lest we forget, many non-planter "Gaels" were also blow-ins to these shores over the centuries. In addition, just because protestants / unionists are not homoegeneous / come from different religious denominations / possess the ability to use independent thought, is this necessarily a bad thing?
Yes. If they'd drop their delusions of "otherness" from their fellow Irishmen then the political situation on the island would be a whole lot more stable, wouldn't you say?
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"? Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish. However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"? Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish. However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.
So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish? Maybe my Irishness is impaired then since my grasp of the Irish language is below basic and I'm certainly no catholic.
I think they consider themselves different because of a revision of history that has taken place. When Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'? The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish. Nobody heard of a place called Northern Ireland until relatively recently, and this idea of a separate identity for the north has been retrospectively drummed up and regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity (http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/).
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers when you ask ten different planters what they are, and some of them as individuals can't even give you a single answer, as EG demonstrated so beautifully with his magnificent example of confusion.
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed. That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc. I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
When Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'? - In response, arguably this was before the Irish language had been politicised by Gerry and his cronies.
"The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish". - On what authority do you make this assertion? Interestingly, a recent biography on James Joyce has revealed that he refused to take up an Irish passport, remaining British until his death.
"... regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity" - Why then has there been 400 odd years of conflict / division / ill feeling?
"The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." - What about after the 1798 rebellion? Is it not the case that the "the planters" at this point moved away from a one nation / Irish viewpoint?
"And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" - As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
Oh dear Michaelg.
It is interesting that you feel you have more in common with the English that with your own brethern here in Ireland. Methinks you were brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms, and hence have an unnatural hatred for everything in your country.
How did the Shankill get its name? What does it mean? Do you prefer to call it by its english translation?
Quote from: Orior on June 22, 2011, 11:43:42 PM
Oh dear Michaelg.
It is interesting that you feel you have more in common with the English that with your own brethern here in Ireland. Methinks you were brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms, and hence have an unnatural hatred for everything in your country.
How did the Shankill get its name? What does it mean? Do you prefer to call it by its english translation?
Where have I said I have more in common with people from England? Also, on what basis do you assume I have been brought up on a diet of Paisleyisms? - I have said nothing inflammatory in anything that I have stated. Also, how can you say I have an "unnatural hatred for everything in your country". - I have simply stated that I do not feel included in what I feel is required to be considered as a "true Irishman".
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed. That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc. I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
Well then you're being very silly. Look at the following English sports have in Ireland, look at the amount of British TV consumed by Irish audiences, look at the sorry state of the Irish language. If those criteria really were applied then there wouldn't be very many "pure" irish people in existence, would there?
QuoteWhen Queen Victoria visited Belfast wasn't she greeted by big banners saying 'Erin go Bragh'? - In response, arguably this was before the Irish language had been politicised by Gerry and his cronies.
What's that got to do with the price of fish? Your attempt to change the subject into a name-calling match is noted. The point I made was that there was a time (yes, before "Gerry and the cronies" or "Gerry and the pacemakers" or whoever) when the Anglo Irish ascendency had no problem with the "Irish" monicker and didn't go into sectarian convulsions at the sound of the native language of the land they live on. (Incidentally, where do you stand on immigrants having to learn the local lingo?)
Quote"The Anglo Irish ruling class always considered themselves Irish". - On what authority do you make this assertion?
The authority of boys like Henry Grattan. "The world could not bribe him. He thought only of Ireland; lived for no other object; dedicated to her his beautiful fancy, his elegant wit, his manly courage, and all the splendour of his astonishing eloquence." These were key figures in the ascendancy and agitated for greater autonomy and powers for the Irish Parliament. When they failed to achieve it by constitutional means then rebellion followed in 1798.
QuoteInterestingly, a recent biography on James Joyce has revealed that he refused to take up an Irish passport, remaining British until his death.
One man had a British passport? Well that settles it then.
Quote"... regional characteristics have been exaggerated to the point of absurdity" - Why then has there been 400 odd years of conflict / division / ill feeling?
What's that got to do with the price of fish? 400 years of conflict/division/ill feeling were not confined to the north.
Quote"The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." - What about after the 1798 rebellion? Is it not the case that the "the planters" at this point moved away from a one nation / Irish viewpoint?
No, they moved towards it. They were pissed off at the raw deal that their Irish Parliament was getting, and the Presbyterians (who were excluded from it like the catholics) found common cause with the catholics. BTW, did you know that the Orange Order (aka the Grand Orange Lodge of
Ireland) originally opposed the Act of Union because it threatened their beloved Irish Parliament?
Quote"And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" - As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
Why do you say that as if I'm disagreeing with you? That does not contradict my point that as a community they are confused about what is the best way to express their hysterical denial of their own Irishness.
Quote from: boojangles on June 22, 2011, 06:42:56 PM
So you have a healthy dislike ??? of Irish Nationality because some people paid 85 euro for a rugby game ticket and because they left nationalists in the North to suffer? Have I got it right?
You are right, as always! Dislike was probably too strong a word and I was taking a stance to get debate going. I don't feel passionate about being Irish because I hold a lot of resentment about the general apathy shown towards the north of Ireland by the majority of people in the republic during a time when their support was vital.
The drive for materialism and greed that signified the "Celtic Tiger" was such an amazing phenomenon to observe, the Irish psyche of projecting an image of style over substance came to the fore in the most arrogant and self-obsessed way.
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"? Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish. However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.
Have you ever read any of the contributions from our guests from OWC (the website)? They absolutely consider themselves Irish.
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Why do you think protestants / unionists have, as you put it, "delusions of otherness"? Protestants / unionists are forever being told that they are Irish. However, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.
Have you ever read any of the contributions from our guests from OWC (the website)? They absolutely consider themselves Irish.
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here. I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here. I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.
They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you
Quote from: 02 on June 23, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Quote from: boojangles on June 22, 2011, 06:42:56 PM
So you have a healthy dislike ??? of Irish Nationality because some people paid 85 euro for a rugby game ticket and because they left nationalists in the North to suffer? Have I got it right?
You are right, as always! Dislike was probably too strong a word and I was taking a stance to get debate going. I don't feel passionate about being Irish because I hold a lot of resentment about the general apathy shown towards the north of Ireland by the majority of people in the republic during a time when their support was vital.
How exactly have you personally experienced this so-called general apathy from the majority of people in the republic? As a 31 year old what year or years did you feel the support of the republic was vital to you personally? What exactly would you have liked or expected from the majority of people from the republic when their support was vital? Mobilisation of a peoples army from the republic? invasion of the North? Civil War?
[/quote] The drive for materialism and greed that signified the "Celtic Tiger" was such an amazing phenomenon to observe, the Irish psyche of projecting an image of style over substance came to the fore in the most arrogant and self-obsessed way. [/quote]
What part of the republic did you live in where you observed this so-called 'amazing phenomenon' ?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here. I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.
They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away. Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too. However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 11:37:25 AM
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away. Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too. However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.
Okay. So how does that fit in with
QuoteHowever, as non catholics who do not speak Irish, do not hold Irish passports and do not follow GAA, it is hardly surprising that Protestants / unionists do not consider themselves to be Irish if they do not meet the generally accepted required criteria.
?
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 11:37:25 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
Not sure if you are trying to take the piss here. I can say with some confidence that the vast majority of OWC posters and Northern Ireland football fans in general wouldconsider themselves primarily to be Northern Irish.
They consider themselves to be British, Irish, Northern Irish and Ulstermen/women, all at the same time without one compromising the other. I'm open to correction on that. But by them, not you
I am a regular OWC poster / viewer and attend most NI games home and away. Whilst people like me would primarily identify themselves as Northern Irish, that is not to say that I am not happy to also be considered British / Irish / an Ulsterman too. However, most would probably see themselves as Northern Irish first.
isnt that a bit like considering yourself a 'jedi' ?
ie a nice but fanciful notion !!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 23, 2011, 11:41:24 AM
isnt that a bit like considering yourself a 'jedi' ?
ie a nice but fanciful notion !!
I don't think it's fanciful. It's been in existence for 90 years, I can see how people might become attached to it.
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Quote from: boojangles on June 23, 2011, 11:19:47 AM
How exactly have you personally experienced this so-called general apathy from the majority of people in the republic? As a 31 year old what year or years did you feel the support of the republic was vital to you personally? What exactly would you have liked or expected from the majority of people from the republic when their support was vital? Mobilisation of a peoples army from the republic? invasion of the North? Civil War?
Ireland routinely takes an active part in UN peacekeeping forces, when their fellow Irish men and women were being killed they didn't even lobby to intervene to protect those people.
Quote from: boojangles on June 23, 2011, 11:19:47 AM
What part of the republic did you live in where you observed this so-called 'amazing phenomenon'?
I didn't have to live there to observe that people in general in the late 80s were driving around in modest cars and were building modest houses - whereas by the 00s this situation had changed dramatically, clearly living beyond their means on borrowed money just to keep up the Jones'. NI was not immune from this crazy capitalism and people there too bought into it, but it was more pronounced in the ROI.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 22, 2011, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 12:04:00 PM
Hell, I'm even an "Englishman" whenever the Ashes are being played (though "Irish" once more when beating England in the Cricket World Cup!)
WTF Are you parents English, were you born in England? Otherwise this is the only one I cannot get my head around.
You might have enlarged and emboldened the complete sentence, i.e. I support England in Test Cricket, and considering I have lived in England for years, I have no problem in considering myself "English" when the Test team is playing Australia or India or whoever.
But if you still can't get your head around that, perhaps you might ask eg Eoin Morgan or Ed Joyce for further explanation... :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 12:20:56 PM
You might have enlarged and emboldened the complete sentence, i.e. I support England in Test Cricket, and considering I have lived in England for years, I have no problem in considering myself "English" when the Test team is playing Australia or India or whoever.
But if you still can't get your head around that, perhaps you might ask eg Eoin Morgan or Ed Joyce for further explanation... :D
I support England in Test cricket. I still don't feel English even in those moments, any more than I feel English when I support Liverpool
This wee thread is turning into a cracking little debate.
I personally classify myself as a proud Irishman from Fermanagh. My opinion is that the Brits have no place as a ruling body on this island, although stating that, the state of the Northern Irish economy is alot better than that in the Republic and I would not be too happy with those in power down south taking up the reins and the cost of living is clear seen with a bar of chocolate costing 60p in Enniskillen and 20 miles away its about 20-30% more expensive in euro...
Quote from: sammymaguire on June 23, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
This wee thread is turning into a cracking little debate.
I personally classify myself as a proud Irishman from Fermanagh. My opinion is that the Brits have no place as a ruling body on this island, although stating that, the state of the Northern Irish economy is alot better than that in the Republic and I would not be too happy with those in power down south taking up the reins and the cost of living is clear seen with a bar of chocolate costing 60p in Enniskillen and 20 miles away its about 20-30% more expensive in euro...
You hate the Crown but love the half-crown ;)
I feel sorry for England and poor muintir Shasana.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 09:28:20 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 09:21:17 PM
Firstly, not sure if I like what seems to be your derogatory use of the term "planter". Lest we forget, many non-planter "Gaels" were also blow-ins to these shores over the centuries. In addition, just because protestants / unionists are not homoegeneous / come from different religious denominations / possess the ability to use independent thought, is this necessarily a bad thing?
Yes. If they'd drop their delusions of "otherness" from their fellow Irishmen then the political situation on the island would be a whole lot more stable, wouldn't you say?
Says a devotee of the
Gaelic Athletic Association.
Or have you never wondered why it wasn't called the "Irish Athletic Association"?
In other words, separation or alienation work both ways. Or as Gerry Adams once pronounced at a SF Ard Fheis:
"Unionists are an Irish national minority, a religio/political minority, with minority rights not majority ones."I have absolutely no problem in proclaiming my Irishness, but neither will I accept that the only true form of Irishness is the one prescribed by scumbags like Adams - even if he does have a Planter name :o
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 11:52:00 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 23, 2011, 11:41:24 AM
isnt that a bit like considering yourself a 'jedi' ?
ie a nice but fanciful notion !!
I don't think it's fanciful. It's been in existence for 90 years, I can see how people might become attached to it.
fanciful as in it isn't a 'country' !!
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PMThat's why you get ten different answers when you ask ten different planters what they are, and some of them as individuals can't even give you a single answer, as EG demonstrated so beautifully with his magnificent example of confusion.
There you go again.
I may originally be of direct Planter stock on one side of my family, but that doesn't make
me a "Planter" any more than someone with eg the surname "Hume" or "Adams", nor does it give you the right to define me as such.
For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county), I am so much more than one, simplistic designation.
Nor do you have any case for claiming that I am "confused". Identity and Nationality are often complex issues and I like to think I have both the self-awareness and the self-confidence to find my own place within that complexity.
Whereas by contrast, I often find that those who cling most determinedly to a fixed and unyielding position, which brooks no challenge, subtlety or nuance, are actually concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity, such that they
dare not admit that these things are never "black and white".
These threads are a laugh. The only thing that can bring the 32 counties together on this board seems to be golf.
I am hitting the drives 30 yards to the left but was raised a Presbyterian in Wicklow. What should I do?
Interesting piece by Brian Feeney in yesterday's Irish News on the United Ireland poll. I would consider myself as a proud Irishman first and foremost and a proud Ulsterman secondly and given Sunday's result a not so proud Armaghman.
Quote from: seafoid on June 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
These threads are a laugh. The only thing that can bring the 32 counties together on this board seems to be golf.
I am hitting the drives 30 yards to the left but was raised a Presbyterian in Wicklow. What should I do?
Become a Catholic and move to County Down. :D
Quote from: seafoid on June 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
These threads are a laugh. The only thing that can bring the 32 counties together on this board seems to be golf.
I am hitting the drives 30 yards to the left but was raised a Presbyterian in Wicklow. What should I do?
Get the f**k out of Wicklow!!
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United
Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.
I am not such a person, even if you may be.
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 12:20:56 PM
You might have enlarged and emboldened the complete sentence, i.e. I support England in Test Cricket, and considering I have lived in England for years, I have no problem in considering myself "English" when the Test team is playing Australia or India or whoever.
But if you still can't get your head around that, perhaps you might ask eg Eoin Morgan or Ed Joyce for further explanation... :D
I support England in Test cricket. I still don't feel English even in those moments, any more than I feel English when I support Liverpool
Then how do you explain Eoin Morgan or Ed Joyce playing for England, then. Of course, it might purely be for the money and career etc, but that doesn't apply to this Irishman when he supports England.
Tbh, I was being somewhat "tongue-in-cheek" when I posted it, but it really doesn't bother me in the slightest - it's only a feckin' game, after all.
Quote from: sammymaguire on June 23, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
This wee thread is turning into a cracking little debate.
I personally classify myself as a proud Irishman from Fermanagh. My opinion is that the Brits have no place as a ruling body on this island
And what do you mean by "Brit"?
For I, too, am a "proud Irishman from Fermanagh".
But I am also a "Brit".
Do I get a say in the running of the place or not?
Quote from: seafoid on June 23, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
These threads are a laugh. The only thing that can bring the 32 counties together on this board seems to be golf.
I am hitting the drives 30 yards to the left but was raised a Presbyterian in Wicklow. What should I do?
Seeing as you're a right footer, have you considered
kicking it? ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.
I am not such a person, even if you may be.
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.
Re-read what you have just posted.
Note the word "Great".
When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".
As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.
I am not such a person, even if you may be.
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
Aye, you've heard it. It's a shame you seem incapable of understanding it, though.
Still, that's your problem, not mine.
Northern Irish, Ulster, Irish and British.
Is it an identity stew, one identity with multiple shades?
Or is each identity in a separate compartment? with a top drawer priority identity, right down to lower drawer identity?
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.
Re-read what you have just posted.
Note the word "Great".
When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".
As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....
We are indeed entitled to call ourselves what we are, but the term British or GB invariably refers to the other Island. I would seriously doubt many Scots or Welsh would call themselves British in the first instance.
I think the Scots are very watery on the question of independence and that a good proportion would call themselves British. At least the ones I know would often say "British" if they were asked when abroad.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
Where does Lindisfarne fit into this definition of the island of Great Britain?
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.
I am not such a person, even if you may be.
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
Aye, you've heard it. It's a shame you seem incapable of understanding it, though.
Still, that's your problem, not mine.
OK but leaving the arrogant and condescending attitude at the door, have you anything constructive to say in regards my post?
Quote from: AQMP on June 23, 2011, 02:15:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on June 23, 2011, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
Where does Lindisfarne fit into this definition of the island of Great Britain?
They were Geordies weren't they?? Fog on the Tyne is all mine, all mine...
Indeed they were. One of the funniest things I ever heard was Mark Radcliffe commenting on their collaboration with Paul Gascoigne on a remake of Fog on the Tyne: "most footballers adopt the Rex Harrison mode of speaking the words when singing. Some of them, however, can't even speak in tune . . ."
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed. That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc. I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
Wow. I dont know what to say. Other than thats the biggest load of rubbish I have read in some time.
Quote from: Galwaybhoy on June 23, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed. That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc. I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
Wow. I dont know what to say. Other than thats the biggest load of rubbish I have read in some time.
[/quote
Why do you think then that so many Ulster protestants do not accept / feel comfortable being called Irish?
Boojangles, I would agree with almost all of this post. I think there are common misconceptions on all sides nationalist/unionist/north/south in relation to each other. I have never found the majority of peolpe in the South to be apathetic to the North. We may not have been their main priority at times but that is understandable. Northern Nationalists have always looked to the South more than Southern Nationalists did nortwards but that was because of the situation we were in. The reality was that the Government in the South did what it could to help whilst trying to engage the British Government, which it successfully did. To have invaded or openly sent arms would have been seen by the Brotish as an act of war, a war the Irish Government could not win let alone afford. We in the North can say that people in the South have been living beyond their means as we have been doing it since partition at the expense of the Great British tax payer. People in the South did what most of us would have done had we started to earn more money...They spent it. The people who destroyed the economy in the a small minority, many of them from the North who borrowed heaviliy to fuel over heating in the property market.
Quote from: michaelg on June 23, 2011, 03:51:00 PM
Quote from: Galwaybhoy on June 23, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
"So you have to be a catholic, speak Irish, and follow GAA to be considered Irish?" - In my opinion, you are not really considered as much of a "true Irishman" if you do not meet the broad citeria that I originally listed. That is, you are not meant to feel wholly included if you are not catholic, follow GAA etc. I am not saying this to wind you up, it is simply how I and, I'm failry sure, others like me feel.
Wow. I dont know what to say. Other than thats the biggest load of rubbish I have read in some time.
Why do you think then that so many Ulster protestants do not accept / feel comfortable being called Irish?
I'm sorry I read that while I was working, I misread it as I thought it was your opinion you didn't consider someone to be Irish unless they met the criteria that you stated above. My apologies.
Thanks Boojangles and Applesisapples for informative posts, I am happy to acknowledge that I was overgeneralising. However I am stating my own perceptions which of course could be wrong. I suppose that like everything on this island things are always more complex than can be easily articulated on a message board. I suppose the betrayal goes back to the fall out from the Irish civil war and how there is still (for me) bitterness about how Irish people in the north had to endure being cut off from the type of nation which they longed to be part of.
Captialism along with the decline of religion (not a bad thing) means that there is very little difference to strive for an overhaul of the status quo. This is controversial but I think Sinn Fein are part of the British establishment and have been since their organisation was infiltrated by British intelligence operatives. With that in mind I do not see an end to Northern Ireland any time soon, so better just to live with it.
Fatalism.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county),
Had your grandparents not moved you might be defending Republican values on the OWC website right now.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
The fact that they never bothered to try and develop a description to include the so called other island of the union, shows how little they cared for their colony to the west, just a place to rape for resources and offload troublesome fanatics.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.
Re-read what you have just posted.
Note the word "Great".
When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".
As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....
Great has othing to do with differentiating UK citizens/subjects from the U.K. from those from the other major island to our east. Great Britain and Britain are the same place. In fact Great only exists to differentiate from the other Britain (not Ireland) which is Brittany.
QuoteWhereas by contrast, I often find that those who cling most determinedly to a fixed and unyielding position, which brooks no challenge, subtlety or nuance, are actually concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity, such that they dare not admit that these things are never "black and white".
So people who can answer the question of what they are without sounding confused are "concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity"? HAHAHAHA!! That's a good one!
QuoteI support England in Test Cricket, and considering I have lived in England for years, I have no problem in considering myself "English" when the Test team is playing Australia or India or whoever.
I spent a fortnight in Mallorca once. Doesn't make me Spanish.
QuoteFor I, too, am a "proud Irishman from Fermanagh".
But I am also a "Brit".
"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
You have to hand it to him though, don't you? An inability to make your mind up about what you are is actually a sign of confidence, whereas a lack of confusion is actually a sign of some deep-seated psychological problems where you're actually hiding something. That's the best bit of sophistry I've seen in a while.
For his next trick EG is going to prove that the north pole is actually the south pole and vice versa.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:46:46 PMWe are indeed entitled to call ourselves what we are, but the term British or GB invariably refers to the other Island.
"Often", "usually" or even "mostly", but "invariably"?
Nonsense.
For example, when I fly back into Heathrow from abroad, I line up in the queue saying "British Passport Holders" (along with my fellow Brits from Eng, Scot and Wales).
The sign does not say: "British and Northern Irish Passport Holders".
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:46:46 PMI would seriously doubt many Scots or Welsh would call themselves British in the first instance.
How does it affect the issue whether it be 90% or 9% etc - the principle remains.
And as for your qualification "... in the first instance", that is a poor attempt at wriggling further away from the point. For it doesn't matter whether someone from Eng, Scot, Wales or NI designates himself as primarily "British"; or "English/Scottish/Welsh/Norn Iron" first and "British" second etc, they are all British and equally so, should they choose.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 02:06:06 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: michaelg on June 22, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
The planters became Irish long ago, they've just decided to back-pedal after this partition business and say "well actually we were Ulstermen/Northern Irish/British/Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish all along, you know." And one of the surest signs that someone is telling a lie is their inability to keep their story straight, as you can see from the multitude of replies you get from them when asked the simple question "what are you?" That's why you get ten different answers...
As I previously stated, the "multitude of replies" stems from the fact that Ulster protestants / unionsists are not a homogeneous group of people.
"Homogeneous" :D
Unable to understand what you are or whether you live in a "country", a "nation", a "state", a "province", a "region" etc etc... and feeling like you are Irish, but also British, but also northern Irish but also an Ulsterman, and "even an Englishman" (to quote EG) does not to me seem like the identity of a simply non-homogeneous group of people, but rather a group of people with an identity crisis.
Acknowledging that matters of identity are invariably complex does not present a "crisis" for anyone, unless he/she is so insecure that he/she is desperate for simplicity and certainty.
I am not such a person, even if you may be.
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
Aye, you've heard it. It's a shame you seem incapable of understanding it, though.
Still, that's your problem, not mine.
OK but leaving the arrogant and condescending attitude at the door, have you anything constructive to say in regards my post?
Tbh, there isn't anything "constructive" I can say.
I have explained why the question of my identity is complex, rather than simplistic. You do not accept that that is so, frankly I don't care.
And as for this causing some sort of "crisis" for me, all I can say is that I am entirely happy with my identity. Once more, I couldn't care less if you don't believe me.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 23, 2011, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county),
Had your grandparents not moved you might be defending Republican values on the OWC website right now.
Doubt it - they weren't Republicans when they were in Tipp or Leitrim, either.
Which is one of the reasons why, having met in the North due to their work circumstances, they stayed up there after Partition.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 23, 2011, 05:05:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
The fact that they never bothered to try and develop a description to include the so called other island of the union, shows how little they cared for their colony to the west, just a place to rape for resources and offload troublesome fanatics.
It wasn't that they "never bothered", rather it simply wasn't
necessary.
Though they did incorporate St. Patrick's Cross in the Union Flag, along with the Cross of St. George and the Scottish Saltire. Dunno what happened the Welsh, mind :D
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 23, 2011, 05:11:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 10:46:27 PM
My wife and I are both Belfast born. My nationality is Irish, not Northern Irish. My wife's nationality is British, not Northern Irish. Politically it's the one thing we agree on, that there's no such thing as 'Northern Irish' when it comes to nationality. That's a different thing from saying that there's no such place, or that it has no right to exist.
I don't think your wife is British, unless born on the bigger island, she would however be a UK Citizen. She would be ethnically British if her family originated from the bigger island.
Good grief! How many times does it have to be pointed out that the term "United Kingdomish" is not used; the adjective deriving from the United Kingdom is "British" i.e. any person born in any part of the UK is British.
I mean, it's hardly as if it's the only idiosyncracy in the language; for example, we still refer to the United Kingdom even when the Sovereign is female...
Bullshit your passport is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therfore you are either British or Northern Irish depending on where you were born and the ethnicity of your parents.
Re-read what you have just posted.
Note the word "Great".
When asked their Nationality, English, Scots or Welsh do not routinely refer to themselves as "Great British", do they?
It's the same as if a Geographer asked someone living in Shetland, Anglesey, the Isle of Man, or even the Isle of Wight whether they came from "Great Britain" - their answer would have to be "No".
But if he were to ask them if they were "British" (nationality), they are perfectly entitled to answer "Yes".
As, indeed, would people from Northern Ireland....
Great has othing to do with differentiating UK citizens/subjects from the U.K. from those from the other major island to our east. Great Britain and Britain are the same place. In fact Great only exists to differentiate from the other Britain (not Ireland) which is Brittany.
It all depends on context eg Geography, History, Law, Politics or Idiom. One of the reasons why English (not "British", btw!) was so successful in becoming the 'world language' is down to its flexibility.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:23:49 PMDunno what happened the Welsh, mind
Wales was annexed rather than being unified on equal terms with England like Scotland was. Hence laws passed in Westminster apply to "England and Wales" as a single block.
Britain is an island (ergo, the English, Welsh and Scots can correctly say that they're British since, erm... they come from Britain), and Ireland is an island; EG is one of this magical troop that can be from two islands at once, WHOA!* :D
* Being British in respect of Ireland is a status, not a statement of origin/nationality, just like those in the 26 counties were British before 1922 (a status can be rescinded but a nationality can never be). I respect those of our (Irish) unionist brethren, however, who wish to maintain their British status, that's their choice.
Also, EG, quite apart from its flexibility, the English language has to a large extent been the language of imperialism--the sun never setting on the British empire, and all that.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:12:55 PM
I am entirely happy with my identity.
You still don't get it, do you? Leave aside the fact that you as an individual gave about half a dozen different answers to the simple question of what you are. Let's assume you were able to give a straight answer, then you as an individual might be happy with or not confused about your identity. But your community is not. Want me to repeat that? Your community as a whole hasn't a clue what they're supposed to be. Youse are a million people, each giving a different answer to the question of what youse are and each individually claiming to be not confused. Collectively, you're confused. And in some cases (such as yourself) you are confused as individuals despite your claims that you are not.
Let me recall a lunchtime conversation at a place I used to work at in Lurgan. There was only three fenians in an office of about a dozen people. Someone made a remark about something that was going on "around the country." What followed was a frenzy of confused questioning about what he meant by that simple remark.
"Where, you mean in the countryside?"
"Do you mean all over Ireland?"
"Oh, you mean the province?"
"Was this on the mainland too?" (That was from a fella from Lisburn who was once overheard on the phone describing himself as an "English type" person.)
We fenians sat back and kept straight faces while they tried to work through their identity crisis. Bless their hearts.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
QuoteWhereas by contrast, I often find that those who cling most determinedly to a fixed and unyielding position, which brooks no challenge, subtlety or nuance, are actually concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity, such that they dare not admit that these things are never "black and white".
So people who can answer the question of what they are without sounding confused are "concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity"? HAHAHAHA!! That's a good one!
"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"
I know exactly who and what I am. If you do not understand my explanation, then
you are the one who is "confused", not me.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
QuoteFor I, too, am a "proud Irishman from Fermanagh".
But I am also a "Brit".
"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"
If you are claiming that as a Fermanaghman, I cannot be both British and Irish, then how do you explain the Good Friday Agreement, whose Participants:
"... recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both,
as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments"http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Or are you "confused" by that, too? :D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:29:38 PM
Being British in respect of Ireland is a status, not a statement of origin/nationality, just like those in the 26 counties were British before 1922 (a status can be rescinded but a nationality can never be). I respect those of our (Irish) unionist brethren, however, who wish to maintain their British status, that's their choice.
Exactly. There's no such thing as a British nationality, it's a citizenship. The UK is a union of countries, not a single country. It may be a single sovereign state, but the identity of the individual countries therein has never gone away. Part of one of the countries may have left, but it is still a country albeit straddling two jurisdictions.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
QuoteWhereas by contrast, I often find that those who cling most determinedly to a fixed and unyielding position, which brooks no challenge, subtlety or nuance, are actually concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity, such that they dare not admit that these things are never "black and white".
So people who can answer the question of what they are without sounding confused are "concealing a deeper obtuseness and insecurity"? HAHAHAHA!! That's a good one!
"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"
I know exactly who and what I am. If you do not understand my explanation, then you are the one who is "confused", not me.
Confuuuuuuuuuuused!!!!!!!
Quote
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
QuoteFor I, too, am a "proud Irishman from Fermanagh".
But I am also a "Brit".
"But I'm not confused. Honest, guv!"
If you are claiming that as a Fermanaghman, I cannot be both British and Irish, then how do you explain the Good Friday Agreement, whose Participants:
"... recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both,
as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Or are you "confused" by that, too? :D
Nowhere in the GFA does it say anything about having the right to call yourself "Northern Irish / Ulsterish / Scotch-Irish / Ulster-Scot / Norish*".
* Wanna hear a funny story? I once saw a letter in the Belfast Telegraph from yet another confused planter who had the bright idea of concocting a new identity for the self-styled "British state" in the north of our country. It went along the lines of "Let's call ourselves 'Norish' and take our place among the nations of the world." That's no joke! ;D
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
So what can only be described as the constant indecision from the Unionist population as to whether they live in a country, or state, or region, or ('the') province, or nation, is actually just a sign of confidence and of the maturity to not look have to look for certainty? I've heard it all now.
Sorry, but to me it is a sign of identity crisis.
You have to hand it to him though, don't you? An inability to make your mind up about what you are is actually a sign of confidence, whereas a lack of confusion is actually a sign of some deep-seated psychological problems where you're actually hiding something. That's the best bit of sophistry I've seen in a while.
Claiming that I am "unable to make my mind up" is like saying a Rainbow* cannot decide what colour it is.
* - A rainbow is made up of a number of colours, if that helps...
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 06:03:40 PMFor his next trick EG is going to prove that the north pole is actually the south pole and vice versa.
If I were to try to do that, I would be wrong, not "confused".
You are confusing the two concepts.
Which is why you continue to get it wrong... :D
This land is your land,
This land is my land,
From Clonalilty
To Magee Island
This land was gerrymandered for you and me.
And whether in Kilkeel
Or Tory Island
In Ballygawley
Or Rathfriland
No crisis of I-dentity
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:29:38 PM
Britain is an island (ergo, the English, Welsh and Scots can correctly say that they're British since, erm... they come from Britain), and Ireland is an island; EG is one of this magical troop that can be from two islands at once, WHOA!* :D
You are conflating the Geographical (location) with the Political (status).
I don't know whether you do so because you are incapable of understanding the difference, or you do understand it, but in some way hope to undermine my British birthright.
Either way I couldn't care less - I know I'm British and I've got my Passport and my Vote (and the Good Friday Agreement!) to prove it. 8)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:54:47 PM
Either way I couldn't care less - I know I'm British and I've got my Passport and my Vote to prove it. 8)
Just like your confreres in the 26 counties,
before 1922! :P
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 23, 2011, 06:32:49 PM
Also, EG, quite apart from its flexibility, the English language has to a large extent been the language of imperialism--the sun never setting on the British empire, and all that.
As I said, its flexibility is only one of the reasons. Of course, the Empire is another, but it is hardly coincidental that English is usually also the second language in countries which were never part of the Empire.
Still what did the Romans ever do for us, eh? ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:29:38 PM
Britain is an island (ergo, the English, Welsh and Scots can correctly say that they're British since, erm... they come from Britain), and Ireland is an island; EG is one of this magical troop that can be from two islands at once, WHOA!* :D
* Being British in respect of Ireland is a status, not a statement of origin/nationality, just like those in the 26 counties were British before 1922 (a status can be rescinded but a nationality can never be). I respect those of our (Irish) unionist brethren, however, who wish to maintain their British status, that's their choice.
That's an interesting take on it that I haven't heard before. But if that is the case how come my passport doesn't mention my "status" but it DOES mention my "nationality"?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 06:37:13 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:12:55 PM
I am entirely happy with my identity.
You still don't get it, do you? Leave aside the fact that you as an individual gave about half a dozen different answers to the simple question of what you are. Let's assume you were able to give a straight answer, then you as an individual might be happy with or not confused about your identity. But your community is not. Want me to repeat that? Your community as a whole hasn't a clue what they're supposed to be. Youse are a million people, each giving a different answer to the question of what youse are and each individually claiming to be not confused. Collectively, you're confused. And in some cases (such as yourself) you are confused as individuals despite your claims that you are not.
Oh ffs! It's not a maths question, where there is only one prescribed answer!
Just because different people give different answers when questioned about their identity, doesn't mean they're confused, it simply means they disagree - if only in terms of emphasis or priority.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 06:37:13 PMLet me recall a lunchtime conversation at a place I used to work at in Lurgan. There was only three fenians in an office of about a dozen people. Someone made a remark about something that was going on "around the country." What followed was a frenzy of confused questioning about what he meant by that simple remark.
"Where, you mean in the countryside?"
"Do you mean all over Ireland?"
"Oh, you mean the province?"
"Was this on the mainland too?" (That was from a fella from Lisburn who was once overheard on the phone describing himself as an "English type" person.)
We fenians sat back and kept straight faces while they tried to work through their identity crisis. Bless their hearts.
Hilarious. You must be a real wow at parties... :D
I am Irish, I dont use the term Northern Ireland and I have no affinity to Britain at all at all.
What McIlroy stands for is up to him but he is damned if he does and damned if he doesnt, on the island of Ireland you are always going to pish somebody off and I for one dont give a shite what he considers himself.
Fair play to McIlroy and heres hoping the brits feck off and we can get our country back after centuries of foreign rule.
I suppose, EG, what the Romans did was not invade.
Dies Noster Veniet -- I'm sure Gerry would butcher the language as I've undoubtedly done.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:58:30 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:54:47 PM
Either way I couldn't care less - I know I'm British and I've got my Passport and my Vote to prove it. 8)
Just like your confreres in the 26 counties, before 1922! :P
Indeed.
Still, that merely emphasises one of the great things about coming from Northern Ireland: if you identify yourself as "British", you get to vote in British Elections, whereas if you identify yourself as "Irish", you get to vote in, no wait, I need to check something...
:D
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
Oh ffs! It's not a maths question, where there is only one prescribed answer!
Just because different people give different answers when questioned about their identity, doesn't mean they're confused, it simply means they disagree - if only in terms of emphasis or priority.
Quite.
What's it like being so confused?
Quote
Hilarious. You must be a real wow at parties... :D
I'm a man of many talents. You have no idea!
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 23, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
I suppose, EG, what the Romans did was not invade.
Perhaps that's because they never got an Invitation?
Still, good old Dermot McMorrough - I know he gets a Bad Press these days, but we should all really be grateful to him ;)
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 23, 2011, 07:15:27 PMDies Noster Veniet -- I'm sure Gerry would butcher the language as I've undoubtedly done.
Take one hundred lines, or I'll cut your balls off!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 07:32:14 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 23, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
I suppose, EG, what the Romans did was not invade.
Perhaps that's because they never got an Invitation?
Still, good old Dermot McMorrough - I know he gets a Bad Press these days, but we should all really be grateful to him ;)
Well yes, the Brit invaders/occupiers were invited...invited to leave Ireland. Repeatedly. Plain bad mannered to refuse if you ask me.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:40:11 PM
Well yes, the Brit invaders/occupiers were invited...invited to leave Ireland. Repeatedly. Plain bad mannered to refuse if you ask me.
They were never house trained, those planters.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:18:12 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 23, 2011, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
For with eg grandparents on the other side born and reared in Tipperary and Leitrim (neither a Plantation county),
Had your grandparents not moved you might be defending Republican values on the OWC website right now.
Doubt it - they weren't Republicans when they were in Tipp or Leitrim, either.
Which is one of the reasons why, having met in the North due to their work circumstances, they stayed up there after Partition.
Well any person from the Republic that I happen to know their religion and who is of the Reformed religious heritage they all appear quite Republican. Republicanism seems the rational answer and thankfully our planters in the Republic have managed to evolve ;)
Python bit is hilarious stuff, EG.
The Bruces were invited by those lads up in Ulster, but us Connacht lads sent them packing. To be honest we should had waited until they had kicked the English out first, ha ha.
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:03:54 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:29:38 PM
Britain is an island (ergo, the English, Welsh and Scots can correctly say that they're British since, erm... they come from Britain), and Ireland is an island; EG is one of this magical troop that can be from two islands at once, WHOA!* :D
* Being British in respect of Ireland is a status, not a statement of origin/nationality, just like those in the 26 counties were British before 1922 (a status can be rescinded but a nationality can never be). I respect those of our (Irish) unionist brethren, however, who wish to maintain their British status, that's their choice.
That's an interesting take on it that I haven't heard before. But if that is the case how come my passport doesn't mention my "status" but it DOES mention my "nationality"?
Well, if you don't know what those British and their land grabbing are like by now, not to mention mixing nationality and status up (accidentally on purpose)... ;)
Nationality cannot be rescinded, as happened to the 'British' in pre-1922 Ireland, and it didn't mention 'status' on their passports either.
EG: the board's very own Vicky Pollard... Yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish), but yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish), but yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish)...
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 08:57:42 PM
EG: the board's very own Vicky Pollard... Yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish), but yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish), but yeah (Irish), but no (not Irish)...
:D
The planters probably all died in the 17th Century.
I'm a native and anybody who's not a xenophobic/ racist idiot would treat me as such.
But for the Irish fascists on the board who believe in one pure race of Irishmen and women, go along on your merry way if it makes you feel better.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 08:57:42 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:03:54 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 06:29:38 PM
Britain is an island (ergo, the English, Welsh and Scots can correctly say that they're British since, erm... they come from Britain), and Ireland is an island; EG is one of this magical troop that can be from two islands at once, WHOA!* :D
* Being British in respect of Ireland is a status, not a statement of origin/nationality, just like those in the 26 counties were British before 1922 (a status can be rescinded but a nationality can never be). I respect those of our (Irish) unionist brethren, however, who wish to maintain their British status, that's their choice.
That's an interesting take on it that I haven't heard before. But if that is the case how come my passport doesn't mention my "status" but it DOES mention my "nationality"?
Well, if you don't know what those British and their land grabbing are like by now, not to mention mixing nationality and status up (accidentally on purpose)... ;)
Nationality cannot be rescinded, as happened to the 'British' in pre-1922 Ireland, and it didn't mention 'status' on their passports either.
I don;t think you can use a 90-year-old example to back up what you said.
Is the right of everyone in NI to call themselves "British" in a united Ireland not guaranteed by the GFA just as Irish nationality is in the status quo?
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
I don;t think you can use a 90-year-old example to back up what you said.
Is the right of everyone in NI to call themselves "British" in a united Ireland not guaranteed by the GFA just as Irish nationality is in the status quo?
If a majority vote for British withdrawal, your 'Britishness' will go with it -- that means that it (your Britishness) cannot be immutable (however unlikely such an event might be in the present, it's still a possibility, however remote) -- it would be impossible for such an eventuality to come to pass in Britain itself, i.e., the Welsh or Scottish can never have their Britishness terminated. The 90 years is somewhat irrelevant.
You can call yourself whatever you like, IMHO, and to my mind you're as validly Irish as anyone else (there cannot be any prerequisites, except being
of the Sod): Pre-Celt = Celt = Gael = Saxon Invader = Planter = Post-Planter = 100% Irish.
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Quote from: Lazer on June 24, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Line one correct - it also applies to me.
After that, you are in dizzy denial land.
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be in the UK as so do the majority of people I know (catholic & protestant). I am not British but a lot of my neighbours prefer to consider themselves as such. In many cases their attachment to the Irish identity has been eroded by IRA sectarian atrocities inflicted on friendnds and famiy and by so called epublicans who in reality are violent nationalists (nazi for short).
I am Irish, I live in the UK. I am not British - the legal framework allows me to be this way and no amount of misty-eyed wishful thinking or indeed nazi bullying will change this.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:46:46 PMWe are indeed entitled to call ourselves what we are, but the term British or GB invariably refers to the other Island.
"Often", "usually" or even "mostly", but "invariably"?
Nonsense.
For example, when I fly back into Heathrow from abroad, I line up in the queue saying "British Passport Holders" (along with my fellow Brits from Eng, Scot and Wales).
The sign does not say: "British and Northern Irish Passport Holders".
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 23, 2011, 01:46:46 PMI would seriously doubt many Scots or Welsh would call themselves British in the first instance.
How does it affect the issue whether it be 90% or 9% etc - the principle remains.
And as for your qualification "... in the first instance", that is a poor attempt at wriggling further away from the point. For it doesn't matter whether someone from Eng, Scot, Wales or NI designates himself as primarily "British"; or "English/Scottish/Welsh/Norn Iron" first and "British" second etc, they are all British and equally so, should they choose.
Look EG call yourself what you like it isn't hurting anyone...The passport doesn't define ethnicity only citizenship, you are Irish by birth and a Fermanagh man through sheer misfortune, but never mind. :)
Quote from: Leo on June 24, 2011, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Lazer on June 24, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Line one correct - it also applies to me.
After that, you are in dizzy denial land.
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be in the UK as so do the majority of people I know (catholic & protestant). I am not British but a lot of my neighbours prefer to consider themselves as such. In many cases their attachment to the Irish identity has been eroded by IRA sectarian atrocities inflicted on friendnds and famiy and by so called epublicans who in reality are violent nationalists (nazi for short).
I am Irish, I live in the UK. I am not British - the legal framework allows me to be this way and no amount of misty-eyed wishful thinking or indeed nazi bullying will change this.
Is Epublicanism a new online movement? :D
Quote from: Leo on June 24, 2011, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Lazer on June 24, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Line one correct - it also applies to me.
After that, you are in dizzy denial land.
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be in the UK as so do the majority of people I know (catholic & protestant). I am not British but a lot of my neighbours prefer to consider themselves as such. In many cases their attachment to the Irish identity has been eroded by IRA sectarian atrocities inflicted on friendnds and famiy and by so called epublicans who in reality are violent nationalists (nazi for short).
I am Irish, I live in the UK. I am not British - the legal framework allows me to be this way and no amount of misty-eyed wishful thinking or indeed nazi bullying will change this.
Congratulations 9 pages in a you envoke Godwins law. Lock the thread now. ::) ::) ::)
What a week on this site - one poster talks at great length about Kingsmill in the context of the US killing of around 200,000 people in their atomic bomings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (but later chastises another poster for mentioning events in Ireland in 1918 because "that has nothing to do with Kingsmill". And now we have a man who twice compares the Republican Movement with the nazi regime which wiped out 6 million Jews. One thing about anti-Republican population, they can never seem to realise that sensationalism (i.e. their first line of attack, usually followed by a few gross generalisations) just serves to show themselves up.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
I don;t think you can use a 90-year-old example to back up what you said.
Is the right of everyone in NI to call themselves "British" in a united Ireland not guaranteed by the GFA just as Irish nationality is in the status quo?
If a majority vote for British withdrawal, your 'Britishness' will go with it -- that means that it (your Britishness) cannot be immutable (however unlikely such an event might be in the present, it's still a possibility, however remote) -- it would be impossible for such an eventuality to come to pass in Britain itself, i.e., the Welsh or Scottish can never have their Britishness terminated. The 90 years is somewhat irrelevant.
You can call yourself whatever you like, IMHO, and to my mind you're as validly Irish as anyone else (there cannot be any prerequisites, except being of the Sod): Pre-Celt = Celt = Gael = Saxon Invader = Planter = Post-Planter = 100% Irish.
Glad you don't subscribe to the 'native' vs 'planter' argument when it comes to Irishness BUT I must disagree with you; 'Britishness' cannot be withdrawn from someone who has been born within the UK and, as I said, in the event of a UI, I am under the impression that people from this island will still have the legal right to their British nationality.
That would obviously be a matter for the British government -- if there is such a thing by then ?
What if Scotland or England have gone independent by then?
I presume there is no such thing as Yugoslavian citizenship or nationality any more?
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 23, 2011, 06:47:01 PM
Claiming that I am "unable to make my mind up" is like saying a Rainbow* cannot decide what colour it is.
From the sublime to the ridiculous.
Here's a better analogy. Five people are living in a green house. All independent observers can see that it's green. One of them (who used to think he owned the place and bullied all four of the others) nowadays sits in the corner and doesn't mingle with the others except for to bully the other fella he shares a room with. He thinks the house is Orange, but he also thinks it's red white and blue, he also thinks it's green, he also thinks it's yellow and he also thinks it's red. Which colour he thinks the house is depends on when you ask him. It changes constantly, sometimes in mid-sentence, sometimes it involves Clintonesque discussions about what the definition of green actually is. And he's adamant that he's not confused, while the other four boys in the house all can see the green paint in front of their very eyes. But he thinks that their certainty about what they're seeing is a sign of some sort of psychological problem whereas his muddled interpretation of what's happening in front of him is a better way to view the world. He dismisses the opinions of all independent observers who can see that the house is green.
Quote
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 23, 2011, 06:03:40 PMFor his next trick EG is going to prove that the north pole is actually the south pole and vice versa.
If I were to try to do that, I would be wrong, not "confused".
What? You'd be wrong but you wouldn't be confused? Are you sure you'd be confused but wouldn't be wrong? Or maybe confused and wrong at the same time? Or maybe the fact that you're confused would lead you to believe that you're not confused (while simultaneously being wrong) when in fact you are confused not only about the question about the poles but also about the question of whether or not you are confused about the question of the poles as well as being wrong about the question about whether or not you are confused in addition to the question of whether or not you are wrong about the question about the poles. I put it to you that the fact that you are confused about the question of the poles is making it easier for you to be simultaneously confused about the question of whether or not you are confused. Either way, you're wrong.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 23, 2011, 10:45:03 PMIf a majority vote for British withdrawal, your 'Britishness' will go with it -- that means that it (your Britishness) cannot be immutable (however unlikely such an event might be in the present, it's still a possibility, however remote) -- it would be impossible for such an eventuality to come to pass in Britain itself, i.e., the Welsh or Scottish can never have their Britishness terminated.
If by "Britishness" you mean my British Citizenship, then what have you got to say about this?
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."(The above is from the Good Friday Agreement, btw)
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 24, 2011, 10:42:01 AM
Quote from: Leo on June 24, 2011, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Lazer on June 24, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Line one correct - it also applies to me.
After that, you are in dizzy denial land.
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be in the UK as so do the majority of people I know (catholic & protestant). I am not British but a lot of my neighbours prefer to consider themselves as such. In many cases their attachment to the Irish identity has been eroded by IRA sectarian atrocities inflicted on friendnds and famiy and by so called epublicans who in reality are violent nationalists (nazi for short).
I am Irish, I live in the UK. I am not British - the legal framework allows me to be this way and no amount of misty-eyed wishful thinking or indeed nazi bullying will change this.
Congratulations 9 pages in a you envoke Godwins law. Lock the thread now. ::) ::) ::)
No arguing with that, is there?
I mean to say, how could a thread about people being lined up and massacred solely on account of their religion etc, bring to mind the Nazis? ::)
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 24, 2011, 11:11:55 AMWhat a week on this site - one poster talks at great length about Kingsmill in the context of the US killing of around 200,000 people in their atomic bomings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (but later chastises another poster for mentioning events in Ireland in 1918 because "that has nothing to do with Kingsmill".
In the context of a comment about Kingsmills by
Donagh Ulick which I posted, which was addressing the question of the "ends justifying the means etc", another poster (Rav 67) brought up the analagous example of Hiroshima, clearly seeking a reply.
At which point I expressed the opinion that Kingsmills cannot be justified on any level, whereas there is an argument (no more) for asserting that Hiroshima may actually have been justified (i.e. many fewer lives, military and civilian, were lost than if the Allies had had to occupy Japan, island by island).
Therefore I was not comparing the two events
per se; rather I was applying a single
principle to each of two situations, to illustrate a point.
Still, I can forgive you for not appreciating the distinction - doubtless you were so distressed at the thought that someone might be implying that your beloved Provos were anything less than noble patriots, heroically fighting a just war to liberate Mother Ireland etc, that you spectacularly missed the point.
Again. ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 24, 2011, 06:44:35 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 24, 2011, 11:11:55 AMWhat a week on this site - one poster talks at great length about Kingsmill in the context of the US killing of around 200,000 people in their atomic bomings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (but later chastises another poster for mentioning events in Ireland in 1918 because "that has nothing to do with Kingsmill".
In the context of a comment about Kingsmills by Donagh Ulick which I posted, which was addressing the question of the "ends justifying the means etc", another poster (Rav 67) brought up the analagous example of Hiroshima, clearly seeking a reply.
At which point I expressed the opinion that Kingsmills cannot be justified on any level, whereas there is an argument (no more) for asserting that Hiroshima may actually have been justified (i.e. many fewer lives, military and civilian, were lost than if the Allies had had to occupy Japan, island by island).
Therefore I was not comparing the two events per se; rather I was applying a single principle to each of two situations, to illustrate a point.
Still, I can forgive you for not appreciating the distinction - doubtless you were so distressed at the thought that someone might be implying that your beloved Provos were anything less than noble patriots, heroically fighting a just war to liberate Mother Ireland etc, that you spectacularly missed the point.
Again. ::)
Piss poor defence :D
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 24, 2011, 10:42:01 AM
Quote from: Leo on June 24, 2011, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Lazer on June 24, 2011, 12:57:51 AM
I'm Irish - I was born in Ireland (Co Down) and therefore I am Irish
I have held both Irish and "British" passports - doesn't make me any less Irish! British is in commas as I don't think it should be a British nationality as Britain does not actually incude NI - whereas the UK unfortunatley does!
The only permanent peace in Ireland will be a united and free Ireland!
Line one correct - it also applies to me.
After that, you are in dizzy denial land.
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be in the UK as so do the majority of people I know (catholic & protestant). I am not British but a lot of my neighbours prefer to consider themselves as such. In many cases their attachment to the Irish identity has been eroded by IRA sectarian atrocities inflicted on friendnds and famiy and by so called epublicans who in reality are violent nationalists (nazi for short).
I am Irish, I live in the UK. I am not British - the legal framework allows me to be this way and no amount of misty-eyed wishful thinking or indeed nazi bullying will change this.
Congratulations 9 pages in a you envoke Godwins law. Lock the thread now. ::) ::) ::)
+1
I think it actually states 9 pages. LOCK THE THREAD
Based on the current results 1 in 10 of those sampled are happy to identify themselves as Northern Irish. Almost as popular as homosexuality :)
Quote from: 02 on June 24, 2011, 11:19:50 PM
Based on the current results 1 in 10 of those sampled are happy to identify themselves as Northern Irish. Almost as popular as homosexuality :)
Can't beat a bit of homophobia
Quote from: 02 on June 24, 2011, 11:19:50 PM
Based on the current results 1 in 10 of those sampled are happy to identify themselves as Northern Irish. Almost as popular as homosexuality :)
"Not that there's anything wrong with it!"
Quote from: 02 on June 21, 2011, 08:49:09 PM
I was thinking about this after reading the US Open thread and how some "young people" define their nationality as Northern Irish. I don't consider myself young but I am happy to identify myself as being Northern Irish. I have a healthy dislike of both British nationality (as manifested by Loyalist/Unionists in NI) and Irish nationality (as manifested by people in the ROI who left their fellow nationalists to suffer in NI and who totally sold out to consumer culture from the early 1990s).
No one sold ye out, be Northern Irish if you like, I'm happy to be Irish and European, a Mayoman and a Connachtman.
Quote from: Cold tea on June 21, 2011, 10:49:09 PM
European - where is earthling?
My passport says European Union, yours probably does too
Great result for Linfield the night - if that fits in here.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 18, 2013, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: 02 on June 21, 2011, 08:49:09 PM
I was thinking about this after reading the US Open thread and how some "young people" define their nationality as Northern Irish. I don't consider myself young but I am happy to identify myself as being Northern Irish. I have a healthy dislike of both British nationality (as manifested by Loyalist/Unionists in NI) and Irish nationality (as manifested by people in the ROI who left their fellow nationalists to suffer in NI and who totally sold out to consumer culture from the early 1990s).
No one sold ye out, be Northern Irish if you like, I'm happy to be Irish and European, a Mayoman and a Connachtman.
MGHS, did you sit out in the sun for too long!? What possessed you to engage in such a serious case of necromancy?
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Where's EG gone these days? ::)
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Ireland might be in Europe, but I'll never consider myself a European.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Ireland might be in Europe, but I'll never consider myself a European.
I love being a European, would never want to be a Brit.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Ireland might be in Europe, but I'll never consider myself a European.
Ryder Cup?
What about it?
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 11:01:29 PM
What about it?
Bloody Europeans. Always with the questions.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Ireland might be in Europe, but I'll never consider myself a European.
So you're from Europe but you're not European? What are you then? Antarctican?
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 11:01:29 PM
What about it?
I thought it was fairly obvious - Do you consider yourself to be European / support Europe if you are watching the Ryder Cup?
Bit of a silly poll to put up on a GAA forum.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2013, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
What the feck is European doing on this poll? I'd be more offended being called European than British.
Why ????
Are you a Yank or what? If you're from Ireland you're European --- like if you're from India you're Asian.
Ireland might be in Europe, but I'll never consider myself a European.
Ireland is off the coast of Europe. Put that in yer pipe and shmoke it!
Quote from: michaelg on July 19, 2013, 07:53:19 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 18, 2013, 11:01:29 PM
What about it?
I thought it was fairly obvious - Do you consider yourself to be European / support Europe if you are watching the Ryder Cup?
I don't watch the Ryder Cup.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 19, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
Ireland is off the coast of Europe. Put that in yer pipe and shmoke it!
It's not in mainland Europe, but it's still in Europe.